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Asmith
07-02-2007, 18:41
I got my rulebook last week (but none of the planes I'd ordered), so I haven't got to play yet. On my initial look though the rules it seems no matter what the enemy plane is doing (ie. hovering, landing, ground attack etc.) it is just as difficult to hit and damage it, as a plane actively engaged in dogfighting. Is this the case?

I had plans to incorporate AI into games of 40k, but with this little bit of strangeness in the rules it seems like planes would become much too powerful, at least the way I was planning on doing it.

mattjgilbert
07-02-2007, 18:49
I got my rulebook last week (but none of the planes I'd ordered), so I haven't got to play yet. On my initial look though the rules it seems no matter what the enemy plane is doing (ie. hovering, landing, ground attack etc.) it is just as difficult to hit and damage it, as a plane actively engaged in dogfighting. Is this the case?

I had plans to incorporate AI into games of 40k, but with this little bit of strangeness in the rules it seems like planes would become much too powerful, at least the way I was planning on doing it.Correct. Hitting a fast moving target while piloting a fast moving platform is a hard thing to do and so the to-hit rule is kept simple. Pilot experience still doesn't affect this, more the ability of the pilot to handle the plane itself and pull off fancy manoeuvres. Sustained Burst will increase the number of dice you roll but the chances of each one hitting are the same.

I'm not sure how you intended to combine the games. My thoughts around this were to have the result of one game influence the circumstances of the other, rather than attempt some mash-up of the rules.

Oberon
07-02-2007, 18:55
There are flyer rules in 40k, also by FW. They can be found in IA 1, 2 and 3, or at least one of them. I'd check before I bought one of them. Not sure how AI will fit in with 40k, not well I quess. Keep dogfighting in AI and 40k in 40k. :)

ml2sjw
07-02-2007, 18:55
on pure game mechanics they are no easier to hit when landed hovering etc they are however far easier to get a bead on and shoot at because you know what they are going to do.

Asmith
07-02-2007, 19:41
My basic idea was to have two tables, one with AI on it one with 40k as normal. On the AI table you would have a small section of the board (maybe 4x6" or so marked with tape or something) designated to represent the 40k table. 2-3 AI turns per one 40k turn. For the planes to attack the 40k table they would have to perform a ground attack as normal on the designated area, which would then be resolved using the 40k flyer rules. Everything simple so far and no rule mashups.

Realistically it should be a great risk to break off from a dog fight to perform a ground attack, however in the AI rules it appears there is absolutely no penalty for doing so. IE for this concept to work you would need to suffer some kind of disadvantage in AI to make up for the advantage you gain on the 40k field something I had assumed would be built into the rules for AI but sadly are not.

As a for example, in the AI game your plane is being tailed by and enemy fighter and you are in position to strafe the battlefield. The way I was hoping it would work is you could take a big risk with your plane and strafe the field knowing that you were (more) likely to be shot down, or ignore the field and continue your fight with the enemy plane until you were clear. conventionally you would be in great danger if you continued on with the ground attack without breaking off to deal with the enemy fighter, however in AI it seems there is absolutely no reason not to continue on with the strafing run thus ruining the potential nice integration of the 2 systems.

mattjgilbert
07-02-2007, 21:40
Well as there are no official rules for tying the two games together, why not come up with some, play-test them and post your results?

mageboltrat
07-02-2007, 23:22
I think you will have a greater risk than you think carrying out a ground attack using the AI rules. It's much easier for the enemy to get a bead on you if he know your going for a ground attack.

If you are going for making this work I would suggest bringing 40K and AI turns in line. Possibly suggesting starting the 40K game on AI turn 3. It would be too hard to work out what's going on if you have 3 turns worth of attack runs going on at the same time. Second you need to work out how hits done by 40K ground attacks affect hit points, you might need to do a small rewrite on the 40K flyer damage tables.

My suggestion on making it pull together is to allow any plane inside the zone at the end of it's move to make a "40K Strafe Run" instead of shooting. At which point you note down a Strafe run has been made by the plane on a sheet of paper. Planes can be shot down after that in the AI turn but still make their attack on the 40K table, It is therefore possible for a plane to be shot down on the 40K board and the AI board at the same time, this still feels OK. The plane must have locked on and started firing at the same time as the ground target shot it out of the sky.

Player [A] 40K Turn 1) [B] moves on planes that attack AI turn 3, [A] Shoots at them.
Player [B] 40K Turn 1) [A] moves on planes that attack AI turn 3, [B] Shoots at them, [B] also fires any planes he moved on in [A]s turn and then they disengage

Play AI turn 4, Noting down any new attack runs

Player [A] 40K Turn 2) [B] moves on planes that attack AI turn 4, [A] Shoots at them. [A] also fires any planes he moved on in [B]s turn 1 and then they disengage.
Player [B] 40K Turn 2) [A] moves on planes that attack AI turn 4, [B] Shoots at them, [B] also fires any planes he moved on in [A]s turn 2 and then they disengage

ETC.

It should work OK

Asmith
08-02-2007, 16:06
good suggestions mageboltrat: I guess I'll have to play few games of AI to get a feel for what the risk is.

IMO the risk has to be fairly high to avoid planes going for the ground attack frequently, so you have to gain some significant superiority in the air before the gorund attack becomes a safe option.

Do you really think it would be that hard to resolve 3 turns worth of AI attack runs at once on the 40k board? The way I was picturing it AI attack runs would be fairly infrequent unless one side gets complete air dominance.

BTW I don't really have a feel for maneuvering in AI yet. Is it possible for one airplane (not hovering) to attack a ground target on every AI turn? Or is it that you have to strafe and then manuever for a turn or two to get back into strafing run position?

mattjgilbert
08-02-2007, 17:55
BTW I don't really have a feel for maneuvering in AI yet. Is it possible for one airplane (not hovering) to attack a ground target on every AI turn? Or is it that you have to strafe and then manuever for a turn or two to get back into strafing run position?Of the top of my head you would have to forego at least a turn to get back into position. Cards with steep or sharp turns usually see you changing altitude.

Of course an ace pilot passing his pilot skill roll might pull it off using two cards in on go...

mageboltrat
08-02-2007, 19:17
anything with Very High Manoeuvre rating can do a turn on the same altitude with #10 card. So a Eldar phoenix could do 3 attack runs in one 40k turn if you run it with 3 AI turns to a 40K turn

orangesm
10-02-2007, 00:59
I understand what is trying to be done. But I do not think it is the best way to incorporate the 2 games. Even incorporating AeroImp with Epic is difficult and they are on the same scale. My best suggestion is to have results of the AI battle have effects on the 40k battle. If you destroy some number of tanks or units then there is a reduction of forces available to that side in the 40k battle. In AI/Epic you could easily have 10s of tanks as targets. Unless you have 10 Leman Russes then it could be difficult.