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TheDarkDaff
05-02-2007, 06:25
It was recently pointed out to me that according to the "Daemonic" rules on pg29 of the Hordes of Chaos book a Mortal Character on Daemon Steed is not restricted to what type of Chaos Unit he can join(ignoring the Beasts at the moment). Basically the book says that Mortals can only join Mortals and Daemons can only join Daemons and the only exception is characters on Daemonic Steeds(all the flavours are named).

So it is a given that Mortals on Daemon steeds can join Mortal and Daemonic units. What is giving me knightmares is what happens when the Mortal Hero on Daemon Steed in a unit of Daemons looses combat. The Basic choices i could come up with are:

a) The Unit Takes an Instability Test and if it rolls higher than it's Unmodified Ld Value the Whole Unit(including the mortal hero) goes poof except for the Damonic Steed which has a specific exemption from Instability.

b) The Unit Takes an Instability Test and if it rolls higher than it's Unmodified Ld Value the whole Unit goes poof But the Mortal Hero is Left on his own.

c) The Unit takes an instability test and the Hero takes a separate break test and flees if he fails while the unit may remain in combat.

d) As the entire unit is no longer "daemonic" it ignores instability and takes a break test like a normal unit and can flee.

My personal leaning is towards the whole unit including character goes poof due to the wording of instability and the fact that an attached character is considered to be part of the unit(and the rules say the unit goes poof). Any opinions welcome.

Festus
05-02-2007, 07:19
Hi

It is a long time ago this came up, but I seem to remember the following - without having the book at hand as I am at work.

It seems that you were misinformed: A mortal character can still only join mortal units, not Daemonic units. But he can have a Daemonic Steed while doing so (which is explicitly allowed even if Daemonic Models may not usually join mortal units).

Festus

Negativemoney
05-02-2007, 07:38
The only exception to this is if the character has the Chalice of Chaos in which case he becomes daemonic and will suffer from instability just as the unit of Daemons he is with. Other than that Festus is right on the money.

The defacto rule when considering what unit a Chaos Character on a mount can join is what the rider counts as. This is similar to Characters not being able to join a unit with a diffrent mark than they have.

TheDarkDaff
05-02-2007, 07:55
Hi

It is a long time ago this came up, but I seem to remember the following - without having the book at hand as I am at work.

It seems that you were misinformed: A mortal character can still only join mortal units, not Daemonic units. But he can have a Daemonic Steed while doing so (which is explicitly allowed even if Daemonic Models may not usually join mortal units).

Festus

While i used to agree with you that isn't what the book says


The following rules apply to all Daemonic creatures. Non-Daemonic models may not join a Daemonic unit, and a Daemonic model may not join a non-Daemonic unit. The only exception to this is a character riding a Daemonic Mount, Steed of Slaanesh, Juggernaut of Khorne or Disc of Tzeetch.It then goes on to Instability rules. Please explain how this statement limits the exception to the model on Daemon steed only joining mortal units and i will bow down to you.

Mephistofeles
05-02-2007, 08:44
What those rules mean is that a character riding a daemonic steed may still join mortal units, even if his mount is de facto "Daemonic". I am quite sure that a FAQ has cleared that up, but to me it is obvious that the rules for daemonic concerns that. It says that the rules concern daemonic, and daemonic only. Your mortal is not affected by those parts of the rules, and the steeds are also excepted.

TheDarkDaff
05-02-2007, 09:01
While i agree that is probably what they meant it isn't the rules. Even if we use the fact that the rulesonly apply to daemonic unit(ie. it is Daemonic characters and the Daemonic Units that have the restriction and not the mortal units/characters) then the character riding a daemonic steed is still the exception. The only way it would prohibit the Mortal riding a Daemonic steed from joining a Daemonic unit is if the book didn't mention the character in the exception. As it is written both the Damonic steed and it's rider are exempt from the restrictions.

Mephistofeles
05-02-2007, 10:32
I believe it is to be read as a sort of abreviation, like this:

"The only exception to this is a character riding a Daemonic Mount, Steed of Slaanesh, Juggernaut of Khorne or Disc of Tzeetch, (who may still join mortal units even though he has a daemonic steed)"

DeathlessDraich
05-02-2007, 15:43
I believe it is to be read as a sort of abreviation, like this:

"The only exception to this is a character riding a Daemonic Mount, Steed of Slaanesh, Juggernaut of Khorne or Disc of Tzeetch, (who may still join mortal units even though he has a daemonic steed)"

That is a personal addition to the rules.

The only part of the rule as it stands, that could be distorted in interpretation "this", from "only exception to this".
Some players might intepret it (this) as referring to the latter part only "Daemonic model may not join a non-Daemonic unit".
i.e. that is the only part which is made exceptional.

Taken in context of the rules, it is a very weak argument but the alternative is a conflict in how the rules are to be applied for Combat Res.

Kjell
05-02-2007, 16:55
Assuming that a Mortal character with a Daemonic mount may indeed join Daemonic units (which I personally doubt) wouldn't option c be the most reasonable?

DeathlessDraich
05-02-2007, 18:30
Seems reasonable Kjell but it violates another rule - character joining a unit is part of that unitin all respects (almost) and the unit as a whole must take a Break test not components of it.

ZomboCom
05-02-2007, 21:57
Given the specific rules are given for how to deal with a demonic mount joining a mortal unit and having it's rider killed, and no rules for the reverse, it's pretty safe to assume that mortal characters on demonic steeds cannot join demonic units at all.

It's the simplest option, and most likely the intended one.

TheDarkDaff
05-02-2007, 22:09
Given the specific rules are given for how to deal with a demonic mount joining a mortal unit and having it's rider killed, and no rules for the reverse, it's pretty safe to assume that mortal characters on demonic steeds cannot join demonic units at all.

It's the simplest option, and most likely the intended one.
Just out of curiousity can you give me a page reference. The only thing i have seen explained in the rules for Damon steeds is that they don't suffer from instability while the rider is still alive and that they and their rider are exempted from the unit restrictions for Daemons and Mortals.