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njbumper
05-02-2007, 14:23
The rail gun on the MANTA stat sheet says"ground attack,extra damage 4+".In the background section of the manta it states "THE HEAVY RAILGUN'S SUB-MUNITIONS SHELL IS EQUIPPED WITH A DRONE PROCESSOR,WHICH IS PROGRAMMED TO DIRECT THE SHELL TO IT'S TARGET.THIS IS MOSTLY USED DURING STARSHIP COMBAT,TO FIND WEAK POINTS IN THE ARMOUR OF ENEMY SHIPS,but IS ALSO USEFUL IN GROUND ATTACKS" The question is can you use this GUN in air to air?

mageboltrat
05-02-2007, 14:29
The rail gun on the MANTA stat sheet says"ground attack,extra damage 4+".In the background section of the manta it states "THE HEAVY RAILGUN'S SUB-MUNITIONS SHELL IS EQUIPPED WITH A DRONE PROCESSOR,WHICH IS PROGRAMMED TO DIRECT THE SHELL TO IT'S TARGET.THIS IS MOSTLY USED DURING STARSHIP COMBAT,TO FIND WEAK POINTS IN THE ARMOUR OF ENEMY SHIPS,but IS ALSO USEFUL IN GROUND ATTACKS" The question is can you use this GUN in air to air?

The computer says no.

(If the weapon has Ground Attack in it's profile then it can't be used air-air. Starships must move a bit slower than fighters.)

SurgeMaster
05-02-2007, 14:30
No it can't. The key words here are STARSHIP COMBAT, starships are massive intergalactic ship aka Battlefleet Gothic, in that a Manta is only a small bomber and not the biggest thing around.

Sorry

CaptainSenioris
05-02-2007, 14:30
Nope the ground attack rule means it can only attack ground targets.

When you're in space, ships are pretty big so not really an air to air target.

Sybaronde
05-02-2007, 16:56
I imagine that the rail gun "shells" are too slow to be effective in air-to-air combat, but perfectly fine for hitting slow moving/stationary targets on the ground. And as already pointed out, hitting a starship which is hundreds of times bigger than the Manta is completely different to hitting small aircraft.

That's a weird assertion. Rail guns are noted for their ridiculous high-speed projectiles. They'd be moving faster then autocannon shells even.

And to add to that, railguns are fully capable of hitting aircraft ingame in 40k, both from ground to air and air to air.

Edit: In all likelyhood, the rail-gun mounts and targetting program has been designed to hit ground-targets only. What strikes me as odd, though, is that they imply that rail-guns fire guided projectiles. :wtf:

Cohinor
05-02-2007, 21:22
The computer says no.

Gah, did you have to say that, now i have spilled my drink all over the place...

and yes they all are right. Ground Attack only applies to Air - Ground. No Air - Air for it ^^.

cheers
Cohinor

Spacker
06-02-2007, 06:32
That's a weird assertion. Rail guns are noted for their ridiculous high-speed projectiles. They'd be moving faster then autocannon shells even.

I realised that after I posted it, which is why I deleted it. You must have been typing up your reply as I deleted. :(

mageboltrat
06-02-2007, 06:38
Could be the powering up time. You hear them described as making a low whine and then a whipping sound as it fires. In that time the plane your firing at might have flown past.

Sybaronde
06-02-2007, 10:31
Could be the powering up time. You hear them described as making a low whine and then a whipping sound as it fires. In that time the plane your firing at might have flown past.

That wouldn't be much of an obstacle, in all respects. But if the weapon was designed to hit ground targets (i.e. targetting program and so on), then it most likely would be very cumbersome to aim at aircraft.

Anyway, from a fluff-perspective, this 'anomaly' is pretty bizarre.

Tastyfish
06-02-2007, 11:31
Edit: In all likelyhood, the rail-gun mounts and targetting program has been designed to hit ground-targets only. What strikes me as odd, though, is that they imply that rail-guns fire guided projectiles. :wtf:

They do, remember the Manta is really a deep space missile destroyer first and a huge bomber second. The railguns are used to accelerate drone warheads to high speeds, which are the 'missiles' in the name manta missile destroyer according to the first Tau codex at least.

Sybaronde
06-02-2007, 12:06
They do, remember the Manta is really a deep space missile destroyer first and a huge bomber second.

Originally, I thought it was both in the same role. Instead of free-falling bombs, they use missiles similarly to our cruise missiles (drone guided missiles).


The railguns are used to accelerate drone warheads to high speeds, which are the 'missiles' in the name manta missile destroyer according to the first Tau codex at least.

You'd think they have 'missile launchers' for that. :p Incidentally, the forgeworld site describe it as having seeker missile batteries and loads of missile pods. At the same time, the Tau Codices describe the Railguns as firing simple projectiles.

Oh well. Trust FW to make a mess with the fluff. :angel:

Imber
09-02-2007, 22:37
It does make sense though for Tau weapons to be sophisticated like that. Already we have the knowledge to create a railgun, so it makes sense for a race more advanced than out own to come up with an insane use for it like that. Whilst they have messed up the fluff, I like the FW version as I feel it fits the Tau more than what is esentially a very simple device.

More to the point, I do find it annoying that railguns can't attack air targets. Just a feeble excuse here, but perhaps it is some part of creating a self-guided super-sonic projectile means that cmpensating for both its speed and that of a moving target is a little too hard. Unguided, Railguns would still be unlikely to work as they are insanely difficult to aim, as they are usuallu considered to be static in relation to the vehicle they are mounted on, and so could only hit a target dead ahead of them, and which stays there (so therefore ground targets fit into those criteria whereas a high speed fighter most definately does not).

Personally though, I am dissapointed in not being able to unleash such power on all my enemies.

Tastyfish
09-02-2007, 22:50
I put it down to the fact that the time the drone brain switchs on and begins guiding the warhead to its target it will already be about 10km away - practically nothing in BFG terms but much to far for AI dogfighting.

orangesm
10-02-2007, 00:44
They do, remember the Manta is really a deep space missile destroyer first and a huge bomber second.

I would argue that it is firstly a drop ship and aerial support craft, then a space bomber, and then a air bomber. The primary role of the Manta is to transport a whole Hunter Cadre from orbit to the battlefield and then around the planet if need be. It also provides the Hunter Cadre with heavy firepower instead of artillery.

An interesting thing about small high velocity objects is that it is difficult to change their path because they have small control services.

Hellebore
10-02-2007, 07:09
Sure, make them anti aircraft.

I'll then argue that the thunderhawks' turbo laser destroyer should also be air to air, and would do a better job of it because it travels at the speed of light.

Rules are there for more than just reflecting fluff.

Hellebore

Tastyfish
10-02-2007, 11:47
I would argue that it is firstly a drop ship and aerial support craft, then a space bomber, and then a air bomber. The primary role of the Manta is to transport a whole Hunter Cadre from orbit to the battlefield and then around the planet if need be. It also provides the Hunter Cadre with heavy firepower instead of artillery.
I think the 'etherdrive' on it really highlights its role, it adds a whole degree of independence that a dropship just doesn't have and seems a significant investment given that a significant part of the Tau fleet doesn't have them. The Taros campaign book also indicated that they have a tendancy to work in pairs when in dropship or cadre transport mode.

Escort -> Cadre transport -> Bomber

Though really I imagine they were designed as multi-role spacecraft (transport, shuttle, attack ship) but this changed slightly after the Tau realised the scale that the other races fight on, what would have a fairly large spacecraft to the Tau is dwarfed even by Imperial Cobras. Likewise with Titans I imagine the Mantas were pressed into service as a desperate measure to fend off those sort of collosal war machines.



An interesting thing about small high velocity objects is that it is difficult to change their path because they have small control services.
Presumably again this is something that would work better in space due to a lack of air resistance? You'd get a much larger effect with a tiny thruster in a vacuum than in atmosphere.

orangesm
10-02-2007, 17:27
A dropship can be capable of interstellar flight. The Manta is the military transport for the Tau. The Tau have to get a large number of troops to what they think is a large war, they are going to have to use the Mantas as a Flexible Dropship. The Tau are also very much about cross use of the Manta.

Taros was a flare up for the Imperium a small Imperial Army being sent - 1 Tallarn Corp with 5 Regiments and 2 Storm Trooper Companies and a more specialist XI Corp with 5 Regiments and a total of 7 Imperial Navy Wings. The Tau still have little idea how large war can get.

So the Railgun is meant to fire at objects moving much slower respective to the Manta. The Manta also may have very efficient vacuum engines, but its mass makes it slow in a gravity field.

Sybaronde
11-02-2007, 07:34
Since when did Mantas get inter-stellar flight capability?

As for the debate of the Manta's role, just settle on that it's a tactical hybrid vessel. :p It can perform a number of functions, a few of which includes deploying a surface contingent, assaulting larger spaceships and probably heavy bombardment duty as well.

Nemoyo
11-02-2007, 08:58
The first Tau Codex describes Mantas using an ether drive for interstellar flight :)

Inquisitor Maul
12-02-2007, 09:09
They're capable of insterstellar travel, just very bad at it since they're so small they can't jump very far.

Imber
12-02-2007, 17:15
On a related but perhaps broader note, might there be special rules regarding stationary aircraft? I recall readng above a note that it is a difficulty in targeting an object at speed that makes it hard to target aircraft, but if an aircraft is at speed zero, could it not be possible to fire at one with ground weapons in the same way as firing at a hill. Ini the case of vultures and so on I can see how this would not work, as perhaps they could hover out of the way still, since air is evry large etc. However, my brother recons that he should easily be able to hit a stationary manta with a bombing run, given its size.

Spacker
12-02-2007, 19:04
Ground attack is clearly stated as being at the ground only - you can shoot landed aircraft, but not hovering aircraft above the ground.