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Rekmar
31-01-2007, 13:39
Next week I'll be playing a 2300pt game with my High Elves against the new Empire rules.

After several attempts to decide on an army list for my HE, I can't come up with a list that I'm happy with (I'll try to post a couple of the army lists later when I get home from work) so I am looking for advice on the following:-

1) If you were the HE player what would you field (I can field at least 1 unit of everything in the HE book)?
Note: The last game my opponent played that I watched some of he had a 7 dice dispel pool, two units of knights (not sure what type), a cannon and two mortars, a large block of swordsmen and halbrediers and some 10 man units with handguns and crossbows. There was probably more than this to the army but this is what I can remember...

2) An idea of the tactics that you would use with the HE against the new Empire?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers
Rekmar

505
01-02-2007, 01:58
rain lord spell is a good choice.
bolt throwers for his knights or large blocks of infantry.

of course this you already probibly know and I don't have teh new empire book so...

Makarion
01-02-2007, 02:19
If I were the Empire player, and had a free choice of units, I might bring 2-3 cannon, since they are the best anti-Dragon weapon the Empire has, and that monster can truely wreak havoc to Ld7. Of course, at 2,300 points, a Dragon is perhaps a bit ambitious, but cannon aren't a bad thing anyway, against a wide variety of units and characters.

Also, I would expect the High Elf player to bring a Lord-level wizard with a lvl 2 assistant, Silverhelms, and spearmen. As a result, I would try and field 2*6 knights, 1*6 pistoliers, and a fairly chunky block of outriders (maybe 8). Maybe an Arch Lector as a general, a scroll caddy and a warrior priest for a block of swordsmen with halberd/crossbow detachments. That should leave just about enough points for 20 handguns.

Of course, this is just eyeballing things, and if your opponent is used to you, he may well know what you will or won't use. For instance, if you are known to never use Shadow Warriors, your opponent might forego the pistoliers for more outriders or knights, and if you are known to rarely use flyers but to field plenty of cavalry, he could well skip the heavy emphasis on ranged troops for a second melee block with a BSB.

Whatever the case, as the Empire player I would make sure my magic defence was tight, and to field a fair amount of S4 shooting, given how the Elves have T3 and mediocre armour, in general.
Empire doesn't have any flyers other than a pegasus for heroes or a gryphon for a lord-level general, so his war machine hunting will have problems if you protect your flanks.

Rekmar
01-02-2007, 09:07
Cheers guys. Couldn't log on last night as BT managed to take down the local telephone exchange....

Anyway, I'd thought of a dragon, but this left me with not a lot of anything else. Currently thinking that 10 archers, 2 RBT, 2 units of six Sliver Helms, a block of Spearmen, 5 Reavers is the core of what I'll be using supported by an Archmage, two mages and commander on an eagle might be the way forward. Think that this leaves me with about 400 to 500 pts left with the choice of swordmasters, P. Guard and Lion boys to choose from. Any ideas?

Tutore
01-02-2007, 10:03
Honestly, I cannot imagine a valid list against the new empire. I also play High Elves. I thought and thought but didnīt find out a good solution. Perhaps a cheesy magic list, but then thereīs the hochland rifle. Perhaps counting on bows, but bows normally cause only a few casualties. Perhaps thereīs no solution :)

Rekmar
01-02-2007, 10:39
Now actually wondering if it's worth having Prince instead of the Archmage and do the whole swordmaster, Armour of the Gods and great weapon bit

DeathlessDraich
01-02-2007, 11:04
I play Empire and against it quite often. When facing HE, I will be wary of:

1) Bolt throwers - 4 of them can devastate a Cannon or two in 1 turn
2) Seer Honour combined with the right lore/spell. In this case Pit of Shades against the War Altar. Uranon's thunderbolt against cavalry. Rain Lord against shooting
3) Long bows - longer range than Empire shooters with its move and shoot.
4) Faster cavalry
5) Stronger defensive infantry - HE Spearmen
6) Hero in a chariot with a Reaver bow - a thorn that won't go away

If you have all these elements, you can wreak havoc! I would strongly suggest Scouts as well.

Mephistofeles
01-02-2007, 18:27
If he has 7 dispel dice, don't take a lot of magic, you will stand no chance to get through that, even with a level 4 and a level 2. You would need a level 4, two level 2 and some bound spell to be sure to get even 1-2 spells through.

I would go for full frontal assault, supported by bolt throwers. I would take 4 bolt throwers, maybe 10-20 archers and the rest at close combat troops. If your opponent has offensive magic on his own, take a scroll caddie or even two.

If he uses detachments, kill those before you enter combat. Always kill the detachments!

Prince Sairion
02-02-2007, 10:06
4 Bolt Throwers!!!??? Are you serious??? What a s*** game of warhammer that would result in!

I played Empire and won recently with one BT.
List was:
- Archmage (on metal with 5 spells)
- Level 2 (metal)
- BSB
- Commander
- 2x20 spears
- 2x5 Silver Helms
- 7 Dragon Princes
- 15 White Lions
- 10 Swordmasters
- 14 Archers
- The Bolt Thrower

Both rings on the characters, feel free to play them first to bring out dispel dice. Spirit of the forge worked nicely on his STANK.

The only idiotic thing I did to restrict the victory was have the AM in the swordmasters unit and end up with him in the opposing deployment zone, but hey, he was on tour!!

Rekmar
02-02-2007, 10:34
- Archmage (on metal with 5 spells)
- Level 2 (metal)
- BSB
- Commander
- 2x20 spears
- 2x5 Silver Helms
- 7 Dragon Princes
- 15 White Lions
- 10 Swordmasters
- 14 Archers
- The Bolt Thrower


Quite like this list. Guessing that it was about 2000pts? The only thing that I'd query with this is the 10 swordmasters, then again if your where playing 2000pts then it makes sense. Think that I'm going to go with something similar but will probably play 2 RBT (as I expect to face some cannon wielding ogres...) and up the number of swordmasters a bit.

The game is on Wednesday next week, so if anyone else has more advice I'd appreciate it.

On a quick aside, I played a 2000pt game last night against a DoW army that had seemed to be fielding most of the RoR. Won it off the back of 2 RBTS and a nice flanking move with a unit of six Sliver Helms that contained a lvl 2 wizard with fire magic and the Ring of Fury. Only unit that he had that I had trouble dealing with was Tichi Hitchi...

Mephistofeles
02-02-2007, 10:38
4 Bolt Throwers!!!??? Are you serious??? What a s*** game of warhammer that would result in!

Yup, absolutely correct. I am serious, although I don't think I would ever use it myself. Then again, against two units of empire knights and two cannons with a lot of magical defense, I would consider it, which is why I proposed it.

eleveninches
02-02-2007, 10:52
Against empire, you will expect the enemy to field at least one (and probably 2 or more) expensive units of cavalry.

An excellecnt tactic i almost always use when playing HE against such an army is to have a prince with the bow of the seafarer on an eagle. Maybe give him an enchanted shield or helm of fortune as well for extra protection.
Then, you can use the eagle to fly him to be at the side of the cavlary unit, and shoot the bow of the seafarer down their rank. This can wipe out an entire rank of heavy cavalry, and then you move on to the next one next turn, and since you are flying, it is difficult for the enemy to pin you down. Whenever i've used this tactic, the prince has more than made up for his points cost.

Decide what type of enemy you expect to be facing and pick your HE list accordingly. I usually have either all-cavalry (which doesnt work as well, despite the silver helms as troops choices and cheap chariots and eagles), or an all-infantry army (with lots of spearmen and swordmasters and white lions.

Here are my suggestions:

But empire has a lot of troops, a lot of artillary and a few heavy cavalry.

I suggest taking the prince as i described above (for destroying the cavalry)
Then also take a commander with foe bane and helm of fortune (for causing damage to any enemy commander that comes near)
Spearmen are underrated and can be effective at 20 models including standard bearer and champion, so have 1 or 2 such units.
Take one (or maybe 2) 5-6 strong silver helms for flanking the enemy (no movement penalty for barding)

2 chariots (join the silver helms or smash into enemy infantry)
20 Swordmasters (solid core behind/between the spearmen)
15 shadow warriors (take out the artillary crew and other missile units)

Rare options are difficult to choose from for HE, but considering the enemy, it would probably be wise to take :
2 eagles (for crashing infantry with the chariots or to take out missile units and artillary crew)
either a bolt thrower (good against mass-infantry) or some white lions (great weapons and good save vs missiles).

Rekmar
02-02-2007, 14:00
Have to say I'd never thought of mounting a Prince on an eagle and then using the Seafarer Bow... hmmmm. Another write of the army list tonight then and I'll post it in the tactics section later on whilst the wife is watching emmerdale, coronation street, eastenders etc etc etc etc etc.

DeathlessDraich
02-02-2007, 14:42
4 Bolt Throwers!!!??? Are you serious??? What a s*** game of warhammer that would result in!

I played Empire and won recently with one BT. All part of Warhammer!


If 1 Bolt thrower can destroy 200pts of Empire than 4 Bolt throwers will destroy it in a quarter of the time! **


Yup, absolutely correct. I am serious, although I don't think I would ever use it myself. Then again, against two units of empire knights and two cannons with a lot of magical defense, I would consider it, which is why I proposed it.

Ever faced 8 Bolt throwers? - Orcs vs Ogres. Ogre Tyrant killed in 1st round with 2 Bolts that wounded.

Mephistofeles
02-02-2007, 17:56
No I have never faced that many, and I would feel that it was just as terrible as any gunline...

eleveninches
02-02-2007, 21:10
4 bolt throwers takes up 400 points and is unlikely to gain those points back in kills. One is enough for that points cost, and you are overlooking the other great HE rare choices. Try taking eagles, they are decent against most units and since they can fly they can attack just about any unit you want.

Here is a suggested army list for your 2300 point battle:
HEROES AND LORDS:
271 points: Prince (great eagle, bow of the seafarer, heavy armour, dragonscale shield, talisman of protection , pure of heart, army general)
126 points: Commander (foe bane, helm of fortune, dragon armour)

CORE:
120 points: 10 Archers
294 points: 24 Spearmen (full command)
294 points: 24 Spearmen (full command)
173 points: 6 Silver Helms (shields, heavy armour, full command)


SPECIAL:
201 points: 6 Dragon Princes (full command)
310 points: 20 Swordmasters (full command, war banner)
150 points: 15 Shadow Warriors
170 points: 2 Tiranoc Chariots

RARE:
100 points: Bolt Thrower
100 points: 2 Great Eagles
-------
2307


Prince for taking care of enemy cavalry with his bow of the seafarer. 2+ armour save or 2 6+ ward saves to keep him alive.
Commander to have on foot with the infantry, tempting the enemy general to come near and then wounding (if not killing him) him with foe bane. 4+ (re-roll) armour save

2 huge Spearmen units for holding the line against enemy assaults. Fight in 3 ranks, with full +3 rank bonus even after the first few casualties are taken from them. Use them to hold the centreground with the swordmasters. Deploy them at each side of the swordmasters but a couple of inches in front of them.
Silver helms and dragon knights for flanking and outmanuvering the enemy. Maybe keep one (or both) of these in reserve until your enemy charges, then hit him in the side with the cavalry and the front with the spearmen.
Archers are always a good way to top off any army list, and are likely to cause a few wounds to the enemy, and maybe even distract some of their troops away from the centreground.

Big swordmasters unit to hold in the centre, should deal some serious damage to any enemies that have gotten into combat with the spearmen by charging into the same combat.
A large shadow warriors unit to take out enemy artillary crew, and (if they survive long enough), to take out enemy missile units.
2 relatively cheap chariots for bombing into the enemy infantry. Might or might not be best kept in reserve for when the enemy charges your spearmen.

Eagles for taking out enemy artillary crew and other enemy infantry. They are really wasted on that though, and are decent against high-T opponants, though there are not many of them in empire armies. If you really want, you could replace them both with another bolt-thrower. Depends on what you feel like using.
Bolt throwers are always good, but they are really expensive. I doubt that you would need more than one or 2, since your prince will be taking are of the enemy cavalry.
http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/7200/hetacbx6.png (http://imageshack.us)

Prince Sairion
03-02-2007, 18:07
Chariots against the empire do NOT work. If they withstand the cannons and the s5 helblaster and the s4 armour piercing handgunners, then they get stuck against a unit that will more than likely have been made unbreakable by a warrior priest. No magic defence in that list either.

Eagles work great, but the guy I play against uses a certain orb which reduces them to waddling at 4" a turn. Not so good.

15 shadow warriors, 225 points, t3, against all the shooting the empire has, again, not up to the task. Against Empire IMO the only special troops worth their points are DP's, Swordmasters (just - only 5+armour) and reavers.

The prince will suffer a similar fate to the chariots.

The HE cannot withstand a march across the table to the empire without speed and bulk. I don't mean to rip apart your list, but in my experience these things just don't work, maybe it's just the way I pay them?

Von Wibble
03-02-2007, 20:50
He uses orb of thunder against the best magic defense in the game??


I play high elves and empire. I think Empire are definately the stronger of teh 2 in a direct fight.

I would go with dragon princes (sacred incense on accompanying character) with banner of ellyrion. They can then end up in the position that they will only be targetted for 1 turn by shooting.

Eagles are very useful - they can stop war machines (might even get lucky and kill them!) and charge detachments whilst you throw your main units into his own, thus negating them.

Tbh I wouldn't overrate empire shooting. You can use your speed and target overload to ensure that most of your army gets through. If your DP charge in at teh same time as eagles negating detachments/ war machines (plenty of options with 4 of them), and you also have cheap silver helms and 2 chariots, with careful chouice of tergets you can nail his shooting either by charging it directly (even handgunners usually only hit on 5s - you are looking at 1 casualty from stand and shoot on armoured troops) or overrunnning into it.

The key to beating empire is to get 1 large unit to run. Panic will then cause another 2 to go off the table. Do this in turn 2 and then with shooting tied up your spearmen (your other infantry is too expensive and spearmen have good killing power vs T3) should mop up

A lot of conditionals and some luck required. But I haven't mentioned strong high elf magic or reaver bow - the latter has a fair chance of causing a panic check per turn.

Rekmar
05-02-2007, 15:12
Thanks for the all the advice guys. Still haven't finalised my list, as I went to post it at the weekend and then realised that I'd left it at work. I'll do it tonight and link it to the discussion here.

Rekmar
05-02-2007, 22:19
The army list is here. (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1274302#post1274302)

Please feel free to comment and I'm still looking for tactic ideas!

Cheers
Rekmar

Rekmar
08-02-2007, 10:49
Quick message of thanks to everyone who gave me advice. I had lost by turn 3 due to, in no small part

a) deploying my army like a complete chump
b) My opponent's Hellstrom Rocket battery wiping out (virtually) my unit of swordmasters and the unit of spearmen in the first two turns.
c) His mortars blowing chunks out of everything else...

It was a great game, even though I lost and I just wanted to say thanks, once more, for all the advice I received!