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View Full Version : Skarsnik vs. Casket of souls



Doc Havoc
04-02-2007, 06:43
Here is one I never saw coming.

I just played a 2300 point game vs. Tomb Kings with my goblin army.

I had Skarsnik as my general.

One of his special rules caused an interesting situation that was potentially crippling to my opponents army.

Sneaky Schemes: Essentially you roll for every one of your opponents units before the game. If you roll a 6 then they cannot deploy that unit with the army.

Affected units do not deploy as normal, but instead enter the board from their deployment edge in the movement phase of their first turn exactly as if they had pursued an enemy off the board.

When making my roll for the Casket of Souls I rolled a 6.

The problem is that the Casket of Souls is not allowed to move... at all.

So what happens? Thechnically by the rules it could be gone.

The reason stuff doesn't show up is because some units were delayed by ambush or something.

I still let him field it, (and he whupped me because of it!), but what do you guys think?

Khorneflakes
04-02-2007, 09:20
id have let him bring it in on the table edge and work it from there, to be fair

T10
04-02-2007, 10:24
I still let him field it, (and he whupped me because of it!), but what do you guys think?

I think you did the right thing and had a more fun game for it.

-T10

Cenyu
04-02-2007, 10:53
The same situation would arise with a Cauldron of Blood or an Anvil of Doom, wouldn't it?

Just for the sake of common sense I'd decide the same way as Khorneflakes - after all even though they can't be moved during the battle these constructions have to arrive somehow on the battlefield beforehand.

DeathlessDraich
04-02-2007, 11:22
I agree with the others.

Skarsnik does not prevent units from being deployed but modifies their deployment. The Casket therefore must be on the battlefield somehow.

Did The TK player field Settra?

Incidentally, there was a reverse situation with Drycha, I think, - with WE units not being deployed in the first turn and then popping out in woods all over the battlefield. Very Interesting game

Slayhem
04-02-2007, 12:16
Or his sneaky schemes makes the battle take place away from where the stiffs had predicted and deployed their casket. I agree with the others that the game probably is more enjoyable if you let the casket arrive. I wouldn't push for this as the TK player though. Fair is fair.

Avian
04-02-2007, 12:25
There is nothing anywhere in the rules as far as I can see that prevents immobile units from returning to the table after pursuing an enemy unit off it. The only effect of their immobility would be that once you placed the unit on the table (touching the table edge), it could not move further.




Did The TK player field Settra?
As armies led by Settra cannot include Liches, I would doubt it. ;)

Revlid
04-02-2007, 12:33
Khorneflakes

What?
Anyways, everyone above is right. Sportsmanship dictates that it is placed on the board edge and cannot move from there.

Cenyu
04-02-2007, 13:44
What?

Uhm. The user who replied in post #2?

Slayhem
04-02-2007, 19:24
There is nothing anywhere in the rules as far as I can see that prevents immobile units from returning to the table after pursuing an enemy unit off it.

Great, then we're home free.

Palatine Katinka
04-02-2007, 21:31
I'd find it humourous if you deployed the casket but had the crew delayed. Seeing them stagger from the board edge to the location of the casket would make me laugh. If I ever have that happen to my Cauldron of Blood I'd suggest that to my opponent. Although, I think the correct interpretation is to place it on the board edge when it arrives and then move it no further.

intellectawe
04-02-2007, 21:39
I kind of see this a bit different. Everyone assumes you must do the first even if you can do teh second; You must redeploy even though you cannot normally deploy the unit as the rule tells it to be deployed.

I see it as, if you can't follow the entire rule, the rule doesn't effect you at all.

Sure the rule tells you to redeploy the Casket, but the casket cannot follow the second half of the ruling, so therefore the casket cannot be redeployed as it is not a legal target of the entire rule..

I may see this in a wrong vein, but either way, the casket would be on the table for the game. Some rulings can be twisted for an advantage, but this ruling would just cripple the army, and why bother playing?

Flame
04-02-2007, 22:11
Why would it 'cripple' the army to have the casket off the table for the first turn?

In similar situations, GW has ruled that it is placed on the board edge at the first opptunity.

intellectawe
04-02-2007, 22:38
Why would it 'cripple' the army to have the casket off the table for the first turn?

In similar situations, GW has ruled that it is placed on the board edge at the first opptunity.

Because if you wanted to follow the rules, and throw The Golden Rule out the window, the casket would never return.

Chicago Slim
05-02-2007, 00:53
I was thinking the same as Katinka: if it ever comes up (might-- I sometimes play greenskins, and have a Skarsnik model; my roommate sometimes plays tomb kinds, and has a casket) I'll suggest an amiable resolution: put the casket anywhere you want in your deployment zone. The liche will move in on turn 1, and has to hoof it to the casket. Probably, this will mean no actual effect, unless he places the thing too far from the edge to make it there in one turn (generally, the casket gets put on a hill, if at all possible, so that everybody can have LOS to it...)

Yellow Commissar
05-02-2007, 02:14
I still let him field it, (and he whupped me because of it!), but what do you guys think?

Nice win. Congratulations. ;)

intellectawe
05-02-2007, 03:10
I still let him field it, (and he whupped me because of it!), but what do you guys think?

You seem like one of the few, rare decent players left in the game. I think you deserve a huge pile of cash or something.

Doc Havoc
05-02-2007, 05:48
Thanks, for the kudos... I really didn't WANT to let him put it back on, mainly because the majority of my army was LD 5. (You cannot use your generals LD for units within 12" of the general since the casket of souls ability it is not based on an actual LD test.)

But I let it go and brought it up at the end of the game.

Needless to say, I took many, many wounds... 21 squig hoppers... not one of them even saw combat. 4 units of spider riders... 3 units of Night Goblins.

In some ways I was disappointed. Mainly becuase I was trying a goblin army for the first time. (Meanwhile my opponent was testing his Adepticon list.)

To be fair, I was aware that he was bringing his tournament list ahead of time. But when my wizard with the Horn of Urguk had his head detonate while trying to cast WAAAGH! on turn 2, (and consequently doing S10 hits to all models in base to base), the game was really over before it ever started.

Flame
05-02-2007, 08:45
The Tomb King FAQ disagrees with you not being able to use the generals LD ;)

You know you can dispel it, right?

EvC
05-02-2007, 11:28
I'm sorry, did your opponent actually claim you couldn't use the general's leadership, after you were decent enough to let him put it on the table with no argument? Or were you just so decent you ended up mistakenly deciding that yourself..?

intellectawe
05-02-2007, 13:19
Thanks, for the kudos... I really didn't WANT to let him put it back on, mainly because the majority of my army was LD 5. (You cannot use your generals LD for units within 12" of the general since the casket of souls ability it is not based on an actual LD test.)

Hey, I don't know what you been told or how you are reading the rules, but keep in mind that you can use your general's leadership for everything. As a matter of fact, a rule has to say that you CANNOT use your generals leadership for you not to be able to use it.

I think that the only main rule off hand that this applies to is stubborn units if you choose to use their unmodified leadership with stubborn.

Doc Havoc
05-02-2007, 14:01
I did not read the TK FAQ yet, but my opponnent did say that I could not use his LD. And to be honest, the wording in the rulebook seemed to support his argument. I will check the TK FAQ though, thanks.

intellectawe
05-02-2007, 14:23
The BRB says under your General that your units can always use his leadership, period. The TK faq says no such thing along the lines of "You CANNOT use your generals leadership". You use your Generals leadership for EVERYTHING. There has to be wording in an opposite rule that specifically says that you cannot use your generals leadership.

Doc Havoc
05-02-2007, 15:16
Actually, per p.82 in the rulebook:

All friendly units within 12" of the General model always use the General's Leadership value instead of their own when making any Leadership-based test (unless their own Leadership is higher, of course).

The Casket of Souls ability does not require a Leadership test. The TK player rolls 2D6 and if the result is higher than theat specific units LD value then they take X wounds. (Where X is the number that the roll beat your LD by.)

However, I do have the TK FAQ now and see that you may use your generals LD. I also noticed that wounds on Warmachines are randomized between the crew and the Warmachine. (That is something else we did wrong.)

I will inform my opponent of these and have him re-read his FAQ in addition to demanding a re-match!;)

Now on to better things... Stone Trolls vs. Tomb kings...

It would seem that by hacing stone trolls with LOS to the Casket of souls you could effectively shut it down every turn without wasting any of your normal dispel dice/scrolls. (Stone trolls have a magic resistance of 2).

Am I reading the magic resistance rules correctly?

Flame
05-02-2007, 15:51
Yes.

Note that aside from this one little instance, normal trolls are far better.

Autobot HQ
05-02-2007, 16:27
Yep, for some bizzare reason it seems Stone Trolls were designed by the Chaos Gods to invade Khemri by shutting down its entire soul-stealing defences :p

Atrahasis
05-02-2007, 16:49
So what happens? Thechnically by the rules it could be gone.Not at all.

The rules for returning from pursuit off the table are on page 43 of the rulebook, and they say that a returning unit is placed with its rear rank against the table edge, and then moves normally.

Normal movement for a Casket is no movement at all, but that doesn't stop it being placed against the table edge.

Mazdug
06-02-2007, 00:04
It would seem that by hacing stone trolls with LOS to the Casket of souls you could effectively shut it down every turn without wasting any of your normal dispel dice/scrolls. (Stone trolls have a magic resistance of 2).

Am I reading the magic resistance rules correctly?

Thats correct, however, a cunning tomb kings player will catch onto this technique after the first time, and will almost certainly make those trolls the target of his tomb swarms/tomb scorpions/carrion, since as soon as they are engaged in combat, they aren't going to have LOS to anything, and therefor will no longer be able to apply their magic resistance against the casket.

DeathlessDraich
06-02-2007, 10:32
Magic Resistance can still be used by a unit in combat.
The TK FAQ addresses how multiple units with magic resistance (and LOS) can be applied to the Casket.
The player chooses the highest magic resistance in this case.

enyoss
06-02-2007, 11:07
Magic Resistance can still be used by a unit in combat.


Yup, but I think the issue is that they may only use their Magic Resistance if they are the target of a spell. When in combat they are unaffected by the Casket (as far as I know), so may not add their Magic Resistance to any dispel attempt.

Cheers,

enyoss

EvC
06-02-2007, 12:51
Yes, we discussed LoS while in combat and the Casket a week or so ago, and the conclusion I reached was that it cannot affect a unit in combat as its description does not say it can, therefore the Trolls' MR doesn't help.

Khorneflakes
13-02-2007, 07:53
yes it is I, the great KHORNEFLAKES:evilgrin: !
thanks Cenyu for mentioning me in your post and to Revlid, hello.
seriously, any unit forced off by skarsnik must be able to return to the table, so should the casket although it should be at the edge as it is immobile as such. pretty rude to say it cant enter play ( anvils and cauldrons also )