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T10
31-01-2007, 17:45
Ok, a unit of Spirit Hosts loses combat by 3 points. They are within 12" of the Battle Standard Bearer.

Do they lose...

* 2 Wounds for being Undead
* 3 Wounds for being a Swarm
* 5 Wounds for being an Undead Swarm

-T10

Wings of Doom
31-01-2007, 17:52
Look under the rules for Unbreakable Swarms in the BRB. It specifically states that Swarms with special rules concerning combat resolution use those instead of the Unbreakable Swarm Rules- so the unit of Spirit Hosts would lose two wounds for being Undead, and nothing else.

Atrahasis
31-01-2007, 17:53
Don't have a VC book to hand, but I don't think Spirit Hosts are Unbreakable, are they?

In which case the rules under Unbreakable in the rulebook can hardly apply can they?

Gorbad Ironclaw
31-01-2007, 18:00
Correct. The rules for unbreakable swarms in the rulebook doesn't apply to Spirit hosts because they are not unbreakable.

They only apply to batswams(and rendering them pretty much worthless in comparison).

loveless
31-01-2007, 18:01
Well...that's the issue, Atrahasis

The rules for Unbreakable Swarms make reference to Undead and Daemonic Swarms, stating that neither are Unbreakable, using the Undead and Daemonic rules instead.

However, it also states that all swarms take excess wounds from losing combat. It makes no distinction between Unbreakable Swarms, Daemonic Swarms, and Undead Swarms in that ruling.

I feel the intent was to do away with the excess wound rule for Undead and Daemonic swarms, using Undead and Daemonic Instability. Though, RAW (I hate RAW), places both rules on Undead and Daemonic Swarms.

It's likely supposed to be 2 wounds on the Spirit Hosts.
RAW, it's 5.

Warhammer Rulebook - Page 53

Atrahasis
31-01-2007, 18:08
I can see the problem now. By trying to clarify Undead and Dameons they've created a problem which would not have existed had they simply kept their traps shut.

I take that final paragraph to mean "Note that Undead and Daemons aren't unbreakable, so this rule doesn't apply", rather than "although not unbreakable, Undead and Daemons still follow the rules for Unbreakable swarms".

Wings of Doom
31-01-2007, 18:58
It doesn't matter whether Spirit Hosts are classified in their rules as unbreakable or not- if you actually read the passage on page fifty-three of your rule book:


"Units classified as swarms... are unbreakable"

So, they follow the rules under the unbreakable section as normal, except:


"Swarms that are subject to special combat result rules... do not have the unbreakable rule, but use their army's own special rules instead"

So specific examples (eg, anything that has its own specified rules, such as Undead) uses these in preferance to the Unbreakable Swarms rule, making them an Exception. As they aren't Unbreakable Swarms (not being unbreakable) they are exunt from the Unbreakable Swarms rule.
So (in chronological order of logic):


They are a Swarm,
They are Unbreakable, and follow the rules for Unbreakable Swarms,
They are exunt to these rules due to haing their own rules for combat result.

DeathlessDraich
31-01-2007, 19:07
I think it is 2 Wounds because:

1) All Swarms are Unbreakable
pg 53 "They (Swarms) are an unthinking mass ... and are consequently Unbreakable"

2) Undead Swarms follow Undead rules
"...swarms subject to special combat rules ...like Undead do not have the Unbreakable rule but use their own rules"

3) Undead BSB reduces the number crumbling by 1.

Gorbad Ironclaw
31-01-2007, 19:15
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but spirit hosts isn't even considered swarms by the rules...

DeathlessDraich
31-01-2007, 19:21
It says 'Swarm' under Spirit Hosts.

Fox
02-02-2007, 16:31
I think "Special Rules"(such as undead rules) will cover "Basic Rules"(Rule Book) ,so it's 2 wounds.

asrian
02-02-2007, 21:22
I think GW just keeps making the games worse by trying to oversimplify everything and having lousy editors. But that's just me. *grumbles*

Avian
04-02-2007, 12:19
I think it is 2 Wounds because:

1) All Swarms are Unbreakable
All swarms certainly are not unbreakable. Snotlings, for example, are merely Stubborn.

The Unbreakable Swarms section only applies to Unbreakable Swarms, in the same manner as the Characters section only applies to characters. P. 53 even states:
"Note that swarms that are subject to special combat result rules (...) do not have the Unbreakable rule,..."




They are a Swarm,
They are Unbreakable, and follow the rules for Unbreakable Swarms,
They are exunt to these rules due to haing their own rules for combat result.

Actually, the logical step is:

They are a Swarm,
They are Undead and therefore NOT Unbreakable.
Ergo the Unbreakable Swarms rule does not apply to them.

DeathlessDraich
04-02-2007, 12:41
All swarms certainly are not unbreakable. Snotlings, for example, are merely Stubborn.

The Unbreakable Swarms section only applies to Unbreakable Swarms, in the same manner as the Characters section only applies to characters. P. 53 even states:
"Note that swarms that are subject to special combat result rules (...) do not have the Unbreakable rule,..."



1) Snotlings are not classified as Swarms.

2) The rules state:
"Units classed as Swarms in their special rules ... are consequently Unbreakable"

I fail to see why that does not mean all Swarms are Unbreakable. It does not state "Units classed as'Unbreakable Swarms' are...etc"

3) The part you've quoted if read in context refers to "Swarms subject to special combat result rules (like Undead etc". i.e. CR resolution rules which are different from the main rulebook

Avian
04-02-2007, 12:50
I'm not sure I understand you. The rule actually states that it is possible to have Swarms that do not have the Unbreakable rule, and then mentions examples of this. Thus being a Swarm cannot automatically mean that you are Unbreakable.

Tutore
04-02-2007, 13:26
Anyway undead swarms, which were already perhaps the best ones under the swarms, with perhaps the exception of the venomous ones, are now the only ones which aren't senseless. I mean, TK swarms have the ability to dig, and they are that cheap.

EvC
04-02-2007, 14:43
Seems to be a needless discussion here about the Unbreakable part. For a start the Spirit Hosts are essentially Unbreakable- they follow the rules described for Unbreakable units (i.e. they can't be broken) even if the term is never used in the Vampire rulebook. But that's not the point, as the rules for the Battle Standard simply state that "Undead that are within 12" of their Battle Standard suffer one less wound than they normally would when defeated in combat"... there's no qualifier that a Spirit Host Swarm need to be Unbreakable or anything in order to be aided as normal by the Battle Standard!

TheDarkDaff
05-02-2007, 08:05
However, it also states that all swarms take excess wounds from losing combat. It makes no distinction between Unbreakable Swarms, Daemonic Swarms, and Undead Swarms in that ruling.


Theonly problem with this is that it mentions the swarms take extra wounds under the rules for unbreakable swarms. What you are saying is like me using the shooting to hit chart in hth combat. It still says my DE Highborn hits on a 2+ but it is in the wrong section.

DeathlessDraich
05-02-2007, 08:57
I'm not sure I understand you. The rule actually states that it is possible to have Swarms that do not have the Unbreakable rule, and then mentions examples of this. Thus being a Swarm cannot automatically mean that you are Unbreakable.



Seems to be a needless discussion here about the Unbreakable part. For a start the Spirit Hosts are essentially Unbreakable- they follow the rules described for Unbreakable units (i.e. they can't be broken) even if the term is never used in the Vampire rulebook. But that's not the point, as the rules for the Battle Standard simply state that "Undead that are within 12" of their Battle Standard suffer one less wound than they normally would when defeated in combat"... there's no qualifier that a Spirit Host Swarm need to be Unbreakable or anything in order to be aided as normal by the Battle Standard!

Technically speaking they are not Unbreakable but Undead. I do understand what you mean - Unbreakable as cannot be 'broken' and not in the exact sense of the rulebook.
However the question Avian and I are discussing is:

Are all Swarms Unbreakable? This is very relevant to this thread. **


Theonly problem with this is that it mentions the swarms take extra wounds under the rules for unbreakable swarms. What you are saying is like me using the shooting to hit chart in hth combat. It still says my DE Highborn hits on a 2+ but it is in the wrong section.

I think the rules deal with the Undead Swarm adequately. It's the second sentence and the title Unbreakable Swarms which might create some ambiguity.

** Rat Swarms, Jungle Swarms are classified as Unbreakable. The only Swarms which are not Unbreakable are Nurglings but Undead and Daemonic Swarms have their own rules.
So there won't be a problem with applying the rule.

Avian:
Your view is based on the title Unbreakable Swarms. Therefore I think you're saying that all references to Swarms in that section alludes to Unbreakable Swarms. This is one interpretation.

My interpretation is based on the second sentence "swarms ... and are consequently Unbreakable". Swarms are Unbreakable. I see the title as simply reinforcing this. The exceptions come later:

The last paragraph:
"swarms who are subject to special combat result rules". I place more emphasis on the word 'result'. This is the main way in which this type of Swarm is to be distinguished.
The sentence follows
"...do not have the Unbreakable rule".

I interpret this as any swarm which resolves its combat in a special way will not be Unbreakable.
Other than Daemonic and Undead CR rules, I can't think of other CR which does not follow the normal rules but if there is than that Swarm would be an exception as well.
Therefore except for the exceptions mentioned, all Swarms are Unbreakable.

NakedFisherman
05-02-2007, 13:08
All Swarms aren't Unbreakable. Before the release of the new O&G book, I believe Snotlings were 'Swarms'.

This thread made me realize how odd the word swarms sounds. Say it a few times out loud. Doesn't it sound odd?

T10
05-02-2007, 13:15
Snotlings were never Swarms as such. They were simply very weak infantry on very large bases.

-T10

Cragspyder
05-02-2007, 18:26
I just don't think that it would be intended for a Undead Swarm to take double the wounds from a close combat loss, especially considering that swarms are kind of made to lose combat but hold up other units for a flank charge.

Does it make much sense to you that swarms of undead critters would be TWICE as vulnerable to damage as living ones?

I figure since they are undead, they effectively count as unbreakable since they are undead (and therefore never have to take normal leadership tests at all, unless you count a dead Hierophant as normal), but aren't actually unbreakable. IE. Normal swarms are unbreakable, undead swarms are undead, and are therefore not 'unbreakable swarms', even though being undead means that they are unbreakable anyways.