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Morghat
01-02-2007, 10:14
Hello,

I have one question what i did not find in rulebook
Situatsion is this: Minotaurs (US9) unit charge HE bowmen (US10) unit and HE bowmen unit will choose stand and shoot as charge reaction, HE must take fear test. HE unit failed fear test. What now can they make stand and shoot or not and if they can do they make it as normal stand and shoot rules.
I checked in rulebook stand and shoot section and fear section and i did not found nothing.

Tnx

DeathlessDraich
01-02-2007, 10:23
The HE unit has a higher US and can therefore Stand & Shoot.

Morghat
01-02-2007, 10:30
The HE unit has a higher US and can therefore Stand & Shoot.
ok and then in HtH combat they will hit only with 6-s like normal fear rule
is this right?

Suicidal-Rabbit
01-02-2007, 10:31
Seeing as they don't run they should be able to stand and shoot normally I believe


ok and then in HtH combat they will hit only with 6-s like normal fear rule
is this right?

yup

DeathlessDraich
01-02-2007, 10:49
Hello and welcome Suicidal Rabbit.

Suicidal-Rabbit
01-02-2007, 11:11
Hello ! thanks for the welcome :) glad I could help/confirm ^^

EvC
01-02-2007, 12:00
Hello,

I have one question what i did not find in rulebook
Situatsion is this: Minotaurs (US9) unit charge HE bowmen (US10) unit and HE bowmen unit will choose stand and shoot as charge reaction, HE must take fear test. HE unit failed fear test. What now can they make stand and shoot or not and if they can do they make it as normal stand and shoot rules.
I checked in rulebook stand and shoot section and fear section and i did not found nothing.

It says that if you fail your fear test after being charged by an outnumbering fear-causing enemy, you will change your charge reaction to Flee (From Stand and Shoot, in this case). So you're free to stand and shoot if you fai lyour fear test here.

Atrahasis
01-02-2007, 12:17
Your stand and shoot reaction is resolved before the chargers are determined to be in range, and therefore before you even take the fear test.

DeathlessDraich
01-02-2007, 15:45
I'm not sure that's right Atrahasis. I think Stand and Shoot is resolved at the very start of the Move Chargers sub-phase.

Atrahasis
01-02-2007, 15:56
"Remember to resolve any stand and shoot reaction that has been declared against the chargers at this stage, before measuring if the chargers have made it into contact" Rulebook, page 20.

I'm aware the FAQ recently moved fear tests from "Move Chargers" to the "Declare Chargers" sub-phase, but I think that in attempting to fix one mess GW have created another, bigger one.

If someone insists that S&S is now taken after all fear/terror tests then it would be difficult to argue, but I don't think whoever wrote that particular answer realises what they have done.

DeathlessDraich
01-02-2007, 16:30
Sequence -
1) Declare charge
2) Charge response - S&S
3) Resolve S&S
4) Measure distance
5) a)Change S&S reaction to hold if chargers are too close
b) Fear test if charge is within range

5 (a) is impossible! if (3) has already occured

:confused:

Atrahasis
01-02-2007, 16:45
The sequence as the rulebook (ignoring errata) has it:

1) Declare all charges
2) Declare all responses
3) Measure for frenzy and declare appropriate charges
4) Declare responses to frenzy
5) Rally
6) Compulsory Movement
7) Resolve S&S
8) Measure
9) Test for fear/terror
10) move chargers.

This sequence doesn't allow anyone failing their psychology test to flee as all fleeing is done in compulsory moves, so GW tried to fix that by moving steps 8&9 thus:

1) Declare all charges
2) Declare all responses
3) Measure for frenzy and declare appropriate charges
4) Declare responses to frenzy
8) Measure
9) Test for fear/terror
5) Rally
6) Compulsory Movement
7) Resolve S&S
10) move chargers.

The rulebook-only method doesn't work, because it doesn't allow scaredy-cats to run away. The rules don't tell us expressly when to measure to see if S&S is possible, but it is possible to measure at point 7 for the appropriate units without disrupting anything.
The "fixed" version changes when fear and terror tests are taken, and fundamentally alters the utility of S&S as a reaction against fear causers. I don't think that was considered. The rulebook is very clear that S&S should be before Fear and Terror (it even uses an exclamation mark!), and the FAQ turns that on its head.

The rules for Charges and responses are a mess, and its a real shame because its such an important part of gameplay.

In my opinion, GW would have done better to simply answer the FAQ by introuducing a second wave of compulsory movement as a subphase during Move chargers, to allow units fleeing due to psychology to flee and not be guaranteed destruction.

intellectawe
02-02-2007, 02:55
Wait, so now, you can fail a terror test, and run. Then, if you fail your Rally, you must run a second time in the same turn?

Wow.... I think Terror causing units just got stronger.

Grudgebringer88
03-02-2007, 22:18
Wait, so now, you can fail a terror test, and run. Then, if you fail your Rally, you must run a second time in the same turn?

Wow.... I think Terror causing units just got stronger.

Well, I believe that if you fail your terror test you wouldn't actually make your flee movement until the compulsory movement phase. Therefore, you would not get an attempt to rally that same turn because your unit hasn't actually fled yet.

greenskin
04-02-2007, 00:04
You cannot rally a unit that was caused to flee that same turn.

Palatine Katinka
04-02-2007, 05:05
The sequence as the rulebook (ignoring errata) has it:

1) Declare all charges
2) Declare all responses
3) Measure for frenzy and declare appropriate charges
4) Declare responses to frenzy
5) Rally
6) Compulsory Movement
7) Resolve S&S
8) Measure
9) Test for fear/terror
10) move chargers.

My interpretation was slightly different. Steps 7,8,9 and 10 all come under "Move Chargers". The rules for "Stand and Shoot" even say it is done in the "move chargers part of the movement phase."
So... to break down the "move chargers" sub-phase, pick the charge to deal with first, measure the range between the units. From this single measurement we can tell whether or not "Stand and Shoot" is possible (are chargers to close?), whether or not Fear/Terror tests are required and whether or not the chargers can reach the target unit. The target fires as soon as the chargers are within range. This may actually be during the charge move with short ranged weapons such as pistols and thrown weapons.
When it comes to Fear/Terror tests, your charge reaction may be changed to "Flee!" which means you can't "Stand and Shoot".
If the Fear causer doesn't out number you, your charge reaction is not affected and you fight as normal except for needing 6's to hit in the first round of combat.

Atrahasis
05-02-2007, 16:25
This may actually be during the charge move with short ranged weapons such as pistols and thrown weapons.
When it comes to Fear/Terror tests, your charge reaction may be changed to "Flee!" which means you can't "Stand and Shoot". Yes, but the rules in the book are quite clear that S&S is done before determining if the charge is in range, and psychology tests are taken after.

ghoust
29-10-2008, 22:51
Sorry for double posting, but has there been a clear answere to this problem?
There is a hint at the FAQ somewhere down the thread which should clarify this, which FAQ is meant? The GW one? Sorry for double posts..

ghoust
29-10-2008, 23:02
ok, found it in the GW FAQ that fear/terror test catches in before making reactions