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Gutlord Grom
07-02-2007, 03:07
Could someone please explain why Marines are supposedly "broken"?
I don't see all the problems. Everyone says it's a power gamer list.

Kandarin
07-02-2007, 03:13
It's a very, very forgiving list, requiring less tactical acumen than the others. As such it tends to attract win-at-any-price powergamers and inexperienced players.

Vic
07-02-2007, 03:24
You mean like the Nid "lets pack on the monstrous creatures and give them tons of other stuff to shoot at" list?

How about giving us some solid examples instead of inuendo?

GraveDancer
07-02-2007, 03:27
terminator squads with two ACs and furious charge seems to be a fav/hated one

Morgrad
07-02-2007, 07:15
I think most of what people consider "broken" about marines is usually really easy to beat tactically. Usually it's assault-cannon-of-doom armies that people consider broken, and although I think there are certainly changes that should be made to the list to make it more about tactics than army selection, I don't consider it overall to be "broken" vs. the other lists.

Oh, I'm also a very strong proponent of limiting the number of monstrous creatures a tyranid army can play - and I'm a 'nid player for life!

Bookwrak
07-02-2007, 08:27
Could someone please explain why Marines are supposedly "broken"?
I don't see all the problems. Everyone says it's a power gamer list.

They're a strong list. Hardly broken though, which is why very few people call them such

Mr_Smiley
07-02-2007, 08:52
They appear broken because they have many options and can be very powerful without too much effort, thus attract power gamers very easily, thus people see them as broken.

Ravenous
07-02-2007, 09:05
The Boo army is one that comes to mind.

2 librarians (one of which is tigerius) with fear of the dark along with thier seperate command squads in drop pods. They just kind of show up say boo and win most of the time. Oh and not to mention the other 1000 some odd points with them.

That list wont make you any friends. Tactically its genious but the consideration of the fun level of your opponent is non existant.

Vaktathi
07-02-2007, 09:19
Marines are probably the easiest list to make a strong all comers army with, they can do everything, and do it well, with most of their common units. Your average marine squad can shoot well, CC well, tank/IC bust (lascannon+melta/plasma), and still be well priced.
I'll post the silly Marine army list I came up with in about 20 minutes after reading the codex for the first time, no traits, no special characters.

HQ
HQ 1:Chapter Master Commander w/bolt pistol and power weapon, combat shield, adamantium mantle
HQ 1 retinue: command squad, 7man w/Lascannon & Plasma gun

HQ2:Master of Sanctity w/Terminator armour & adamantium mantle, storm bolter.
HQ2 retinue: 6man Terminator Command squad w/2 Assault cannons.

Elites:
2x8man Terminator squad w/2 Assault Cannons.

Troops:
3x 10man Space Marine squads, Lascannon, Plasma Gun.

61 models w/ATSKNF
23 terminators
38 power armor.
20 power fists.
4 Plasma guns.
4 Lascannons
6 Assault Cannons.

all of this at 1976 pts and using only 2 different unit types (termi's and tac squads)

Thats alot of very hard to kill units that have enough anti-troop weapons to be effective against things like Orks, IG and Eldar, enough AP to put the hurt on armies like itself, some very powerful CC, high enough armor saves to assure that most of the army will meet the enemy intact, "And They Shall Know No Fear" for those situations where they do fall back, and enough high STR and Rending weapons to slap around vehicles, and 23 models that can Deep Strike, I don't think you could necessarily call such a list Balanced. I challenge anyone to throw out an army list from any other codex that can be as efficient and versatile in 20 mins without taking any special army rules with no previous familiarity with the codex.

I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad thing that marines are versatile and powerful, but it could use some balancing, and lists like the one above are why you commonly see it as a powergamers list.

That said, most marine players do play sensible balanced lists.

(FYI, I have no plans to ever really build the above army list)

Orbital
07-02-2007, 09:20
The list is open to abuses, of course, but all lists are. Usually when someone complains about someone else's army being cheesy or broken, its because they've lost to it a couple times.

That having been said, Marines have their easily-abused items. Assault Cannons, of course, are probably the main thing. Drop Pods, which have no penalty for landing in difficult terrain or on an enemy unit and contain all sorts of nasty surprises, are sometimes considered unfair. I've always thought the Psychic Hood (which, granted, plays a small part in most games) was a broken piece of wargear. Some of the other Librarian powers are referred to as broken, too.

The point isn't that we decide "this thing is broken" as much as it is to identify what people commonly refer to as broken. I say this because, when it comes down to it, abusive lists are a product of the player, not the army itself. A fair-minded and sporting player will eschew cheap tricks and obvious loopholes for a more satisfying and well-rounded list.

vlad78
07-02-2007, 09:43
Vaktathi wrote:

Thats alot of very hard to kill units that have enough anti-troop weapons to be effective against things like Orks, IG and Eldar, enough AP to put the hurt on armies like itself, some very powerful CC, high enough armor saves to assure that most of the army will meet the enemy intact, "And They Shall Know No Fear" for those situations where they do fall back, and enough high STR and Rending weapons to slap around vehicles, and 23 models that can Deep Strike, I don't think you could necessarily call such a list Balanced. I challenge anyone to throw out an army list from any other codex that can be as efficient and versatile in 20 mins without taking any special army rules with no previous familiarity with the codex.

Ok, with the necrons I can do better in five minutes.

Vlad

Vaktathi
07-02-2007, 09:46
Vaktathi wrote:


Ok, with the necrons I can do better in five minutes.

Vlad

without any previous experience with the codex?

(edit:If your thinking about the zerging Destroyers, I've seen it)

vlad78
07-02-2007, 09:51
I don't have it, I have just seen someone play with it and I took a look at the book. They have really few choices, and most are really powerful.

Heavy fire power, astounding resilience, even astounding mobility. Marines suffer quite a lot against necrons. Only weakness, phase out.

Vlad

Vaktathi
07-02-2007, 10:10
They do have great resilience, but not the all around verstility.

I have the Necron codex, their choices are powerful, but not as versatile.

With Necrons, marines can generally get in more firepower in the same amount of points, due to necrons increased cost, thus for a unit of 10 warriors you can have 10 space marines with a lascannon and plasma gun that will also generally do better in CC. Necrons have WBB true, but that still doesnt give them the same versatility. Necrons are really good against troops and decent against vehicles if they can get in enough 6's when shooting. Marines will generally do better in CC due to higher initiative and more CC weapons and armory options, and can do Just as well in shooting (minus Gauss effect) with respect to troops, and I personally would rather have the Lascannon for tank/IC's than having to rely on Gauss. Necrons basically rely on WBB and Gauss for their versatility and effectivness, WBB can be negated and finicky, and Gauss cannot be relied on effectivley, Marines have ATSKNF and heavy weapons that for the most part just need to hit to do the job instead of rely on Gauss effects. Necrons mostly have to rely on range and shootiness and dont have many Deep striking/inflitrating units bar Flayed ones and Scarabs. (I'm also all for Necrons getting a new dex, they need some reworking)

vlad78
07-02-2007, 10:42
You forgot about monolith of doom (which can also redeploy troops) , destroyers like you said an the speed of wraiths allowing them to stop you from firing by engaging squads in Hth very quickly and the little thing their boss have allowing them to redeploy their troops. (I forgot the name)

By the way , necrons are fearless.

Marine have a better chance in hth (especially with PF) but it is still very hard.
Play against them, try.
Everything is high priority target. A battle against crons is like a race against the clock.

Army choices are few, it seems hard to be really wrong. I'm sure in 5 mn I can make a list able to handle yours. You only have 4 las cannons against a monolith. Then it's just a story of tactics.

And I'm also sure that if you take quickly a bit of everything in orks, eldars or whatever codex, you can do well against yours because you lack of mobility.

Therefore IMHO the marine list isn't broken in itself. Limiting the numbers of AC (or nerfing it WITHOUT FORBIDDING TERMIS TO TAKE A 2ND hEAVY WEAPON other than AC) and min maxing las plas squads seems enough.

Vlad

Angelus Mortis
07-02-2007, 10:43
I dont see it as being a powergamers list at all. If anything that title belongs to the Chaos lists. True, the Space Marines have some very nice options, wargear, abilities, etc, but if they didn't, well, they wouldn't be living up to the hype of being the most feared bad asses in the galaxy now would they? I think they finally got exactly what they deserved for being Space Marines and the current codex finally does them justice.


Necrons have WBB true, but that still doesnt give them the same versatility.Marine bolters dont cause automatic wounds on 6s or glance land raiders on 6s though. I would call that pretty dang versitile IMHO. I mean, how could you claim not versitile when your basic troop is a walking AP/AT weapon platform that is tough as nails and just wont stay dead? Sure theres not much variety, but so what? You got all the bases covered.


I challenge anyone to throw out an army list from any other codex that can be as efficient and versatile in 20 mins without taking any special army rules with no previous familiarity with the codex.Ok. So thats about 3 people in the world who play WH40k. Thats a pretty narrow challenge. You know, just about anyone who gets into 40k generally is very interested in all the lists and studies them. Not just to decide what they want to play, but how to play against them. Anyways, if your point is any drunken retarded monkey can win with Space Marines then I'm going to have to throw a B.S. flag on that play. I agree they are more forgiving, but that doesn't mean your garaunteed a win. They dont fight on autopilot.


By the way , necrons are fearless.Only Pariahs, Ctan, Scarabs and Tomb Spyders are fearless. Granted all the rest are Ld 10, you may as well call them fearless, well, unless you got a Cullexus within 12". All others follow the normal psychology rules. (Now if you want to talk broken rules, lets talk psychology)

machine_recovered_meat
07-02-2007, 11:14
Ok. So thats about 3 people in the world who play WH40k. Thats a pretty narrow challenge. You know, just about anyone who gets into 40k generally is very interested in all the lists and studies them. Not just to decide what they want to play, but how to play against them. Anyways, if your point is any drunken retarded monkey can win with Space Marines then I'm going to have to throw a B.S. flag on that play. I agree they are more forgiving, but that doesn't mean your garaunteed a win. They dont fight on autopilot.


I agree. I suspect that one of the reasons that marines tend to get nailed at alot of tournaments is because there is the mentality that they are capable of victory by 'just turning up'.

Vaktathi
07-02-2007, 11:37
You forgot about monolith of doom (which can also redeploy troops) , destroyers like you said an the speed of wraiths allowing them to stop you from firing by engaging squads in Hth very quickly and the little thing their boss have allowing them to redeploy their troops. (I forgot the name) Yes monoliths can redeploy troops, this is one of the great advantages of the Necron codex, but you have to be within 18" of the monolith. and Wraiths are also great units, but VERY expensive and very small in number (not good for phase out reasons), and you generally dont see them in most Necron lists.


By the way , necrons are fearless. Negatory. Necrons are NOT fearless. (I've got the codex in front of me) All their units are LD10, but as long as an SM army has a Commander-Master on the field, they are pretty much all LD 10 too


Marine have a better chance in hth (especially with PF) but it is still very hard.
Play against them, try.
Everything is high priority target. A battle against crons is like a race against the clock. I primarily play guard so my experience with marines has been essentially slaughter in CC, whereas with Necrons if you can get in enough STR 3 power weapon attacks that manage to wound, they dont get back up, and you can do it before the necrons strike back.


Army choices are few, it seems hard to be really wrong. I'm sure in 5 mn I can make a list able to handle yours. You only have 4 las cannons against a monolith. Then it's just a story of tactics.

I didnt say "build a list to beat this one" I asked to make a better all comers list, able to deal with anything thrown at it. And 4 lascannons against a monolith should see it down quickly, AV14, even on a monolith, isnt THAT hard with 4 STR9 weapons and 6 STR 6 heavy 4 rending weapons. With Necrons you usually have to base out


And I'm also sure that if you take quickly a bit of everything in orks, eldars or whatever codex, you can do well against yours because you lack of mobility. I didnt say it was an invincible list, but being able to keep 23 heavy infantry in reserve to Deep Strike can counter mobility units, and Assault Cannons would make murder of Orks (Desperatley need a new codex,really bad) and Eldar in that situation, at least until the Starcannons came to bear.


Therefore IMHO the marine list isn't broken in itself. Limiting the numbers of AC (or nerfing it WITHOUT FORBIDDING TERMIS TO TAKE A 2ND hEAVY WEAPON other than AC) and min maxing las plas squads seems enough.
If you toss in a cost increase for assault cannons and tac Squad lascannons I'd agree with you for the most part, I dont find 2 Termi heavy weapons to be in any way inappropriate by itself, its just that nobody takes the Heavy Flamer or Cyclone because the assault cannon is so much better and fairly cheap(there still remains the 1000pt DS dreadnaught army of doom however, but that can also be fixed)





I dont see it as being a powergamers list at all. If anything that title belongs to the Chaos lists. True, the Space Marines have some very nice options, wargear, abilities, etc, but if they didn't, well, they wouldn't be living up to the hype of being the most feared bad asses in the galaxy now would they? I think they finally got exactly what they deserved for being Space Marines and the current codex finally does them justice. I didnt say that Space Marines can't be the Space Marines we all love, but that doesnt mean they should be the best army(in game terms) out there either (in a perfect world they'd all be balanced, and I'm not saying that Marines are necessarily the "best" Codex either, just trying to make a point)


Marine bolters dont cause automatic wounds on 6s or glance land raiders on 6s though. I would call that pretty dang versitile IMHO. I mean, how could you claim not versitile when your basic troop is a walking AP/AT weapon platform that is tough as nails and just wont stay dead? Sure theres not much variety, but so what? You got all the bases covered. I didnt say that Necrons werent versatile, I was trying to make the case that Marines could be effective in pretty much any situation. When it comes down to bolters VS Gauss weapons hell yeah Gauss weapons are better, but when its Bolters +Plasma gun/Meltagun/Flamer + Lascannon/Missile launcher/heavy bolter for slightly less points things start to change. Add to this that Marines have a higher initiative and access to more/better CC gear and you can see where I meant that Marines are a better all around unit.


Ok. So thats about 3 people in the world who play WH40k. Thats a pretty narrow challenge. You know, just about anyone who gets into 40k generally is very interested in all the lists and studies them. Not just to decide what they want to play, but how to play against them. Anyways, if your point is any drunken retarded monkey can win with Space Marines then I'm going to have to throw a B.S. flag on that play. I agree they are more forgiving, but that doesn't mean your garaunteed a win. They dont fight on autopilot.
I didnt say that Marines=automatic win. My point was that it is very easy to make a very competitive Marine list. It took me 20 mins to make that list I posted above using *TWO* different units in total besides the HQ characters. It took me about 2 hours to make a decent list with the new Eldar codex (although that may also be due to the horrible layout, descriptions in one place, points values at the end of the book) and it took me FOREVER to make a decent Guard list. I was trying to make the point that Marines are easier to make powerful lists than it is with other armies. It's totally possible to make a balanced, fun marine list, most players do it this way, but its comparativley easier to make an OP list with marines than it is with say, Guard/Tau/Tyranids(yes even nidzilla) etc. Every list can be abused, I am not denying that in any way (Guard at high points levels get particularly retartedly powerful as their individual FoC slots can be made HUGE and then mechanized/boosted save/shooting rerolls etc) But its just easiest to do it with marines by far.

EDIT: after this lets try and not have Necrons be the sole comparison here as this thread is starting to derail into just a Necrons VS Marines thread instead of a "why are marines looked at as a powerlist" thread.

Angelus Mortis
07-02-2007, 12:05
Yes monoliths can redeploy troops, this is one of the great advantages of the Necron codex, but you have to be within 18" of the monolith. and Wraiths are also great units, but VERY expensive and very small in number (not good for phase out reasons), and you generally dont see them in most Necron lists. You know 18" is a good chunk of the board if you put the Monolith near the center. That gives it a circle 3 feet in diameter.


I primarily play guard so my experience with marines has been essentially slaughter in CC, whereas with Necrons if you can get in enough STR 3 power weapon attacks that manage to wound, they dont get back up, and you can do it before the necrons strike back.Unless they have a res orb.


I didnt say it was an invincible list, but being able to keep 23 heavy infantry in reserve to Deep Strike can counter mobility units, and Assault Cannons would make murder of Orks (Desperatley need a new codex,really bad) and Eldar in that situation, at least until the Starcannons came to bear.Sure they could, if it wasn't for the fact that they can't move the turn they come in, the incredible commoness of AP2 weaponry, and the fact that they could deepstrike to within 1" of the enemy or worse and wipe out your entire unit before they even get deployed. I shouldn't have to point out how rare it is for all of them to come in on the same turn and how ironic it is that more often than that you get units that never even make their reserve rolls for the whole game.


If you toss in a cost increase for assault cannons and tac Squad lascannons I'd agree with you for the most part, I dont find 2 Termi heavy weapons to be in any way inappropriate by itself, its just that nobody takes the Heavy Flamer or Cyclone because the assault cannon is so much better and fairly cheap(there still remains the 1000pt DS dreadnaught army of doom however, but that can also be fixed)I agree that the HF and CYC are less common, but I hardly think this is the solution. I think the HF and CYC are very nice weapons in the appropriate situations. My standard is to have a HF and an AC in my squads. I think players as a general rule of thumb dismiss the flamer out of hand, due to its limited range. But I can attest from experience that two flamers are far nastier than 2 Assault Cannons vs. rank and file. I never leave home without it.


I didnt say that Space Marines can't be the Space Marines we all love, but that doesnt mean they should be the best army(in game terms) out there either (in a perfect world they'd all be balanced, and I'm not saying that Marines are necessarily the "best" Codex either, just trying to make a point)I see your point, but I disagree with your conclusion. I don't think they are unbalanced at all. Perhaps its just your playing with a bunch of min/maxers? IMHO, min-maxers are easy to beat once you see the way they like to buy their lists.


I didnt say that Necrons werent versatile, I was trying to make the case that Marines could be effective in pretty much any situation. Actually you did. You said:
They do have great resilience, but not the all around verstility... I have the Necron codex, their choices are powerful, but not as versatile.Not trying to bust your chops, but that is what you said.


When it comes down to bolters VS Gauss weapons hell yeah Gauss weapons are better, but when its Bolters +Plasma gun/Meltagun/Flamer + Lascannon/Missile launcher/heavy bolter for slightly less points things start to change. Add to this that Marines have a higher initiative and access to more/better CC gear and you can see where I meant that Marines are a better all around unit.Ok. So for the same cost as a 10 man Tac Squad with 3 Plas and a Thunder Hammer you get 13 Warriors with 13 Gauss Weapons that wont stay dead. Sure the I2 blows, but this is more than made up for by not staying dead and a res orb to garauntee it. Are you sure your not trying to make the point that the Necrons are the uber list?


I didnt say that Marines=automatic win. My point was that it is very easy to make a very competitive Marine list. It took me 20 mins to make that list I posted above using *TWO* different units in total besides the HQ characters. It took me about 2 hours to make a decent list with the new Eldar codex (although that may also be due to the horrible layout, descriptions in one place, points values at the end of the book) and it took me FOREVER to make a decent Guard list. I was trying to make the point that Marines are easier to make powerful lists than it is with other armies. It's totally possible to make a balanced, fun marine list, most players do it this way, but its comparativley easier to make an OP list with marines than it is with say, Guard/Tau/Tyranids(yes even nidzilla) etc. Every list can be abused, I am not denying that in any way (Guard at high points levels get particularly retartedly powerful as their individual FoC slots can be made HUGE and then mechanized/boosted save/shooting rerolls etc) But its just easiest to do it with marines by far.You didnt say it but the implication is there. I would argue that any player who has a few games under his belt could do this with most lists. Heck, I can even do it with Orks or Dark Eldar and I have rarely seen them played or played them myself. It doesnt take all that long to figure out that all you need is a HQ and a ton of troops w/some weapon options.

EDIT: Sure it takes a while when a new Codex comes out, because you have to digest all the changes and nuances of how the rules work. But after you play the list or against the list a few times, its nothing to make a competative list. I made this one for a 2k IG to cite an example of a list competative vs. the SM list you made earlier. It took me as long as it took between this post time and the edit time.

2000 Pts - Imperial Guard Roster - Unnamed

HQ: Command Platoon (1#, )
0 Command Platoon
0 Command Squad
1 Senior Officer
Close Combat Weapon; Laspistol
4 Guardsmen
Lasgun (x4)

Troops: Infantry Platoon (31#, )
0 Infantry Platoon
0 Command Squad
1 Junior Officer
Close Combat Weapon; Laspistol
4 Guardsmen
Lasgun (x1); Plasmagun (x3)
9 Infantry Squad
Lasgun (x7); Plasmagun; Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant
Laspistol & CCW
9 Infantry Squad
Lasgun (x7); Plasmagun; Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant
Laspistol & CCW
9 Infantry Squad
Lasgun (x7); Plasmagun; Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant
Laspistol & CCW

Troops: Infantry Platoon (31#, )
0 Infantry Platoon
0 Command Squad
1 Junior Officer
Close Combat Weapon; Laspistol
4 Guardsmen
Lasgun (x1); Plasmagun (x3)
9 Infantry Squad
Lasgun (x7); Plasmagun; Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant
Laspistol & CCW
9 Infantry Squad
Lasgun (x7); Plasmagun; Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant
Laspistol & CCW
9 Infantry Squad
Lasgun (x7); Plasmagun; Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant
Laspistol & CCW

Troops: Infantry Platoon (31#, )
0 Infantry Platoon
0 Command Squad
1 Junior Officer
Close Combat Weapon; Laspistol
4 Guardsmen
Lasgun (x1); Plasmagun (x3)
9 Infantry Squad
Lasgun (x7); Plasmagun; Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant
Laspistol & CCW
9 Infantry Squad
Lasgun (x7); Plasmagun; Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant
Laspistol & CCW
9 Infantry Squad
Lasgun (x7); Plasmagun; Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant
Laspistol & CCW

Heavy Support: Leman Russ Battle Tank (1#, )
1 Leman Russ Battle Tank
Battle Cannon; Hull Mounted Lascannon; Sponson Heavy Bolter

Heavy Support: Leman Russ Battle Tank (1#, )
1 Leman Russ Battle Tank
Battle Cannon; Hull Mounted Lascannon; Sponson Heavy Bolter

Heavy Support: Heavy Weapons Platoon (14#, )
1 Heavy Weapons Platoon
0 Command Squad
1 Junior Officer
Close Combat Weapon; Laspistol
4 Guardsmen
Lasgun (x2); Plasmagun (x2)
6 Anti-Tank Squad
Lasgun (x3); Lascannon (x3)
6 Fire Support Squad
Lasgun (x3); Heavy Bolter (x3)

Fast Attack: Hellhound (1#, )
1 Hellhound
Inferno Cannon; Hull Mounted Heavy Bolter

Elite: Storm Troopers (10#, )
9 Storm Troopers
Hellgun w/targeter (x7); Plasmagun (x2); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades
1 Veteran Sergeant
Close Combat Weapon; Plasma Pistol; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades

Elite: Storm Troopers (10#, )
9 Storm Troopers
Hellgun w/targeter (x7); Plasmagun (x2); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades
1 Veteran Sergeant
Close Combat Weapon; Plasma Pistol; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades

Total Roster Cost: 1997

Thats 151 models.
26 Plasma Weapons.
2 Nasty Large Blast templates.
Probably the nastiest flamer template in the game.
9 Missile Launchers.
5 Lascannons
5 Heavy Bolters
2 Units that either Deepstrike or Infiltrate depending on your whim.

This list would be very competative vs. the SM list you presented. And thats just based on the sheer number advantage. Not to mention the fact that its got enough AP2/3 weapons to take out half the list you presented in one good turn of shooting. Heck, the 2 large blasts can elimnate an entire squad in one shot.

Gutlord Grom
07-02-2007, 13:09
I think that beats a Marine army pretty bad.

Stingray_tm
07-02-2007, 13:15
Aside from the Asscannon/LasPlas list i wouldn't consider Space Marines cheesy or broken.

But it is a fact, that they are very forgiving and don't need as much of tactical thinking as some other armies.

A Tac squad can theoretically kill ANYTHING in the game. Against bad opponents you can move your Marines and decide what to attack with them later on. And if you move them into dangerous positions, they will propably survive anyway, so you can correct your error.
You can't do that with swarmy needs for example. (Ever tried to kill a tank with Gaunts...?). One mistake even at deployment can cost you the game.

Vic
07-02-2007, 16:25
Here's the thing: SM ALWAYS have numbers against them. They cant kill things fast enough to come out on top all the time.

So tactics do have to come into play. And that not so uber uber list you have can be easily defeated. Dumping so much into high cost troops (termies) means you have less dakka dakka going on, which in turn means any army with numbers and a semi decent general can have their way with them (someone mentioned a drunk monkey with the runs - that would work).

wingedserpant
07-02-2007, 17:24
There are parts of the list can be abused eg assualt cannons, choosing trait disadvantages when they have no effect so they can get more advantages and multiple libarians can be nasty like a previous poster stated. There are just certain parts that are broken.

Angelus Mortis
07-02-2007, 18:15
There are parts of the list can be abused eg assualt cannons, choosing trait disadvantages when they have no effect so they can get more advantages and multiple libarians can be nasty like a previous poster stated. There are just certain parts that are broken.

Oh, so what your saying is that its exactly the same as every other codex? :D

Vaktathi
07-02-2007, 18:17
You know 18" is a good chunk of the board if you put the Monolith near the center. That gives it a circle 3 feet in diameter. Yes, yes it is, can't deny that, but a monolith isnt always going to be in such a strategic position.


Unless they have a res orb. Yes that's true, but those also have their limitations and depend on having a lord close by, something that also isnt always going to happen.


Sure they could, if it wasn't for the fact that they can't move the turn they come in, the incredible commoness of AP2 weaponry, and the fact that they could deepstrike to within 1" of the enemy or worse and wipe out your entire unit before they even get deployed. I shouldn't have to point out how rare it is for all of them to come in on the same turn and how ironic it is that more often than that you get units that never even make their reserve rolls for the whole game. Yes, all valid points, but that doesnt diminish the fact that DSing 2 assault cannons can be rather murderous compared with *most* other DSing units (since I know it will come up, yes DSing Obliterators can be silly as well, but still wont get off 8 Str6 rending shots)


I agree that the HF and CYC are less common, but I hardly think this is the solution. I think the HF and CYC are very nice weapons in the appropriate situations. My standard is to have a HF and an AC in my squads. I think players as a general rule of thumb dismiss the flamer out of hand, due to its limited range. But I can attest from experience that two flamers are far nastier than 2 Assault Cannons vs. rank and file. I never leave home without it. I've never seen a list with heavy flamers on Termi's, and very rarely Cyclones, why take cyclones when your assault cannon can accomplish the same thing?


I see your point, but I disagree with your conclusion. I don't think they are unbalanced at all. Perhaps its just your playing with a bunch of min/maxers? IMHO, min-maxers are easy to beat once you see the way they like to buy their lists. Min/Maxing by itsels isnt a big deal

Actually you did. You said: Not trying to bust your chops, but that is what you said. Let me clarify, Necrons are good versatile shooting units, Marines tend to be versatile at both shooting and CC.


Ok. So for the same cost as a 10 man Tac Squad with 3 Plas and a Thunder Hammer you get 13 Warriors with 13 Gauss Weapons that wont stay dead. Sure the I2 blows, but this is more than made up for by not staying dead and a res orb to garauntee it. Are you sure your not trying to make the point that the Necrons are the uber list? My point was that a 10 man Tac Squad with a Plasma Gun and Lascannon are (IMO as always) a more effective "all comers" unit than Necron Warriors, they can Dakka GEQ's fairly well, they can Dakka MEQ's, IC's & Vehicles fairly well, and do CC fairly well. Necrons can Dakka GEQ's well, but have to rely on good rolling to stop vehicles and IC's, and arent as good in CC, balancing this with WBB which can be negated through various methods.


You didnt say it but the implication is there. I would argue that any player who has a few games under his belt could do this with most lists. Heck, I can even do it with Orks or Dark Eldar and I have rarely seen them played or played them myself. It doesnt take all that long to figure out that all you need is a HQ and a ton of troops w/some weapon options. If I gave the implication, I didnt mean to do so. I didnt mean that Marines are a totally unbalanced army, just that they are more open to abuse than other codexes (again IMO as always)


EDIT: Sure it takes a while when a new Codex comes out, because you have to digest all the changes and nuances of how the rules work. But after you play the list or against the list a few times, its nothing to make a competative list. I made this one for a 2k IG to cite an example of a list competative vs. the SM list you made earlier. It took me as long as it took between this post time and the edit time.

2000 Pts - Imperial Guard Roster - Unnamed

HQ: Command Platoon (1#, )
0 Command Platoon
0 Command Squad
1 Senior Officer
Close Combat Weapon; Laspistol
4 Guardsmen
Lasgun (x4)

Troops: Infantry Platoon (31#, )
0 Infantry Platoon
0 Command Squad
1 Junior Officer
Close Combat Weapon; Laspistol
4 Guardsmen
Lasgun (x1); Plasmagun (x3)
9 Infantry Squad
Lasgun (x7); Plasmagun; Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant
Laspistol & CCW
9 Infantry Squad
Lasgun (x7); Plasmagun; Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant
Laspistol & CCW
9 Infantry Squad
Lasgun (x7); Plasmagun; Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant
Laspistol & CCW

Troops: Infantry Platoon (31#, )
0 Infantry Platoon
0 Command Squad
1 Junior Officer
Close Combat Weapon; Laspistol
4 Guardsmen
Lasgun (x1); Plasmagun (x3)
9 Infantry Squad
Lasgun (x7); Plasmagun; Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant
Laspistol & CCW
9 Infantry Squad
Lasgun (x7); Plasmagun; Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant
Laspistol & CCW
9 Infantry Squad
Lasgun (x7); Plasmagun; Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant
Laspistol & CCW

Troops: Infantry Platoon (31#, )
0 Infantry Platoon
0 Command Squad
1 Junior Officer
Close Combat Weapon; Laspistol
4 Guardsmen
Lasgun (x1); Plasmagun (x3)
9 Infantry Squad
Lasgun (x7); Plasmagun; Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant
Laspistol & CCW
9 Infantry Squad
Lasgun (x7); Plasmagun; Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant
Laspistol & CCW
9 Infantry Squad
Lasgun (x7); Plasmagun; Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant
Laspistol & CCW

Heavy Support: Leman Russ Battle Tank (1#, )
1 Leman Russ Battle Tank
Battle Cannon; Hull Mounted Lascannon; Sponson Heavy Bolter

Heavy Support: Leman Russ Battle Tank (1#, )
1 Leman Russ Battle Tank
Battle Cannon; Hull Mounted Lascannon; Sponson Heavy Bolter

Heavy Support: Heavy Weapons Platoon (14#, )
1 Heavy Weapons Platoon
0 Command Squad
1 Junior Officer
Close Combat Weapon; Laspistol
4 Guardsmen
Lasgun (x2); Plasmagun (x2)
6 Anti-Tank Squad
Lasgun (x3); Lascannon (x3)
6 Fire Support Squad
Lasgun (x3); Heavy Bolter (x3)

Fast Attack: Hellhound (1#, )
1 Hellhound
Inferno Cannon; Hull Mounted Heavy Bolter

Elite: Storm Troopers (10#, )
9 Storm Troopers
Hellgun w/targeter (x7); Plasmagun (x2); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades
1 Veteran Sergeant
Close Combat Weapon; Plasma Pistol; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades

Elite: Storm Troopers (10#, )
9 Storm Troopers
Hellgun w/targeter (x7); Plasmagun (x2); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades
1 Veteran Sergeant
Close Combat Weapon; Plasma Pistol; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades

Total Roster Cost: 1997

Thats 151 models.
26 Plasma Weapons.
2 Nasty Large Blast templates.
Probably the nastiest flamer template in the game.
9 Missile Launchers.
5 Lascannons
5 Heavy Bolters
2 Units that either Deepstrike or Infiltrate depending on your whim.

This list would be very competative vs. the SM list you presented. And thats just based on the sheer number advantage. Not to mention the fact that its got enough AP2/3 weapons to take out half the list you presented in one good turn of shooting. Heck, the 2 large blasts can elimnate an entire squad in one shot.


Thats a very good anti-marine list, and very similar to pretty much most anti-marine lists out there that could be good against pretty much anything, but isnt very mobile. and yes, once you know the list, its pretty easy to make a competitive, but again, you made this list with at least some previous knowledge of the codex. Another thing, slightly unrelated but still somewhat related, how much would it cost to go to a GW store and buy everything for that Guard list VS the Marine list, and how much time would it take to assemble and paint as well?

EDIT: after re-reading the list, the HQ command seems to have no purpose other than just being there because it has to be, which in an Infantry Platoon heavy guard army, is a shame because you can give it all sorts of fun stuff to support the Leadership of the guard infantry, same with the platoon HQ's, and as such, this particular list would probably be particularly vulnerable to bad Ld rolls and negative modifiers.

anyway, off to class.

(btw, I'm trying not to sound like an anti-marine zealot, if I am I apologize in advance)

EmperorEternalXIX
07-02-2007, 19:03
I'm still relatively new to the game and newer still to the forum, but I have to object to a lot of this stuff despite my unimpressive prior experience.

First, for all the saying of how forgiving my Marine army is, I have to point out that I am often on the losing end of many battles with other races. My tactics are not the perfected treadings of a veteran player, mind you, but I have much less skilled friends at times battling me with ease.

Lascannon gripes, to me, are foolish. In the end it is one single solitary shot; dangerous to vehicles sure, but if you have mostly troops then it becomes a moot point.

I don't know what the complaining of the Assault Cannons is all about either. Tyranids have rending 4 on one of their units in CC, don't they? Don't they ALL get it, and don't they get to assault from further away then other armies via their leaping? (I'm no expert but I recall seeing this at the store before).

I field a single assault cannon on my dreadnought; not for its strength but for cost efficiency and sheer number of shots. All of his other options present one strong shot, which to me is not exactly useful, because again, killing one model per round with a twin linked lascannon is not a way to make back points. I would rather have several medium shots, personally. The assault cannon has never once turned the tide of any battle, so I consider it fairly unimpressive relative to plasma.

Necrons can have destroyers putting out shots akin to the assault cannon on a bigger scale and longer distance I believe, PLUS instead of rending they have the gauss rule. PLUS they can turbo boost. PLUS they can come back to life. PLUS each person in the unit gets one. PLUS they can be teleported by the Veil of Darkness. PLUS it has tougnhess 5. PLUS they can teleport through the monolith too (not sure on that last one). No one seems to mind, even though they are faster, cheaper, and have better range than assault cannon terminators.

In the end a squad of fives termies with two AC's is 240 points; nearly a quarter of any small army and a sizable chunk of a larger one. I don't even field terminators at all for this reason; their invul save isn't enough to withstand all the ordnance, AP2, and power weapon effects that get thrown at them. In the end they seem beefy but there are a number of ways they go down and in the end they have never once returned their points for me (so far).

I'm a little surprised that no one complains about Chaos, honestly. Chaos have all the strengths of marines plus more weapon and customization options, monstrous CC capability (if you're Khorne), better vehicles (Chaos Dreads are cheaper and have more options, for example), plus some horrific monstrous creatures. They have massive wargear options and they are able to deal with many situations through brute force. The have AP3 ordnance on the Defiler, a version of the Terminator that can have every weapon at the same time, and Chaos versions of almost everything the Marines have.

The marines are flexible but I think they still require a degree of brains to use to full capacity. As I've said, I've lost plenty of matches, and the ones that I've won are only out of sound tactics on the battlefield. Nary an assault cannon in sight at 1500-2000 points.

If someone would care to enlighten me with some examples of "assault cannon cheese" I would be interested to see why everyone fears this weapon so much.

Angelus Mortis
07-02-2007, 21:35
I've never seen a list with heavy flamers on Termi's, and very rarely Cyclones, why take cyclones when your assault cannon can accomplish the same thing?The Cyclone is more reliable for AT purposes and has a longer range. As far as the Heavy Flamer is concerened, drop two of those in a squad and you will most likely be able to hit every model in the squad your shooting at twice with S5 shots before you assault them. Do this with anything Sv 4+ or worse and they probably wont have much left to assault. Best thing about the flamers is auto hitting anythign under the template. Also dont underestimate what a well place deepstrike can do to vehicle rear armor with Heavy Flamers.


My point was that a 10 man Tac Squad with a Plasma Gun and Lascannon are (IMO as always) a more effective "all comers" unit than Necron Warriors, they can Dakka GEQ's fairly well, they can Dakka MEQ's, IC's & Vehicles fairly well, and do CC fairly well. Necrons can Dakka GEQ's well, but have to rely on good rolling to stop vehicles and IC's, and arent as good in CC, balancing this with WBB which can be negated through various methods.I guess we will just have to disagree on this point, for the reasons I pointed out earlier about the Necrons all having rending weapons(for all intensive purposes) on their basic troop model as well as being hard as hell to kill, in melee or otherwise.


If I gave the implication, I didnt mean to do so. I didnt mean that Marines are a totally unbalanced army, just that they are more open to abuse than other codexes (again IMO as always)Nothing is more open to abuse than the Chaos list. Nothing.


Thats a very good anti-marine list, and very similar to pretty much most anti-marine lists out there that could be good against pretty much anything, but isnt very mobile. and yes, once you know the list, its pretty easy to make a competitive, but again, you made this list with at least some previous knowledge of the codex. Correct. And that was my point. Anyone who has played a few games can do it. It isn't a perfect list, but its very playable against not just SM but against just about any list it would fair well. As far as not being mobile is concerned, that is true. But I find to be really succesful with IG(being mostly ont he recieving end), lots and lots of flashlights do wonders.


Another thing, slightly unrelated but still somewhat related, how much would it cost to go to a GW store and buy everything for that Guard list VS the Marine list, and how much time would it take to assemble and paint as well?I cringe at the thought. :D


EDIT: after re-reading the list, the HQ command seems to have no purpose other than just being there because it has to be, which in an Infantry Platoon heavy guard army, is a shame because you can give it all sorts of fun stuff to support the Leadership of the guard infantry, same with the platoon HQ's, and as such, this particular list would probably be particularly vulnerable to bad Ld rolls and negative modifiers.Correct. But that goes back to what I was saying earlier. I find its very succesfull just to make your opponent have to roll a ton of armor saves every round. Sure, that list will take a ton of casualties, but hey, theres plenty more where they came from. As a general rule of thumb I try not to tool up IG commands too much, as even tooled up they still dont fair well. I find the points better spent on bodies.


(btw, I'm trying not to sound like an anti-marine zealot, if I am I apologize in advance)No worries. Didn't think you were. Just disagreeing with your conclusions. We can all look at the same things and come to different deductions about them. I'm just giving my opinion.

Stingray_tm
07-02-2007, 23:59
I don't know what the complaining of the Assault Cannons is all about either. Tyranids have rending 4 on one of their units in CC, don't they? Don't they ALL get it, and don't they get to assault from further away then other armies via their leaping? (I'm no expert but I recall seeing this at the store before).


Do you seriously compare a 24" range, 4 shot, strength 6 rending weapon with close combat rending?

Tyranids have very few reliable ranged anti-tank weaponry or AP2/3 weapons. The whole Tyranid army depends on rending and the enemy has 2 or 3 rounds of shooting (meaning 8-12 rending attacks per assault cannon per turn), before the rending critters are in range. And even if the asscannon doesn't rend, it's still a strenght 6 ap4 shot on a BS4 model!!!
What makes it even worse: The asscannon is better in EVERY role than ANY weapon in the Space Marine arsenal.
And the asscannon will take down skimmers, far more effectively than whole Genestealer-Squads.

The asscannon makes the game less interesting, because it is a no brainer. It makes Lascannons, Heavy Bolters and Plasmaguns obsolete, because it is better than all of these, no matter what your shooting at.

Angelus Mortis
08-02-2007, 00:42
Do you seriously compare a 24" range, 4 shot, strength 6 rending weapon with close combat rending?Compare 8 Rending shots to 36 Rending shots? No way. Theres is no comparison at all. Especially when those 36 either scuttle or infiltrate.

What makes it even worse: The asscannon is better in EVERY role than ANY weapon in the Space Marine arsenal.So its better than a Multi-melta or a Lascannon at anti-tank? Better than a flamer at shortrange anti-personnel fire? Better than Plasmacannons/Plasmaguns/Plasmapistols at anti-Power Armor work? Hardly. Its just more veritile than all these. Jack of all trades yet master of none.


And the asscannon will take down skimmers, far more effectively than whole Genestealer-Squads.Terrific. And a squad of genestealers will take down anything in melee better than an assault cannon. Dont cherry pick situations to make a point. You can do that with anything.


The asscannon makes the game less interesting, because it is a no brainer. It makes Lascannons, Heavy Bolters and Plasmaguns obsolete, because it is better than all of these, no matter what your shooting at.Me thinks you should try a little tactics and maybe put more than a single 2" tall tree in the middle of your barren board. Assault Cannons are only nasty if you let them be.

Stingray_tm
08-02-2007, 01:06
Compare 8 Rending shots to 36 Rending shots? No way. Theres is no comparison at all. Especially when those 36 either scuttle or infiltrate.

What are you talking about? Are we still talking about Tyranids? Where do Tyranids have ranged weaponry with rending?!?
But i think you are talking about Genestealers. Again: A single asscannon will statistically kill 5-6 before Genestealers are in cc... And the rest of the army will shoot them too. And they can do nothing about it.




So its better than a Multi-melta or a Lascannon at anti-tank?

Yes.
Multimelter penetrating hits at 24" against AV14: 0.11
Lascannon penetrating hits at 24" against AV14: 0.11
Asscannon penetrating hits at 24" against AV14: 0.33
Oh, and the Asscannon can kill infantry too.



Better than a flamer at shortrange anti-personnel fire?

Yes.
Flamer MEQ kills (assuming 4 models under the template): 0.83
Asscannon MEQ kills: 1.28
Flamer GEQ kills (assuming 4 models under the template): 2.66
Asscannon GEQ kills: 2.64
Oh, and the Asscannon can fire at 24" and can kill tanks.



Better than Plasmacannons/Plasmaguns/Plasmapistols at anti-Power Armor work?

Yes.
Plasmagun MEQ kills: 1.11
Asscannon MEQ kills: 1.28
Oh, and the Asscannon will not blow up in the operators face but will kill tanks too.



Terrific. And a squad of genestealers will take down anything in melee better than an assault cannon. Dont cherry pick situations to make a point. You can do that with anything.

The whole point is: You can kill ANYTHING with asscannons with ease. But Genestealers can be shot down before they reach cc and even then, they have no chance agains skimmers. Lascannons are not very usefull against hordes, etc.



Me thinks you should try a little tactics and maybe put more than a single 2" tall tree in the middle of your barren board. Assault Cannons are only nasty if you let them be.
I could say the same thing about Genestealers or Tyranids as a whole...

Gutlord Grom
08-02-2007, 01:10
Where'd you get your numbers?

Stingray_tm
08-02-2007, 01:11
Windows Calculator

Edit:

Seems, i made some small mistakes. Corrected them above.

I'll leave it to the Asscannon fans to correct my errors, i am going to bed now ;)

Angelus Mortis
08-02-2007, 01:32
What are you talking about? Are we still talking about Tyranids? Where do Tyranids have ranged weaponry with rending?!?
But i think you are talking about Genestealers. Again: A single asscannon will statistically kill 5-6 before Genestealers are in cc... And the rest of the army will shoot them too. And they can do nothing about it.Yes I was refering to Genestealers and nowhere did I say they had a ranged attack. The term I use was rending shots(prehaps a misuse of shots, but I use it interchangabley with attacks). So what if the rest of your army shoots at them. I would love that especially if my entire army was all Genestealers. And no, your not going to wipe them all out before they get into melee. Not unless the guy your playing is retarded and doesnt run them through/behind cover.


Yes.
Multimelter penetrating hits at 24" against AV14: 0.11
Lascannon penetrating hits at 24" against AV14: 0.11
Asscannon penetrating hits at 24" against AV14: 0.33
Oh, and the Asscannon can kill infantry too.Numbers are awesome. Too bad dice don't always obey the statistics. Those numbers are completely irrelevant to real life. And who the hell would shoot a multi-melta at 24"? Or a Lascannon at 24" for that matter. If you want to do that, refigure your number for the other 2 shots the Lascannon would have for him closing the 2 turns to get to 24". You didnt mention about the Plasma Weapons which can all kill vehicles and infantry quite well. And are far more consistant. Oh, by the way. Did I mention that Meltas and Lascannons insta-kill the vast majority of muti-wound models in the game? Assault Cannons can't do that.


Yes.
Flamer MEQ kills (assuming 4 models under the template): 0.83
Asscannon MEQ kills: 1.28
Flamer GEQ kills (assuming 4 models under the template): 2.66
Asscannon GEQ kills: 2.64
Oh, and the Asscannon can fire at 24" and can kill tanks.Again with the statistics. Ok, now go refigure your stats based on a flamer hitting every single model in the squad, since I dont know a single person who wouldnt maneuver to do so. You would be asking to lose if you didnt. So a flamer with 10+ hits(automatic hits I might add) vs. your possible 4(but since you like stats we will say statisticly 2).



Yes.
Plasmagun MEQ kills: 1.11
Asscannon MEQ kills: 1.28
Oh, and the Asscannon will not blow up in the operators face but will kill tanks too.Yeah and it doesnt ignore normal armor saves as a matter of normal function either unless you get lucky and roll a 6.


The whole point is: You can kill ANYTHING with asscannons with ease. But Genestealers can be shot down before they reach cc and even then, they have no chance agains skimmers. Lascannons are not very usefull against hordes, etc.I would hardly call it ease. You still need to roll 6s to hit or penatrate to even get the benefit of its special rules, not to mention 24" is not that great of range. I did say they were more versitile, but they are in no way better at the weapons designed for specific purposes.


I could say the same thing about Genestealers or Tyranids as a whole...You completely lost me here with this statement. Say the "same thing" what? That they will never make it into close combat? I have never seen that happen, and it will only happen if you play on table bereft of terrain. If you put at least 30% terrain on a board, they will get into close combat I dont care how many guns you got.

Stingray_tm
08-02-2007, 01:51
Numbers are awesome. Too bad dice don't always obey the statistics. Those numbers are completely irrelevant to real life.


Sorry, but you seem to have no idea, how statistics work.

I suggest you roll some dice 100 times for any of my given situations and track how many models get killed. Then we can talk again...

Or to use an argument you would probably use:
Lascannons suck, because "in real life" they maybe don't hit anything at all...

I already included the Asscannons needing 6s to rend and they still are superiour to Lascannons. I don't get your point of "Asscannons are bad, because they need 6s". In fact, real life math doesn't get your point...

EmperorEternalXIX
08-02-2007, 06:07
I think that there are a ton of statistics your leaving out of your theories, Sting.

First, as I said earlier, I don't even like the Assault Cannon,, and field only one on my dread, for point-saving reasons. It hasn't gotten a rending kill in three games, and if it gets locked in CC it's out of the equation entirely, and I would never ever even consider firing the thing at a vehicle when I have much better suited gear for such things.

But to get to my original point, I think there are a lot of factors you're leaving out.

Bottom line, I think you are just a dude who isn't using the terrain or his abilities carefully or correctly against this weapon, and you are taking a pounding from an army with superior mobility, and your just upset about it. After all, that last response makes it clear that reason and debate have given way to being facetious. But I ain't holding it against you man--I felt the same way about most stuff in the game. I thought Khorne berserkers were BS; then I found the counter. I thought Eldar had some BS; then I found a counter. I thought monstrous creatures were BS; then I found a counter. It's all about being clever and prepared. If you go out there with a slow, cumbersome army and march it to assault cannon range against an enemy who's got a squad of landspeeders with AC's mounted and superior mobility...well you deserve to get kibbled, in that case.

When you factor in the full facts about the weapon it becomes much less terrifying than you've made it out to be. Firstly, you act like there are no other strength 6 weapons in the whole game with that kind of range and AP. That's just not true; there are plenty of scarier things out there. Secondly, and more importantly, you seem to be assuming a degree of indefinite success that just doesn't happen. Statistics cannot apply in a game with so many x-factors.

As an example: An assault cannon gets 4 shots, and is a heavy weapon. Only terminators, land speeders, and maybe some vehicles can use them (i.e. dreads). To put it bluntly, there can't be more than a relatively low number of assault cannons in an SM list. The point ineffectiveness of this is appallingly apparent everywhere except in the dread (who has it by default), everywhere else its point cost is enough to ensure your already low marine count will be notably lower. Every assault cannon is two less marines; ultimately those shots are not going to help you with that low a body count.

The only place where this is apparently useful is on landspeeders, where it both increases the amount of shots they get as well as being highly mobile. Landspeeder armor is pathetic; even bolters can potentially destroy them. So it's worth noting that any army worth its salt can easily kill these by the end of the first turn with long-range weapons, ordnance, missiles, etc. Even if you can't get rid of these, you can always make use of cover and keep yourself safe until you can get a better line of fire.

Okay, the landspeeders are dealt with (again, at 80 points a piece they don't come cheap, for how easily they die. Most likely there will only be one squad of three, unless your opponent is just trying to spam the assault cannon variant, in which case you should be using cover to your advantage).

Next up, the dreadnought. Armies don't always field more than one or two of these in my (admittedly limited) experience, simply because they can be engaged in close combat and they can be taken out of the game easily with inexpensive throwaway units. Using the earlier tyranid example, you could undoubtedly tie up the dreads in CC with "Without Number" models with impunity. Also the dreadnought is slow, thus vulnerable in the open, and it will be trying to utilize cover for its approach, making it easy to cut it off with high penetration fire after the immediate land speeder threat is downed. Regardless, if a dread is in assault cannon range by the second turn you are running right towards it and deserve to die.

Then you have the terminators. High AP fire, ordnance barrages, templates, and all that et cetera. Through a monstrous creature their way, or peg them with blast templates and melt the assault cannons first. If they're in assault cannon range they are also in multimelta range and can easily be obliterated by melta weapons. Or you can engage them in CC; they are so expensive to field that a power weapon or two in their midst can quickly take 450ish points out of the game, and their power fist initiative makes them able to be bludgeoned to death before they even swing back.

This is all of course not including any army's special tactics or gear that is aimed towards these situations. Either way most of these can be solved or dealt with long before the AC is in range; if it can't, it can be locked in CC and taken out of the equation for a turn or two, regardless.

If you make all of those mistakes and tactical missteps, only THEN does the weapon's power come into play. Even then, you have overhyped it a bit. In the end there can't be more than like 5 of them realistically; any more than that and it'll be obvious by your opponent's army case being filled with landspeeders, and in that scenario you simply don't play with the dude.

Or do what I'd do, and introduce him to plasma, and ruin his day.

Regardless, the point again shows that your statistics (which are flawed, because statistically there is a randomness spread in either direction from even the most solid figures) are only problematic when the enemy is left to his own volitions. With the right pressure, deployment, and target selection, most of these things can be eliminated, in some cases before these "cheesy" assault cannons even fire.

When they DO fire, you will oftentimes get an armor save, and statistically, failing rolls (1's and 2's) are twice as likely to land as rending rolls anyhow.

Many factors to consider. You are only thinking of the dice rolls; what about terrain, position, your own invulnerable saves, your counter offensive tactics, special abilities, etc?

In the end I seriously doubt an army maxed out on assault cannons would be as invincible as you seem to imply.

Stingray_tm
08-02-2007, 09:16
I never said, that Asscannons are IW beardy. I said, that Asscannons are no brainer options, that make the game less interesting and that the typical multiple Landspeeders, min/maxed Tac squad is cheesy, not a single Asscannon alone.

Your Asscannons didn't do anything in your games and you didn't fire at vehicles? Well that doesn't mean that they are not great against vehicles and usually are better than Lascannons. Of course there are statistical variations, but the same applies to Lascannons too, which could misfire during the whole game. (Happened to a IG player recently, who wouldn't hit my Carnifex for 6 turns). Personal experience is not an argument, when it comes to statistics.

A lot of people seem to be impressed by the Lascannons high strenght. But they forget: The Lascannon has only one shot, the Asscannon has 4 shots, which eliminates the drawback of a lower strength.
What i didn't even mention until now: In theory (but very improbable) the Asscannon could achieve 4 penetrating hits on a vehicle in one turn or kill a Carnifex in one turn. Try that with a Lascannon/Plasmaweapon...
Use some dice, try it out.

ORKY ARD BOYZ
08-02-2007, 09:54
I like your argument about asscannons being able to kill basically anything but they arem ounted on skimmers, terminators and dreadnoughts. (Baal Predator if you're blood angels,) These units are high priority targets to most players because they either cost a lot compared to ordinary troops and can be killed easily with any AP 2 high strength weapon or they're a vehicle and are essentially a one wound model with high toughness. The weapon platforms of assualt cannons can be destroyed fairly easily, almost every list had a weapon with AP 2 or ignores armor saves. It cant be that hard to kill terminators can it?

Asq_Dak
08-02-2007, 10:14
Trouble with the ass cannon is it cannot hurt a monolith as it is immune to the rending effect - Isn't there a guard vehicle upgrade that has a similar effect too? Against other armour 14:

Within 12" MM chance to penetrate (glance) = 1 shot kill:0.389 (0.093) = 0.210
Within 12" AC chance to penetrate (glance) = 1 shot kill: 0.296 (0.074) = 0.160
Within 12" LC chance to penetrate (glance) = 1 shot kill: 0.111 (0.111) = 0.074

Within 24" MM chance to penetrate (glance) = 1 shot kill:0.000 (0.111) = 0.019
Within 24" AC chance to penetrate (glance) = 1 shot kill: 0.296 (0.074) = 0.160
Within 24" LC chance to penetrate (glance) = 1 shot kill: 0.111 (0.111) = 0.074

Within 48" MM chance to penetrate (glance) = 1 shot kill:0.000 (0.000) = 0.000
Within 48" AC chance to penetrate (glance) = 1 shot kill: 0.000 (0.000) = 0.000
Within 48" LC chance to penetrate (glance) = 1 shot kill: 0.111 (0.111) = 0.074

The multimelta is the master of vehicle popping, but you need to get to 12". The ass cannon performs very well up to 24", but the lascannon takes the prize beyond this range. How can you declare the assault cannon the absolute best?


Flamer MEQ kills (assuming 4 models under the template): 0.83
Asscannon MEQ kills: 1.28
Flamer GEQ kills (assuming 4 models under the template): 2.66
Asscannon GEQ kills: 2.64
Oh, and the Asscannon can fire at 24" and can kill tanks.

OK, don't quite get the flamer statistics here at all.

S4 flamer vs T4 MEQs (assuming 4 hits): 0.67 kills.
S5 heavy flamer vs T4 MEQs (assuming 4 hits): 0.89 kills.
Ass cannon vs T4 MEQs: 1.22 kills (breakdown: 4 shots x {[3/6 hits x 5/6 wounds x 1/3 failed saves] + [1/6 rending]}

S4 flamer vs T3 GEQs (assuming 4 hits): 2.67 kills.
S5 heavy flamer vs T3 GEQs (assuming 4 hits): 3.33 kills.
Ass cannon vs T3 GEQs: 2.33 kills (breakdown: 4 shots x {[3/6 hits x 5/6 wounds] + [1/6 rending]}

Now let's consider both in 4+ cover:

S4 flamer vs T4 MEQs (assuming 4 hits): 0.67 kills.
S5 heavy flamer vs T4 MEQs (assuming 4 hits): 0.89 kills.
Ass cannon vs T4 MEQs: 0.89 kills (breakdown: 4 shots x {[3/6 hits x 5/6 wounds x 1/3 failed saves] + [1/6 rending x 1/2 failed cover]}

S4 flamer vs T3 GEQs (assuming 4 hits): 2.67 kills.
S5 heavy flamer vs T3 GEQs (assuming 4 hits): 3.33 kills.
Ass cannon vs T3 GEQs: 1.17 kills (breakdown: 4 shots x {[3/6 hits x 5/6 wounds x 1/2 failed cover] + [1/6 rending x 1/2 failed cover]}

The ass cannon doesn't look anywhere near as good at this now. BUT it does have a 24" range compare to approx 8.5". Again I would hardly call the ass cannon the absolute best... Especially when one considers that flamers can score MORE than 4 hits...

I feel that people who consider ass cannons no brainer options don't actually consider the full potency of the army they could achieve if they forgoed taking ass cannons, especially when you consider you play on a table with terrain and line of sight restrictions... Flamers and multimeltas are under rated, which I suppose is why such things perform so well in my army - people just don't anticipate the threat.

Back on topic: I don't know why people think marines are broken, perhaps it is because they consider aspects of the marine list in isolation without actually considering what effects people can get when using the combined army as a whole with supporting units etc.

Oh, and for that marine army with two adamantine mantles in it - can't be done as you can only take 1 relic. As a take all comers army, it would perform ok - better if you had some more flamers!

Angelus Mortis
08-02-2007, 10:58
Sorry, but you seem to have no idea, how statistics work.

I suggest you roll some dice 100 times for any of my given situations and track how many models get killed. Then we can talk again...

I suggest you read this thread.

Roll a lot of 1's? (http://http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65531)

I would take his stats over yours any day. After you read that come back and we will talk about how dice really roll.

Stingray_tm
08-02-2007, 11:50
I suggest you read this thread.

Roll a lot of 1's? (http://http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65531)

I would take his stats over yours any day. After you read that come back and we will talk about how dice really roll.

What kind of logic is that supposed to be?!?

"I use faulty equipment, therefore the laws of physics and math are wrong."?

Angelus Mortis
08-02-2007, 11:54
What kind of logic is that supposed to be?!?

"I use faulty equipment, therefore the laws of physics and math are wrong."?
Try reading the trhread then come back and talk to us. If you read the thread then you would get it. And I trust a instructor at a college's "faulty logic" better than yours. The only fault here is, you thinking that dice always roll averages and theres no randomness involved. Not to mention this guys actual study of dice in a lab(albiet I think it was terribly unethical and a waste of educational funds and time, but thats a different debate, damage is done) is far more accurate than your 4th grade math and omitting of factors that hurt your argument.

Stingray_tm
08-02-2007, 12:05
What are you talking about? The point of the thread is: "Don't buy low quality dice." Not: "Statistics are wrong, because we use a faulty method of randomization."

Angelus Mortis
08-02-2007, 12:12
What are you talking about? The point of the thread is: "Don't buy low quality dice." Not: "Statistics are wrong, because we use a faulty method of randomization."Ok smart guy. How many people do you know that went out and put out over $100 for the right dice? :rolleyes:

Stingray_tm
08-02-2007, 12:39
Ok smart guy. How many people do you know that went out and put out over $100 for the right dice? :rolleyes:

Propably as many people as care about minor statistical inaccuracies and argue, that Assault Cannons are statistically not as powerfull, because you roll 2 ones more in 100 rolls, than you are supposed to... (Which applies to Lascannons aswell, BTW).

So i still don't see the point.

Angelus Mortis
08-02-2007, 13:03
Propably as many people as care about minor statistical inaccuracies and argue, that Assault Cannons are statistically not as powerfull, because you roll 2 ones more in 100 rolls, than you are supposed to... (Which applies to Lascannons aswell, BTW).

So i still don't see the point.Ok I will explain it to you, as either you aren't just getting it or your refusing to. As explained in the thread I just linked above, the dice design is a factor in how often they roll the stat averages. To get them to even remotely reflect the statistical averages, they must be of a certain type that cost on average $5 per single die as they are specialty dice. The ones just about everyone uses are the game store bought ones that do not reflect the statistical averages you stated earlier because of design flaw.

So, in short, unless someone has payed around $100 for those specialty dice(as you would need at least 20 dice to play decent sized games without irritating your opponent), the store bought average dice that the vast majority of players(most likely 99%) use will not reflect those stats you posted earlier. Thats the point. So please, stop with the math lessons as they are totally irrelevant. But stats aside, anyone who has played a couple games against or using SM could of told you that through experience.

Stingray_tm
08-02-2007, 13:26
Sorry, but you really get your numbers wrong all the way and are arguing with irrelevant technicalities.

The manufacturing related problems have almost no impact on the statistics i provided.
First, they affect all weapons equally.
Second, we are talking about an error of maybe 0.02 or even less for a single roll. That doesn't change anything about the implications of the numbers.

You line of argumentation is like this: "The weather forecast models do not represent reality good enough, so i will not accept what is said in the tv news. Therefore i will not take an umbrella tomorrow even though TV sais, it will rain."
Or: "Condoms don't work at all, because there is still a risk of getting pregnant".

It's a kind of George W. Bush argumentation... Ignoring scientific facts (even though i made some miscalculations in some cases), but relying on truthiness...

Angelus Mortis
08-02-2007, 14:16
Sorry, but you really get your numbers wrong all the way and are arguing with irrelevant technicalities.

The manufacturing related problems have almost no impact on the statistics i provided.
First, they affect all weapons equally.
Second, we are talking about an error of maybe 0.02 or even less for a single roll. That doesn't change anything about the implications of the numbers.

So what your saying is you either a)didn't bother to read the thread I posted or b)dismissed it out of hand. Fair enough. Then I shall just dismiss your further posts on this thread out of hand. You sound like a very angry person.

Stingray_tm
08-02-2007, 14:21
So what your saying is you either a)didn't bother to read the thread I posted or b)dismissed it out of hand. Fair enough. Then I shall just dismiss your further posts on this thread out of hand. You sound like a very angry person.

That is ridiculous...

Again, i suggest you play 200 games. Always with the same enemy using a Landraider. In 100 games you only use Lascannons to blow up the tank, in the other 100 you use only (the same amount of) Asscannon. Note it down. Look at the results.

Cirenivel
08-02-2007, 14:24
i wil have to side with Stingray on this case, the arguments Angelus Mortis is making are just ridicoulus

Cirenivel

EmperorEternalXIX
08-02-2007, 15:47
I still fail to see how this is a problem, but not for the reasons you are all squabbling over. My only point is that I've seen several other things in the game with multiple rending attacks; I've listed about a thousand ways to counter the Assault cannon itself; and there are many other factors to the Assault Cannon besides the dice.

Also, Stingray--if you read the dice thread at any depth (which it is clear you didn't), you would find that the statistics show that the dice which almost all players use (unless you bought vegas dice) consistently roll 1's at a much higher percentage than all the other numbers.

Can you seriously hurt vehicles with the rending rule? I don't remember. Either way I would still rather fire my lascannon at it.

All I'm going to say is if you are getting pounded so badly by the assault cannon you need to learn to adapt. You don't get to whine about cheese in war.

What army do you even play, anyway, that you are so crippled by this piece of gear? Do you use cover, or try to hide from the stuff? Do you prioritize the targets?

You whined earlier that las/plas squads were cheesy, too--well if plasma's cheap, assault cannons are cheap, and lascannons are cheap (which apparently you only feel is true of the SM--other races have many equivalents which you repeatedly have ignored in this discussion)...

...what are we supposed to use--harsh language?

Cirenivel
08-02-2007, 16:00
Can you seriously hurt vehicles with the rending rule? I don't remember. Either way I would still rather fire my lascannon at it.

yes you can, there's actually a better chance to penetrate AV 14 with an asscannon than with a lascannon.

Cirenivel

Stingray_tm
08-02-2007, 16:03
I still fail to see how this is a problem, but not for the reasons you are all squabbling over. My only point is that I've seen several other things in the game with multiple rending attacks; I've listed about a thousand ways to counter the Assault cannon itself; and there are many other factors to the Assault Cannon besides the dice.

The main point is not, that the Assault Cannon is too powerful (which i think it is, BTW), it's that there is no reason besides fluffyness to take anything else.



Also, Stingray--if you read the dice thread at any depth (which it is clear you didn't), you would find that the statistics show that the dice which almost all players use (unless you bought vegas dice) consistently roll 1's at a much higher percentage than all the other numbers.

It applies to all weapons. So what's the point?



Can you seriously hurt vehicles with the rending rule? I don't remember. Either way I would still rather fire my lascannon at it.

What? Why do you participate in this discussion, when you don't know the rules?



All I'm going to say is if you are getting pounded so badly by the assault cannon you need to learn to adapt. You don't get to whine about cheese in war.

Tyranids. Not every army can kill Land Raiders, Skimmers or Terminators with like an Assault Cannon...
And it's not war. It's a game.
Why do people always defend unbalanced games with comparisons to real life war? Real life war has concentration camps, nuclear bombs and mass rapes. Doesn't necessarily mean i would like to have those in a warGAME.



You whined earlier that las/plas squads were cheesy, too--well if plasma's cheap, assault cannons are cheap, and lascannons are cheap (which apparently you only feel is true of the SM--other races have many equivalents which you repeatedly have ignored in this discussion)...

...what are we supposed to use--harsh language?

Use those weapons, but in 10 man Tac Squads and include a Cyclone Missile Launcher in you Terminator squad.

Gutlord Grom
08-02-2007, 16:03
If you can get close enough. Which a smart opponent will not. Unless you think everything that carries assault cannons is invulnerable.
Assault cannons aren't as good as las cannon/ML dread.

machine_recovered_meat
08-02-2007, 16:14
yes you can, there's actually a better chance to penetrate AV 14 with an asscannon than with a lascannon.

Cirenivel

That's arguable between 12-24" [as the mulitmelta is better at <12"], and completely untrue at over 24":rolleyes:

Stingray_tm
08-02-2007, 16:15
Why should i get a specalised weapon, when i can get an Assault Cannon, that is not much worse than a specialised weapon or even better, but doesn't have the drawback of being useless outside of their very narrow field.

Yes, you can kill something with a Lascannon at 24+". Yes, a Multimelter is better at 12-". But the Assault Cannon is good enough under these circumstances too (Deep Striking Terminators? Drop Pod Dreadnaughts? Fast Skimmers?), even better at other circumstances and way better outside of the dedicated role of the other weapon.

machine_recovered_meat
08-02-2007, 16:31
Yes, you can kill something with a Lascannon at 24+". Yes, a Multimelter is better at 12-". But the Assault Cannon is good enough under these circumstances too (Deep Striking Terminators? Drop Pod Dreadnaughts? Fast Skimmers?), even better at other circumstances and way better outside of the dedicated role of the other weapon.

Err, no they're not :rolleyes:
Please explain how it's good under those circumstances when one of those circumstances mention being out of range?

If you deep strike 24.1" away from something, the assault cannon still can't shoot it.

Deepstriking landspeeders count as moving over 12" so can't fire anyway :rolleyes:

Oh my, if it's deepstriking it's not even on the table for at least a turn, if not longer :rolleyes:

The assault cannon isn't an uber weapon, it's got quite limited availability compared to the lascannon [ooh look, the compulsory army choice can have it]and it can't nail things at 48" negating most armour saves as soon as it hits and doing instant death to anything with multiple wounds and a T<5.

The way that you bleat about them anyone who didn't know better would think that all someone has to do is pick assault cannons in their army list and they automagically win.

Oh wait, they must be playing marines, so all they've got to do is turn up....

Cirenivel
08-02-2007, 16:41
If you deep strike 24.1" away from something, the assault cannon still can't shoot it.

And you can't shoot the lascannon at something further away than 48,1", i can't see the problem, don't deepstrike and just move closer


Deepstriking landspeeders count as moving over 12" so can't fire anyway :rolleyes:

Oh my, if it's deepstriking it's not even on the table for at least a turn, if not longer :rolleyes:

Then don't deepstrike.


The assault cannon isn't an uber weapon, it's got quite limited availability compared to the lascannon

So what?


[ooh look, the compulsory army choice can have it]and it can't nail things at 48" negating most armour saves as soon as it hits and doing instant death to anything with multiple wounds and a T<5.

relevance?


The way that you bleat about them anyone who didn't know better would think that all someone has to do is pick assault cannons in their army list and they automagically win.

can't remember anyone saying that.


Oh wait, they must be playing marines, so all they've got to do is turn up....

see above...


Cirenivel

machine_recovered_meat
08-02-2007, 16:55
And you can't shoot the lascannon at something further away than 48,1", i can't see the problem, don't deepstrike and just move closer
:rolleyes:

But you can shoot the lascannon at something between 24.1 & 48" which is the point.




Then don't deepstrike.
Except deepstriking was the point the poster I was responding to was making, or at least seemed to be making, based on their use of words.




So what?



relevance?
:rolleyes:
Now would be a good time for you to read, or reread the post I replied to.
The lascannon is primarily an anti tank weapon due to it's high strength.
It's high AP makes it useful for anti infantry, so what one might call "dedicated" another will call "actually useful in a number of different roles"



can't remember anyone saying that.

Read every post the poster I replied to [and made those points to] regarding assault cannons & space marines has made recently :)



see above...


Didn't get the reference? Never mind, carry on ;)

Cirenivel
08-02-2007, 17:06
The lascannon is primarily an anti tank weapon due to it's high strength.
It's high AP makes it useful for anti infantry, so what one might call "dedicated" another will call "actually useful in a number of different roles"


altough the asscannon is better at AT, or Against 2+ saves?

Cirenivel

EmperorEternalXIX
08-02-2007, 17:14
You're trying to tell me you would rather face a dozen or more squads of marines with lascannons and plasmaguns, then a handful of assault cannons which you can easily avoid/kill?

It isn't that I didn't know the rules, incidentally; I've just never been stupid enough to shoot a str 6 weapon at a monolith when I have enough lascannons and plasma to get the job done with higher strength shots, so I've never actually fired an assault cannon at a vehicle--because in my army, that's a waste of shots that could be ruining some other poor fools' infantry.

Either way I've already given about three thousand examples of why the weapon isn't half as deadly as you seem to think it is. If you field the right stuff then it can easily be dealt with; especially if you're tyranids, which theoretically should be all about moving around cover and using mobility to reach assault. If you assault the terms or the dread then bam, no more assault cannon until the assault's over. The vehicles can be dealt with by high volume of fire.

And I guess, somehow, your rending attacks are fairer, because you blindly run across the table and get shot to ribbons en route. How many rending attacks do you get in CC once you arrive anyway? I'm SURE it's more than 4 per phase. And can't you assault from 12 inches? AND deepstrike on top of enemies into assault?

How many assault cannons are you even taking about? A landspeeder with one is 80pts, they come in squads of three, so you can max them out at 9 speeders for 240. A much better deal than termies with 2 AC's for the same points. Now, 9 assault cannons on landspeeders is a bit BS. But you make it sound like it can kill entire regiments when even ONE is fielded.

In all seriousness, I think you just need to learn how to prioritize units. Send your guys through terrain, around the back, while inexpensive units rush and take the fire. All armies have to make sacrifice plays--adapt or fail, simple as that. Find a way to take them out (another aspect of the weapon which you haven't taked about at all. Does having one suddenly make units immortal, too?).

You STILL haven't explained to me how the countless ingame assault cannon equivalents--many of which are more numerous and fire more volume, as well as being harder to kill--are "fair" but the assault cannon isn't.

But then again it is seeming clear that things are moving beyond the realm of debate on this topic.

Carlos
08-02-2007, 17:14
terminator squads with two ACs and furious charge seems to be a fav/hated one

Whats the point of that? They still strike at I1 but with S9 as opposed to 8? Woooooooweeeeeeee.

Count de Monet
08-02-2007, 17:28
There are things in the Marine book that can be annoying. Boo armies against low-Ld armies, trait "disadvantages".

What gets me is the double standard when it comes to Marines.

When someone beats them, you hear "Haha, I'm totally tooled to kill Marines, only a noob would play them."

Then, when a Marine army wins, you hear "OMG! Marines are totally overpowered! They have to be to beat *my* cheesed-out list!"

:rolleyes:

Stingray_tm
08-02-2007, 17:30
It isn't that I didn't know the rules, incidentally; I've just never been stupid enough to shoot a str 6 weapon at a monolith when I have enough lascannons and plasma to get the job done with higher strength shots, so I've never actually fired an assault cannon at a vehicle--because in my army, that's a waste of shots that could be ruining some other poor fools' infantry.

A monolith is one of the few cases, where an Assault Cannon in fact doesn't work. That you don't use ACs against vehicles may have two meanins:
A. You have high priority non-vehicle targets (probably 3+ saves or better) while at the same time you have a Lascannon ready to deal with the vehicle, which would be a wise decision.
B. You think Lascannons are better against vehicles than ACs, in which case you are making an error. Better having 2 ACs than a Lascannon and an AC.



Either way I've already given about three thousand examples of why the weapon isn't half as deadly as you seem to think it is. If you field the right stuff then it can easily be dealt with; especially if you're tyranids, which theoretically should be all about moving around cover and using mobility to reach assault. If you assault the terms or the dread then bam, no more assault cannon until the assault's over. The vehicles can be dealt with by high volume of fire.
And I guess, somehow, your rending attacks are fairer, because you blindly run across the table and get shot to ribbons en route. How many rending attacks do you get in CC once you arrive anyway? I'm SURE it's more than 4 per phase. And can't you assault from 12 inches? AND deepstrike on top of enemies into assault?

I don't think you know how Tyranids work... Without (a lot of) rending attacks in close combat this army would be unplayable, since there is no way to kill Marines or tanks with Devourers, Fleshborers or S3 infantry without power weapons...
We have no plasma weapons, AP3 ordnance plates or anything besides Zoanthropes that can kill Marines or even Terminators from distance.
Our highest strength weapon can only glance non open-topped vehicles and even those will not kill Terminators, because of AP4. The other S10 weapon needs a psychic test, has a range of 18 and the whole Tyranid army can field as much of these than Marines can field Lascannons in a single Devastator squad...



How many assault cannons are you even taking about? A landspeeder with one is 80pts, they come in squads of three, so you can max them out at 9 speeders for 240. A much better deal than termies with 2 AC's for the same points. Now, 9 assault cannons on landspeeders is a bit BS. But you make it sound like it can kill entire regiments when even ONE is fielded.

Read my posts again. I said, i think that min/maxed lists (like the one you described) are cheesy and that the multi-role aspect of the AC makes other dedicated weapons essentially obsolete. Other than that i only stated examples of the effectiveness of the AC, since some people here argued that ACs are not that effective.
I didn't say anything else.



In all seriousness, I think you just need to learn how to prioritize units. Send your guys through terrain, around the back, while inexpensive units rush and take the fire. All armies have to make sacrifice plays--adapt or fail, simple as that. Find a way to take them out (another aspect of the weapon which you haven't taked about at all. Does having one suddenly make units immortal, too?).

You STILL haven't explained to me how the countless ingame assault cannon equivalents--many of which are more numerous and fire more volume, as well as being harder to kill--are "fair" but the assault cannon isn't.

But then again it is seeming clear that things are moving beyond the realm of debate on this topic.

I agree on your last point here.

EmperorEternalXIX
08-02-2007, 17:44
You know, talking about the limitations of the tyranids has helped me understand your frustration a bit. But again I have to stress that I have found much more results with plasma and lascannons with heavy bolter supplements then with assault cannons in my play. However that being said I haven't played against nids, only seen them in action from a spectator's point of view.

Maybe the problem isn't the assault cannon as much as the tyranids not having a useful counter? I mean, it sound slike any high-volume weapon would cause the same grief.

The reason why I don't fire the AC at vehicles is because it's not economic. Yeah, one of those shots might kill it, but only one of the four does that. I'd rather have a more definite way to do damage like the lascannon shots and krak missiles, then waste four shots on a vehicle that could've killed 4 models instead. Though I guess that is a preference more than anything else.

I agree that it has strength in all fields but it's really not that intelligent to field. I imagine against horde armies a slew of them is devastating but against ranged armies it could end up being a noteworthy detriment as well.

I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder, of course. But I'm sure we all agree on one thing--9 landspeeders and 2 terminator squads all with the same weapon is pretty lame.

Gutlord Grom
08-02-2007, 17:47
Of course we all know that a bucket of dice and several brrods of Spinegaunts, fleshborer, and Hormagaunt broods can't hurt Marines....

In fact, Termagaunts and Spinegaunts walk all over Marines in CC. With a Hive Mind connection they can't break. And the unit their attacking can't shoot. Dreadnaughts can't even kill more than two a turn in CC. And that Dread may have only killed at most eight from shooting with asssault cannon( which is highly unlikely). Termies can't take on broods by themselves. Hell, just shooting a few fleshborers can wipe out a squad.

Stingray_tm
08-02-2007, 17:49
Even though i don't agree with your opinion about the AC, i would much more prefer to play against someone using the AC like you than someone using the AC like i would. You use the AC as anti-infantry weapon, which it is supposed to be in my eyes.

Tyranids have counters to ACs, that's mass ;)

Stingray_tm
08-02-2007, 18:00
Of course we all know that a bucket of dice and several brrods of Spinegaunts, fleshborer, and Hormagaunt broods can't hurt Marines....

In fact, Termagaunts and Spinegaunts walk all over Marines in CC. With a Hive Mind connection they can't break. And the unit their attacking can't shoot. Dreadnaughts can't even kill more than two a turn in CC. And that Dread may have only killed at most eight from shooting with asssault cannon( which is highly unlikely). Termies can't take on broods by themselves. Hell, just shooting a few fleshborers can wipe out a squad.

Terminator kills per turn by a Gaunt in cc: 0.028
Let's assume the typical 16 Gaunt brood with charge: 0.89 Terminators first turn, 0.4 Terminators each following turn.

Assuming no Gaunt dies (!) and you assault some stupid marine player in turn 2, you will kill about 3 Terminators in the whole game. (More Gaunts won't change that much, because they either don't get into close combat or they can't get into b2b contact anymore).

That sounds like a fun game! In turn 2/3 everything is locked into combat until the game ends!

I didn't say Gaunts suck (they don't, i have 60+ of them), i said without rending Tyranids wouldn't be playable, since you can only lock really tough units, but you won't kill them in time. You need rending stuff to finish off MEQs or vehicles. (Unless you want to play a Zilla army, but i won't go there...)

Captain Micha
08-02-2007, 18:04
the ac is imbalanced. no other gun ( I am ferking serious) can do what it does. nor so cheaply. Nor in so many numbers able to be taken

name one gun as massable.

or even one as competent at its job for the points.

EmperorEternalXIX
08-02-2007, 19:41
Actually a page or two back I mentioned a whole bunch of stuff that fits that bill. It's not that massable anyway. The landspeeders would get only those four shots (Eldar war walkers have similarly dangerous weapons). You CAN have 9 landspeeders but if you encounter someone fielding 9 landspeeders you should just flip the guy off and walk away because that's a very lame army and the game will go very predictably. Terminators, you could only max out at 6 assault cannons, maybe eight if you use termie command squads as an HQ (I think--don't have my book with me right now at work). Though that costs 400ish points for a full squad of termies, 240 for minimum, with two cannons. That is a sizable chunk of the army vulnerable to power weapons, rending, plasma, and ordnance, so I wouldn't be caught dead doing that. Even if you max the Termies out, that's 3 squads of Elite space taken up giving a grand total of *dun dun dun* six assault cannons. All yours for the lovely price of 1200 points.

The landspeeders are more of a viable option, as they come in squads of 3 and cost only 80 points per. You can get 9 assault cannons on much more mobile platforms for 720 points (also thereby losing all of your fast attack slots).

Then there's dreadnoughts, which take elite spots and will net you 3 assault cannons at 105 points each. Maybe 6 slots with traits if you're feeling particularly "dreadish." So for 315 you get 3 AC's that are very assaultable and vulnerable to things like melta bombs, krak grenades, etc.

So I really don't think it's THAT massable, though admittedly, the landspeeder thing is cheesy. I can have many more las/plas than assault cannons, and those are usually 2-3 shots of guaranteed killing, give or take a Gets Hot here or there. I also use a lot of plasma cannons--str7/ap2 blast templates almost always take one or two guys down.

Personally I think anyone blowing that many points in any of those setups just to get that gun is a total fool.

But to make my original point, I could get more than double that in las/plas easily. So it really isn't massable at all.

Regardless other armies have similar stuff that is much more spammable (Necron Destroyers leap to mind). What I don't get is why people are so focused on the assault cannon.

Gutlord Grom
08-02-2007, 19:48
the ac is imbalanced. no other gun ( I am ferking serious) can do what it does. nor so cheaply. Nor in so many numbers able to be taken

name one gun as massable.

or even one as competent at its job for the points.

Plasma rifle, Railguns(twin linked), and missile pods. Very powerful weapons right there.

Captain Micha
08-02-2007, 20:50
which missile pods. and only one part of the foc can have them *L* and if you go broadside heavy you lose a ton of mobility.

and in the case of the plasma rifle it is only str 6. 24 inch and rapid fire... not the best gun to compare the ass. cannon too... maybe the ion head is what I'd say... except the ion still ain't as good

Angelus Mortis
08-02-2007, 22:48
the ac is imbalanced. no other gun ( I am ferking serious) can do what it does. nor so cheaply. Nor in so many numbers able to be taken

name one gun as massable.

or even one as competent at its job for the points.You know if you read the thread you would of noticed that it was already mentioned that Gauss Weapons are far superior to Assault Cannons. Yet nobody seems to think they are sooooo uber. A full squad of Necron Warriors can put out 40 shots on a Land Raider. Any 6s cause a glance. One single troop choice. And if its vs. Infantry, they cause auto wounds. Sure they get a armor save, but thats a hell of a lot of dice to be rolling for saves. Thats the basic trooper weapon of Necrons and you guys are all crying about half a dozen Assault Cannons in a SM list. Seriously, you guys a complaining about percieved issues that are just that. Percieved. In reality, they are very small indeed. I would much rather face an equivilant points worth of Assault Cannons as opposed to Gauss weapons.

The_Outsider
09-02-2007, 01:30
Marines get a pretty bad rep because of armies like BA. The DC are horribly overpowered and then you get the speeders o doom in there.

I bet you any money of guard were GW's most favoured army everyone would bitch about IG.

Also unlike some of the older codices marines have very few crap units, everything has a use and place.

However a lot of older codices have a few good choices and a few crap ones.

For IG its generally rough riders and ogryns, orks its zzap gunz and flash gitz, DE its (a bloody long list) et cetera.

Marines are hated because they got a decent codex.

Next in line: Eldar (though they don't suffer from this much because they are fairly hard to play).

Ianos
09-02-2007, 08:56
Marines dont get all that whining beacuause they are simply decent, they get it because they simply pay less for more in everything. Think about it, its not just the assault cannon which is better at killing tanks than a melta, has greater range, is cheaper and can kill tons of infantry too... its also other options like the heavy bolter which at 36" kills 2-3 warriors of any non marine race, downs light vehicles and costs 5!!! points (and all that mounted on high ld, high toughness, regroupable infantry that can take almost any warrior skill in the game!). What if eldar had a weapon that was 36" range str 5 ap3 heavy 4(to compensate bs3) for 5 points on all their platforms? I mean most eldar armies have just as much personell as marines, if they can kill 2 eldar for 5 points why shouldn' t eldar do the same?

The_Outsider
09-02-2007, 10:16
heavy bolter...downs light tanks

Good luck with that.

Also: *gasp* you only get one 5pt HB in a tactical squad. You should actually be more afraid of the bolters than 1 measely HB.


What if eldar had a weapon that was 36" range str 5 ap3 heavy 4(to compensate bs3) for 5 points on all their platforms? I mean most eldar armies have just as much personell as marines, if they can kill 2 eldar for 5 points why shouldn' t eldar do the same?

Previous codex Starcannons.

It owned marines.

It owned hordes.

It owned light tanks.

When combined with guide it just maimed everything.

So yeah, eldar suck for heavy weaponry then and now.

Angelus Mortis
09-02-2007, 10:38
Previous codex Starcannons.

It owned marines.

It owned hordes.

It owned light tanks.

When combined with guide it just maimed everything.

So yeah, eldar suck for heavy weaponry then and now.Funny you should mention that. A War Walker squadron of 3 cost 240 pts to chuck out 12 S6 AP2 shots at 36" range. And people complain about 5 Marines with 8 S6 AP4 shots at 24" that if they are lucky may auto wound with not save for 240 pts. Put them at 36" and see who wins, terrain aside just looking at stats. Thats 24 shots on the Termies before they get into range. All that will most likely wound and most likely not save. But the Assault Cannon is sooooo uber. Please. Tell it to someone who hasn't played over 3 games.

Lord Malek The Red Knight
09-02-2007, 11:21
Put them at 36" and see who wins, terrain aside just looking at stats. Thats 24 shots on the Termies before they get into range.
thats a bit artificial though, isnt it? in a real game, there will be Terrain, and they will probably be starting ~25" apart (or the Termies will DS).

plus the Termies can move and shoot to close the gap (their effective range is 30"), and all their weapons can hurt the WWs (just as all the WWs weapons can hurt the Termies) - so its not just 8 shots @ 24", its 14 shots at 30". ;)

Termies get an Inv Sv, too, and can benefit from Cover Saves - the best the WWs can get are Obscured Targets rolls, which wont even make a difference to the Storm Bolters. Termies can lose 3 models and still keep the Ass.Cannons (barring ToF, which still has to get past the Inv Sv), where as the WWs only have 3 models to begin with (and a high portion of any damage rolls will reduce their firepower).

just saying... :p

~ Tim

Angelus Mortis
09-02-2007, 11:49
thats a bit artificial though, isnt it? in a real game, there will be Terrain, and they will probably be starting ~25" apart (or the Termies will DS).

plus the Termies can move and shoot to close the gap (their effective range is 30"), and all their weapons can hurt the WWs (just as all the WWs weapons can hurt the Termies) - so its not just 8 shots @ 24", its 14 shots at 30". ;)

Termies get an Inv Sv, too, and can benefit from Cover Saves - the best the WWs can get are Obscured Targets rolls, which wont even make a difference to the Storm Bolters. Termies can lose 3 models and still keep the Ass.Cannons (barring ToF, which still has to get past the Inv Sv), where as the WWs only have 3 models to begin with (and a high portion of any damage rolls will reduce their firepower).

just saying... :p

~ Tim
Thats why I said "putting terrain aside and just using the stats". I quantified it. I'm just using the same argument that the "statiticians" are using. Taking all randomness, terrain, tactics, etc, out of the mix. Just going straight stats, which anyone wiht any game experience at all would tell you is completely unrealistic. But hey, thats the way they want to debate, so...

Also, I was assuming no other units, just a pair off as well as only one unit moving, since the Eldar player would want to maximise his free turns of shooting. Hell, if he had room to do it he could always walk backwards and the the Termies would never get into range. :p

EmperorEternalXIX
09-02-2007, 21:21
I'm going to add the War Walkers to the list of "much scarier things" I mentioned earlier.

AngryAngel
10-02-2007, 07:03
You know, I would give real reasons for things. Marine hate doesn't need real reasons. Why ? Because hate doesn't need reason to exist, hate always exists, it just hits the most visable target. Which on the net, with 40k is marines. I bet you damn near none who bash them so openly here. Who say what a no brainer, power gaming, noob army marines are. Would ever tell that to your face in a store. It's just so easy to bash behind a monitor.

So just forget um, not once in the places I play, have I ever heard anti marine talk, or even marine fear. The only real explanation of why people say what they do about marines, is damn simple. They dislike noobs, and dislike seeing marines all over the place. Thats it.

EmperorEternalXIX
10-02-2007, 09:38
Well no one bothers me at the store anyway. I dare say I'm fairly bigger than most of the other guys who are around there (then again, a lot of them are younger kids).

I think people seriously need to re-examine this with objective eyes. The weapon really isn't that big of a deal. As I've said countless times, there are stronger/more mobile/more massible equivalents all over the game that go unaccosted--simply because they don't belong to the marines.

I understand they dislike newbie players but at the same time that's a real double standard. I didn't choose the space marines because they were easy or because I was new; I picked the Space Marines because their backstory is freaking awesome, and I think the Emperor is the most awesome thing ever conceived. Hence, for me, it's a natural choice.

Either way if I wanted to pick an army because it's "easy" there are lots of other sells:
Imperial Guard: You'll have massive numbers!!
Tyranids: Monstrous creatures!! Without Number!!
Necrons: Come back to life over and over again!!
Chaos: Be possessed by demons and have all kinds of demonic powers!!

You know what I mean? There are just way more sells out there that, if I were a newbie looking for a power play army, I'd certainly not have the rather vanilla marines as my first pick.

Angelus Mortis
10-02-2007, 10:49
You know, I would give real reasons for things. Marine hate doesn't need real reasons. Why ? Because hate doesn't need reason to exist, hate always exists, it just hits the most visable target. Which on the net, with 40k is marines. I bet you damn near none who bash them so openly here. Who say what a no brainer, power gaming, noob army marines are. Would ever tell that to your face in a store. It's just so easy to bash behind a monitor.

So just forget um, not once in the places I play, have I ever heard anti marine talk, or even marine fear. The only real explanation of why people say what they do about marines, is damn simple. They dislike noobs, and dislike seeing marines all over the place. Thats it.You know, that does sound like reality to me. I'm going to have to agree.


You know what I mean? There are just way more sells out there that, if I were a newbie looking for a power play army, I'd certainly not have the rather vanilla marines as my first pick.Well said also.

Stingray_tm
10-02-2007, 12:11
Tyranids: Monstrous creatures!! Without Number!!


I won't comment on the other ones (i'll leave that to players of the respective army), and i agree with you on MCs. But Without Numbers?!?
You already told us, that you never played against Nids and this is a clear sign...

Captain Micha
10-02-2007, 12:45
*L* I would tell you to your face if it was a massed ass cannon army and I had no reason to believe otherwise about your skill level as to how easy of an army list to use you have.

I don't hate marines. I don't even hate las plas. I hate -that- gun.

Holy Crap! Manticores!
10-02-2007, 12:56
I dunno, I see Marines get their anii handed to them all the time, regardless of the number of autocannons. I also see Marines who do the handing out.

With some solid tactical playing and a somewhat balanced list, SM's are a challenge, and a joy, to play.

I think it's more of a problem with SM players than the Codex.

Captain Micha
10-02-2007, 12:59
and that too. let alone. "no this gun isn't imbalanced." *lets them read other codexes.. Yes plural... and their guns* "its fine... the (insert gun here) is fine next to it.. riiiiight. what if you had this gun availible in YOUR codex where you could have ass cannons... "Oh I would still take the ass cannon its much better"

true story