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Inquis. Jaeger
18-07-2005, 08:49
What's up with Fanatic? Last I heard the magazine was pulled, we've had no new minatures or rules/books for a couple of months, and no word at all. What's going on?

And weren't we supposed to be getting that 'Thorians' book soon? I haven't heard hide nor hair of it.

Sai-Lauren
18-07-2005, 09:02
It got effectively shutdown a few months back, the staff got moved into the main studio team or are no longer employed by GW, the rules are web-only, so updates are handled by the GW web-team and Jervis Johnson's effectively in charge of little more than himself, his desk and his coffee mug.

MidnightResistance
18-07-2005, 09:04
Damn!
Oh well...it had to happen sooner or later.
The Fanatic stuff hasn't been very hot for a while now. I feel they could have done a lot better.

Vberg
18-07-2005, 09:40
Yeah. Not that i play Necromunda or Epic but even i could see they were making a hash of it in terms of support and in Necromundas case poor quality minatures (looks at pictures of Ratskins and Enforcers and shudders.)

A bloody tragedy especally when you consider Jervis Johnson has been one of GW's shining lights over the years and even he couldnt make it work.

More support in WD would have helped i think but its easy to say what should have been done.

It looks like all us specalist gamers have been driven under ground once and for all, o well :( .

boogle
18-07-2005, 12:21
the website has been redone and fanatic mag in now an online resource

i beleive the reason that Gw 'swallowed' up Fanatic is the fact that they wanted more of the resources that fanatic was percieved to have taken from them, also, GW has a thing about stuff not available in the shops not getting much support (thats why games like Necro are only run on a veterans day), also there are little things still sneaking up from time to time (Necro Gangs, BFG 2), so fanatic isn't dead, but the way to rise it up again is to play it in your store like you never have before and show them that they are worth working upon

Crube
18-07-2005, 12:52
More support in WD would have helped i think but its easy to say what should have been done.



Support for non-core stuff in WD has always been an absolute bl00dy nightmare.

Trying to get support and / or editorial for stuff like mobile ohone icons and even Fire Warrior was a real fight, so whilst it s a shame, and to our mind would (probably ) have helped Fanatic, I can honestly say I could see it coming, especially , as has previously been posted, the quality of some stuff has been not to GW's high standard.

Ah well

Delicious Soy
18-07-2005, 13:02
Maybe not model wise (though some were seriously good), but the sort of fluff they turn out, as well as rules and ideas, should really be lloked at by the main studio. Personally, I always thought that Epic, Warmaster, BFG and if at all possible, a reincarnated Man-o-War with the full support of the studio would be a seriously good idea, you could fight a campaign at all scales.

Vberg
18-07-2005, 13:05
Aye i agree it has always been a nightmare getting WD to support fanatic. I used to enjoy the two pages Jervis used to get to keep us up to date on the goings on at fanatic. I also enjoyed the recent Necromunda campaign feature. These features used to enhance the mag in my opinion. Id rather read this kind of stuff than about GW's latest atempts to scrape the bottom of the barrel that is Lord of the rings.

Its such a same that great games such as BFG and Blood Bowl get the rough end of the deal compaired to lord of the rings. Conclusive proof i think that the marketing men are truely in charge at GW :( .

boogle
18-07-2005, 13:07
Maybe not model wise (though some were seriously good), but the sort of fluff they turn out, as well as rules and ideas, should really be lloked at by the main studio. Personally, I always thought that Epic, Warmaster, BFG and if at all possible, a reincarnated Man-o-War with the full support of the studio would be a seriously good idea, you could fight a campaign at all scales.


there was talk of Man-O-War being incorporated into the Warmaster rules,
.

also most of the substandad Fanatic stuff was from Mark Bedford, so he might bear some responsibility if that is the reason why they stopped doing stuff

Inquisitor Samos
18-07-2005, 13:35
Its such a same that great games such as BFG and Blood Bowl get the rough end of the deal compaired to lord of the rings. Conclusive proof i think that the marketing men are truely in charge at GW :( .

I pretty much have to agree (although to be fair I think the LotR game system is not a bad one, and the figures likewise are by and large pretty good). It's just plain disgruntling, if not vering on disgusting, that all of the fine games from Fanatic that are within the two background settings of GW's intellectual property get treated like misbegotten illegitimate stepchildren in general, not to mention in comparison to the support the LotR line has gotten.

Clearly the emphasis is heavily on what will sell the most, with little on what is entertaining, interesting, and enriching of the overall game systems, "The Hobby," and its hobbyists/fans. A shame indeed.

Jedi152
18-07-2005, 13:44
Clearly the emphasis is heavily on what will sell the most, with little on what is entertaining, interesting, and enriching of the overall game systems, "The Hobby," and its hobbyists/fans. A shame indeed.
Agreed 100%. All they care about is the quick $$$.

So GW has decided to kill SG a little more.

Sounds about right, the precious few designers working on it are pulled to be put on space marines and LOTR.

Once again GW takes a dump on its older gamers, to pull in more kiddies.

I've stuck with GW for years, through price hikes and poor money management (re: Warhammer online) and i've always thought they were a half way decent company, only caring about profits, but a half decent company. If they finally kill SG then that's it. It will finally confirm that GW doesn't give a ***** about anyone except itself.

In fact i'd be tempted to start protesting outside GWHQ! It makes me that angry! :mad:

Isn't it about time we organised a web-wide petition to save SG? Or at least give the rights to companies who are willing to make them work?

Vberg
18-07-2005, 14:25
As Boogle said earlier, if we really want to protest at lack of SG support i think the best way is to head down to our local GW an play specalist games. Let them kniw theres a market for it. It always suprises the staff in my local GW when he sees me and some friends playing a specalist game, it makes them smile, which is kind of sad in a way that no one else at my local (that ive noticed any way) plays sg's.

Perhaps once GW have flogged Lotr for all its worth then we'll perhaps see SG's get the attention i diserve. But even as a write them these words seem naively opptomistic :( .

Jedi152
18-07-2005, 14:48
Good plan. They always sound a bit surprised at WW when i book the BB board...

I think it's time for the SGer's to come out in force!

MidnightResistance
18-07-2005, 15:17
NECROMUNDA shall live forever!
It's such a fine game.
It's certainly one game that GW needs to promote more.

Would anyone else here be interested in making out OWN Warseer promoted webzine for the various specialist games?

I raise my flag to lead a Necromunda group.
Now who's with me?

feugan
18-07-2005, 15:22
On the other hand, the Specialist Games website (http://www.specialist-games.com/) has been updated with a more navigable set up and downloads-a-plenty!

All the Specialist Games (with the exception of the recently released BoFA) have free downloadable rulebooks, and it looks like most if not all the subsequent articles and expansions are there too.

I think that qualifies as pretty decent support for BFG, Epic, Necro, =I=, Warmaster, Mordheim and Blood Bowl. It's not all $-grabbing doom and gloom!

Eldanar
18-07-2005, 15:57
I just recently got into Epic Armageddon, and I think the on-line resources and the support given to it are better than anything GW's mother ship has for the core games (barring LOTR).

My only complaint is I cannot find the Swordwind download.

Inquis. Jaeger
18-07-2005, 15:57
Hmm. Another nail in the coffin of us oldies. I reckon the biggest nail of all was LOTR. I can't see GW taking on too much extra staff/resources to design/promote/publish this bloody kiddy game, and Fanatic/what are laughably called Specialist Games took the brunt of it. Now all they have to do is shoot LotR in the head, and give all of those nice resources to Jervis

Vberg
18-07-2005, 16:09
The thing with LOtr is that the rules are nice as are the models but still it dosent add up to a good game. That certain X factor seems to be missing. It just feels souless, like its been designed to keep GW's acountants and share holders happy, which it was. It just feels wrong, like GW jumping on the gravy train that was lotr instead of doing its own thing as it usually used to do. But anyhow thats another debate for another time.

Chuffy
18-07-2005, 16:11
The thing is, it's not the specialist games guys themselves who are producing poor quality minis and rules. It's entirely GW's HQ sectiony thing just not giving it enough support or attention. Okay sure GW could make a case to say that Specialist Games don't make enough money so theres no point in investing any time or money in it. However, if they made an effort to promote it, start restocking it in stores, gave it alot of coverage in WD etc, there would be a huge resurgence in interest.

It really is a shame because the non-core games are all far better than fantasy, 40k and LOTR. Each one is far more tactical and more fun than the core games and the actual hobby support that SG gamers recieve is very good (new articles every week, unlike GW's main site which is "Look! Heres am article which will be in this/next months WD!").

Cherrystone
18-07-2005, 16:44
White Dwarf would be a far more interesting mag if it included 2 or 3 articles a issue devoted to a specialist game, dropping the said amount from wfb, 40k and/or LotR wouldnt really effect the systems as some of the articles in (my opinion) are just filler and these systems would still be getting the majority of coverage, it certainly help with awarness and sales of SG.
+ Epic is the finest game ever designed

boogle
18-07-2005, 17:24
^^^^ thanks for the spam post mate

fracas
18-07-2005, 18:12
they should have not killed fanatic magazine.
they should have used it to gaarner more attention to these games, which are far superior to their big 3.

bunch of dumb nits at GW imnsho

neXus6
18-07-2005, 19:14
especally when you consider Jervis Johnson has been one of GW's shining lights over the years and even he couldnt make it work.

I'm just going to simply say that every part of my being disagrees with that comment.

Blood Bowl and Space Hulk basicly kept me in the hobby when I was little (started Fantasy when I was 8 but these games kept me interested), now people playing these games are seen as less important than people playing 40k Fantasy or even LOTR.
I've heard bad stories from various people on how their Blood Bowl leagues were treated when they became more popular in the store than the other games. Because if people arn't playing any of "the big three" then staff get in trouble. :rolleyes: :mad:

Vberg
18-07-2005, 22:07
Call me dense but i fail to see why you disagree with my statement.

Blood bowl is the one specalist game in my local GW (Aberdeen) that seems to be well respected. They have a wonderful board and a good league going, its a shame i never got into BB proper.

neXus6
18-07-2005, 23:09
Okay you asked for it.
Your dense.

I disagree cause I am not a fan of Jarvis in any way shape or form.

As for the rest of it, when were you last in your local store?

boogle
19-07-2005, 00:00
well enough about Mr Cocker, what about Jervis? :p

Inquis. Jaeger
19-07-2005, 08:49
Okay you asked for it.
Your dense.

I disagree cause I am not a fan of Jarvis in any way shape or form.

As for the rest of it, when were you last in your local store?

I thought you just said you loved BLood Bowl? Jervis is the daddy of Blood Bowl.

And boogle, who are you trying to criticise for spam? :D

Vberg
19-07-2005, 09:34
Okay you asked for it.
Your dense.

I disagree cause I am not a fan of Jarvis in any way shape or form.

As for the rest of it, when were you last in your local store?

Yes im not a fan of Jarvis Cocker myself ;) but Jervis is a GW legend as Inquisitor Jaeger has said, he created Blood Bowl. I remember fondly the days of the J files in WD. He reminds me a time of when games came first, before profit margins.

Now i remember you from the old Portent days, your local GW is Aberdeen as well isnt it?

I must admit that im not that regular a visitor to the store so maybe the staff do treat BB players like rubbish. The last time i was in they had a very good board to play on, as well as a few models (including the Dwarf Deathroller) also on the notice bored was a BB league sign up sheet with lots of names on it. So BB at least seemed to be in quite a good condition in the north east anyway.

Eversor
19-07-2005, 09:44
also most of the substandad Fanatic stuff was from Mark Bedford, so he might bear some responsibility if that is the reason why they stopped doing stuff
Are you sure about this? From what I've seen, Bedford (along with some freelance designers) sculpted the only good miniatures Fanatic released. AFAIK the large mass of Mordheim, Necromunda and Inquisitor fuglies were made by trainees or sculptors who didn't make the cut to Citadel/GW.

That said, Bedford had his slip-ups too ;)

Brandir
19-07-2005, 10:07
I too am a big fan of the Specialist Games.

The new web site is pretty good and I like that fact that many of the rules are now 'living' and are available as free downloads.

GW are still working on updates/new releases for the SGs but I agree that being consumed by the main studio is a backwards step.

Fanatic was first established to cater for us 'veterans' and counter the feeling that GW just ditched games once the initial release was over. It was a fantastic idea and I am under the impression that Fanatic had a turnover far in excess of what GW ever expected.

Dragging these games back into the main studio just gives the impression that GW is trying to kill these games once again.

I did enjoy some of the Fanatic magazine, but I can understand the decision to scrap it. It would have been better if each game continued to have it's own dedicated regular magazine.

As for the argument put forward by some that LOTR is in someway to blame for the demise of SG I would say you are wrong. LOTR has, if anything, helped to subsidise the rest of the company this past few years. And LOTR is a kiddy game? My group consists only of adults and many of us play LOTR. But I suppose these arguments belong in another thread.

Playing SGs in stores is one thing. To show The Powers That Be one should buy the minis are rulebooks and write a letter (not email) to Mr Tom JKirby.

Vogon
19-07-2005, 10:14
I've got to say I miss the specialist games but they just don't get the support from other patrons of the local GW store. The games that get played are the big 2. We've tried several times to get BB, Epic or Mordheim off the ground and apart from a couple of die hards there is just not the interest.

As for Jervis, I've got nothing but respect for the guy. Met him on numerous occasions and he is a guy with a genuine passion for the hobby.

It was a sad day when GW pulled his resources.

Cheers

vogon

boogle
19-07-2005, 10:14
Are you sure about this? From what I've seen, Bedford (along with some freelance designers) sculpted the only good miniatures Fanatic released. AFAIK the large mass of Mordheim, Necromunda and Inquisitor fuglies were made by trainees or sculptors who didn't make the cut to Citadel/GW.

That said, Bedford had his slip-ups too ;)

Bedford is responsible for the Beastman Warband i believe and also the travesty that became a lot of the Epic armageddon stuff (have you seen his warhound?)

Eversor
19-07-2005, 10:21
Bedford is responsible for the Beatman Warband i believe and also the travesty that became a lot of the Epic armageddon stuff (have you seen his warhound?)
:chrome: I for one love the Beastmen ;) But most of the Epic things are naff, you're right about that. Especially the Warhound...

It's too bad Fanatic/SG doesn't provide sculpting "bylines" for more of their models. Then again, neither does GW at large nowadays. But I always thought Bedford was talented. He might be responsible for more of the craptacular models than I know about.

(As an aside, who made the I scale Eversor?)

boogle
19-07-2005, 10:40
in all honest the only good stuff Mark Bedford has done has been his FW stuff, and to be honest there are very few poor models in the FW ranges (which is probab;y the reason that most of my GW stuff is going to get flogged off, and the Eylsians will be dropping in)

neXus6
19-07-2005, 16:00
Oh I must say that Aberdeen is in far better condition on the Blood Bowl front than a lot of places, but it has taken a slight knock and it has nothing to do with the staff or the manager but people higher up.

As for my feelings on Jervis, well lets just say it's unfortunate this is a "family" forum.

Vberg
19-07-2005, 19:36
As for my feelings on Jervis, well lets just say it's unfortunate this is a "family" forum.

Okay now im worried. This seems to be a hatred reminicent of the hatred reserved for Gav Thorpe back in the good old Portent days. Surely such X rated opinions should not be attached to someone involved in so trivial a buisness as games design?

Brandir
19-07-2005, 19:39
... As for my feelings on Jervis, well lets just say it's unfortunate this is a "family" forum.

Why? Please tell.

boogle
19-07-2005, 21:00
some people just have no idea on good games designers do they?, Jervis is a person that develops games that don't lean towards any one race/team/group in particular, he has a wonderful attitude to gaming

neXus6
19-07-2005, 23:07
Why? Please tell.

Cause I get in trouble if I swear.

Yes, I dislike him as much as I dislike Gav.

Hmm, Jervis' name is usally at the top of the list in most of the crap there is.
Like that masterpiece of a 3rd ed Chaos Codex.

But hey I know when I'm out numbered by fanboys.

*picks up a 2x4 and starts backing towards the door*

Vberg
20-07-2005, 09:34
Cause I get in trouble if I swear.

Yes, I dislike him as much as I dislike Gav.

Hmm, Jervis' name is usally at the top of the list in most of the crap there is.
Like that masterpiece of a 3rd ed Chaos Codex.

But hey I know when I'm out numbered by fanboys.

*picks up a 2x4 and starts backing towards the door*


We're not fanboys, just a few guys who find it hard to beleve that such a level of hate could be directed towards someone who has done nothing more than make rules for some toy soldiers. Surely such a level of hate should be reserved (that is if its needed at all) for tyranical dictators and the suicide bombers who routinely kill inocent people, including children. But i digress.

By 3rd edition chaos codex do you mean the current one or the one before it?

Inquis. Jaeger
20-07-2005, 09:39
Well, at the moment, you're not exactly explaining yourself very well. At present you've provided absolutely no justification for this hatred of Jervis. What did he do, kill your gerbil or something? And the Chaos Codex v3.0 was at least balanced, unlike the powergamer's wet dream that replaced it.

Tastyfish
20-07-2005, 14:01
Why are all the epic forums locked, is this a related matter?
Is it a permanant thing or just temporaily while they get updated, or the web team looking after it move?

Brandir
20-07-2005, 14:11
The old forums are locked as we have shiney new forums:

http://www.specialist-games.com/forum/default.asp

neXus6
20-07-2005, 15:22
And the Chaos Codex v3.0 was at least balanced, unlike the powergamer's wet dream that replaced it.

Oh please stop, your making me laugh my **** off. That codex was utter rubbish, it was pretty much designed to lose to marines. You start with "what's a invulnerable save?" and take it from there really. Yes the Chaos codex can now be abused just like almost every other list in the game, it also now allows for a heck of a lot more character. As for powergamers they are the problem not the lists they abuse.

As for "such a level of hatred" do you think I would just call tyranical dictators and suicide bombers (depending on their situation) names. So "No I dissagree I think Jervis is a ****" is on par with "No I disagree I think Hitler was a ****."
:p

Vberg
20-07-2005, 16:09
The 3rd edition codex was now worse tham the marine codex, in fact in terms of character and options it was better.But this is by the by.

But from what youve said its still difficult to see why you have such a big problem with Jervis.

Tastyfish
20-07-2005, 16:51
The old forums are locked as we have shiney new forums:

http://www.specialist-games.com/forum/default.asp
Thanks for that, that'll teach me for using old bookmarks

Chuffy
20-07-2005, 17:03
Oh please stop, your making me laugh my **** off. That codex was utter rubbish, it was pretty much designed to lose to marines. You start with "what's a invulnerable save?" and take it from there really. Yes the Chaos codex can now be abused just like almost every other list in the game, it also now allows for a heck of a lot more character. As for powergamers they are the problem not the lists they abuse.

As for "such a level of hatred" do you think I would just call tyranical dictators and suicide bombers (depending on their situation) names. So "No I dissagree I think Jervis is a ****" is on par with "No I disagree I think Hitler was a ****."
:p

You'll notice he said it was "at least balanced".

neXus6
20-07-2005, 17:19
It was totaly underpowered, surely a list has to be "balanced" in terms of the game as a whole, not broken and underpowered.

Tastyfish
20-07-2005, 17:28
Depends whether you played them or not ;)

neXus6
20-07-2005, 17:41
Oh I played with them alright.
Game against blood angels was the most infuriating one I have ever played. "Oh so your characters have powerweapons and 4+ saves." "Oh your chaplain just beasted my Khorne Lord." "Oh all your marines get furious charge but my khorne berzerkers which are more insaine don't."

:p
I laugh about it now, but it was one of only a couple of occations in the 11 years I've been playing where I have actually got pissed off into a rage. What made it worse was that the guy was a totaly crap player, well until I went out side calmed down came back and bitch slapped his army. :D

The Ape
20-07-2005, 21:59
As for "such a level of hatred" do you think I would just call tyranical dictators and suicide bombers (depending on their situation) names. So "No I dissagree I think Jervis is a ****" is on par with "No I disagree I think Hitler was a ****."
:p

So basically you are comparing Jervis - a guy who wrote a book you dont like - with Hitler, a man responsible for the death of millions?

Okaaay...methinks someone is taking their toy soldiers a little TOO seriously :wtf:

Chuffy
20-07-2005, 22:06
Oh I played with them alright.
Game against blood angels was the most infuriating one I have ever played. "Oh so your characters have powerweapons and 4+ saves." "Oh your chaplain just beasted my Khorne Lord." "Oh all your marines get furious charge but my khorne berzerkers which are more insaine don't."

:p
I laugh about it now, but it was one of only a couple of occations in the 11 years I've been playing where I have actually got pissed off into a rage. What made it worse was that the guy was a totaly crap player, well until I went out side calmed down came back and bitch slapped his army. :D

Yeah but dude, you were playing BLOOD ANGELS.

BLOOD ANGELS.

B-L-O-O-D A-N-G-E-LS.

Powergame angels.

neXus6
20-07-2005, 22:22
So basically you are comparing Jervis - a guy who wrote a book you dont like - with Hitler, a man responsible for the death of millions?

Okaaay...methinks someone is taking their toy soldiers a little TOO seriously :wtf:
:wtf:

Dude what the hell are you on. That post was saying that Vberg was saying my views were that serious . Learn to read a thread rather than just one bloody post. :rolleyes:



Yes Blood Angels, but the real problem was the 4+ invulnerables, something which all marines got back then. :)

Brimstone
20-07-2005, 22:22
Well I think this thread has hit the gutter and has no reason to continue so I'm putting it down right now.

Nexus6 keep your temper down and less of the ranting or you'll earn yourself a strike.