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Nagrael
04-02-2007, 16:46
Hi all,

My friend plays empire and uses Great Canons and the first time he shoots it's always over aimed (not on purpose I don't think) and goes right over my front rank of units to my more point heavy units behind their screeners. How does one stop this from happening? I mean it seems like nothing is safe from a canon the first turn. The second turn if he guesses too far I'll tell him that there's no way it's that far and he'll guess a little shorter but it seems like their should be more strict rules regarding canons and their shooting.


So my main question is..do you guys have any house rules regarding this?


Edit: I'm digging the feature where it turns acronyms into links but when I say he I don't mean high elves :P

Festus
04-02-2007, 17:46
Hi

There is no rule to avoid that, and there shouldn't be one either IMO.
If he overguesses, he overguesses, if he underguesses, he underguesses. It is hard enough to hit anything with a cannon nonetheless, if you present just a narrow unit.

If you put your army in echelons and waves, you deserve to be on the recieving end of a cannon, I say.

Festus

Makarion
04-02-2007, 18:28
Agreed. Since when is a cannon required to aim for the nearest unit? Mine are generally on a hillock anyway, but even if they were on level ground, you can 'mortar' the shot somewhat I'm sure.

Mephistofeles
04-02-2007, 20:02
Hi all,

My friend plays empire and uses Great Canons and the first time he shoots it's always over aimed (not on purpose I don't think) and goes right over my front rank of units to my more point heavy units behind their screeners. How does one stop this from happening? I mean it seems like nothing is safe from a canon the first turn. The second turn if he guesses too far I'll tell him that there's no way it's that far and he'll guess a little shorter but it seems like their should be more strict rules regarding canons and their shooting.


So my main question is..do you guys have any house rules regarding this?


Edit: I'm digging the feature where it turns acronyms into links but when I say he I don't mean high elves :P


1: There is no way to avoid this, it is as it should be.

2: I think you should stop telling him stuff like that, he is allowed to guess too far and too short if he wants to, and it's not cheating or miss-using the rules or being cheesy, it's a part of the game, and it's realistic.

Shallowain
04-02-2007, 20:42
It is perfectly legal to do so and it is sometimes a kind of art using a cannon as a giant sniper rifle...:D

Chicago Slim
04-02-2007, 20:46
Agreed. Since when is a cannon required to aim for the nearest unit?

They're not, but they ARE required to have line-of-sight to their target.

For historical perspective: Back in 5th ed, there was a requirement that cannon had to declare a model as the target, and needed line of sight to that target (quite like the current rules). This sometimes caused tension, as cannons would falsely claim one target, which happened to be in a straight line with a much juicier target that was out of LOS. This was seen as especially outrageous if the actual intended target is, for example, inside a woods.

Under 6th Ed, GW cooled heads by saying "Hey, you know what, cannon can just fire wherever, all right? Deal with it."

It's my hope that we'll continue to just deal with it, when cannon deliberately overshoot the declared target, in order to try to hit something that the crew can't see. I mean, it IS a little smarmy, inasmuch as it games the rules a bit and requires the firer to actually lie to his opponent, but if your opponent is comfortable doing it, then there's really nothing you can do to stop him, so suck it up and deal with it: Cannons shoot stuff, and you can't really hide from them.

Chicago Slim
04-02-2007, 20:54
It is perfectly legal to do so and it is sometimes a kind of art using a cannon as a giant sniper rifle...:D

"Perfectly legal" is a strong overstatement.

BRB Pg 87, paragraph 2: "Declare which enemy model is going to be the target (remember, the target has to be visible from the machine itself)."

So, if you declare a target that's in a line with the thing you REALLY want to hit, but can't see, and then overguess the declared target, you are rather cheating, in the same way that declaring a charge that you KNOW will fail is cheating.

On the other hand, there's nothing anyone can do to stop you, other than to point out that it's not actually legal. So, for the original poster, I say: politely point out that they should be making a reasonable guess based on THE MODEL that they have declared as the target. Offer to read paragraph 2 of Pg 87 for them. Feel free to politely draw a parallel to the FAQs comments on impossible charges.

And then, if they do it anyway, keep a stiff upper lip, and know that you're playing with someone who's going to use their cannons in this illegal and unscrupulous manner. :) Trust me that it makes it all the sweeter when he misfires and blows them up.

Mephistofeles
04-02-2007, 21:54
Ok, seriously guys, you don't seem to focus on the point here. The rule says:

"Declare which enemy model is going to be the target (remember, the target has to be visible from the machine itself)."

There is nothing saying that you can only declare a guessed range that is logicaly to be estimated or anything as voodoo as that (there are and have been some rules like that), so there is nothing speaking against it.

Now, I see what you beef with this is, you consider it "Rules-lawyering" to miss-use the rules like this, and that it's pure Limburger to use cannons against targets that cannot be seen. This is not the case.

Things on hills can always see over intervening units, and since most cannons and warmachines are put on hills anyway, this will most of the time be the case, so no problem here.

The problem arises when a cannon put at ground level wants to fire at a unit it cannot see, and targets a unit put in front of the unit it wishes to target, thus using the "screener" as a sort of "marker light".

Now, we know this is legal out of a rules-lawyering perspective, but it needs to be justified out of a gaming perspective as well, and that is rather simple:

It's a *******' cannon, firing at *******' blocks of troops. The crewmen see how thick the enemy is at that particular place, and seeing how darn pathetic looking the screening unit is, they simply decide to fire straight through/over them in order to hit the juicy stuff they are obviously hiding.

A screening unit is fluff-wise and gaming-wise supposed to protect the main unit from enemy incoming fire by simply being a meat shield in the way of incoming missiles. This tactic does NOT work against a cannon, which doesn't really mind there being some extra meat in the way. This is reflected by the rules in a very good way.

Chicago Slim
05-02-2007, 00:25
Notice, please, that at the end of the same paragraph cited above, you are instructed to "guess as accurately as you can."

Notice also that I'm not that concerned about my opponents doing it: first, as Mephistopheles says, it doesn't come up as often as that: many desirable targets that would hide in the back are large targets, and therefore visible. Cannon are often placed on hills (though, if you as a cannon-wielding general don't believe that you need LOS to your target, then you presumably don't put them on the hill, since it provides LOS for your enemies, if they want to shoot at your cannon, and because you'd rather use the hill for troops with missile weapons).

Ultimately, I honestly do leave it to them to decide if they think that it's in the spirit of the rules to "overfire" with cannons. When I see a player I don't know put a cannon on the ground, I politely open the conversation with him, to point out the existence of the rule (a lot of players haven't noticed this change in 7th ed). If that player says "I don't think that's right", or starts to make a "logical" argument like Meph has posed above, then I let it drop.

But, let me be clear: I still think it's cheating, in the same way that declaring impossible charges is cheating: it's unenforcable, and it's not worth getting anyone's knickers in a twist about it. In any tourney that had a "players choice" vote or a "sportsmanship" rating, I'd make a deduction for it. Past that, whatever, man.

Chicago Slim
05-02-2007, 00:29
Oh, by the way, Meph-- I agree with Festus about waves of ranked units deserving what they get from cannons. But I more often see overshooting used to do things like targetting a single mage on foot, who is on the far edge of a wood.

TheDarkDaff
05-02-2007, 05:08
The rules for cannon targetting are a bit loose and that is what happens with games like this. What you should be asking yourself is "do i like playing against a lyer?" and you will get a good indication of what you should do. Cannons require the user to declare a target and do his best to guess accurately. If he doesn't do this he is just plain lying, and i for one wouldn't waste my time playing a game with someone of such moral flexability.

eldrak
05-02-2007, 08:35
Overguessing is probably in the same area as charging targets out of reach. Allowed by the rules but frowned upon.

Mephistofeles
05-02-2007, 08:37
Just for the sake of reputation: I don't overguess with my cannons, ever. I declare my target, and then guess towards that. I also alwas put my cannons on hills, so that I won't be tempted to overguess or use them in such ways.

T10
05-02-2007, 09:40
House rule

First the player A makes an estimate of the distance and figures out how far he wants his cannon to shoot (before adding the artillery die). He anounces the distance (e.g. "24 inches!") and places a marker at that point. Player B has the option of either accepting the guess at face value or calling his opponent on it.

If player B has no objections the marker is ignored and the shot worked out as normal.

If player B objects then he places his own marker at the point he thinks is the correct distance. The shot is then worked out using the marker closest to the range guessed. If both markers are equally close to the guessed range, player A's marker is used.

Example: Player A figures guesses 24 inches and places his marker. Player B figures the marker is short by an inch or two, but lets it slide. The shot is worked out as normal and the marker is ignored. Player A notes that his estimate was a bit short and learns from the experience.

Example: Player A figures he needs to shoot Archaon off his high horse and guesses 24 inches and places his marker. Player B realizes the marker is placed at around 18 inches, and decides to object. He does his best to estimate the actual 24 inches, the distance player A marked short and places his marker. Measuring determines that Player A marked off at 20 inches and Player B marked off at 28 inches. The shot is worked out as if the bounce started at player A's mark.

In this case the shot is worked out according to the intent as declared.

-T10

TheDarkDaff
05-02-2007, 09:48
No offense T10 but your solution would have no effect on overguessing. For it to work you would have Player A place a marker(where he can target) where he is aiming for and make his guess then have Player B make a guess and use the guess that is closest to the marker.

DLord
05-02-2007, 10:21
Overguessing is probably in the same area as charging targets out of reach. Allowed by the rules but frowned upon.

what is the point in charging an out of reach target?!

Festus
05-02-2007, 12:19
Hi

what is the point in charging an out of reach target?!
Causing a WLCannon to automatically run.

Or to make the way free for other charging units.

That is about it.

Festus

T10
05-02-2007, 12:37
No offense T10 but your solution would have no effect on overguessing. For it to work you would have Player A place a marker(where he can target) where he is aiming for and make his guess then have Player B make a guess and use the guess that is closest to the marker.

I agree: Placing the marker and using two guesses is a better alternative to using two markers. Player A's guess should count in the case of a tie.

The idea is to encourage Player A to both estimate as accurately as possibly and to announce his guess honestly. This reduces the chance that his opponent might see a benefit in challenging the guess.

Also, player B should be able to discourage blatant overguessing guessing slightly closer to the mark on the opposite side.

Now, the problem here is that this makes it possible for an abusive Player B to "take advantage" of an inexperienced Player A. In the long run, however, an inexperienced player will learn wheras an abusive player will not. :(

-T10

DeathlessDraich
05-02-2007, 15:31
This has been discussed many times with varied opinions.
From the latest FAQ, it seems GW prefers a dubious charge estimation to be resolved between players. The same principle will probably apply for overestimating a cannon shot.
It will have to be agreed between players amicably.

For tournament purposes, it's reasonable to assume that a tournament player is reasonably good at estimating distances. An overestimation would probably cost the player Sportsmanship pts. anyway.
Has anyone seen this occuring in a tournament?

alextroy
06-02-2007, 02:36
It's foolishness like this (along with my slowing improving distance estimating skills ;)) that make me wish they would just have you pick a target and roll some darn dice to see how close you came to hitting it dead on.

The SkaerKrow
06-02-2007, 06:34
So, if you declare a target that's in a line with the thing you REALLY want to hit, but can't see, and then overguess the declared target, you are rather cheating, in the same way that declaring a charge that you KNOW will fail is cheating.
No actually, you aren't. As long as the intended target is in line of sight then the cannon shot is legal. Overguessing might not be sporting, but it's completely legal.

The charge rules dictate that a player must rely on their ability to judge distances in order to ensure that the charge will reach its target. The rules for War Machines have no such compulsion, they merely remind you that you don't get to measure beforehand so you should try to guess a distance as close to the target unit as possible. There's a world of difference between the words "ensure your troops can reach their target" (which dictates that you must be realistically certain that the unit is in range to charge them) and "as accurately as possible" (as accuracy in this case is a completely subjective concept).

We actually have a notorious cannon sniper/overguesser in our group who tends to annoy people, and this thread gave me hope that the FAQ might have set a precident against such practices. I checked, it doesn't, so for now overguessing is here to stay.

beastgod
06-02-2007, 06:58
Im very good at guess distance with cannons when I play my empire and It's an rare sight with any hills in the deployment zone becuses people thinks its unfair...

But when I want to kill maybe an chariot behind an screen i guess the actually distance to the target and say 3-4 inch less instead for the usually 6-7 inches...

So often is the target Im aming at is hit and then the bounce often hit the chariot to...
No one have complained on this....

TheDarkDaff
06-02-2007, 07:20
No actually, you aren't. As long as the intended target is in line of sight then the cannon shot is legal. Overguessing might not be sporting, but it's completely legal.
But the whole point of overguessing is that the intended target and the declared target are different and while the declared target is legal(ie in line of sight) the intended target is not. The problem is i can't prove your intent unless it is blindly obvious that you are overguessing. It relies on the fact that gamers are going to be honest to prevent overguessing and i personally don't have time for dishonest people(please note there is a difference between a bad guess and deliberate cheating).

The SkaerKrow
06-02-2007, 07:47
It's still not cheating. If you don't want to be the victim of an overguess, you just have to be careful about the placement of your units in relation to the position of their cannon.

TheDarkDaff
06-02-2007, 07:58
The rules say you have to declare a target(which is by definition what you are trying to hit). If you overguess then you have made a false declaration as to the target(the target is actually the model behind) which is against the rules. Please note that target refers to what you are trying to hit. If you aren't trying to hit what you have declared as the target you are cheating.

peteratwar
06-02-2007, 08:57
The rules say you have to declare a target(which is by definition what you are trying to hit). If you overguess then you have made a false declaration as to the target(the target is actually the model behind) which is against the rules. Please note that target refers to what you are trying to hit. If you aren't trying to hit what you have declared as the target you are cheating.

No, if you overguess then unless you have done so deliberately (virtually impossible to prove except in clearly blatant cases) you are not breaking any rules. Some people are good at guessing others are not.

EvC
06-02-2007, 09:01
The rules don't even say not to overaim. It's just about the "spirit" of the game. A lega exploit, so should simply be considered something a wry player will do.

TheDarkDaff
06-02-2007, 09:21
No, if you overguess then unless you have done so deliberately (virtually impossible to prove except in clearly blatant cases) you are not breaking any rules. Some people are good at guessing others are not.Please read what i said again in context. The whole thread is about deliberate overguessing(which is cheating) as opposed to accidental overguessing(ie bad guessing). In retrospect i should have made it clear that when you deliberately overguess you are lying about your target(which is cheating). It just happens that the only person who will know if it is a deliberate overguess or not is the person using the cannon(most of the time anyway).

Yellow Commissar
07-02-2007, 00:29
The rules say you have to declare a target(which is by definition what you are trying to hit). If you overguess then you have made a false declaration as to the target(the target is actually the model behind) which is against the rules. Please note that target refers to what you are trying to hit. If you aren't trying to hit what you have declared as the target you are cheating.

Well, now that's exactly right. Nice to see people who know the rules. Deliberate overguessing is cheating.

I have a rather simple solution to the problem, though I've never had to use it. Players around here don't overguess.

The solution is to offer to allow your opponent to measure. Tell him that he appears to be overguessing on purpose, and that you are willing to allow a measure before so that no hard feelings are left. That way the cannon shooter has to declare an accurate number. How can he refuse such a generous offer?

Gorbad Ironclaw
07-02-2007, 05:35
Easy, measuring would be cheating and he doesn't want to do that.

JAB
07-02-2007, 07:20
I have a rather simple solution to the problem, though I've never had to use it. Players around here don't overguess.

The solution is to offer to allow your opponent to measure. Tell him that he appears to be overguessing on purpose, and that you are willing to allow a measure before so that no hard feelings are left. That way the cannon shooter has to declare an accurate number. How can he refuse such a generous offer?

Sounds like a very good solution!

T10
07-02-2007, 08:38
Easy, measuring would be cheating and he doesn't want to do that.

Quick and easy, the path to the Dark Side is. Let your judgment of distance called into question be not! :)

-T10

EvC
07-02-2007, 14:08
I still don't think it's cheating. You're nominating a set-point that you're pointing the cannon at; you don't have to necessarily set the range to hit that place. Sure, it's bad form, but all's fair in love and war, right? :D

(NB, I am unlikely to ever field a cannon or similar myself)

Yellow Commissar
07-02-2007, 14:49
Easy, measuring would be cheating and he doesn't want to do that.

No, overguessing would be cheating. Agreeing to a gentlemanly solution is what the rules tell us to do.

Chicago Slim
07-02-2007, 18:14
EvC: it would be one thing if you WERE measuring to a "set point", but you're not. The rules for cannon fire very clearly indicate that you pick a target model, and guess as accurately as you can to that model. (This IS different from 6th ed, which dealt with "overshooting" by, well, allowing it).

I REALLY like how DarkDaff put it: if you declare a target that isn't the one you're trying to hit, then you're lying to your opponent. Legal, yes. But, as with most cases where you deliberately lie to your opponent, it's cheating in my book.

On the other hand, I wholly and heartily approve of Beastgod's efforts to hit BOTH the visible and hidden targets, and don't mind if the actual intent is to hit the back end of the visible unit, and whatever is behind it.

So, I guess you have to draw the line of good faith somewhere, and that's where I draw mine: if your range guess is an honest effort to hit some part of the unit that you're delaring as the target, then I'm good with it. If you're able to catch the thing that's behind the declared target, as well, then good on you, and I'd better learn how to stack up my deployment better.

If, on the other hand, you're lying to me, and using the fact that I can't prove it, well, you're a cheater. Not much I can do about it, other than to stiff-upper-lip, and redouble my efforts to righteously blow-out the game.

Count de Monet
07-02-2007, 18:26
Well, now that's exactly right. Nice to see people who know the rules. Deliberate overguessing is cheating.

I have a rather simple solution to the problem, though I've never had to use it. Players around here don't overguess.

The solution is to offer to allow your opponent to measure. Tell him that he appears to be overguessing on purpose, and that you are willing to allow a measure before so that no hard feelings are left. That way the cannon shooter has to declare an accurate number. How can he refuse such a generous offer?

Exactly. Reading the early part of the thread, this is what I was going to suggest but YC beat me to it. :)

This would also be a nice friendly way to introduce a new player to guess weapons/cannons. Not everyone is an old grognard/great at guessing distances on a tabletop. After a few games of just measuring, start having them do actual guesses now that they've had some experience.