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IronNerd
01-02-2007, 20:07
I keep fighting with myself over how exactly I want to finish out my O&G army. I personally see no point in shelling out for the elite guys (Black Orcs). I'm still quite new to Fantasy, and thus also new to O&G, so maybe there's something I'm missing. My main opponents are empire and dwarves, so I face some shooting. I find it hard to justify paying more than double for a BO than a normal one. Can someone help me discover how elite infantry work in an otherwise horde army?

sephiroth87
02-02-2007, 00:10
Well, for starters, Black Orcs used to be a LOT better in the previous edition. Both black orcs and black orc characters kept your whole army from running away, if I remember right.

Now that they have less to do with keeping your horde in place, you're left with deciding whether their fighting ability versus other orcs is enough reason to take them. Personally, I don't. I think most elite infantry is a waste of points and I only take them if I like how they look.

In my orc army, my elite infantry IS bog-standard orcs with choppas. I think they're already pretty good and they don't need to be black orcs to do the job.

If you wanted to take the black orcs, you probably can find a spot for them in the middle of the line. They're reliable and they kill stuff, which their strong point.

IronNerd
02-02-2007, 01:52
I guess I didn't have my heart set on taking any. I'm just curious as to how people make it work. Do most of you not play against non-shooty armies? I'm also beginning to dislike my chariots as they always die to cannons. Anywho, I do like the general idea of Black Orcs, just probably won't use any. What's the consensus elsewhere?

sulla
02-02-2007, 03:48
Well, in your horde, you do have a fair amount of choices to protect them... first there is counter battery artillery fire of your own; doom divers for example. Or what about screening them from unfavourable charges (and from ground level shooting too), or using your faster elements as war machine hunters; wolf riders with a goblin shaman/boss should be able to do this ok and they are cheap. Also, not putting too many eggs in one basket... Black Orcs are good enough you can happily put your characters in other units to bolster them. Black orcs seem to be very good at holding up one flank of the infantry horde to me...impossible for fast cav to dent and scary for even heavy cav to charge.

Sure they are good points for your enemy if they shoot/magic them but that is your job as the general, either provide so many priority targets that you overwhelm your opponent, protect them with cheap screens or take out the threats early.

Tutore
02-02-2007, 07:25
In 2000 points IŽll create a unit of 20 black orcs, although I suppose 2 units of boyz would be better for the same cost. I still think they can break enemy in the first turn of combat.

blurred
02-02-2007, 09:07
My army is very much like Sephiroth's in the sense that my "elite" infantry are the basic orc boyz. They're tough and hit decently in CC. I've played with the idea of having a unit of 12 (6*2) black orcs with a musician. They are very hitty with great weapons or two hand weapons and Waaagh! automatically so they would be perfect for counter-charging. However, I have a shortage of special slots so they probably won't make it to the field very often.

Mephistofeles
02-02-2007, 09:40
I'll admit I don't play O&G but Empire, but since it's nevertheless a horde, I'll try to give my point of view.

I have a huge army, with rather few characters and not so much shooting. This means I have at least 5 blocks of fighting units, and with those, I like to take at least one "elite" regiment.

In my army this is usually Greatswords, since they have the two things a Horde needs in terms of backup:

1: They don't run away
2: They hit hard

That's as far as I'm concerned the two most important things that elites contribute to a horde, and Blorks fullfill the same roles. They are much less likely to run away than a unit of normal orcs or goblins, especialy with a bsb, and they hit A LOT harder.

I say go for it, if you have the points.

eleveninches
02-02-2007, 10:27
For my HE all-infantry army, i usually have over 130 infantry, so i guess that counts as a horde army. The swordmasters and white lions deploy behind/between the spearmen in a kind of chequered formation. That means that whenever my line is charged, i only need to move my units a small distance to have most assaulting units surrounded on 3 sides by my infantry. I think it's what the romans often did with their infantry, but i dont know the name for this tactic.

IronNerd
02-02-2007, 16:11
I think I might be a little new to Fantasy to understand how to effectively screen. As far as I can tell, putting other units in front of your elites only blocks the charge for your elites. Maybe time will make me understand the elite infantry roll...

Mazdug
02-02-2007, 17:50
The best thing about black orcs is that they don't squabble and always waaaagh, making them the single most reliable thing in your army. This means that when the chaos player charges say, a unit of goblins, that runs like hell, and they end up right infront of your nice chunky unit of black orcs, you NEVER have to worry about rolling a 1 at the start of your turn and having them stand around baching their heads together and arguing who is da toughest, and instead get to run a unit of angry metal clad greenies with enormous can openers into the now doomed unit of knights.

MarcoPollo
02-02-2007, 22:33
With Regards to screening problems.

You are correct, most screens prevent you from charging through them, except Kroxigor/skinks. This is what causes elites to have problems. They cost so much that you really have to allow for atleast one round of shooting at them even if you do screen them. Things like canon balls can be really tough on those elites.

The best way to screen is to use some sort of skirmish screen if you can. I don't play O&G so don't know if they have skirmishers. Otherwise you could use a long thin line to stop those bolt throwers from hitting hard, but that can be unwieldly.

Protect all your pieces with your skirmish line and once you are in range of charging, open them up. Your opponent will have too many options as to what to hit. Then it is in for the kill.

I have a horde chaos army. But I need to make sure my elites are fast. So no footslogging elites. Foot sloggers are horde types for me (beastmen and marauders), while my elites wait for their opportunities to present themselves and are fast enough to get stuck in.

IronNerd
03-02-2007, 08:18
Using skirmisher screens could be decent. If only our skirmishers were reliable. I love 'em to death, but sometimes they bounce 14", sometimes they bounce 3". In my case, tends to be 3 more often than 14.

zak
03-02-2007, 19:53
Black Orcs usually have targets painted on them as the enemy tend to worry about the unit and throw everything at it. That generally means that the rest of your army is going full spedd across the board. The BO are able to take the punishment best as they have atleast some measure of protection, do not panic from other greenskins and have better leadership.
They are also great at line breaking and will operate just as well in round 2 as the first.