View Full Version : 2nd gen slann:cheesy??

01-02-2007, 22:10
Seriously, would you consider a 2nd generation slann cheesy, when fielded in 2000pts games?
Fluff-wise, it's a bit odd to see one of the last 5 remaining 2nd generation slanns leading a skirmish, but the same goes for grimgor or the fey enchantress..
Being a lizardman player myself since 1996, i have only recently begun to use him in 2000 pts games, mainly to refresh my army list..
All in all, would u have any objection against this list: (or an equivalent)
Slann Mage-Priest (610)
Battle Standard,Plaque of Dominion,Plaque of Tepok,Diadem of Power
War Banner

16 Temple Guard (348)
Shields,Full command,Jaguar Standard

10 Skink skirmishers, blowpipes (60)
10 Skink skirmishers, blowpipes (60)
10 Skink skirmishers, blowpipes (60)
10 Skink skirmishers, javelins (60)
10 Skink skirmishers, javelins (60)

4 Kroxigors, champion (252)

6 Terradons, champion (220)

5 Chameleon Skinks (75)

3 Salamander hunting packs (195)

I have not used the fear-causing banner on purpose, as i find this makes the temple-guard unit nearly invincible, and that is no fun at all..
For the same reason i hate boosting the magic phase with skink priests; the slann is enough on his own.
All in all, I believe it is a well rounded force, which participates in all the phases, and is still challenging as far as strategy is concerned. What are your thoughts? Is the presence of the slann enough to justify the term "cheese"??

01-02-2007, 22:19
I would object to ANY 610 point character. They decide the game single handedly. Either they win it and and kill stuff, or they die and you lose. There's rarely middle ground.

A 610 pt. character requires your opponent to target one model. Though this might be fine for one game where you and your friend are bored, I would highly object.

01-02-2007, 22:23
Its not cheesy until you only have a second gen slann mage priest, and the rest of you army is some kind of skink. I'll admit I think using the 5 units of skirmishing skinks to be more cheesy than a mage priest.

01-02-2007, 22:41
hey, thanks for the quick replies..
@Dark Terror: I will agree, it's the eggs in the basket syndrome... However, would you consider it unsporting?? I bet any player can find a way around this set-up...If I fielded a 25-strong T.guard unit with fear, that would scream "cheese", but i want to believe that my choices give any player a fair chance...

01-02-2007, 22:54
I'd have no problem playing it. Might not want to play it regularly, but where's the harm?

Chicago Slim
01-02-2007, 22:56
There is no cheese.

No, seriously, there's no such thing, at least in terms of army composition. If you want to bring 30% of your army in a single model, more power to you. I disagree with the notion that that sets the tone of the game as "I'm gunning for your big point sink", in a winner-take-all showdown on that one model. It's only 30% of your army, for heaven's sake.

My first plan against such an uneven build is to try to isolate and limit the effectiveness of your big guy, using as little force as possible (so that I can bring the bulk of my forces to bear on the remaining 70% of your points). That's a fun game.

If what you have is a 2nd gen Slaan and a bunch of Skink priests, then I'm going to have a very hard time limiting your Slaan's effectiveness (since he'll rock my world in the magic phase), which means I'm probably going to be hunting for your Skink priests, which requires tactical victories in the Manuever and Shooting phases. A quite interesting game, actually.

If your opponents feel that they aren't getting a fair shake, based on what you bring, then what they ought to do (IMO) is to step up THEIR game. It's awefully sporting of you to choose to limit yourself, based on their desires, (and, sincerely, I think it's commendable for players to make this sort of agreement-- we do it in my local group all the time: "Hey, I've gotten blown out in the shooting phase my last three games out-- you mind bringing an army that isn't too shooty?")

But, I say again, there is no cheese.

01-02-2007, 22:59
I don't find the list bad at all. I don't mind expensive characters, because it highly limits the rest of your force. None of your Skinks are scouting, which makes it less "cheesy" imo.

I don't see this list being uber-powerful either, so I wouldn't have a problem playing against you anytime :)

01-02-2007, 23:36
its not cheese. expensive characters force you to use the rest of your very small army very wisely

02-02-2007, 00:51
I would love to fight that list. It would end up being a slaughter with your list left with nothing but the Temple Guard and Slann.

I actually had a fight like that yesterday and that was how it ended. He had his Slann, and Temple Guard. I had my entire list almost, and 3 table quarters. I won the game by close to 1.7k victory points (It was a 2k game).

Magic is overrated. A 800 point chunk of troops won't be allowed to do the damage it needs to do to be effective. In the end, the list really isn't that potent, so it's surely not cheese.

02-02-2007, 07:49
In fact, what i like about this list is that in order to win, I have to use the army to its full effect, i.e. I cannot just rely on the Slann and T.guard.
As Sashu pointed out, the lack of any other characters makes tactical movement very important: If i simply go charging my Kroxigors into any unit in LOS, they'll be runnin' for it sooner or later... The slann gives me the chance of actually casting 2-3 spells per round, which are most often than not 1st level spells(mistress of the marsh for example)!!!
As for the 30% character notion, the same applies to combat characters as well; Carnosaur or dragon riders cost as much, with the exception that they have they tend to be much more effective in game terms..But then you find yourself playing Hero-hammer again...:wtf:

Commisar BoB
02-02-2007, 10:30
You know I have been asking this very same question lately. I have only used my 2nd gen slann three times. Once in a 1 on 1 2000 pt game against Empire, in a 8000 pt maga battle is with 5 players, and a 2000 pt 1 on 1 against Chaos Drawfs. In all those games I dominated the magic phase. In the mega battle my 2000 pt force held a 3000 pt skaven force and in both 1 on 1 games I destroyed about 1000 pts in the enemies army with the 2nd gen slann.

So I think it my be considered chessy by some, but you just have to rmember you are putting your whole armies effectivness in chance.

02-02-2007, 11:18
I have been playtesting for a tournament with a 2nd Gen at 2000points and as people have said it really does eat all your points with the temple Guard. In nearly every game I have only that unit left to try and win the game, in fact I've gone back to 4th Gen as i believe the free points I get will give me a better chnace to use things like terradons to help me win

02-02-2007, 14:07
I am not a fan of 2nd Gen Slann in a 2000pt game for exactly the reasons DarkTerror outlined. Keep him at home until you play 3000pts. I would not consider it cheese, but it would just not be fun to play against, which is equally objectionable in my opinion.

But, I say again, there is no cheese.

And you are in a very small minority with this belief, because most of us do think cheese exists. RAF, SAD, and Skink Horde are just a few examples. If you try to defend such army builds I will just have a good laugh, but please, keep telling me that cheese doesn't exist... :D

02-02-2007, 14:11
I would love to fight that list. It would end up being a slaughter with your list left with nothing but the Temple Guard and Slann.
I have fought against an army almost exactly like that and it did indeed end up being a slaughter, with nothing left on the lizzie side but the Slann and two Temple Guard.

I would not rate that list very highly overall, as there are quite a few army builds out there it struggles with.

02-02-2007, 15:24
The are only 2 common Lizard armies in many tournaments:
1) Super Jaguar Oldblood with Jaguar Scar Vets
2) 2nd Gen Slann.

Type (1) is the most fearsome but type (2) is also pretty good.

The 2nd gen Slann and Temple Guard will hold in combat for a long time against most combat units even when double charged or charged in the flank but it will normally fail to ranked up Fear causers - Tomb Guard, Grave Guard etc which will cause it to flee from being outnumbered and then nearly 900 pts will be lost!

I've found that the 2nd gen Slann needs an additional bodyguard unit. in addition to the Temple Guard. The 2nd Gen Slann list that I've used successfully is:
2nd gen Slann in a unit of Temple Guard plus four units of Kroxigors with Skinks and 3 Salamanders.

02-02-2007, 19:17
And you are in a very small minority with this belief, because most of us do think cheese exists.

Was this a Fox News poll? If I had been asked, the minority would have increased in size.

Players are much more cheesy than lists. Pretty much any army book list is legit, though some are less fun to play against.

Having said that, this Lizzie list is rock hard. If I were taking it into a friendly game, I'd make sure my opponent was up to it first.

02-02-2007, 22:46
its not beardy at all, why, because its a second generation slann for crying out loud.

having said that, like otehrs have said, the rest of your army will die, but the slann+temple guard will kill everything off. so it will most likly, in about 60-70% of situations, become a draw.

Slann are not cheesy they are very well balanced for there points value. yes they can throw out alot of damage very quickly if you get all the right spells and you have the right stuff on him, but having a 700 character for 2000 points only leaves 1300 points left. now it can either be left out in the open or a temple guard unit for 300 points. so effectivly there is a static unit that can and will do alot of damage, but then you only have 1000 points of other stuff to protect it. which is the down side.

the upside is, they are slann, they know that there doing because the old ones told them so.

03-02-2007, 07:58
Having only one character in your army is going to be very limiting for you. As you have stated, you will have to be more tactically minded because you're gonna have to squeeze as much juice from your other units as you can.

You're also taking a gamble. Cause if you go against another magic heavy army, or an army of Khorne/Topek you're gonna be behind the whole time. Cause yes, you may be able to cast 2-3 spells a turn, but you're opponent might have twice as many dispel dice as you have power (dwarves immediately come to mind there). But that's part of the game. Designing a list that you either think will work best, a theme army, or just tossing around a few ideas. I hate it when someone designs an army specifically against the army you will be fielding. It takes some of the fun out of it. When I design an army, I either try to make it balanced or to go heavy in one area.

All in all, the list you have above I think would be challenging to play as. I may try it out one of these days being that I have not used any Slann above 4th Gen. Good luck trying it out though. Cya!

Got Squig?

03-02-2007, 14:06
I've never ran a list with a 2nd Gen, but I am going to in my first 4000 point game soon. I don't feel that anything other than a 4th Gen is required in a 2000pts game.

Personally, I would think the 40 skinks with poisoned attacks may cause animosity with some players. That's a hail of poison during shooting to face. People should never underestimate poisoned attacks.

I never play a game without a a good solid core of Saurus, and my beloved Saurus Cavalry play in every game (mainly because they're my favourite models). However, I like armies that have some following of fluff and to me the Saurus are bred to be the main soldiers of the Lizardmen. One of the posters mentioned running with a few Jaguar Charmed Hero's. I would second that, as it can be very effective.

03-02-2007, 15:20
i've tried it in a fun game. basically due to the fact he costs so much the rest of my army got destroyed and he just weathered the magic storm and took down the rest of my heavily out numbered army

03-02-2007, 15:38
I think it would very difficult on the person bringing the Slann, I have yet to play against one so I cant tell you for sure. I have played against people who sink a quater of their points into one character and well truth be told everyone I have seen takes the out with what they are least good at. So the Chaos General on dragon starts catching warmachine ammo with his teeth or the Grey Seer gets cut down in h2h.

03-02-2007, 19:38
If your magic goes well then alls well and good, but if you role poorly then thats a lot of points doing nothing. Personally I would take an Old blood.
I've seen a battle with a 2nd Gen and like the others it hasn't ended well for the Slaan or the rest of the army.

04-02-2007, 18:57
nah hes not bad i have seen him do well and seen him do badly it doesnt matter he usually wont make his points up unless you kill alot of chaos knights or something like that

04-02-2007, 19:50
Backgroundwise it shouldnt be possible to include a 2nd generation Slaan unless the battle was huge.

I would say that army has very little weaknesses, as you can just hide most of it in woods or behind terrain...It is a very frustrating army to play against, and its mainly based on the magic capability of the Slaan and the Shooting of the Salamanders, with the Terradons acting as Marchblockers and mage hunters and the Kroxigors as a deterrent to would be flankers.

04-02-2007, 22:37
second gen slan has 8 wounds on its own, apart from shooting you cant start hiting it from the front untill you are down to 2 temple guard, so that could be another 8 wounds or so...

so its not like its gonna die any time soon. the problem is the actual magic of the thing. it dosent seem to do well enough most of the time, and if your opponent is magic heavy then there is just a whole lotta points wasted because most of your spells will be dispelled, either through scrolls or good dice rolls.

so in 2,000 point i cant see much point in taking one, just take 2 - 4 skinks, after about 3,000 points, i would go for one. but they are to exspensive and they dont tend to do alot, because the 1000 point unit (the slann + Temple Guard) cant do anything. you dont really wanna throw them into combat, lets face it, temple guard are tough, but not that tough.

08-02-2007, 06:20
I actually just played a 2k 2nd gen list. It is not the first time I have done so. Unfortunately, what I have realized in the few games I have played the 2nd gen toad is just how streaky the slann is not only in a game, but from game to game.

What I'm gettin at here is that for the points, the slann is too unpredictable in the magic phase in my experience. Sure he can take any lore, however, many of the spells are only str 4 hits. The real damage spells are hard to get unless you roll well on your spell selection. Couple that with the uncertainties of rolling d6 wounds just makes him too much of a wildcard for his points.

So in summation, the slann isn't very cheesy at all. Because for the points and the protection he needs, his damage output is simply too unreliable. If he was a consistent powerhouse in damage, maybe things would be different.

08-02-2007, 13:04
nothing wrong with a second gen slann, scroll caddy and he\'ll become useless, just sit there like a big waste of points

08-02-2007, 15:56
I doubt one scroll caddy can hold off a 2nd gen slann for more than a phase if that.

Esco Thomson
08-02-2007, 16:18
It's not that big of a deal I know, but I have taken home two consecutive Best Army's from RTT, with a 2K lizard list featuring a 2nd Gen slaan. Did I win the best General, no. That's because of all the points made already. You have a fat blob of points, and either you will get great spells, or you won't. Then to boot, even if you get great spells, you have to hope to use them properly, and hope that it works out for you, seeing as if you don't absolutely decimate your opponent in the first few magic phases, you are pretty much hosed.

I went a bit character heavy in the sense that I didn't pack just the slaan, which ended up shrinking my force even more. Myself, and the 20 some players all agreed that it ended up being quite a balanced list though.

Your best bet is probably not to try to use the fatness in 2,000 points games, as your only real recourse is to go WAY skink heavy.

08-02-2007, 16:52
I don't think a 2k slaan mage is cheesy either. I personally would never use one. When I want real cheese, I take a 3rd gen slaan, 2X3 slalamander hunting packs and some kroxigors and skinks. Now that is an impressive, and more reliable battery than a simple 2nd gen slann.

But, I find these games quite boring. Its is all or nothing with this guy. Forget about precision moves and piercing attacks. It is all about blunt force in two of the more duller parts of the game.

A khorne army would wreak havoc on this guy.

Esco Thomson
08-02-2007, 17:16
Agreed whole heartedly on the 2 x 3 Sallies!

That's where the real damage comes from anyways as far as consistancy goes.

08-02-2007, 17:19
About two weeks ago, I fought an army which was virtually identicalto this, using a Strigoi VC army. He had the kitted 2nd gen Frog and TG (which came to nearly 1000 pts altogether in a 2000 pt game), two big units of skinks, some krox's, a salamander and crew (and the sal promptly ate the crew and became stupid), a small unit of chameleons, and a 20 or so saurus unit.

I nearly wiped him out to the man. The key wound up being when I flanked his TG with some Black Knights led by a Wight Lord while a big unit of Skarytons led by the Strigoi Count attacked the front. The rest of the army didn't do much. I had three wizards (the Strigoi and two Necros), so I was able to keep his magic pretty well under control, since he only had the one wizard (even if it was a Frog on a Plate).

So yeah, I have no problem with such an army. :)

08-02-2007, 17:32
This is not cheesy at all.. of course I'm on the "There is no Cheese" side of things. ;)

like the rest... it's only one character!!... and I've run a2nd gen slann in a 2k game. It's about 50/50. but I also have Suarus instead of all those skinks.

08-02-2007, 22:36
if you want a cheesy lizardmen list, take a lord on carnosaur, 2 stegadons and the rest being skinks with some terradons and kroxigors... it becomes hard to beat, unless you tune your army to beat it, and in a tourny situation, that is hardly the case...

now people will say "thats easy enough to beat", but think, is the army you would take to beat that the same army you would take to a tourny.. not likly... but then again, you would get a bad rep if you took a list like that...

09-02-2007, 01:37
I have no problem with this list either. I think the callenge is for the lizardman player to make up the points that are sitting there. I've played against armies very similar to this several times and all I would do is position useless little units between the slaan temple guard to keep directing them away from expensive units and after wiping out the rest of his army I can decide if I want to pile everything I have on the unit, or if I have the win and don't think I could beat it, just keep avoiding it till the end of game when I can take 3 of 4 table quarters. 2nd gen slaan is a big points sink, but it's hard for it to earn it's points in combat if it doesn't have anything directing or holding units for it to fight.

09-02-2007, 17:07
In my line of reasoning you either field a 2nd gen slann, or you dont field a slann at all nowdays.. So no.. it is not cheezeyyyy.. =)

09-02-2007, 19:03
as far as explaining why the slann is in the army... (because I thought about it in my army) is that he is traveling for some reason of another.

12-02-2007, 11:30
I doubt one scroll caddy can hold off a 2nd gen slann for more than a phase if that.

who said anything about 1 caddy? level 1 is cheap as chips, just take 2 maybe 3, generating 5 dice and packed with scrolls should hurt a slaan

13-02-2007, 18:45
Grymlok, I play lizardmen and I have quite a bit of experience with grand tournaments and competitive play. I cannot think of a time when someone using the Slaan, let alone a second gen, was even in the top few of a tournament.

The magic phase, is not a strong enough part of fantasy to, consistently, win games. Sure you will have some lucky games but I would prefer to have a consistently competitive army over one that some might call cheesy and may occaionally win.

As an opponent, I love finding out that I am up against a Slaan, I am assured a victory. There are so many devastating things in a lizardmen army that you are giving up by filling your lord slot with that fat frog. The Nike Saurus is half the price and twice as good, and feared.

This is what I suggest in the end, I have done this for every player that I have played against that had a slaan. I kept track of how much he affected my army. I will tell you now that in probalby 30 plus tournament games vs a slaan the slaan NEVER makes its points back. Skinks ALWAYS make their points back.

Lizardmen are the best designed army in the game, the most conbat effective and the most manueverable. Use those to your advantage and paint the frog for dislpay.

13-02-2007, 19:05
I would agree with you on the Tournament front Yade, as I would go with the Jaguar hero's too, freeing up points for more troops. I really enjoy using my lizzards in a combat set-up.

However, with all the time and devotion I put into painting up my Slann, TG unit and Oldblood on Carnosaur- I just couldn't resign them to dust collecting duties forever. As such, I do use them in games at my local store. Generally I don't know what army I'll be playing in advance, so I like to just alternate my lord choice. I've also finally got round to converting an oldblood on foot with a great weapon and look forward to using him, of course with the help of a certain charm!

13-02-2007, 21:06
i play lizardmen, and i think 5th generation are fine. they're still level 4 wizards with huge bonuses and flexibility, and 620 pts is overdoing it.

14-02-2007, 14:22
Hey, thanx for the feedback!
Anyway, i didn't clarify enough the fact that up to now, I hadn't used a 2nd gen slann, EVER! However, given the fact that he is included in the army list and that even a basic slann will cost about 450 points, i think he is worth his points, and the risk included...
The question was whether the inclusion of such a character in a 2000 p. game will render the game unfair and annoying for any of the two players...
On the tactical part, it is not easy to protect the unit of the slann, but i believe that the best way to go is to get the unit locked in combat: This way it gives a lot of points back, and the slann can still cast vital spells without the fear of getting shot to pieces.
As for the high cost, consider the cost of a combination of 3 skink priests and a slann...at least 700 points(not in one basket per se, but more vulnerable..)