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Knight Panther
18-07-2005, 19:52
Suppose that Van Horstmann's Speculum is given to a wizard.
Also, suppose that the wizard is using the Lore of Beasts, and gets "The Bear's Anger" spell.

If an enemy character is involved with a challenge with the wizard, and the wizard had successfully cast "The Bear's Anger," would the mage add the bonuses to the swapped characteristics, or his own? Would the mage add those characteristics bonuses to his stat line then swap(if he wanted to)? How does this work?

skavenguy13
18-07-2005, 21:58
I think you should always change the stats with the original stat line. Good question though.

fubukii
18-07-2005, 22:27
it goes off the base statline any bonuses from magic/magic weapons etc etc are not transfered.

For example: A chaos lord with a sword of might is str6, Therefore after the swap with a wizard he will be str4, and you will get his base str of 5. I must say though its not really a great idea to send a character without any armor or protection(wizard) against a tooled up lord/hero ^.^

samw
19-07-2005, 00:41
I'd say swap the stats and then add the "bear's anger" bonuses. And fubukii, believe me, a bears anger wizard with van horstmans will munch anything this side of archaon in a challenge!

skavenguy13
19-07-2005, 01:30
Hum... Sam, you do know it only works in challenges, right? Then the wizard would have to attack Archaon. And with his saves and the sword, I don't think the wizard can handle it.

KillbotFactory
19-07-2005, 12:47
I find the flaming sword of the Fire lore to be a better spell for the wizard with Speculum. Since you don't swap WS you will often find yourself hitting lords on 5's, but with the Flaming sword you always hit on 2+ and the +3 S helps because you don't have access to a great weapon.

And obviously this wizard would lose to Archaon, but he can easily stand toe to toe with any other character in a challenge.

fubukii
19-07-2005, 14:02
there are still certain characters that would win in the challenge regardless due to superior armor and ward etc etc. (Ex Blood Dragon Vampire with killing blow and great wpn)

samw
19-07-2005, 23:45
skavenguy13, I said THIS SIDE of Archaon, I meant that he could beat almost anything in a challenge up to (but not including) The Lord of the End Times. :p

Fubukii: um, no, a blood dragon due to van horstmans' stat swapping and bear's anger would get one strength 5 attack and be toughness three. The wizard in this challenge would get seven strength seven attacks and be toughness 6. Seriously, short of a VERY lucky killing blow role who's gonna win?

anarchistica
20-07-2005, 00:18
Base stats equals the stats you have at the start of the battle or "in your army roster". This includes any bonuses from Marks, Daemonic Gifts, Blessed Spawnings, magic items and such. This does not include stat modifications due to having mundane weapons. If a weapon grants you a Strength bonus or additional Attacks, this only applies in the Close Combat (i.e. halberds, great weapons) or Shooting phase (i.e. throwing axes).

There is no actual ruling related to recieving stat modifications due to having magical weapons. With this i mean magical weapons like the Chaos Runesword that state "bearer gets +1 WS, +1S, +1A" and not magical weapons that count as great weapons or flails. Common sense would perhaps dictate that these bonuses do not apply to the base statline, but you could indeed claim this.

The strictest interpretation of the rules -and how i would play it- however count any stat modifications coming from such magical weapons. If a Chaos Lord with the Mark of Khorne wielding the Chaos Daemon Sword would fight against a Battlemage with Van Horstmann's Speculum and affected by The Bear's Anger, the Battlemage would have WS3, A10, I10, S9, T6.

Geetarman
20-07-2005, 11:20
I would disagree and say that you would swap the base stats, then add on any magic item/spell effects.

Gman

T10
20-07-2005, 11:27
I would disagree and say that you would swap the base stats, then add on any magic item/spell effects.

Gman

Agreed.

But how about effects that replace stats? If I recall correctly, the Fell Blade gives the wielder a Strenght of 10. In a challenge, does the character with the "Speculum" get the Strength 10, or does the Skaven?

Personally, I think it would be: First swap stats, then apply effects. E.g. the Skaven character gets 1 S10 attack against the wizard.

Odin
20-07-2005, 12:17
The strictest interpretation of the rules -and how i would play it- however count any stat modifications coming from such magical weapons. If a Chaos Lord with the Mark of Khorne wielding the Chaos Daemon Sword would fight against a Battlemage with Van Horstmann's Speculum and affected by The Bear's Anger, the Battlemage would have WS3, A10, I10, S9, T6

********.


I would disagree and say that you would swap the base stats, then add on any magic item/spell effects.

Yes. In the case of the Battle Wizard vs Chaos Lord with Daemon Sword, you first swap the basic characteristics, then you add the Daemon Sword's bonuses to the Chaos Lord's (diminished) stats. So the Wizard gets S5, T5 and A5. If he casts a spell you then add any bonuses to these stats. The Chaos Lord goes down to S3, T3 and A1, but then you add the Daemon Sword bonuses.

If you are a muppet and decide you should take the benefits of the Daemon weapon which you're not holding, don't forget to give the Chaos Lord the benefits of your Bear's Anger spell!

anarchistica
20-07-2005, 12:32
I would disagree and say that you would swap the base stats, then add on any magic item/spell effects.
Unfortunately, the HoC book disagrees with you. The rules for the Chaos Daemon Sword state that the wielder gets the same S, WS, In and A as the Greater Daemon of his God. In case of a wielder with Mark of Khorne, he'd get WS10, S7, In10 and A7. From this you can gather that Daemonic Gifts do count as being the base stats (Bloodthirster has S6 + Daemonic Strength) but Frenzy does not.

@ Odin: According to you, the Daemonic Strength wouldn't count, while it does.

To list it:

Does not count for determining base stats

Strength Bonus from weapons; As per rulebook, page 89.
Additional Attack due to having two hand weapons; As per rulebook, page 88.
Additional Attacks due to being affected by Frenzy or Death Frenzy.

Basically everything that states it only applies in the Shooting or Close Combat phase. This also includes pistols for instance.

Counts for determining base stats

Chaos Marks, Kindreds, Blessed Spawnings, Virtues, Bloodline Powers, Daemonic Gifts, etc.
Stat modifications due to having certain magical items; If a magical weapon follows certain rules mentioned on page 88, 89 or 90 of the rulebook, this modification does not count.

Geetarman
20-07-2005, 12:51
What would you say would happen in a situation where the daemonic sword in your example is destroyed? Would the chaos lords stats drop again? I ask because the way you come across I would assume you would say that he keeps the stats (as the weapon simply changes his base stats, he doesn't need to keep using the sword to get them).

On the other hand if the weapon being destroyed would mean the loss of the stats then why would a mage gain them using the speculum...

Meh, I can just be content knowing it'll never happen to me...

@ T10 - yes I would swap basic stats first, then apply all magic and items etc, so your example would be exactly how I would play it too...

Gman

anarchistica
20-07-2005, 13:01
What would you say would happen in a situation where the daemonic sword in your example is destroyed? Would the chaos lords stats drop again? I ask because the way you come across I would assume you would say that he keeps the stats (as the weapon simply changes his base stats, he doesn't need to keep using the sword to get them).

On the other hand if the weapon being destroyed would mean the loss of the stats then why would a mage gain them using the speculum...
If the weapon would be destroyed, the bearer's base stats would revert to the ones he has without the Sword.

Think of it as this: The Chaos Runesword gives the bearer extra skill, speed and strength through magic. Because of this, the bearer actually gets these bonuses just by holding the sword. In the case of the Slaughterer's Blade (counts as a great weapon), the bearer doesn't get extra Strength from magic, so it only applies in the close combat phase and thus only grants him +2 to wound and -2 enemy armour save.

Knight Panther
21-07-2005, 23:29
ugh... this question doesn't have a clear answer yet :(... Although I must say anarchistica is the most convincing...

Anyway, what is the HoC book? Hordes of Chaos?

anarchistica
22-07-2005, 15:19
ugh... this question doesn't have a clear answer yet :(... Although I must say anarchistica is the most convincing...

Anyway, what is the HoC book? Hordes of Chaos?
Hordes of Chaos, yes.

The answer to your question is that The Bear's Anger is applied after the base stats are swapped. So you mage will benefit from it.

Knight Panther
22-07-2005, 18:33
Hordes of Chaos, yes.

The answer to your question is that The Bear's Anger is applied after the base stats are swapped. So you mage will benefit from it.

I see... thankyou...

useless
23-07-2005, 08:33
Suppose that Van Horstmann's Speculum is given to a wizard.
Also, suppose that the wizard is using the Lore of Beasts, and gets "The Bear's Anger" spell.

If an enemy character is involved with a challenge with the wizard, and the wizard had successfully cast "The Bear's Anger," would the mage add the bonuses to the swapped characteristics, or his own? Would the mage add those characteristics bonuses to his stat line then swap(if he wanted to)? How does this work?

it says in the empire book that any of the characteristics of the wizard are swapped with the opponent. so yes he would add to the his owncharacteristics.

TeddyC
23-07-2005, 16:57
Well the way i see is swapping base stats.

A magic item is the same as great weapons, spears, halberds etc. The character gets that skill because he is holding a magic weapon. Therefore the magic is added after the stats are swapped. Because unless the wizard also says 'hold on im using this so you also need to give me your <insert magic item here>' hes not holding the magic weapon and cannot benifit from its effects.

However id say things like daemonic stregnth or blessed spawning would count because they are not magical and are part of the model, in the same way bio enhancements effect tyranids. Their muscles are bigger or they are faster.

fubukii
23-07-2005, 17:10
I'd say swap the stats and then add the "bear's anger" bonuses. And fubukii, believe me, a bears anger wizard with van horstmans will munch anything this side of archaon in a challenge!

by the same token of you having a RIP spell up, lets assume he has hand fo dust. End result, he hits you on a 3+ and insta kills you. Like i said its not a good idea to send things without protection (wards) against vampires.