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Von Wibble
03-02-2007, 20:16
I am an empire player and I regularly face chaos mortals (so no ambush!). Trouble is that my opponent feels that the empire army is too tough to beat with chaos and I am inclined to agree looking at things from the other side of the table.

Empire get van horstmanns to make their characters BEAT chaos characters in combat.

Their foot units beat marauders thanks to having the same stat line and lower points cost! They beat chaos warriors on the basis that they can afford to field loads of missile troops as well for the same points cost.

Chariots get shot by cannons, and cost more than them.

Minotaurs and equivalent monsters get shot easily.

(Chosen or vanilla) chaos knights get slowed down by pistoliers or murdered by cavalry charges. If they don't get shot.

That doesn't seem to leave many options...I have faced cavalry heavy, infantry heavy, beast heavy, monster heavy, daemon heavy, magic heavy, khornate and balanced forces. The only greater Daemon I haven't faced and beaten off is the Keeper of Secrets.

The only times any armies have come close are when I was in a phase of trying to win by playing aggressive (3 draws in a row with this tactic). When I play defensive although I win I see little that I do that my opponent wouldn't have done in my position. I do not attribute my victories to generalship so much as having the perfect tool for the job.

Can experienced chaos players explain to me and my opponent what can be done? Assume 2500 pts. The only restriction I place on my own army is no steam tank. Anything goes in the chaos force.

kyussinchains
03-02-2007, 21:23
either your chaos playing opponent is very bad, or you pick very cheesed up empire armies! ;)

I've never had too many problems playing against empire using my chaos, most of my foot troops are far superior to theirs, my characters are in a different league, and chaos knights are fantastic against everyone. Plenty of offensive magic and fast troops helps limit the effectiveness of missile troops, couple that with units of screens like beastherds or hounds means they're not going to have much of an impact on the army.

units of marauders led by an exalted champion with the helm of many eyes and a great weapon can hold up against lots of heavy cavalry charges, those S7 attacks usually mean 1-3 knights are dead before they get to attack.

units of flyers like furies and screamers are great, they can get to grips with war machines and missile troops very early on, they're also hard to hit, and pretty resilient (especially the screamers)

units of marauder horsemen can do to the empire knights what your light cavalry does to chaos knights, and mounted daemonettes can race up the flanks and get stuck into the sides of those block units. Flagellents should be avoided at all costs, and greatswords can be a pain too, although fear causing troops can help there.

Empire characters issuing challenges should not be accepted, sacrifice unit champions to this end, hopefully you're going to win the combat otherwise.

I dont see the problem, empire and chaos tend to be pretty evenly matched in my experience and it tends to come down to luck and generalship.

tyrion11482
04-02-2007, 06:06
:wtf: :wtf: :wtf:

either your a great general using a good list or good general using a cannon happy list. What god does he follow ?? this is important. the easiest way to own the empire is to mount a tzeentch lord on a dragon eye, staff sheild flail. something like 812 points or so then take some furies for dispatching cannons and similar annoying things these units smash cannons and other annoying things on turn 2 then are free the rest of the game to do whatever they want. as for van horstmans i dont put characters against the guy with it. easy enough its almost always on a mage(hero) or a warrior priest. so no biggie. just avoid the guys that probley have it or use the mirror of knowledge to find it then no prob. also just magic the empire to death. they have lots of neat tricks but i usually have to many dice around turn 2 when they used all there scrolls and seal of destruction and such. also the dragon is for parking on the flank of units and 2 breath weaponing them and casting spells he really shouldnt be engaged very much cept in a rear charge.


sorry about the large run ons:p

Von Wibble
04-02-2007, 20:10
Err..I use no more than 2 cannons and usually 1 cannon.

Marauder horsemen can't do to empire knights what pistoliers do to chaos knights because the empire army just shoots them! After all they are imo priority target no.3 (after screamers and any characters foolish enough to allow themselves to be targetted without worshipping tzeentch)

Screamers aren't hard to hit. What makes you think they are?

Challenges can't be accepted by unit champions when they are dead through hochland long rifle. And I can't think of a single chaos lord that can take my elector count with vhs, shield of gorgon and 1+ save (many have tried).

Empire can easily get a strong magic defense of 8 dice so forget abuot magic - points wasted.

Helm of many eyes man - usually gets 2 knights. But vhs man is in that unit and challenges so you now get 2 attacks at 4s 3s and I have a 4+ save.
If the knights charge in having already shot the champion the combat is a foregone conclusion. Also remember marauders cost more than swordsmen and get the same stats without detachments, and without missile support. As for chaos warriors.....

If a dragon rider is over 800 pts I'd probably ignore him and go for the rest of the army...Magic and fire alone won't pay that points cost off. Alternatively I'd destroy the golden eye (I tend to use metal anyway) and then cannon/helblaster him. Helblaster has if anything got better against dragons!

Finally screening troops are only any good against troops not on a hill. Since the bulk of my missile fire is on a hill that just means they stop your good units from charging in, give me extra things to overrun through unless your movement phase takes half an hour, and force you to deploy a bit further back.

Just to give me some ideas could you post a rough anti empire chaos list Kyussinchains? I can safely assume there will be furies, screamers, marauder horsemen, chaos knights in there but what else?

Oh btw mounted daemonettes murder flagellants. They will always strike first and they have so many attacks that the flagellants can't strike back. A unit of 20 takes about 3 rounds to wipe out - not a huge delay for 180 pts.

kyussinchains
04-02-2007, 20:34
firstly, screamers take a lot of firepower to kill, I have 6 in my army, that means 12 wounds to wipe them out, handgunners are at -1 to hit as the screamers count as skirmishing, so at over 12" away they need 6's to hit, 4's to wound and the screamers get a 5+ save, usually meaning you have to throw an obscene amount of shots at them (usually in the region of 18 shots per screamer), and in a 2500 point game I would say that over 40 handgunners is pretty excessive.

it would be pointless my posting a list, I dont tend to tool up lists, and if you've got enough firepower in a 2500 point list to take down a unit of furies, a unit of screamers, marauders and knights before all those fast troops get stuck into combat, you've got too much firepower for your army to be balanced.

and 8 dispel dice is nothing compared to a tzeentch army's generating power, couple that with the staff of change and magic defense is easily overcome.

but I'm not in the 'build a bigger death star' school of thought.

why dont you post a typical empire list and we can tell you if it's a fair and balanced army in our opinion, and how to go about beating it?

Baindread
05-02-2007, 04:02
handgunners are at -1 to hit as the screamers count as skirmishing,

Not anymore since they are on 40 mm bases.

@Von Wibble: I see where you are coming from but your argument is kinda flawed. You are right that all those counters are true against chaos, but not all at the same time. Not 8 dispel dice. You won´t kill every champion with Hochland. Pistoliers are vulnerable. Cannons misfire.

If anything I would say Chaos has a nice field day quite often when facing empire.

tyrion11482
05-02-2007, 04:31
Not anymore since they are on 40 mm bases.

@Von Wibble: I see where you are coming from but your argument is kinda flawed. You are right that all those counters are true against chaos, but not all at the same time. Not 8 dispel dice. You won´t kill every champion with Hochland. Pistoliers are vulnerable. Cannons misfire.

If anything I would say Chaos has a nice field day quite often when facing empire.

couldnt agree more at any rate all your ideas are feasible but like he said all of them will never work all at once unless you load the dice. and on top of that a choas army is not gonna hang out and let you shoot at them if you got 2 turns in shooting against them i would feel fortunate. chaos is usually a HTH army and magic. the occasional hell cannon/dragon fire and thats really about it. as for the screamers thats fine i use furies anyways lots cheaper and fear in numbers is a good thing. so what god does this guy follow?? you never said. post a list and well tell you how to kill it

samw
05-02-2007, 05:15
Not anymore since they are on 40 mm bases.


Since when has base size mattered? They're still US1 unless there's an FAQ I haven't seen, and so still -1 to be hit.

kyussinchains
05-02-2007, 08:18
plus, it states in the rules for units of flyers that they are always US1 (WFB rulebook, page 69)

eleveninches
05-02-2007, 15:21
Find a way to take out their artillary, and then chaos will easily beat empire, as they have similar quality cavalry and much better infantry

tyrion11482
06-02-2007, 03:11
Find a way to take out their artillary, and then chaos will easily beat empire, as they have similar quality cavalry and much better infantry

screamers, furies, hero on disc you need more anti-war machine than that?:confused: :wtf: :evilgrin:

[dice0]

MarcoPollo
06-02-2007, 20:12
Well beastherds are an empires players nightmare, I would think. they can screen and move rather rapidly. It is worth investing in a few boxes for sure.

I think that warhounds are very important as they can screen more expensive troops until they can charge.

Keeping an MSU (multiple small units) army that is very fast is keey to killing shooty line armies. There are just too many targets to shoot at and none of them are juicy. Get them quickly into the enemies lines and take out the warmachines and gunlines. Once those are gone, sneak behind and hit them from the rear.

I would take (in 1.5K list) screemers of tzeetch, mounted demonettes, 4 chosen knights only, 2 warhound units of 5, 1 marauder horsemen, a big beast herd with two wargors of tzeetch and one big unit of marauders with an exalted with HoME.

The great thing about MSU Chaos, is that they can usually win the deployment phase. Especially against warmachine armies. This goes a long way to helping to get the right kind of match-ups needed to win.

GranFarfar
06-02-2007, 21:17
Since when has base size mattered? They're still US1 unless there's an FAQ I haven't seen, and so still -1 to be hit.

Since 7th edition? If my memory does not fail me, -1 to hit vs. skirmishers only apply if you are on a 20-25mm base size.

Von Wibble
06-02-2007, 21:18
Must admit that I thought due to base size and 2 wounds each that screamers were not -1 to be hit. Think you're right though, -1 to hit. But 6 screamers??? That costs more than the war machines its supposed to kill. Seems pointless to me.

We play deployment by map not alternation. It means MSU doesn't suddenly become an advantage where it shouldn't. And my opponent has used most gods at some point - generally he plays undivided. Screamers require this or tzeentch, and the tzeentch magic is really overrated unless backe up with undivided spells (there are only 2 spells worth dispelling so buckets of power dice mean little)

The list given there by marco pollo looks good - trouble is its a 2500 pts game! I think chaos do fine at 1500 and at larger games, its just at that size where the problems occur. Also that beastherd, along weith all your magic, will get murdered by a cavalry charge. Other problem is that the list I usually face (when not being experimented on) contains all that, and is yet to win a game against empire before the new rules. My opponent dominates his club with his chaos army so can't be that bad a player...

Btw, my army isn't that shooty. 16 handgunners, 1 cannon, 1 helblaster, and a couple of small detachments of missile troops (and pistoliers) Enough to kill marauder horsemen and cut monsters down to size but not what I use to even contemplate targetting foot units with. Thats what my own superior units are for.

Eleveninches - what better infantry? Most people are agreed chaos warriors are a waste of points, which leaves marauders. Marauders cost more than swordsmen and don't get detachments. Also they get charged (because in equal move scenario the defending army always charges). Combine that and the hth is in empires favour.

Btw, 8 dispel dice - arch lector, L2 wizard, warrior priest, rod of power. Thats 2 +2+1+1+2=8 dice (OK 5 in 6 chance, so 7 safe dice).

Hochland long rifles do kill 1 unit champion in 2 shooting phases - and only 1 is needed, namely the one with the lord. Note rule of burning metal is effectively my 2nd hochland long rifle...Chances of getting 1 wound from all that are very high - certainly not relying on the dice.

Pistoliers are vulnerable, agreed. But 2 units used in a sacrificial manner early on cause mistakes and tend to more than pay off their points just in wasting the chaos players time.

Strangely my helblaster has never misfired. At least, not without then rolling a 4+, or on the 1 occasion that didn't happen, having already decimated 2 units. Of course that is in pevious edition, but imo thanks to the S increase at long range I believe it has been shown its just as good - only at short range is it weaker. Last game I killed precisely nothing with the cannon, and a spawn and 2 minotaurs wit the helblaster (the latter after the game was won). Yet it was a massacre - thanks to my knights breaking his, (together with the general), and pistoliers stopping the rest of the army fighting. Shooting actually achieved very little.

I will post the last army I used. Admittedly no hochland long rifle but apart from that it fits the description.

Army posted. Its 2500 (religious nutters). Note as it was posted some time ago the first comments are on it as a take on all comers force - now please maul away at it from a chaos perspective. Imo it is balanced. Note the helstorm is now a helblaster (partly because I thought the model would be out and partly because I think the helblaster is better).

Baindread
07-02-2007, 18:30
plus, it states in the rules for units of flyers that they are always US1 (WFB rulebook, page 69)

True but not applicable since base size determines to-hit-modifier nowadays.



Since when has base size mattered? They're still US1 unless there's an FAQ I haven't seen, and so still -1 to be hit.


Like Granfarfar said, since 7th ed.

kyussinchains
07-02-2007, 19:11
yeah, it says 'man sized' in the description

stupid white dwarf printing stupid advice, saying screamers are -1 to hit because they're skirmishers!

well, furies are still -1 to hit!

Zanzibarthefirst
07-02-2007, 23:13
for flagellants, use a hellcannon, for knights with a unit strength greater then 6, use a hellcanon, for cannons, use a hellcannon.

Iziuth
08-02-2007, 08:28
Maybe a stupid question but are they by any chance hills in your deployment zone?? The last couple of times I faced empire with 2000 pts of chaos I performed bad because the Empire used the hill as a firebased to kill well about every thing worth killing.

I say this because if you use warhounds to screen the knights, the champion shouldn't be killed by the hochland rifle and the knights wouldn't be shot up at least until they have charged once. I also use a lot of small units including two spawns of chaos and a unit of screamers.
You could use a unit of furies and screamer to take care of the pistoliers. And use ranged magic to kill the detachments to make hand to hand a more even match up. I generally combine lore of death (1 lvl2) and lore of Tzeentch (2 lvl2). Another tip is to not use warriors as they are simply put to expensive to make them usefull against empire at this point level.

btw it sucks that they are no longer -1 to hit. They're still US 1 and don't count as flying cav.:wtf:

eleveninches
08-02-2007, 10:50
But 6 screamers??? That costs more than the war machines its supposed to kill. Seems pointless to me.

But its worth it is the artillary would otherwise kill much more points worth of your army

Von Wibble
08-02-2007, 11:22
Maybe a stupid question but are they by any chance hills in your deployment zone?? The last couple of times I faced empire with 2000 pts of chaos I performed bad because the Empire used the hill as a firebased to kill well about every thing worth killing.

I say this because if you use warhounds to screen the knights, the champion shouldn't be killed by the hochland rifle and the knights wouldn't be shot up at least until they have charged once. I also use a lot of small units including two spawns of chaos and a unit of screamers.
You could use a unit of furies and screamer to take care of the pistoliers. And use ranged magic to kill the detachments to make hand to hand a more even match up. I generally combine lore of death (1 lvl2) and lore of Tzeentch (2 lvl2). Another tip is to not use warriors as they are simply put to expensive to make them usefull against empire at this point level.

btw it sucks that they are no longer -1 to hit. They're still US 1 and don't count as flying cav.:wtf:

Using the deployment rules it is a safe assumption that any army gets a hill, since all that is required is to place 1 in both deployment zones. Of course the hill can be made less useful with strategic placement of another hill in its way...but we tend to just throw terrain on the table without trying to make it favour an army.

Trust me on this, 3 l2 wizards won't do much at all. 8 dispel dice remember -you'll get 1 spell a turn at best. More likely 1 every other turn. Tbh the lore of slaanesh is the one that scares me - 3 of the spells in there are game winning.

Isn't the hellcannon Archaon's horde only??

kyussinchains
08-02-2007, 12:33
Isn't the hellcannon Archaon's horde only??

nope, you can only use one in a normal army, you can use more in an archaon's horde army.

I hate the hellcannon myself, it's a titanic waste of points, and against your army, all you need to do is kill the crew, then it will rampage out of control and do more damage to the chaos army than yours!

Cragspyder
08-02-2007, 18:03
Have the chaos knights NEVER gotten the charge off on your own knights? Your description of your battles seems to assume you get the charge off 100% of the time. Surely your chaos-playing friend has gotten the charge at some point.

If it's really that unfair in a pitched battle, then play a flank attack or other more interesting scenario. It gives your friend a chance to win and you'll get to test your tactics something other then a 'everything is the way I want it to be' scenario. No army is going to be able to be in afavourable situation (such as your gunline with knights opposing his poor forward charge with apparently no intervening terrain to block shooting) all the time.

Von Wibble
09-02-2007, 14:36
What you have to remember is that chaos knights have the same M as empire knights. But empire knights are defending. Therefore for the chaos knights to get into charge range they must be in charge range of teh empire knights. Therefore the empire knights get the charge. Thats before you throw in the steel standard, one of my favourite banners.

We have played flank attacks etc and not just pitched battles. Sometimes this results in closer games, other times not. Imo last stand just isn't a balanced games because extra characters gives domination of the magic phase, and once the floodgates are opened magic can win you battles. Imo whilst all the forces are balanced for pitched battles (at least in theory) they are not in other games. For purposes of this thread I am referring to pitched battles.

Fixation on gunline again btw - I don't call 2 war machines and a cheap nuit of handgunners a gunline. And 1 unit of knights only. Empire can get a lot nastier than that if they want to - albeit more one dimensionally.

Following suggestions from people on this thread and on the army list I have devised a possible list for my opponent to try. I will post it. C+C appreciated, es[pecially as I am not an experienced chaos player, merely a chaos opponent.

kyussinchains
09-02-2007, 14:57
there is always the old overlap tactic, if a unit of hounds/marauders parks right in front of the knights, blocking them from charging/maneuvreing you can get your own knights in range without fear of being charged

KKKKKKK
------HHHHH


CCCCCC

whether that will work or not, K are empire knights, H are hounds, C are chaos knights, the line was simply to ensure the hounds were moved across the page, the empire knights cannot charge the chaos knights as the hounds block their movement, however the chaos knights can wheel and charge the empire knights.

that's just an example, and rarely occurs in such a clear cut way, but it's a way to get into charge range with an opponent who can charge an equal or higher distance than you.

having said that however, a character in the knights with the great fang and helm of many eyes usually wins the combat even if the other knights charge!

MarcoPollo
09-02-2007, 16:16
I must admit, shooting armies are very difficult for chaos to win against. Skaven, dwarfs, and empire shooty armies are tough.

Beast skirmishers are invavluable. A bolt thrower will only take out 1 ungor (4pts) instead of a 45 pt chosen chaos knight.

I think your lists will be superior to your friends lists, and there will be no quick fix for him. He will have to learn the art of baiting and counter baiting, how to use furries/screemers effectively, and the ability to maximize and balance an army list well.

Angling warhounds to accept charges from knights/fast cav big units will make a big deal. IMO, a chaos players use of warhounds is the first indicator of his generalship and strategic prowess.

Nkari
09-02-2007, 17:01
Beasts of chaos is a must for a mortal list.. more or less.. =)

Von Wibble
10-02-2007, 18:50
there is always the old overlap tactic, if a unit of hounds/marauders parks right in front of the knights, blocking them from charging/maneuvreing you can get your own knights in range without fear of being charged

KKKKKKK
------HHHHH


CCCCCC

whether that will work or not, K are empire knights, H are hounds, C are chaos knights, the line was simply to ensure the hounds were moved across the page, the empire knights cannot charge the chaos knights as the hounds block their movement, however the chaos knights can wheel and charge the empire knights.

that's just an example, and rarely occurs in such a clear cut way, but it's a way to get into charge range with an opponent who can charge an equal or higher distance than you.

having said that however, a character in the knights with the great fang and helm of many eyes usually wins the combat even if the other knights charge!

In that position, since you can wheel before charging, I can wheel backwards and align myself full on to your hounds. Then my overrun could take me into your knights. I realise that requires luck (13+ on 3D6 assuming optimal conditions for chaos player) but it is something to consider. Also no overrun from me or a charge from another unit into the hounds and slight shuffle back with the knights cuold just lead to your troops being baited or wasting time. Also note that to get your hounds into that position takes a turn longer since they are actually slower than knights. As you have already said you don't want to hang around and let handgunners and war machines kill more models so there is a tradeoff.

Final point on that is that it again shows why advancing with defensive troops can be a good idea - it cuts off opponents space preventing him from dictating which units fight which, and it gives you room to withdraw (for that read flee!) into.

Character with this item combo is undivided I assume. Otherwise that stupidity check could fail you at the most inopportune of times. My opponent likes undivided a lot since before whenever using knights of tzeentch/nurgle he always has them fail their first panic check and flee. Happened 4 games in a row. Then in the next 2 he would have fled but the reroll saved him!

Hywel
10-02-2007, 18:50
Well, chaos played with correct use of terrain and screen units should be facing no more than one or at most two shooting phases if you ask me.

Deploy tempting targets like knights/chariots behind hounds/beastherds or behind terrain if the suspicious Mobile Hill of the Empire™ has made an appearance.
Then not going first isn't really a problem. Your one turn in the open should similarly be screened as best as possible. Then by your second turn you should be charging anything with potent shooting potential with your faster units, preferably pursuing or overunning through them to the rear of the enemy.

This makes it sound perhaps too easy, but one can't account for all variables in a solitary post. This is my rough guide to how I beat any army that sits back with chaos, but then I do play a very speedy chaos army.

kyussinchains
10-02-2007, 19:31
In that position, since you can wheel before charging, I can wheel backwards and align myself full on to your hounds. Then my overrun could take me into your knights. I realise that requires luck (13+ on 3D6 assuming optimal conditions for chaos player) but it is something to consider. Also no overrun from me or a charge from another unit into the hounds and slight shuffle back with the knights cuold just lead to your troops being baited or wasting time. Also note that to get your hounds into that position takes a turn longer since they are actually slower than knights. As you have already said you don't want to hang around and let handgunners and war machines kill more models so there is a tradeoff.


obviously you can wheel, which is why I would angle the unit of hounds, that way if you charged thenm and wiped them out (very possible) you would expose your flank

sorry for not doing that in the diagram, but it's a bit tricky using only letters!

plasticfrog
11-02-2007, 09:49
I always get my butt handed to me when playing against Chaos....

... Furies are the bane of my existence- my warmachines are negated and valuabkle firepower wasted because of the -1 to hit.

... Mark of Slaanesh. All the CR in the world won't help when the steamroller Chaos knight unit of Death is unbreakable.

... magic missiles which blow away rank bonuses mean big infantry blocks (like mine) are rendered ineffective.

kyussinchains
11-02-2007, 11:15
well, a large unit of slaaneshi chosen knights can be hard to deal with for any army, as long as the empire artillery and handgun units are dealt with rapidly, they can take most things on, especially with the rapturous standard, that even helps against VHS, the guy using VHS will only be hitting on 5's (with his tiny WS of 3) and if you throw the armour of damnation in there too, he'll probably end up tied up forever.

Von Wibble
11-02-2007, 13:02
I always get my butt handed to me when playing against Chaos....

... Furies are the bane of my existence- my warmachines are negated and valuabkle firepower wasted because of the -1 to hit.

... Mark of Slaanesh. All the CR in the world won't help when the steamroller Chaos knight unit of Death is unbreakable.

... magic missiles which blow away rank bonuses mean big infantry blocks (like mine) are rendered ineffective.

Unbreakable?? Not since 5th edition I belive. slaanesh is immune to psychology - completely different. Hold him in place with greatswords/ rod of command/ flagellants and hit the side and said expensive unit is gone. Bad idea to spend a lot of points on units against empire, since they have so many things to stop them. And that's without a steam tank, which I never use!

Don't shoot furies - always treat every shot with a war machine like its your last and fire at teh unit most dangerous to your army as a whole. Furies can be made to never charge you with a little bit of preplanning due to their own immunity to psychology (so you simply make sure all locations within chargerane of war machines can be charged, preferably with a sacrificial unit that can still win through, eg pistoliers).To charge a war machine before turn 3 with immune to psychology flyers is very difficult. If you're that desperate take the orb of thunder.

kyussinchains, vhs swaps WS as well now. For some reason it was thought to be underpowered:confused: Besides I never give it to models with WS3 - I stick with the elector/ arch lector since they still dont have many attacks and can optimise vhs with a magic weapon and good armour/ ward. Note on an archlector or warrior priest I believe hatred counters the armour of damnation, leaving me 4 attacks at 4s, 2s.

plasticfrog
11-02-2007, 13:06
Unbreakable?? Not since 5th edition I belive. slaanesh is immune to psychology - completely different. Hold him in place with greatswords/ rod of command/ flagellants and hit the side and said expensive unit is gone. Bad idea to spend a lot of points on units against empire, since they have so many things to stop them. And that's without a steam tank, which I never use!

Gah!

NOT unbreakable.

*shakes fist at previous Chaos opponents*

kyussinchains
11-02-2007, 22:31
I was saying he would have a ws of 3 due to the rapturous standard, halves WS rounding up.

my main point however is that VHS is broken, really broken, it's annoying and hard to deal with when your army cant use the lore of metal, to be honest if my empire playing friend used it EVERY game, I would start refusing to play against him after a while as it sucks the fun out of things, now it swaps WS as well, it's even worse!

feintstar
12-02-2007, 05:26
I'd be interested to face your list with my Chaos Army, 2500 points. What I do is take a level 4 Slaaneshi Sorceror with the Daemonblade and a Spell familiar, an Exalted champion with the Berzerker sword and a Daemon mount, another Slaaneshi sorceror, a Tz sorceror, and as many knights as I can sensibly afford, marauder horses, screamers, furies, 2 chariots, 2 slaaneshi Spawn, plus as many marks of Tz as I can afford, regulary getting me around 15 powerdice, a bound spell banner, plus 3 combat oriented, fast mounted heroes.

That way, I get to feed the Tz powerdice through the Slaaneshi magician. (I figured this out because I agree 100% with your assessment of Tz and Slaaneshi magic)

So, against a dwarf player, his organ gun was frenzied, and charged my Chaos spawn, his bolt thrower crew was interested in running to the other side of the table, while his Hammerers(?) marched out in front of his cannon for similar reasons, ready to be flank charged, leaving 20 gunners and an anvil of doom to get wiped by a cavalry charge. And a Slayer hero versus a Tz Asp Champ on a chariot resulted in the Tz champion cutting him down without working up a sweat, in spite of the dwarf getting the charge. It was a massacre.

Similarly, versus Ogres, who were wise to my magic heavy ways, loaded up on MR3 for every unit save a giant. I avoided his Lord unit and wiped out the rest. Major victory, as a miscast killed my spellcasterlord.

Knowing where you feild your vhs, I'd send him to the other side of the board, frenzy it, and/or charge it with a no frills Tz Knight unit and a Chariot. Get your Chaos friend to try that out - Slaanesh plus Tz = magic ownership.

But ultimately, none of that will work too well if your opponent is prepared.

What you seem to be saying is that no matter what he tries, you seem to predict what he's going to try and come up with the best defence for it. Basically, his choice of units/characters never surprises you, and that's why you win. Know thy enemy and yourself, etc etc.

So if you play a game against a 3rd party while he makes a list then use the same list to face him, then he'll probably do a lot better.


And along similar lines, try with more/different terrain. Suppose you only have 1 hill, or 2 at most. you place 1 in a deployment zone, he places the other in the middle of one of the flanks. then, 50 50 chance of you not having a hill to park your men on, and worse, you might get a whole army hidden by a hill in the middle of a flank of the board, (with a forest on the other side, equivalent position) and therefore, regardless of which flank you refuse, he can therefore flank you on two sides. Not a nice situation to be in. Or only 1 hill - if he gets to place first, then you don't have a hill, except outside the deployment zones. And you'll probably find it oh so very much harder to win, simply cos of that simple difference. Now his hounds screen, you shoot in one rank, your hochland is around 60% as useful, he can dictate your LOS to a far greater extent, etc etc.

Lastly, with Knights, he has to roll his armour saves individually. It works, trust me. They're a lot more survivable that way. :)

Von Wibble
12-02-2007, 16:41
I was saying he would have a ws of 3 due to the rapturous standard, halves WS rounding up.

my main point however is that VHS is broken, really broken, it's annoying and hard to deal with when your army cant use the lore of metal, to be honest if my empire playing friend used it EVERY game, I would start refusing to play against him after a while as it sucks the fun out of things, now it swaps WS as well, it's even worse!

Because chaos don't have anything grossly overpowered, like, say, the lore of Slaanesh? Yet I wouldn't refuse to play an opponent who only used this. Your best answer to vhs is either the daemonsword you mentioned before, or dragon ogres, who are also excellent against knights, and quite resilient to shooting.

Feintstar - that is also what my opponent did one time against my wood elves. A very close game that I won more through luck than anything else. Imo tzeentch power dice should only be useable by a tzeentch sorceror but I know what the rules are. Its very powerful. If I was facing a force like that (and I'd know during deployment) I'd charge forwards with my army! The only drawback of Daemonsword man is that a decent charge could kill him before he got to strike, and he can't flee charges. Aldred's casket also would be very helpful (lets see if YOUR troops like to be forced to not only not bother charging but also present their flank to my army!). But tbh that army does scare me. Its reason enough for me to want tro see a chaos revision that seriously tones down slaanesh (can only cast the frenzy spell on firendly units, +1 to casting value of the imobiliser, titillating delusions lasts 1 turn and +3 to cast). That isn't me being reactionary btw - I have had the lore single handedly win me games every time I've used a chaos or beasts army with it.

There is a reason that hills can be deployed - it is realistic. I have read somewhere that British military tactics revolved around finding a hill and standing on it (or just fighing on the opposite end of a swamp in Agincourt) - and as defenders it is safe to say empire can pick their ground. I think if hills weren't regularly played in deployment zones you can safely expect prices of screeners to go up - 6 pts for a hound is ridiculous otherwise!

My opponents armour saves aren't a problem or him. He has a very annoying habit of always rolling the number he needs (2s for a 2+ save, 3s for 3+ etc). Individual dice do seem to have a habit of coming up better for saves though!

kyussinchains
12-02-2007, 19:00
Because chaos don't have anything grossly overpowered, like, say, the lore of Slaanesh? Yet I wouldn't refuse to play an opponent who only used this. Your best answer to vhs is either the daemonsword you mentioned before, or dragon ogres, who are also excellent against knights, and quite resilient to shooting.


as you've said however, with loads of dispel dice, the lore of slaanesh, or indeed any lore struggles to get anything through, wheras VHS is pretty much unstoppable.

The other tactic worth using against VHS is using a lord with bindings of slaanesh and rending sword, he can force the unit champion to accept his challenge, then usually get the max overkill bonus, couple that with the ranks, standard and outnumber bonus and it's a combat winner, of course if there is no unit champion....

I usually take at least 1 unit of dragon ogres for armour busting, maybe 2, espcially in favour of knights against your army.

bigbear bailey
12-02-2007, 20:04
dear god let this thing die... Both of you are saying this and that... Lets face it. I bet Von Wibble has been playing sense like at least 5 years ago and his enemy most likly hasn't... I can easly say that every time I play this dude at my store I beat this guy to dust but that's because he sucks!


No matter what you say great chaos lord (as you views have helped me ALOT so you deserve the title haha) he is going to go Will I can go this... So that's that... lord, let it go indiana.... let it go....

kyussinchains
12-02-2007, 21:49
well, I'll sign off on this thread, I've given my opinion, I hope it leads to some interesting and enjoyable games for you both, but we do seem to be going around in circles, and I'm an argumentative sod so I'm not going to get drawn into it any further!

Sasha
12-02-2007, 21:58
my general tactics against empire

1 - try to take out artillery and detachments with faster / flying stuff / magic

2 - attack main force

if 1 fails then it's time for an all out charge and hope for missfires and misscasts

warlord hack'a
12-02-2007, 22:45
you can't wheel backwards von Dribble, do not know where you got that idea from. So the warhound trick is perfectly valid and also if you want to cover all angles around your cannonn where flyers may land that will take up your eniter army or at least 2 fast cav units.

Also, nowhere in the book does it say that there should be a hill in your deployment zone, so try it once without the hill to put your cannon and handgunners on..

Makarion
12-02-2007, 22:49
It's true no one forces you to have a hill, but it's really easy to arrange for. And why wouldn't an Empire general want a hill?

JohnDutch
13-02-2007, 00:40
Von Wibble it sounds to me like you need to find some new chaos opponents and have your ass handed to you a few times. No one can devise the perfect list, I'm sure your list is very strong against a chaos opponent but i am quite quite sure there are plenty of chaos players who could kick your ass given the chance to lnow your regular force before devising theirs. This would make you re-think adapt and overcome and become even better general.
Not flaming you old chap you just seem a little closed minded to peoples ideas, perhaps you never want your friend to beat you?
His best bet is probably a fast moving outfit, flyers, cav, chariots, minatours, ogre's,daemon prince, hell why not bring a greater daemon to the party!!!. Its not easy to shoot up your opponent when after turn one your worrying how many of your puny in hth shooty units your going to lose first.

Makarion
13-02-2007, 05:25
The fun thing is, his list isn't even optimised against Chaos. My estimation is that Von Wibble is a tad better at predicting enemy movement than his opponent, and can thus use his troops much more efficiently. That, plus his advantage in ranged combat, would help a great deal.

Modesty probably made him claim he's about the equal in tactics to his opponent. For which I can only commend him.

warlord hack'a
13-02-2007, 08:22
true, he is certainly a good general, or at leats better than the chaos one who might rely, like a lot of chas players I know do, on superior hth skills and follow the simple 'rush forward and attack' style of play. BU tstill I like to know how von dribble plans on setting in motion all the countermeasures he mentions within the 2500 point limit of his army.

feintstar
13-02-2007, 08:27
I agree with Makarion. He isn't optimized, and is almost certainly winning cos he's a better general.

But I also think that his terrain stacks things in his favour a little more than it ought to.

I play on a field with 1, maybe 2 hills, and we do deploy them. If there is only 2 hills, then the Empre player/Defender literally has a 50% chance of getting it in his Deployment zone. 3 hills to me seems excessive - Its Empire, Not Dwarves! Furthermore, If I was facing him, and he parked a hill in his deployment zone, I'd do my darndest to park a forest right in front of it. (not sure if that's legal - is there a minimum space between terrain features?)

Von Wibble is correct in that the Hills really ought to be deployed, and that there is a reason for this. However, that reason extends to the Chaos player's choice of terrain as well! It could be an ambush, or maybe the Empire army is trudging towards a defensible hill only to see their enemies emerge from over the crest. Or maybe the Tz sorceror has predicted his enemies movements and has the Emire defending an indefensible position... Either way, if he did this, I think he'd find his win tally fall heavily, though he'd almost certainly still win more than 50% of his battles.

Von Wibble
13-02-2007, 14:52
you can't wheel backwards von Dribble, do not know where you got that idea from. So the warhound trick is perfectly valid and also if you want to cover all angles around your cannonn where flyers may land that will take up your eniter army or at least 2 fast cav units.

Also, nowhere in the book does it say that there should be a hill in your deployment zone, so try it once without the hill to put your cannon and handgunners on..

wibble please, not dribble. Thats just silly:p

Why can't you wheel backwards? I don't recall seeing a rule saying it can't happen. Tbh I can't put all countermeasures in, you are right there. With any army you can't entirely optimise...

Johndutch - I have never claimed my list is perfect (such a thing doesn't exist). If I didn't want my opponent to win (anymore that is usual for a competitive wargamer!) then I would hardly be asking for chaos advice on his behalf. But if I have seen a suggestion employed in a game before and beaten it by adapting my tactics and not my army then I will point it out, and since I believe this is a tactics forum I also would want to point out strengths and drawbacks of any suggestions. I have to add that the games that I learn the most about how to use my army from are my defeats. Some of my best games are using high elves, and using chaos in 40k, as my win record is somewhat lower and most games are close. Similarly I want close games against chaos.

Since, like Kyussinchains, I am also argumentative, I am going to leave it at that. The point of starting the thread was not to claim that my army can beat all comers (at least all comers who have allegiances to certain gods!), but to ask what can be done by the chaos player. And I have seen plenty of tactics that do look very useful, which I shall pass on, so thanks for the help there. If all else fails I'll try using no missile fire or artillery, and winning only in hth without knights, greatswords or flagellants. Onward the mighty horde of Ostermark!

warlord hack'a
13-02-2007, 15:58
you can't wheel backwards because troops in Warhammer can not move backwards (it's a genetic thing I guess), you always have to turn and then wheel and then turn again and as in a charge you can only wheel and not turn you can not 'wheel backwards' as you describe..

warlord hack'a
13-02-2007, 15:59
oh yes and sorry about the misspelling, it was unintentional.

MarcoPollo
13-02-2007, 16:17
I hope you print this thread and show your opponent the advice we have prepared for him, von wibble.

I used to have a regular opponent in Vampire counts, it was my only opponent for abut two years. Now that I have played alot more opponents, I find that my general ship is alot better (along with my list making).