PDA

View Full Version : Is the fluff ever going to advance?



Plebian
08-02-2007, 04:55
Hey Guys,
It seems we've been stalled at the end of the millenium for a while now. Is the story line going to continue or are we going to remain frozen like this for eternity? I sure hope not, but GW rarely listens to my humble opinion. Tell me what you think
-Plebian

Arkade
08-02-2007, 04:57
Are you serious?

Light of the Emperor
08-02-2007, 05:02
Well they've reached a good point at which to stop.
The storylines created by the Armageddon and Eye of Terror campaign are still on going which allows players to continue their battles.
I mean, if GW were to continue the storyline, many of the loose ends will find an ending which is not what GW wants. They've said many a time that they want the gamers themselves to continue where the GW background left off.
And while it may be the end of the millenium, there are a few hundred years they can play with.

Lancaster
08-02-2007, 05:07
It is expanding, but like in the real world, it takes time

America is still fighting a war in Iraq

Now, let's say we were put in the 40K universe, and GW wrote a fantasy about the real world, you could easily say: "aw come on, We've been waiting for the story to advance this Iraq thing is BORING, I'm tired of all this mystery about Iran, and what about global warming, will they be able to stop it? We've been waiting for China to become a super power for like EVER, and it's been six years since they've told us anything new, I think the story is stagnated."

I think that GW is advancing the story at the same pace time passes here, I mean, Tau did another sphere of expansion, Medusa fell how much more do you want? It was like 4 years of time, if it was a million years time scale, I'd expect more, but to tell you the truth, it seems like there is a LOT of the story going on in a very short time, after all it takes many months to travel across the galaxy, and months to take a city, over time, all these months add up.

Khaine's Messenger
08-02-2007, 05:19
In order for the background to advance in any appreciable fashion, GW would probably have to pay about as much attention to the foaming bubbles of 40k background as other companies do to their own setting time-lines. Which is to say that I really don't think either 40k or Fantasy are built with growth or change in mind; they're built to sell a wargame, not a story. And there's no shame in that.

Vaktathi
08-02-2007, 05:32
And while it may be the end of the millenium, there are a few hundred years they can play with.

Didnt the 3rd War for Armageddon start like 998.M41? (given that Codex Armageddon came out in 2000, it seems like an awful long time to sit at the same point)

Corporal Chaos
08-02-2007, 05:35
Every game you play advances the story line. Just remember it is your little piece of space/time.[dice0]

Arch-Traitor Horus
08-02-2007, 05:59
Didnt the 3rd War for Armageddon start like 998.M41? (given that Codex Armageddon came out in 2000, it seems like an awful long time to sit at the same point)

does anyone else think we might see a 4th war next year as orks will be out a little bit before the summer campain?

insaniak
08-02-2007, 06:34
Personally, I see the whole 'sitting at the end of the millenium' thing as being a large part of the 40K setting, so I doubt they'll move past it.

Games are supposed to be set in the 'history' of 40K as well as the 'current time' (hence certain Special Characters being usable despite being 'dead' in their backstories.)

Within that framework, they've got 10000 years worth of fluff to flesh out before they need to actually advance the 'current' timeline.

Barltok
08-02-2007, 07:37
40k is pretty much on the edge of ragnarok at this point, the only thing they can really do now is end it, or take away a lot of the mystery that surrounds the finer points of the fluff.

Now the real question is, will GW bring it all to a close when they finally crash and burn? Or will they simply say "And they continued blowing each others brains out, forever and ever." They could probably make a pretty tidy profit selling the books that end the settings storyline as it were, but then again, if GW goes down it probably means no one cares anymore anyway. What do you guys think?

idinos
08-02-2007, 07:47
You are presupposing that GW will crash and burn. I don't see why it should, but anyway, I would like to see a couple of advancements. The only problem is the scale of the game and the mindset of the factions. With whole systems exterminated by the Tyranids, Chaos wanting to destroy the Empire, etc., you have a universal fluff which is difficult to move forward. In Warmachine, they do a good job of advancing the fluff because the scope of the game is smaller. It is fought in a continent; sure, one side might lose a little in one war or be a stalemate, but a war there does not equate complete obliteration of the planet.

Tarquinn
08-02-2007, 08:09
Perhaps with the next edition in a few years....

Lt. Falcon
08-02-2007, 20:21
Advancing the fluff of 40k would probably be the end of 40k as we know it.
And that might not be a good thing.

The RPG company White Wolf did a similiar thing with their "World of Darkness"/ Vampire: The Masquerade a few years back. The storyline was on the brink of armageddon and all was exciting. When they finally brought it out, all the fun disappeared. No one I know plays V:tM anymore because of it... I wouldn't want that to happen with 40k.

It's a bit like fear of the dark: It's exciting 'cause you don't know what's out there. :)

GraveDancer
08-02-2007, 20:38
they've hardly advanced the fluff in 20 years so i don't see it happening any time soon. they've just built on the history.

it'd be rad if they did though, brought back all the primarchs oooooo

Rob0362
08-02-2007, 20:45
they have advanced the fluff ever so slightly why did the tau get new stealth suits cause they advanced went form -15 to a -20 name

Captain Micha
08-02-2007, 20:53
and a support slot!

also we have a whole galaxy to play in and 10,000 years of other story for them to finish. ALOT can happen in that 'last year'

GraveDancer
08-02-2007, 20:54
you could say the same thing about marine tech though - we've gone through a few MkI's and II's of rhinos and marine armour and so on. again i don't see this as advancing fluff, just filling out history.

or more that the modellers want to produce a better looking range...

yeah i still refuse to acknowledge the existence of the tau seeing they just rammed the race in to the history with little explanation apart from them being surrounded by warp storms for a coupla thousand years.

Captain Micha
08-02-2007, 20:58
*L* I refuse to acknowledge the existance of marines because the nature of their existance contradicts the way they wage war.

the reasoning is about as sound lol.
they didn't need any explanation for the Tau. Seriously. They stuck them out in a relativly unexplored untamed region.... How is this any different than encountering eldar for the first time. its not. its just the 'new' syndrome.

Karhedron
08-02-2007, 21:02
On the whole, 40K is a setting rather than a storyline. Big events like EOT are an exception but even that was not popular as it didn't really change anything at the end of the day.

The fluff is only advanced if it serves new model releases. GW certainly won't do anything big and apocalyptic to their storylines as it would potentially reduce their sales. Look what happened to White Wolf when they actually produced the Gehenna storylines. They basically burned up 10+ years of creating the setting and sales plumeted after that. They then had to start from scratch creating a post-gehenna setting.

GraveDancer
08-02-2007, 21:41
*L* I refuse to acknowledge the existance of marines because the nature of their existance contradicts the way they wage war.

the reasoning is about as sound lol.
they didn't need any explanation for the Tau. Seriously. They stuck them out in a relativly unexplored untamed region.... How is this any different than encountering eldar for the first time. its not. its just the 'new' syndrome.

its not so much a syndrome as in they still are an unweildy fit within the current history - i thought the same thing about necrons when they first released the models and their rules in a white dwarf back in 98/99. since then they've developed the background story and look of the models so now i think they're a brilliant and genuinely scary army.

so obviously if the same happened with tau i'd change my mind. but right now their history and the explanation for their existence looks like it was shaped by an invalid with dry play-dough. the models look like their roughly based on anime mecha, by someone who doesn't watch anime.

and even if they did, the whole 'sleek, japanese styled' look they seem to have doesn't fit within the more dark and gothic (and obviously european) setting of 40K

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
08-02-2007, 23:06
Does anyone else think that the Tau in DoW: DC sound exactly like the Trade Federation guys from Star Wars Episode One?

Minister
08-02-2007, 23:23
My preference would be for more source material to feature timeframes other than the end of the 41st. Setting a campaign book in the Bucharian Heresy, for example, would allow the fluff to be bulked out no end without advancing the timeline.

Arkzein
08-02-2007, 23:24
Can't see it here, warhammer 41k? Even if it becomes less profitable in core markets they seem to be trying to expand into new markets where it still has growth potential. And rounding up the fluff or having the damned apocalypse and moving onto a new era would kill sales.

What I *could* see is them producing another "core" game set in a different universe which wouldn't make the same mistakes as before. They have they resources and it would cut out the second hand market that is no doubt taking a chunk of their profits now with so many second hand models around and things like ebay making it easier to trade them.

Alternatively, same races, different or advanced (Or even old, Dark age of Technology?) universe. Less likely and would hit sales of the "old" universe hard so can't see it either.

Then again they could just go on trying to rehash the old money spinners again and again and keep adding depth to the fluff. After all, don't knock something that works and why do you need to advance the universe when you are aiming to simply grab as many young new players as possible who know nothing about it? Still new to them.

*edit* That does sound rather cynical reading it back. I actually rather like GW as a company as just trying to imagine where they will likely go.

Lyinar
08-02-2007, 23:37
Not really... There's no constant fearful/subservient undertone in the Tau voices. ;)

IIRC (as It's been a while since I read the series), the Gaunt's Ghosts series and thus the entire Sabbat Crusade takes place around 750.M41... So, over two centuries before the 13th Black Crusade.

I'd have to say that I envision something like this happening, should it ever advance to the 'end times'.



Brother Demandred of the Dark Angels, one of a handful honoured with the post of door-warden for the chamber in which Lion'El Jonson lay for ten millennia, was shocked to see a tall, cloaked figure striding toward him. The man who approached wore simple robes and a cowl that shaded his face, though it could not disguise the flowing beard that poured out, and a cloak of slate grey. Slung over the man's back was an ancient axe of magnificent workmanship, but the most striking feature was quite simply his height. He towered over Demandred's 8' frame in a manner that the marine knew that his own beloved Primarch would.

"I am sorry, sir," Demandred spoke, wondering why he was being polite to this strange figure whom he should be firing on even now, "But none may pass, save the most honoured of our chapter."

The man gave a fanged grin and replied easily, "I'm here to speak to my brother, youngling. Stand aside and no harm will befall anyone this day."

Brother? It couldn't be... There was only one primarch who would have those fangs, or that beard, and he had vanished millennia ago. Numb with shock, Demandred let the man... No, not the man, the Wolf, pass, and followed him into the chamber.

The Dark Angel stood, mystified, as Leman Russ swept back the cowl of his robe and pulled a strange device with a white cylinder and a horn on top of it from the pocket of a pouch. Russ then brought the device close to the Lion's ear and pressed down on the top, causing the horn to emit a terrible sound that made Demandred cover his ears, and the Lion, who had been in a deep, dreamless healing sleep since Luthor had nearly killed him, awoke.

After Russ moved his finger and the ear-splitting klaxon died off, he yelled at the top of his large lungs, "Time to wake up, little brother! Dad needs us."

;)

Scorpion
09-02-2007, 01:10
I wouldn't advocate an "advancement" of the storyline, but more like a "streamlining" of it. There are many bits 'n' pieces of fluff that don't quite fit together. Per example, GW has admitted that both Necrons and Dark Eldar needs a serious re-imagining and redesign of both fluff and gameplay, to snuff out some of the unintended consequenses of shoehorning the C'tan into the fluff (the infamous "the C'tan did it!" syndrome).
Perhaps one clue of this can be found in the new Eldar Codex: whereas in the Necron Codex, the War In Heaven is designated as a cataclysmic conflict between the Eldar gods and the Necrons, in the new Eldar Codex, the War In Heaven resumed to be a conflict between Kaela Mensha Khaine and the other Eldar deities. Any mention of the Necrons was ommited.

GraveDancer
09-02-2007, 01:14
Does anyone else think that the Tau in DoW: DC sound exactly like the Trade Federation guys from Star Wars Episode One?

well considering george lucas makes all the races other than the human rebels sound ethnic, its no suprise. TF were meant to be 'japanese' too. jar jar binks had jamaican stereotypes (highly distorted of course) all the officers in the empire were british, even though they are in outer space where there's clearly no britain...

umm

Lancaster
09-02-2007, 04:32
I wouldn't advocate an "advancement" of the storyline, but more like a "streamlining" of it. There are many bits 'n' pieces of fluff that don't quite fit together. Per example, GW has admitted that both Necrons and Dark Eldar needs a serious re-imagining and redesign of both fluff and gameplay, to snuff out some of the unintended consequenses of shoehorning the C'tan into the fluff (the infamous "the C'tan did it!" syndrome).
Perhaps one clue of this can be found in the new Eldar Codex: whereas in the Necron Codex, the War In Heaven is designated as a cataclysmic conflict between the Eldar gods and the Necrons, in the new Eldar Codex, the War In Heaven resumed to be a conflict between Kaela Mensha Khaine and the other Eldar deities. Any mention of the Necrons was ommited.

Well, If it helps, GW is allowed to contradict themselves with Eldar fluff, as it is stories that have been bastardized and contorted by all except the Harlequinns, and the "Necron" stories (I say "Necron" because even if you read them, you can intereperet them as having nothing to do with Necron, and probably more than likely would had you not been told they were about Necron) are supposed to be few and far between.

Also, the Nightbringer is known as Kaelis'Ra to the Eldar, which sounds kind of like Kaela Mensha Khaine. I don't know much about Eldar Language, so I can't speculate the connection (maybe it means "God" oops, I just speculated) but there may be a connection.

Also, as for the Tau seeming Japanese, and nothing like 40K, they are one of the only races that developed without the help of the Old Ones, and as such I would expect them to look foreign.

Doctor Thunder
09-02-2007, 04:51
Hey Guys,
It seems we've been stalled at the end of the millenium for a while now. Is the story line going to continue or are we going to remain frozen like this for eternity? I sure hope not, but GW rarely listens to my humble opinion. Tell me what you think
-Plebian

I think GW answered this question already, back in US WD 302. Here's a snippet:


The background exists as a context for the games that people play. Despite the occasional event, the background was never intended to be an ongoing narrative that would be constantly updated. The back story presents questions, enigmas, problems, and conflicts. Gamers explore and solve these issues by playing games and developing armies. In short, the background provides the beginning, but the players provide the end.
So, what is Cypher up to? Well, he's up to whatever you need him to be for your games and campaigns. What does the Cult Mechanicus have to do with the Dragon? Whatever you want that relationship to be. Are the Blood Angels even going to go to chaos? It's up to you.

Iracundus
09-02-2007, 07:53
Except however that in the past there has been advancement in the storyline. In 2nd edition, Tycho went from being just a generic golden masked BA captain to the scarred bitter Ork hater as a result of one GW studio battle report. It saw the Tyranids enter the scene in full force with Behemoth and Kraken, with the 2nd edition progressing through the Ichar campaign to just after Kraken started splintering into sub fleets. 3rd edition saw the introduction of Hive Fleet Leviathan and the EoT campaign meant a 13th Black Crusade whereas before there hadn't been that many.

It's a bit of a copout really as "advancement" is still possible without necessarily bringing the game universe to a true end. Like before, little changes can occur and the years advance without game ending changes. This means of course that no one threat or race will suddenly achieve its ultimate objectives, such as Chaos actually conquering Terra or the Necrons finishing their Great Work, but there is still room to maneuver.

omricon
09-02-2007, 10:34
They advance and develop characters, which is very different to advancing stories. The Captain gets promoted to special character, Ahriman finds the Black Library (but what does he take?), Yarrick does his thing etc. Nothing changes in the universe but things change for those characters.

As for the C'tan post, I agree with Scorpion, the C'tan arent meant to be the breakers of everything although GW do have an annoying havbit of releasing codices (except eldar, Tau and SM) which say 'and our race background means unless we can be stopped you will all die!' I know some particularly passionate nid players who seem to think that their version of this story is the only right one. Anyway I digress. Back to C'tan, I think the new stuff they introduced about necron Lords being clever and specifically being able to disguise themselves and blend in with eg humans and being able to coordinate stuff by themselves leaves me with the suspicion that the Lords will be handed more control and power in any new dex with C'tan being a menacing back seat available to summon by the Lords on command.

Sephiroth
09-02-2007, 11:08
I think the Tau are fine. Where the Imperium is in a gothic, roughly Dark Ages/Medieval feel, the Tau are in an 'English Colonial Era', expanding, annexing new territory and generally feeling that nothing can bring them down.

I don't think everything needs to have a 'Ages/Medieval' feel. The Eldar certainly don't, and they have a fair degree of eastern influence too.

Carlos
09-02-2007, 11:16
I dont think we will see the Future fluff change but GW being who they are, they are free to go back and change the past to affect the future. Cases in point: Annihilation of Squats, Intro of Necrons and Tau.

It is likely the fluff will be expanded once the new Ork/Dark Eldar/Hrud Codexes reach the shelves with differing emnities etc appearing and I also expect a new bevy of races when the 3rd Tau book comes around again.

Paladin-01
10-02-2007, 23:30
I'd have to say that I envision something like this happening, should it ever advance to the 'end times'.

[story]

;)

That was half interesting until you had Leman Russ use an airhorn on Lionel.

Lyinar
10-02-2007, 23:32
What, would you rather I had Leman Russ stick his brother's hand in a glass of warm water? ;)

He isn't exactly known for subtlety or gentleness, after all.

lanrak
11-02-2007, 00:11
Oh yes lets just have lots of fluff to choke the creativity of gamers.
No original thought from the gaming community ,just read all the news from the GW fluff mill.:D

Ye gods ,there is enough 'Fluff Gestapo' wandering the gaming tables now.:cries:

If you cannot think of you own history and background ,and HAVE to rely on GW to spoon feed you ,then you miss the entire point of Fantacy and Sci-fi gaming.

If you want to confine yourself to playing games with constrictive history.
Play HISTORICAL WARGAMES!!!!!!!

Nuff said.
Lanrak.

Warboss Grimmtoof
11-02-2007, 00:31
see above post...

Plebian
11-02-2007, 01:48
Advancing the fluff is NOT stifling creative thinking. How does finding out what happens with Abbadon, the Tau and the rest stife creativity? I'm just curious what happens next. 40k is a story you play, and while you can make up your own micro-story, its up to GW to tell the story of the galaxy as a whole.

-Plebian

Doctor Thunder
12-02-2007, 06:34
its up to GW to tell the story of the galaxy as a whole.

Which is exactly what they have said they do not intend to do.

eleveninches
12-02-2007, 08:28
I dont really think that they need to advance the timeline at all. THe 40k galaxy is a big place, so they dont ned to advance the timeline much, they can just deepen the fluff, by having events going on in different parts of the galaxy at more or less the same time. This also means that they are more likely to release new models, units and special charachters specific to that region of space.

JustTony
12-02-2007, 10:46
Quote: Brother Demandred of the Dark Angels, one of a handful honoured with the post of door-warden for the chamber in which Lion'El Jonson lay for ten millennia, was shocked to see a tall, cloaked figure striding toward him. The man who approached wore simple robes and a cowl that shaded his face, though it could not disguise the flowing beard that poured out, and a cloak of slate grey. Slung over the man's back was an ancient axe of magnificent workmanship, but the most striking feature was quite simply his height. He towered over Demandred's 8' frame in a manner that the marine knew that his own beloved Primarch would.

"I am sorry, sir," Demandred spoke, wondering why he was being polite to this strange figure whom he should be firing on even now, "But none may pass, save the most honoured of our chapter."

The man gave a fanged grin and replied easily, "I'm here to speak to my brother, youngling. Stand aside and no harm will befall anyone this day."

Brother? It couldn't be... There was only one primarch who would have those fangs, or that beard, and he had vanished millennia ago. Numb with shock, Demandred let the man... No, not the man, the Wolf, pass, and followed him into the chamber.

The Dark Angel stood, mystified, as Leman Russ swept back the cowl of his robe and pulled a strange device with a white cylinder and a horn on top of it from the pocket of a pouch. Russ then brought the device close to the Lion's ear and pressed down on the top, causing the horn to emit a terrible sound that made Demandred cover his ears, and the Lion, who had been in a deep, dreamless healing sleep since Luthor had nearly killed him, awoke.

After Russ moved his finger and the ear-splitting klaxon died off, he yelled at the top of his large lungs, "Time to wake up, little brother! Dad needs us."


Choke, snort, cough, cough, . . . , splatter. Damn, coffee on the screen AGAIN. I guess I'm going to have to quit drinking coffee while I browse Warseer. I thought this was hysterical, but then I do have a very odd sense of humor.

On-topic, now. I doubt GW will ever actually advance the story. Fill in back story, yeah sure, but the current story will be left hanging, and that's okay. Several posters have pointed out White Wolf's Vampire game and that's an excellent example. I wish they'd go back to the Dark Age of Technology and give us a game where the technology works and it's users know how it works. No, they would be the crusty, rusty old rotten Empire we all love and hate, but it would be nice for humans to be the undoubted good guys for once, at least to themslves.

Peace; through superior firepower.