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ashc
10-02-2007, 20:45
Looking at this first page of the WarSeer 40k general discussion boards you could certainly think so, but do people feel this way? I was hoping we could generate some discussion on the matter. Does it feel like 4th edition is becoming more marine-centric or are things being balanced as the releases go on? Does the background feel dominated by the presence of the Emperor's Finest, or do you consider this alot more even between races? What are the feelings your local gaming stores/groups have towards marines, and how does this reflect your community in general?

Im looking forward to hearing some replies,

Ash

Misanthrope
10-02-2007, 20:59
My own personal feeling is that Marines are being bathed in over-indulgance. First off, it's more likely new players will start the game with Marines. They're kinda like a quick fix. Marines are one of the best Troops in the game and from personal experience it's very tough to give up that 3+ save in favour of a 5+.

Blackrock
10-02-2007, 21:01
Space Marines are the most powerful, most effective shock troops in the galaxy. You can say that Guard, Orks or even Necrons are more numerous but you have to remember the majority of skirmishes they're involved with (the guard at least) are normally civil rebellion and peacekeeping - not the snapshot of blitzkrieg that a regular 40k game represents.

Therefore, I'm happy with the amount of space marines - there may be lots of players but at the end of the day they'll be the ones there fighting off the Tyranids, the most powerful foes of Chaos and the unstoppable assault of a Waagh at the crucial moments.

I think that it's just snowballed, so now they're the golden child in GW's eyes - I'm happy with them being superior game-wise, but release-wise it got old about the time of the release of 3rd Ed.

Maybe GW's flagging financial status will push them to change their MORE-MONIES approach, but it's unlikely.

Here's hoping for Open40K!

Penitent
10-02-2007, 21:03
I think marines do get alot of attention, but I'm fine with this. They're an easy sell for a company like GW.

I don't think they are out-of-balance, in terms of rules, though. The rumoured redux marine codex adds credence to that, I think.

Misanthrope
10-02-2007, 21:09
Marines are an easy sell but at the same time they're pushing other players away. They are by far the focal point of the 40K universe. Atleast in WHFB there really isn't any "one race that everything else evolves around". The Empire comes close but it isn't nearly the most popular army.

So what came first, the chicken or the egg? Is GW's infatuation with Marines the result of their popularity? Or is their popularity a result of GW's infatuation with them? Personally, I dare them to release their next starter set with no Marines in sight.

Kahadras
10-02-2007, 21:18
I tend to think Marines are overhyped. I've seen a lot of people complain about the dominance of the MEq army but in both clubs I've gone to I find the opposite to be true. In the club I'm presently with only two people regularly play Marines (and I'm one of them with my SW). At the present moment more people at my club play Guard than Marines! :eek:

Granted GW use them as their 'flagship' line but once you get past the 'newbie' players Marines quickly fade away and get replaced by Chaos or Eldar or Tau. Yes Marines do get a lot of attention in the way of plastic kits etc but they are really designed as the army to get people into 40K. Easy to assemble and paint. Fairly easy to play with etc etc

Kahadras

Reaver83
10-02-2007, 21:21
it's odd at the vets night where i play it seems everyone is either guard or chaos, marines are for newbies as it were

pwrgmrguard
10-02-2007, 21:26
I am proud to Say my BA are my second Army, after my Guard. While i like 3+ saves, i like tanks and three pieplates a turn more.

Huw_Dawson
10-02-2007, 21:35
Space Marines are like chainsaws in Gears of War: Their highly effective at shooting and close combat, but the other weapons that take practice and skill to use are far, far better in their alloted functions. And if you've played GoW for more than ten minutes, you get to realise that repeated chainsaw kills are about 100% the domain of the poor players and noobs.

Although not 100% of SM players are poor or noobish. I hasten to point this out, although I think even the experianced marine player knows that his army is overused...

And I really don't know much about GoW, so I may be incorrect in this analogy...

- Huw

Zingraff
10-02-2007, 21:48
Not as much as before. As an old IG player, I mostly pay attention to the coverage Guard receives, and as far as I can tell, Guard has never been more popular. So, I'm pretty happy.

I would like to see GW paying more attention to their other lines, such as Epic or any of the other Fanatic games. That would be great. Without the other games, WD has become a really dull magazine. Just because we don't buy these other lines, doesn't mean we wouldn't like to read about them.

GraveDancer
10-02-2007, 22:35
marines have always been the darling child of GW, from day one

Frep
10-02-2007, 22:42
True Space Marines are often played by Noobs such as myself but people need to remember it's not just because of their capabilities on the table top, they are also popular due to their customization. (this is the reason ,in my humble opinion why GW uses them as a flagship) Space Marines are also used as the frontmen because they're the acceptable face of 40k I mean everyone else is either a bunch of aliens or Demons with the exception of the guard but unless you know the game the "cool" factor doesn't come accross

Maus
10-02-2007, 23:37
marines have always been the darling child of GW, from day one
Except from the days before they made them ;)

Aurellis
11-02-2007, 00:20
I think the other armies are becoming more predominant...
Eldar and Tau definitely are, Chaos and IG yes, and Dark Eldar too (atleast 6 players at my local store)

The Orks, DH and SoB seem like the only stagnated lines to me where I live

lanrak
11-02-2007, 00:50
Hi all.
Yes indeed SM ARE the most prevelant army used by 40k gamers.
And this means that most gamers think of MEQ or MEQ killer forces.
This has a negative effect on the games we actually play.
Lots of options are disreguarded as 'inefficient' because ther are more efficient anti MEQ options.

If you look at WH there is aquite even spread of armies represented by the armies that the gamers actually use.

I belive the sales % are somthing on the lines of 40% SM ,70% MEQ(SM/ CSM/SOB etc)And 30% non MEQ.( I cannot remember actual %s but SM were higher than ALL non MEQ armies combined.)

When I started playing 40k in RT days.(Yes I Am an Old Git.)
SM were jack of all trades masters of none.
Fixed squad sizes made any force list less cost effective than the current 'pick and mix' we have today.
Not to mention the unballanced trait system.
Pick advantages ,then pick a disadvantage that has no effect on your force,if you want.:eyebrows:

SO SM are the most cost effective force to purchase,and the most cost effective force in the game.

And therfore are overly popular, at the detriment to ballance in the games we actually play.

Why do GW think it is a good thing to only have a no-brainer force choice for 40k newbs?

When ther is not a 'no-brainer' choice for newbs in WH?
And WH is so much better for it IMO.

40k ballanced ,are you kidding me?
SMs [dice0]
Non SMs[dice1]

Warboss Grimmtoof
11-02-2007, 01:07
Please excuse all below rantings. Read at your own risk!

Space Marines may be the best for newbs, but its like plain chocolate ice cream. Its easy to use them well, but sooner or later you will want something that doesnt look copy-paste from squad to squad. I may have been a bit harsh (and I must admit some space marine forces go out of their way for personality and looks) but when you walk into a shop and see 7 space marine armies (three being ultramarines built so similarly that if you moved one model form a table to the next no one would ever notice) it just annoys me. Im not saying that all space marine players should quit, im saying that space marines need to be balanced like all other armies. There should not be an army that is cheaper and easier to use than any other, because people end up getting bored and leaving because they see the cool eldar army with the flying tanks and the awesome other armies with all the soul, and look down at their own army that looks the same from trooper to trooper. Then when they leave their old army for another, and it turns out to be really challenging to fight with, they get depressed and leave entirely. Thats just my 2 cents.:D
Oh and for the record, i've never bought a space marines model, EVER

Master Jeridian
11-02-2007, 01:22
Well Space Marines get a Codex released every other non-Space Marine Codex! Is that not enough proof?

There are how many Chaplain models?

It's pretty clear they do. I could rally and rage against it, but GW loves them, they are an easy sell, etc, etc- all mentioned above.


I have to agree that Warhammer doesn't have a 'favoured child' army- and it benefits greatly from this.

As for Vet's Nights having a wide variety of non-SM's. I have to agree, SM's have become quite a rarity around here.

But I think this is in spite of their favourtism, or maybe even because of it.
Veterans know SM's are their most expected tournament opponent, etc. Most non-SM, and SM armies TBH, are designed with MEq killing in mind. For example, the Mech Tau players in my gaming group will smash apart my tournament SM army no matter what I do- purely because their army is intrinsically tailored to mine. Now if I did the same, took Drop Pod Libby with Fear, etc it would be a close run game. But they can tailor to fight Marines and go to a tournament happy, I can't tailor to face Tau and do the same- an Irony if ever I saw one.

The SM popularity on the whole, means their effectiveness at tournaments and amongst Vet's is stunted except with 'extreme' lists.

So if SM's where just another army, and we saw a lot more hordes, it would benefit SM's too. Armies like the above Mech Tau would have to bring stuff to deal with hordes- autocannons, multi-lasers, mortars, flamers, etc would see more use, etc.

But that will never happen- SM's sell, GW is a business- do the math.

The_Outsider
11-02-2007, 01:31
Its getting close to balanced IMO.

SM (or MEQ's in general) still take the top slice for points effeciency and a lot of the older armies still pay through the nose for marine busting weapons.

However I do see GW slowly rectifying this, trying to keep mariens as 'ard as nails but not making AP3 weapons so common 3+ means nothing.

Its a slow process because the sheer scale of the task, but we are getting there.

Nids and Eldar are showing this, while both have dedicated anti MEQ (stealers and SC's) they have other ways of busting them by using the armie's synergy.

I'm sorta curious to see how DE would turn out (as is they don't need to make special measure to bust MEQs particularly over what they would to bust hordes).

But yeah, the dominance of marines is slowly ending dueto better army synergy.

Coragus
11-02-2007, 02:25
I would like to see GW paying more attention to their other lines, such as Epic or any of the other Fanatic games.

Wow. True that. I came into the hobby between 1993 and 1996 playing Epic and Blood Bowl. When GW revamped Epic, they ruined it. I came to 40K and Fantasy later, and now I have a bunch of worthless Epic stuff laying around.

As to the question at hand, absolutely do other armies come in second to SMs. Look at the Codex releases. SM, other, SM varient, other, SM varient, other. See what I mean?

Orbital
11-02-2007, 03:15
Do you feel that the other armies play second fiddle to Space Marines?

I do, but i'm okay with it. I respect that it's how GW makes its money. I play a side-army (one of the bigger ones, but still...) and I'm okay with that. I have all the models I need, I have all the rules I need.

If I played Dark Eldar or Orks, I might wonder when a sliver from the giant helping of attention that the Space Marines get will be thrown my way... but I don't know if I'd question it on a business level.

Hellebore
11-02-2007, 03:46
I have come to accept it, I'm not happy about it, but I accept it.

I wish orks and Imperial Guard were pushed as the classic enemies, as these are pretty much the largest armed forces in the galaxy (with the tyranid encroachment coming in fast behind).

What I DON'T like is when people 'justify' the amount of marines by saying that their background facilitates it. GW will change/add/remove background whenever they want to explain the existence of units/wargear that was never there before.

If they wanted to they could create MORE subcodicies for other armies than marines - because there just aren't that many of them.

The guard on the other hand have a crap-tin of regiments, orks are ALWAYS different, nid swarms evolve differently all the time (imagine 10 codicies on different evolutionary strains of tyranid), the eldar have whole shrines devoted to the aspects of war etc etc.

Marines are no more likely to have their own unique rules and structures than every other army list, it's just that they are the ones pushed in this manner.

It won't change, until GW does EVERY marine chapter as a codex, and then they'll HAVE to make codex Tyranid swarm 1234521s34d to keep making money.

Hellebore

The Grand Wazoo
11-02-2007, 04:08
If I played Dark Eldar or Orks, I might wonder when a sliver from the giant helping of attention that the Space Marines get will be thrown my way... but I don't know if I'd question it on a business level.

I play both those armies... and I do wonder :cries:

Orbital
11-02-2007, 04:10
I play both those armies... and I do wonder :cries:

You poor, brave soul. :)

505
11-02-2007, 04:13
SM tend to get a lot of attentionyes. (kinda like chaos in fantasy...but theres not that many chaos players in fantasy...just their little poney boys hehe)

anyways what I am tired of is all the SM codexs. If they were substantially different (like spacewolves) however releases like Black Templars that was 90% cut and past from the SM codex with a few little rules and boom "a new army"

but really what do you have right now
1 space marines
2 blood angels
3 dark angels
4 space wolves
5 deamon hunters
6 witchhunters (spacemarines with estrogen)
7 black templars
8 salamanders (although not a codex in themselves)

and yet chaos has how many other factions (that really play different from other chaos leagons) all crammed in one book.

They shoulda done one book with a more thought out in depth trait system (kinda like IG)

of all those space wolves and the two "hunters" codexs are the only ones that are significantly different to warrent a different codex (and don't get me going on "alien hunters")

edit: what next codex celestial lions "limit 20 spacemarines on the feild and no apothacaries and no inquisition"

Iracundus
11-02-2007, 04:20
Absolutely there is an imbalance in terms of development effort at the absolute minimum. The Marine, non-Marine Codex, release schedule is just one example. While some Xenos players are still waiting for their updated Codex, variant after variant of Marine comes out in separate mini-releases.

There is also the whole: "Fudge it with your main army list since it's so adaptable" and "All the Craftworlds/Clans/etc.. fight similarly so just fudge it" attitude whereas every little minor difference (or newly introduced fluff difference) in Marines is used as justification for a separate mini-Codex with special rules, units, characters, etc.

Hellebore
11-02-2007, 05:02
Absolutely there is an imbalance in terms of development effort at the absolute minimum. The Marine, non-Marine Codex, release schedule is just one example. While some Xenos players are still waiting for their updated Codex, variant after variant of Marine comes out in separate mini-releases.

There is also the whole: "Fudge it with your main army list since it's so adaptable" and "All the Craftworlds/Clans/etc.. fight similarly so just fudge it" attitude whereas every little minor difference (or newly introduced fluff difference) in Marines is used as justification for a separate mini-Codex with special rules, units, characters, etc.

This is my point EXACTLY;)

Hellebore

Misanthrope
11-02-2007, 05:24
Honestly, I see absolutely nothing wrong with how the different Traitor Legions are handled in the current Chaos Codex. With its setup, you can turn to one page and have one very distinct army, and on the next page is something completely different.

Not surprisingly, it seems they're now going to come out with several Chaos Legion books. Not that it's needed. But they seem to be on a mad rush to make money these days, and personally I think it's only going to put the in the hole further as people adapt and start downloading codecies online and making their own casts of models out of resin and buying most/all of their stuff off of eBay. I'm only a year into this game and I'm already doing it because the prices and hogwash just aren't justifiable. Being a pinko helps too, though. ;)

inane-fedaykin
11-02-2007, 06:19
I'd have to be rolling in it before you could convince me to buy what GW wants me to. It's a bit because some of the models obviously have a randomly jacked up price. Why exactly am I paying two and a half times as much for Eldrad then a regular farseer when they look almost identical? Why does an exarch cost more despite being 1 per blister while regular troops come in pairs?

GW's price scams can go to hell, I'll stick to used and converted thanks.

Along those lines, I challange anyone to make a competitive Eldar army out of nothing but converted guardians (minus the tanks, what are you gonna do there?).

Murphey
11-02-2007, 06:43
I think its obvious that the Space marines are overly favored.

They have some of the best stuff in the game.

And the Codex scheduel is a marine extravaganza.

4th ed hasent even gotten around to alot of the other armies yet, and Space Marines have gotten two codeces, and are rumored that they are getting ANOTHER one, this time a redux.

AngryAngel
11-02-2007, 06:59
Space Marines are like chainsaws in Gears of War: Their highly effective at shooting and close combat, but the other weapons that take practice and skill to use are far, far better in their alloted functions. And if you've played GoW for more than ten minutes, you get to realise that repeated chainsaw kills are about 100% the domain of the poor players and noobs.

Although not 100% of SM players are poor or noobish. I hasten to point this out, although I think even the experianced marine player knows that his army is overused...

And I really don't know much about GoW, so I may be incorrect in this analogy...

- Huw


Ok first off, unless your a noob or a poor player you know how to knock someone out of a chainsaw in GoW. If you know that the only real problem is if they sneak up on you. If they do that, a shotgun will blow ya apart or down ya at that close range as well. As well while chainsawing can be fun, it is time consumeing and any good player/team will just kill ya after the first one. So the analogy is a little weak. I do play alot of gears, so just commenting on that. The real noob manuver is the grenade tag. Just the same as the chainsaw but much harder to stop.

As for how effective the Lancer(chainsaw weapon) is at shooting, is not very if your a poor player. Using the shotgun is much more a luck based weapon, as well stronger over all. Very few times do you need to engage in long range shooting. As well I've played the game more then 10 minutes.

However the chainsaw does fit the marines in one way. People will tend to hate it beyond reason, because it is the flagship weapon in GoW. Its obviously cheese, it obviously doesn't take any skill. It obviously takes the place of all the other weapons. No, it doesn't. Nor do marines eclipse all other armies. The reason why noobs take them so much. Is because people all tell them to take them. Then..they complain and moan they're too many people using them.

So the saturation is the player communitys own fault. If you steer people towards what will fit their style, not what you believe is best for them. Maybe there would be more diversity. Hell..if I had known more exacts when I started playing. I woulda been a guard player, and been happy as that. I feel other armies feel they are second fiddle. Simply because people love to have something to complain about.

Corax
11-02-2007, 11:18
Space Marines are the bread-and-butter of GWs business, so it is natural that they try to squeeze as much out of them as possible. While this makes business sense, it doesn't necessarily make game sense. 40k would be pretty boring if it were just Marines beating on each other all the time. The game needs diversity in the form of as many other armies as it is economically viable for GW to produce.

While all the Marine love is a bit annoying, it should also be noted that the success of the SM line does allow them to (occasionally) being a little creative with something else, or at least support a line that might otherwise not be viable. GW has to walk a fine line between supporting its flagship product, and shooting itself in the foot by not supporting anything else. Unfortunately, they don't always get it right...

Iracundus
11-02-2007, 12:26
The thing is they have fresh new ground possible in expanding background and opportunities for other non-Marine races. The Eldar for example had next to nothing on individual Craftworlds for ages until the 3rd edition rolled around with Craftworld Eldar.

The endless round of yet another variant Chapter of Marines to be honest is getting rather boring. "Kill the alien, kill the heretic, go Emperor" *yawn*

At its worst extreme, the game risks turning into Marinehammer with one Codex: Non-Marine and all the other Codices being variations of Marines. Sound extreme? Perhaps, but it would certainly fit the feelings of those players of races still waiting for updates to their Codices.

Master Jeridian
11-02-2007, 12:36
I prefer the term: "What colour of Space Marines are you using?"
"Spiky or non-spiky?"

And I play SM's...

ashc
11-02-2007, 12:37
At its worst extreme, the game risks turning into Marinehammer with one Codex: Non-Marine and all the other Codices being variations of Marines. Sound extreme? Perhaps, but it would certainly fit the feelings of those players of races still waiting for updates to their Codices.

That is one of my worst fears, and from reading these forums you could certainly think it; I do however feel that the views on the boards gives a skewed vision of the gaming world at large; You do start to see alot of people popping out of the woodwork to say 'Actually, it's now rare to see a marine player where i play'; So is this really across the world, or is this more a syndrome of tournament metagame; the percentage of marines at these events is usually proportionally high compared to other races, considering how 'forgiving' the marine ruleset is thought to be.

I do not agree that Necrons and Sisters of Battle should be clumped in with Marines; As far as gameplay goes both armies play completely differently to one another and space marines. I do however think that Chaos Space Marines should be included under the tag, as i often see chaos armies that are more codex space marines than most people playing codex space marines, which is a real shame.

So, for those who have agreed that marines are the limelight-hoggers and it does bother you, in what way does it bother you? is it primarily the rules? the number of players? or the amount of attention the army gets from GW? or maybe even all the above.

Im glad this topic is really developing into something.

Ash

The_Outsider
11-02-2007, 12:46
It doesn't bother me.

As long as GW writes the new codices with marine dominance in mind (not like the 3rd ed ones where everyone was supposedly "equal") it'll be fine.

It will start to balance out the ease that marine have at destroying other race's infantry.

Its a delicate thing, but as long as its fair for each army, I do not mind marines being top dog.

Hena
11-02-2007, 12:46
I have started by playing with marines. And have stayed with them as well. At first I think it was because they were on on Imperiums side and highly trained, biologically upgraded killing machines. Then I kept on liking them when I read more of the fluff. Games wise, I liked them as there usually were less of them on board, but made up with their abilities and customisations. Then came later releases of 40k and marines have lost more and more of their options (I want back my anti-plant and plasma missiles and toxic and smoke grenades :)). Since I have little interest in buying another army (except I did buy Taus second hand) I'll keep playing with my marines.

Only thing that I'm bothered is that when I picked up a chapter, Ultramarines (in RT times), the GW have now made that the basic marine chapter... :p.


Wow. True that. I came into the hobby between 1993 and 1996 playing Epic and Blood Bowl. When GW revamped Epic, they ruined it. I came to 40K and Fantasy later, and now I have a bunch of worthless Epic stuff laying around.
I quess you haven't tried Epic: Armageddon? That's the latest incarnation of Epic and very good one as well. I would suggest to check out Specialist games forums (http://www.specialist-games.com/forum/) and posting there for players in your area. Or of course the epic section in these boards.

Iracundus
11-02-2007, 12:52
It seems to depend on one's personal location. While some locations may have few Marines, I think overall there are more locations where there is total Marine saturation.

The main gripe from my perspective is the ridiculous imbalance in the amount of attention and background when there is fertile ground for expansion on other fronts. Time and effort are the factors here. All those Marine variant releases take up valuable time in the lifespan of one edition, which could otherwise be spent to ensure at least all races get their base Codex out first before working on variants that can wait.

The effort is the 2nd half of the equation. It's rather annoying to say the least for non-Marine players to face the attitude of "All you Eldar/Orks/Necrons/whatever look and fight similarly so there's no need for additional variant lists/releases whereas these black armored marines with white trim are SO different from those white armored marines with black trim that we just HAVE to release a separate book with special characters and all new rules."

SamaNagol
11-02-2007, 13:12
One question:

Would you people who dont like Marines getting the lion's share of the attention, would you mind if the quirky unique army you played became the generic go to army that everyone starts off with?

And secondly I would just like to add that I find most people end up going back to Marines later in their gaming career because they are really fun to try and make unique and different. It's more of a challenge than just choosing a different army list.

Hellebore
11-02-2007, 13:46
One question:

Would you people who dont like Marines getting the lion's share of the attention, would you mind if the quirky unique army you played became the generic go to army that everyone starts off with?

No, but then I don't want ANY army to get the lion's share of attention. Why do you assume one MUST get this? Fantasy works perfectly fine without it.



And secondly I would just like to add that I find most people end up going back to Marines later in their gaming career because they are really fun to try and make unique and different. It's more of a challenge than just choosing a different army list.


Really fun to make unique? This is a self-fulfilling prophesy because they've been DESIGNED to allow you to do just that.

If other armies had the same amount of attention/codicies/rules they too would be just as fun to make unique.

Hellebore

susu.exp
11-02-2007, 14:39
Wow. True that. I came into the hobby between 1993 and 1996 playing Epic and Blood Bowl. When GW revamped Epic, they ruined it. I came to 40K and Fantasy later, and now I have a bunch of worthless Epic stuff laying around.

You did try out E:A, didn´t you? I stopped playing Epic when E:40k came out, but as soon as the early beta of E:A was available I went back to play. The best ruleset of all GW games right now and if time and money permitted I´d be building another army to go with my Chaos ond 'nids (both about 10k in TL points, I haven´t fielded either one completely in an E:A game yet).

On the topic: I think Marines get a lot of attention and other armies get far less. But to me this has made other armies more interesting. I never collected Marines, I paint up a successor chapters company gone Nurgle using DG rules right now, but even with the high customizability of SMs, they still feel constrained to me, while Orks, Tau, 'Nids and Eldar (all of which I have at least some of) rely on my ideas. And so I actually think GWs concentration on Marines has benefits for the other armies. I would like to see some other armies getting marine-level attention, but others should stay less detailed in fluff at least. R.Priestley once said, that it doesn´t pay to be to tidy with fluff. And I think they are getting very tidy with the Marines.

inane-fedaykin
11-02-2007, 16:48
At my local FLGS you can typicly find a guard or space marine army (this includes various chapters) on every table in use. The rest of the players seem to be split evenly between Eldar, Tau, Chaos and Tyranids. I'm yet to see a Necron player but someone did just sell a bunch...

edit: Forgot about chaos. All my friends seem to be getting into chaos now...

Master Jeridian
11-02-2007, 16:52
I want to change my first response to this thread:

"There are other armies?"

Cynical sarcasm, the highest internet humour.

Angelus Mortis
11-02-2007, 17:37
I dont see how anyone could not understand why Space Marines are the poster child of WH40k. I mean, who would you make as the poster child? Necrons? Chaos? IG? That would be even more odd IMHO. I believe the whole WH40k idea was bulit starting with and around SM from Rogue Trader. The cover of Rogue Trader with the Crimson Fist last stand on the cover is what absolutely sold me to this game hands down. If it hadn't been there, I probably would of just overlooked it as another niche game that was gonna be discontinued in a few months. And that was almost 20 years ago.

Skyweir
11-02-2007, 17:50
The Space Marines has been hogging the limelight for far to long. I just have to agree with what others have written in this thread, that there is no justifiable reason that SM should be the focus to such a degree.
GW could easily rectify this if they tried, by for instance taking a break from releasing Space Marine models and rules. Two Xenos codices in a row would be a nice change of pace, IMO.

From my perspective, this problem has become even worse lately. More an more people are playing marines, more and more models are released (like they need three new librarian models) and now there is talk about a redux of their codex, barelt 4 years since it's release. If it was a fantasy army, there would be riots...but in 40k this is acctually accepted as a reasonable idea.

Permanganate
11-02-2007, 18:37
...there is no justifiable reason that SM should be the focus to such a degree.

Because they sell; heard of "give your customers what they want"? Also, the plastics that GW is trying to make more of these days have a high initial cost, so they can only be made for more popular models. Plastic SM commanders yes, plastic <insert unpopular thing here, even a Vindicator> no.


GW could easily rectify this if they tried, by for instance taking a break from releasing Space Marine models and rules.

Yeah, if only GW would stop releasing space marines, everyone would buy the xenos they're told to buy!


Two Xenos codices in a row would be a nice change of pace, IMO.

The last two codexes were Tau and Eldar.


From my perspective, this problem has become even worse lately.

This goes years back, as far as I can tell, to the Index Astartes stuff near the beginning of the decade. I wasn't the only player who looked in them and went "oooh, Raven Guard Command Squad with lightning claws, got to get an army of those!" etc. Even then, they aren't the most popular army everywhere. My local GW has loads of Tau newbies and the veteran armies are from all over the range.


...now there is talk about a redux of their codex, barelt 4 years since it's release. If it was a fantasy army, there would be riots...but in 40k this is acctually accepted as a reasonable idea.

The codex needs it. And what's this stuff about riots? Hyberbole?

505
11-02-2007, 21:17
as stated I'm honostly tired of combating space marines. (yeah I know I do got some)

my opponents are in no particular order 2x ultramarines, 2x generic marine, imperial fists, space wolf, raven guard, legion of the damned, lost and damned, grey knights, one nurgle, one necron and one eldar.

now I try to make mine different in mynormal 1500 list I have 2 assult cannons on speeders and 15 bikes and a few attack bikes. and if I go to 4000 list just add 2 termie assults on landraider and 1 dread.... so I feel mine isn't the same cut and past....however thats why I ussually feild my imperial guard something different.

oh well I still think other races need something.

DoctorTom
11-02-2007, 21:27
Everybody's going on about SM vs Xenos codex attention. It would be nice if GW could give some more attention to other Imperial units - updating the Guard (or having some "Guard Variant" books with some truly different options the say they're putting out the SM Variant books), updating the different Inquisition books (I can understand in holding off on Xeno Hunters until after they get caught up with the Xenos books, but there still probably won't be anything earthshaking in the revisions of the Xenos books that they can't account for already in the Xeno Hunter books), and getting out something like an Adeptus Mechanicus codex.

They could alternate with "1 Imperium, 1 non-imperium" book every year, not "! Space Marine, 1 non-Imperium" book.

cailus
11-02-2007, 22:15
The problem with Marines is that they get so much attention that most people play them. The other armies get sidelined. I mean in 10 years of 40K I still have not faced an Eldar army!

And then there's the horrid waiting and the lack of adequate product range that non-SM experience.

For example the Orks are still using Gorkamorka/2nd ed vehicles, don't have figs for half of their specialist troops, have limited IC models without all available options, don't have a model for their one tank, don't have plastic models for Grots and have an antiquainted rules set.

Indrid Khold
12-02-2007, 01:31
The main problem to me is the lopsidedness in the fluff that results in all these damn marine codices. With the exception of the Black Templar list ("oh, so you paid 75 points for 3 Blessed Hulls and you now ... win automatically? That's a bargain") I don't really have much of a problem with marines in the rules, but for every page of backstory about anything else there are 20 pages of Space Marine backstory.

It's absurd. You think that each Craftworld doesn't have a longer, more unique, vastly more interesting history than your paltry Space Marine Chapter? It's a thousand Christian fundamentalist steroid abusers versus an entire alien sub-civilization that has probably been around in some form or another for millions of years.

The same goes for the ork clans, Imperial Guard regiments, and Dark Eldar Kabals (Dark Eldar anything, actually...). Tyranid strains could also be better developed, as could the Necron legions of different C'tan. I was first drawn to 40K because its backstory interested me, but this is becoming less and less true with every novel, codex, picture, and short story about the Space Marines coming in and kicking everyone's ass.

ALSO:

Regarding the "marines are popular because they sell" argument: that's a load of hogwash. It's true now, but it didn't have to be. Look at my pals the Dark Eldar, which are pretty much inarguably the least popular army in the game. But do you think that would be so if they had A) more than 17 pages of fluff ever written about them ever in the history of their existence; B) more than 2 troop choices; and C) models that don't look largely like crap?

Contrast with the Tau, who were supported properly upon their release and now (arguably) rival the Space Marines as far as the "newbie default" army goes.

If you support a line of merchandise, it will sell. The myth that the other races aren't as popular as the Space Marines is a self-fulfilling prophecy of marketing.

GraveDancer
12-02-2007, 01:55
but the tau still look terrible, and yet they're rising in popularity

Indrid Khold
12-02-2007, 02:02
The tau appeal very strongly to a facet of Science Fiction pop culture that is highly popular right now. I really dig their look myself, and so do a lot of other people.

GraveDancer
12-02-2007, 02:31
yeah, i don't.

i'm a prick that way

Noserenda
12-02-2007, 02:55
Marines get a lot of attention because people in general are willing to pay for more marine goodies, given that a few of the marine armies have fan bases as devoted and focused as most xenos races, its really not that unreasonable to treat them like different races to some extent, even if their troops are using similar kit.

Anyhow, with (at worst) alternating codexes i think the "Limelight hogging" is largely blown out of proportion by some folks :angel:

Check my utterly pointless dice roll[dice0]

TheBlueGrassGamer
12-02-2007, 03:41
Greetings,


Given that a few of the marine armies have fan bases as devoted and focused as most xenos races.

This is true, this is true. Makes one wander what would happen if GW turned to all of the BA, DA, BT, and SW players and went "Guess what! We're going to lump you into the main SM codex, isn't that fun? Don't worry, though, we'll give you some nifty chapter-specific grubbings!"

I just wonder if people truly realize how many points would be sunk into traits if they tried to represent a Blood Angels with the traits from the SM Codex. If I were a Blood Angels player, and wanted to represent them through the SM codex, I'd probally take Blessed be the Warriors and No Mercy, No Respite. No only do I need to build my army, but I have to do it on a points budget. Assuming that I'd built a standard army of a SM Captain, a ten-man command squad, and two ten-men tactical squads -- I'd have to factor in that I'd have to spend about 93 points *alone* to ensure everyone got the benefit of the Furious Charge USR. This before I start distributing specialist kit, mind you. And it could get cheaper if I don't need to spend the points to give the SM Captain the Furious Charge USR -- but not by much.

Really, I think putting all of the SM chapters into a single codex would be a mistake. You'd have to pretty much cut the fluff for specific Chapters (which alone could cause a riot/gnashing of teeth) because there would be no way you could fit the fluff for five non-Codex chapters on top of the generic space marine fluff in a book that has to cover every possible unit option for every space marine chapter out there. Trying to navigate the tactical squad entry alone would be mindboggoling, as you would have to try and figure out what the requirements were to field a mixed squad of bog standard SMs and scouts for your BT army......

When people start in with the ideas of combing all SM chapters into a single codex, they will being so at the expense of the character of the BAs, DAs, BTs, and SWs because no only will the rules for them be history --- so will the fluff. For a lot of newbies, the decision for which army to start out normally factors in the fluff. The SWs really captured my attention through the fluff, and made them one of the main forces I am considering for 40K.

Thanks,
Bluegrass

Coragus
12-02-2007, 03:51
I quess you haven't tried Epic: Armageddon? That's the latest incarnation of Epic and very good one as well.

I disagree. When GW changed Epic to Armageddon, they sucked all the character out of the game. Read "Character" to mean "loads of paperwork", but I loved that. For that very reason, I consider 40K second edition to be superior to either of the last two editions. Heresey, I know.

I'm not so old that I played Rouge Trader though, so I won't comment on that.

azimaith
12-02-2007, 06:02
The last two codexes were Tau and Eldar.

No, it was Black Templar and Eldar.

AngryAngel
12-02-2007, 07:35
Nope, it was Tau and Eldar. BT came out just before them.

Hena
12-02-2007, 08:29
I disagree. When GW changed Epic to Armageddon, they sucked all the character out of the game. Read "Character" to mean "loads of paperwork", but I loved that. For that very reason, I consider 40K second edition to be superior to either of the last two editions. Heresey, I know.

Did I then understand this correctly. You want to keep track of a lot of things in paper or dices during game? Interesting. Not really something I'd say as character of a game that, but then that's just me :D.

EmperorEternalXIX
12-02-2007, 09:05
Did it ever occur to anyone that maybe Marines aren't the most popular because they are the most supported...but perhaps they are the most supported, because they are the most popular?

You all have overlooked many key design elements of the whole game, honestly.

1.) A lot of you think this army is invincible and forgiving and las/plas is unstoppable and you have have 70 assault cannons for 2 points each and they are just a big old ************ factory. That's wrong.

2.) Who else are the heroes of this game? Have you looked at the other races? Most of them are bad. The Imperium are the good guys. Seriously--this is like complaining that the "Alien" movies all revolve around Ripley, instead of the Alien. The struggle for humanity's survival is the central story point of Warhammer 40,000; every other race either fights for shady or evil purposes

3.) People act like the Xenos get nothing. Maybe less models, sure, and not as many codex releases. But they want to make money. Do you think for one second that if they thought separate craftworld or separate tyranid strain codices have a chance to sell, they would make them? Besides, I have seen some Xeno BS that makes the marines look like a cakewalk, and it really bugs me that people only point the finger at the SM's like they're invincibly unbalanced when I regularly fight races who have so much more strength to them. Not to say they are underpowered but the whole world seems to want to nerf them into the floor and it's pretty ridiculous. I mean consider it from my point of view: There are armies were whole squads get weapon upgrades for free...low-cost exarchs have better stats than the 80ish point Force Commander...tons of armies are fearless...many have customizations to do things like ignore or reroll wounds, reduce armor saves, whereas all we have access to are furious charge, tank hunters, and infiltrate...some armies can have 4 pie plates per turn that break through our armor, whereas we have no artillery at all...our sergeants end up costing 30 points before we even think about giving them a special weapon...there are armies where people can come back to life and teleport, all while having the same saves as marines with higher leadership and some better weapons...all the other armies have monstrous creatures while we get none...certain configs of imperial guard can have a monstrous amount of lascannons on the board...our biggest unit is a transport tank that puts out only slightly more firepower than a normal squad of marines...some armies have fleet of foot, whereas we don't...other armies have weapons that ignore terrain, which we also don't have (other than flamers)...we only have one rending weapon...we have las/plas but everyone bitching seldomly remembers that the plasma gun is usess up to 25 inches away and it usually melts the guy shooting it anyway, and the lascannon can't fire if it moves, thus usually only one of the two can be brought to bear.

I could go on like that forever.

The trait system is a good example. Most of the SM traits just let you change the configuration of the army, not make it better. Just different. One, for example, allows us to take Dreadnoughts as either elites of heavy support, when they are normally just elites. This allows us some flexibility; we can use a heavy support slot for dreadnoughts and leave the elite slots free for terminators; we can get six dreadnoughts (which is probably borderline suicidal); we can have more than one dread without wasting elite slots on the extras, etc.

What people fail to acknowledge is many traits, this one included, have a drawback in and of itself. This one is clear: take the three options above as an example: If you take dreads on all six slots then you blow 630 points on what are ultimately fairly defeatable lightly armed walkers, or if you mix and match you lose access to other useful options, like Veteran Squads or Devastators or Terminators.

In the end the story told is that of humanity's struggle to stay afloat in the midst of cosmic war on an unhead of scale. To tell that story from the point of any of the other races is to defeat the point of that struggle.

I do agree about other fluff for groups like the eldar or the orks. And I do agree that the orks need to be looked at badly (I'm a rookie and even I can tell they need some help). But I think all of this "Space Marines are for newbs and they just use them to make money" bit needs to stop.

I picked the Space Marines as my first (and probably my only) army. Why? Not because I was a newb. Not because someone sold me on them. Not because I was seeing their faces everywhere in the store. It was none of that.

I picked the Space Marines for two reasons:
1.) Because I want to be the stalwart and stoic saviors of humanity, and
2.) Because I want to be an army of super bad-ass mushroom cloud-laying mother****ers with no fear and balls the size of cinder blocks.

In the end I think the first line of this post makes my point in full, regardless.

Master Jeridian
12-02-2007, 09:53
Who else are the heroes of this game? Have you looked at the other races? Most of them are bad. The Imperium are the good guys. Seriously--this is like complaining that the "Alien" movies all revolve around Ripley, instead of the Alien. The struggle for humanity's survival is the central story point of Warhammer 40,000; every other race either fights for shady or evil purposes

You kind of lost any credibility right here...

HalfEvil333
12-02-2007, 10:09
I have 3 problems with Marines:

1. Over-promoted. Anyone that says GW doesn't favor Marines has never walked into one of their stores or opened a White Dwarf.

2. Assault Cannon. That's the only rule in the entire codex I have an issue with. The loss of rending is all I ask.

3. The need for every chapter to have a seperate book. One for basic Marines, one for Crusader chapters, and one for DA, BA, and SW (and only if they give Xenos some alternative lists, too) would suffice.

Sure, these are the same things everyone complains about, but maybe that says something?


You kind of lost any credibility right here...

With you on that one.

lector#1
12-02-2007, 10:41
would u say all marine armys are newbie i find that raven wing or other branch offs of the marines require more than just luck to play any thoughts on this??

ashc
12-02-2007, 10:45
Marines are certainly very often the army new players pick up, and often this actually is not the best action for them (as has been discussed a million times on this board). Because of this i feel that the majority of the marine players/armies seen are actually quite poor, but the army is most 'forgiving' and so they can get away with it. When a veteran to the game comes back to space marines people can really engineer the army into a force to be reckoned with; but i would say that there are other armies that can do that better (the eldar, dark eldar, and tau for instance).

The Deathwing and Ravenwing are such a divergence from normal marine army doctrine that i feel they deserve seperate mention to standard marine armies when it comes to how they play; although of course background and fluffwise you cannot escape the fact that they are still space marines.

Ash

Shasolenzabi
12-02-2007, 10:59
[[[ The SM have always been the main guys in 40k even since Rogue Trader. The IG were a second army, and over the years they have revamped the Marines more than the guard, and are doing it all over again. the IG got revamped just in time for Eye of Terror back in 2003, the Marines get revamped after each alien or other codex, and they have Marines of some flavor or another in Daemonhunter armies, and even Witch-Hunters! But, always, the Marines are always looming large in the 40k universe. Especially amazing as they are less numerous post heresy than pre-heresy! IG are the Most numerous, and they could use a few changes. I want carapace down to 10pts per squad! and something to make Guard less a punching bag for the close combat armies out there.

But the Marines are likely to always be the most noticed and hyped since all the guys and gals at GW have an SM army.

mxer394
12-02-2007, 11:32
Yeah, I agree with the TC. I'm pretty new to Warhammer, and already I detect a bias towards the Space Marines. Almost everyone I know play them, save for some hardcore Ork and Tau players.

I started with Space Marines, and I've read the codexes for most of the races, and I also think that the Space Marines have a slight advantage in an actual battle. Although, by no means am I saying that the Space Marines are really far superior. A good player could surely overcome the things I saw.

It's really a matter of opinion.

f2k
12-02-2007, 11:38
Really, I think putting all of the SM chapters into a single codex would be a mistake. You'd have to pretty much cut the fluff for specific Chapters (which alone could cause a riot/gnashing of teeth) because there would be no way you could fit the fluff for five non-Codex chapters on top of the generic space marine fluff in a book that has to cover every possible unit option for every space marine chapter out there. Trying to navigate the tactical squad entry alone would be mindboggoling, as you would have to try and figure out what the requirements were to field a mixed squad of bog standard SMs and scouts for your BT army......



And yet this worked with the Chaos codex. Mind you, that codex can be a *bib* to use and some of the Legions are less than balanced. But they're all there. Why can't Codex Space Marine cover all 1. Founding legions in the same way?

Stormsender
12-02-2007, 12:38
Did it ever occur to anyone that maybe Marines aren't the most popular because they are the most supported...but perhaps they are the most supported, because they are the most popular?

You all have overlooked many key design elements of the whole game, honestly.

1.) A lot of you think this army is invincible and forgiving and las/plas is unstoppable and you have have 70 assault cannons for 2 points each and they are just a big old ************ factory. That's wrong.

2.) Who else are the heroes of this game? Have you looked at the other races? Most of them are bad. The Imperium are the good guys. Seriously--this is like complaining that the "Alien" movies all revolve around Ripley, instead of the Alien. The struggle for humanity's survival is the central story point of Warhammer 40,000; every other race either fights for shady or evil purposes

3.) People act like the Xenos get nothing. Maybe less models, sure, and not as many codex releases. But they want to make money. Do you think for one second that if they thought separate craftworld or separate tyranid strain codices have a chance to sell, they would make them? Besides, I have seen some Xeno BS that makes the marines look like a cakewalk, and it really bugs me that people only point the finger at the SM's like they're invincibly unbalanced when I regularly fight races who have so much more strength to them. Not to say they are underpowered but the whole world seems to want to nerf them into the floor and it's pretty ridiculous. I mean consider it from my point of view: There are armies were whole squads get weapon upgrades for free...low-cost exarchs have better stats than the 80ish point Force Commander...tons of armies are fearless...many have customizations to do things like ignore or reroll wounds, reduce armor saves, whereas all we have access to are furious charge, tank hunters, and infiltrate...some armies can have 4 pie plates per turn that break through our armor, whereas we have no artillery at all...our sergeants end up costing 30 points before we even think about giving them a special weapon...there are armies where people can come back to life and teleport, all while having the same saves as marines with higher leadership and some better weapons...all the other armies have monstrous creatures while we get none...certain configs of imperial guard can have a monstrous amount of lascannons on the board...our biggest unit is a transport tank that puts out only slightly more firepower than a normal squad of marines...some armies have fleet of foot, whereas we don't...other armies have weapons that ignore terrain, which we also don't have (other than flamers)...we only have one rending weapon...we have las/plas but everyone bitching seldomly remembers that the plasma gun is usess up to 25 inches away and it usually melts the guy shooting it anyway, and the lascannon can't fire if it moves, thus usually only one of the two can be brought to bear.

I could go on like that forever.

The trait system is a good example. Most of the SM traits just let you change the configuration of the army, not make it better. Just different. One, for example, allows us to take Dreadnoughts as either elites of heavy support, when they are normally just elites. This allows us some flexibility; we can use a heavy support slot for dreadnoughts and leave the elite slots free for terminators; we can get six dreadnoughts (which is probably borderline suicidal); we can have more than one dread without wasting elite slots on the extras, etc.

What people fail to acknowledge is many traits, this one included, have a drawback in and of itself. This one is clear: take the three options above as an example: If you take dreads on all six slots then you blow 630 points on what are ultimately fairly defeatable lightly armed walkers, or if you mix and match you lose access to other useful options, like Veteran Squads or Devastators or Terminators.

In the end the story told is that of humanity's struggle to stay afloat in the midst of cosmic war on an unhead of scale. To tell that story from the point of any of the other races is to defeat the point of that struggle.

I do agree about other fluff for groups like the eldar or the orks. And I do agree that the orks need to be looked at badly (I'm a rookie and even I can tell they need some help). But I think all of this "Space Marines are for newbs and they just use them to make money" bit needs to stop.

I picked the Space Marines as my first (and probably my only) army. Why? Not because I was a newb. Not because someone sold me on them. Not because I was seeing their faces everywhere in the store. It was none of that.

I picked the Space Marines for two reasons:
1.) Because I want to be the stalwart and stoic saviors of humanity, and
2.) Because I want to be an army of super bad-ass mushroom cloud-laying mother****ers with no fear and balls the size of cinder blocks.

In the end I think the first line of this post makes my point in full, regardless.

Dude you hit the nail on the head as far as I am concerned I have been amazed at all the marine hate going on glad I guess the store I hang out at sees me as a regular player and not some noob, I just enjoy the game. :skull:

jfrazell
12-02-2007, 12:46
Well...yeah. You can't argue they don't.

Which "army" has multiple codexes? Marines. Question answered.

ashc
12-02-2007, 12:50
No one is arguing that Space Marines are not an immediate draw for players being introduced to the game; many people (i include myself in this) are drawn to the superhuman protectors of humanity tag that the space marines come with, and as one of the few original things of the GW IP that 40k has, they are used as the flagship race (i mean, why would seeing nids and guard fighting draw you to 40k over Starship Troopers for instance?) - Space Marines have few sci-fi equivalents in the scifi gaming spectrum as most companies now try to avoid doing something 'too space mariney'.

I think the problem arises where the amount of people playing the flagship army combined with the 'forgiving' ruleset becomes detrimental to the game as a whole; is this how people feel towards space marines?

Ash

azimaith
12-02-2007, 13:08
2.) Who else are the heroes of this game? Have you looked at the other races? Most of them are bad. The Imperium are the good guys. Seriously--this is like complaining that the "Alien" movies all revolve around Ripley, instead of the Alien. The struggle for humanity's survival is the central story point of Warhammer 40,000; every other race either fights for shady or evil purposes

Bwahahahahahaha! *Rolls on the floor laughing uncontrollably!*

Seriously Emperor Eternal, you know what the Imperium fights for?
Galactic Genocide
They are crazy ass supremacist who think its their manifest destiny to control the universe and destroy all the aliens to make it nice and pure for humanity. Good, bad, neutral, they don't care. They'll gas em, burn em, kill their women, children, elderly and whatever other permutations that would be "dishonorable " to kill and they'll do it with a big grin because they thrive on death and suffering of the xenos races. They espouse a doctrine of hatred and intolerance to even races that would be their allies or to help them battle against other evils because they don't have the "purity" that mankind has.

The Imperium is like the Third Reich where Hitler actually *succeeds* and it won't stop until its slaughtered and burned every last xenos and heretic down to the last newborn babe because of their virulent ignorant hate-filled dogma.

The Imperium are good guys, you sir, show a fundamental misunderstanding of what the Imperium is and what it stands for.

As for the rest of your post; tripe.

You actually get angry that xenos races show some sort of difference from marines!
Marine hate spawns from their over-emphasis in the 40k universe.

Kriegsherr
12-02-2007, 13:27
Well, I think its time we non-marine players all get over the fact that marines will get the majority of GW's love for a very long time.

GW has proven with the codex tau empires and eldar, and all the rumoured xenos releases within the next two years, that they haven't forgotten the xenos players completly, and really are trying to do them justice this time around (as opposed to the really rushed codices in 3rd edition).
On the other side it seems that marines have reached the top of their "cheesiness" (as in getting more with every new codex while paying less or at least not more), the codex DA is really a step in the right direction away from the Marines as the most flexible list (that they never should have been. The marine itself might be the most flexible warrior in the galaxy, the army itself should be quite strict and restricted in their options due to their fluff).

I for my part don't care if every second codex is a marine codex as long as they keep them balanced and don't try to promote them with OTT Rules. The last two codices for marines really have cooled down my marine-hate stirred up by the OP Codex SM for 4th edition, and the rumours of a more balanced Codex SM redux makes me really happy. Maybe, in about two years, marines will not dominate the scene anymore because they are imbalanced, but because people like them most from a fluff and mini perspective. I can live with this fact, as it means my non-marine army is more special.

Really, there is nothing wrong with marines beeing the poster boys as long as GW is not making them insanely overpowered.
And as long as there is FW, and GW is making a big amount of releases for xenos with their codices, the mini section doesn't look that bad for non-marine armies either.

Now the problem with GW still not supporting any non-marine chaos armies, that IS a grave one. I fear LatD, Traitor Guard, Muties and Demons will not receive any love again in this edition. All while chaos marines will get more codices. THIS is making me angry, because there is not even an official LatD List from 3rd ed (the mini-list for EoT doesn't really counts) to hang on while continuing the long wait for a shiney new codex.


@ EmperorEternalXIX:

saying the Imperium are good guys is like saying the n4zis only wanted the best for humanity.

They are fascists, they genocidal, they don't care about human life and they hate everything that doesn't looks as human as they themself.

Then again, there are no real other heroes in 40k. Even the Tau, who are seen as "The good guys" by most, have their dark sides.
But thats what is elevating 40k over most other sci-fi and fantasy universes and makes it more "real"... because in RL, there are no heroes and no good guys. Only guys that are on your side and guys that are on the other.
And thats exactly why its important to have the story told from the perspective of all races. Because what an imperial bloke see as rightous cause is a brutal, fascistic and inhuman view to a tau citizen. And vice versa.

jfrazell
12-02-2007, 13:45
Its a rare day I agree with Azimaith, but this is a correct statement. You have to develop your own "counts as" list with fluff if you want some "good guys." Marines definitely aren't it. Course this comes from someone who comes with RT notions of what marines were and still thinks those are appropriate. Xenos sighted…cleansed, humans exhibiting mutation…cleansed. Returning to base.

What really bothers me is not the multiple codexes, the fact that marines have far and away the most plastic options, no what bothers me is that in any “neutral” fluff, its always some 100 marine guys that save the day. 8 trillion guardsmen attack, but if its not for those five guys from the Emperor’s Mailed Diapers Chapter, all would have been a lost cause. Frankly its so bad, even discussing some different chapters would be nice-its always the same four chapters.

Kriegsherr
12-02-2007, 13:52
What really bothers me is not the multiple codexes, the fact that marines have far and away the most plastic options, no what bothers me is that in any “neutral” fluff, its always some 100 marine guys that save the day. 8 trillion guardsmen attack, but if its not for those five guys from the Emperor’s Mailed Diapers Chapter, all would have been a lost cause. Frankly its so bad, even discussing some different chapters would be nice-its always the same four chapters.

Chill, man, we all know this is just imperial propaganda for the unwashed masses, and the 100 Marines would have been completly wiped out if the Imperial Guard regiment wouldn't have given them artillery support and saved the day.

This is a sad fact even in real life. There are the false heroes, that get all the credit just because of their reputation, flashiness and because they were at right place at the right time.
Yet there are the unsung true heroes, that never will get any medal for their hard labour to make the victory come true.

Captain Micha
12-02-2007, 13:59
Trust me the rines have nothing to do with humanity's survival... the Ig do the work. ALL Of it. contrary to what Black library and gw would like to tell us. Logistically its impossible for the rines to actually do as much as they allegedly do.


The heroes of 'helsreach' from the bts.. yea.... even cod says only three chapters were ever present on armageddon in the third war.... helsreach fell anyway and they ALL died. there is no "hero of helsreach" guess what.. none of the chapters were bts. Prime example of gw using rines to try to explain away every victory of the Imperium. At least Cod put the credit back where it is due. Yarrick, with cod.

also, they could do the multiple divergent chapters in one codex with ease.... just make the traits and appropriate drawbacks. maybe make a "pick up this doctrine for x amount of points. or take this draw back and get the trait for free" ie furious charge for black rage and red thirst. etc etc etc

Severian
12-02-2007, 14:04
Ok my two cents worth. I started a marine army because I love the fluff and I bet so does a lot of other people. Also take into account that with all the chapters available and the option to create your own (and don't we hobbyist like to create) there is scope for thousands of chapters. Is it any surprise that Spacemarines are so popular? Yet when I look at my local club SM are most definitely not in the majority.

They do get a lot of gear and kits but since I'm loving it I'm not going to complain.:cool:

Getz
12-02-2007, 14:27
Okay, I know it's petty and I know he hasn't been here long, but I'm going to pick EmperorEternalXIX's post apart bit by bit...


Did it ever occur to anyone that maybe Marines aren't the most popular because they are the most supported...but perhaps they are the most supported, because they are the most popular?
This is an old, old argument... The fact is that no one knows because we've got into a chicken and egg scenario here. However, back in the RT and early 2nd Ed days when Marines didn't get quite such a lions share of the publicity (and where not quite so strong in rules terms) they were not as popular. Make of that what you will


You all have overlooked many key design elements of the whole game, honestly.
How exactly? I understood one of the key design elements of the game was supposed to be balance and that is clearly what is missing here.


1.) A lot of you think this army is invincible and forgiving and las/plas is unstoppable and you have have 70 assault cannons for 2 points each and they are just a big old ************ factory. That's wrong.
Reductio ad Absurdum is a logical fallacy because it fails to recognise degrees of meaning. the exagerated example you give is - as you correctly point out - ************. It does not neccessarily follow that the more moderate position actually being presented elsewhere in the thread is also ************.


2.) Who else are the heroes of this game? Have you looked at the other races? Most of them are bad. The Imperium are the good guys. Seriously--this is like complaining that the "Alien" movies all revolve around Ripley, instead of the Alien. The struggle for humanity's survival is the central story point of Warhammer 40,000; every other race either fights for shady or evil purposes
You clearly haven't been reading your fluff all that carefully. The Astartes are brainwashed, fascistic, religious zealot Ubermensch and the whole idea of the Imperium is that it's the best of a bad bunch. There are no Good Guys in 40K (except perhaps the Salamanders, and the Tau;))


3.) People act like the Xenos get nothing. Maybe less models, sure, and not as many codex releases. But they want to make money. Do you think for one second that if they thought separate craftworld or separate tyranid strain codices have a chance to sell, they would make them?
No one will ever know until they try, but the popularity of alternate lists like the various Armageddon Guard Regiments (now all incorporated into the Doctrine system) , Tyranid seeding swarm and LatD lists suggests there's a market out there for more variety in army lists, not less.


Besides, I have seen some Xeno BS that makes the marines look like a cakewalk, and it really bugs me that people only point the finger at the SM's like they're invincibly unbalanced when I regularly fight races who have so much more strength to them. Not to say they are underpowered but the whole world seems to want to nerf them into the floor and it's pretty ridiculous.
Proportionately, there is very little fluff where the Marines get trashed (usually it's the poor old Guard who are the whipping boys), whereas just about every Black Library book seems intent on telling us how "uber" the Marines are and GW publishes over twice as much Marine fluff as any other race receives.


I mean consider it from my point of view: There are armies were whole squads get weapon upgrades for free...
Either you're talking about squads like Fire Dragons - in which cae the cost of the fusion gun is included in the cost of the basic trooper - or more likely I assume you mean things like Tau Fire Warriors being able to exchange Pulse Rifles for Carbines at no cost. This is because neither weapon is significantly better than the other (in fact, most Tau players would consider a pulse carbine a downgrade). Hardly the game breaking scenario you imply it to be. Another example might be Traitors in the LatD list being able to exchange their lasgun for a shotgun or laspistol and close combat weapon at no cost... :cheese: :eyebrows:


low-cost exarchs have better stats than the 80ish point Force Commander...
But don't have access to the broad selection of wargear available to SM Characters, nor are they independant characters, nor are they and HQ choice... Besides, high powered squad leaders is one of the thematic ideas behind aspect squads. It's what makes Eldar different to everyone else. By the sounds of things you just want Marines to get every special rule under the sun...


tons of armies are fearless...
But nobody else gets ATSKNF, which is better.


many have customizations to do things like ignore or reroll wounds, reduce armor saves, whereas all we have access to are furious charge, tank hunters, and infiltrate...
Is that all! Poor you. :rolleyes:

I play Guard, who get none of the above skills. Do you see me crying about it? Again, it just sound like you are jealous of other armies special rules. Let's remind you of what SMs get that nobody else does...

ATSKNF
Rites of Battle
Drop Pods
Units who may Deep-strike no matter what the Scenario Rules say
A Ranged Rending Weapon

Plus a whole bunch of other stuff like Deep Striking vehicles which only appear in a few other codexes - plus Veteran skills.

You'll be hard pressed to find another army list with access to so many party tricks.


some armies can have 4 pie plates per turn that break through our armor, whereas we have no artillery at all...
Whirlwind? Vindicator?

Only two armies get more than three Ordnance weapons in an army. They are Armoured Company - who have more weaknesses than they have strengths - and Iron Warriors - who are widely held to be the most broken army list in the game. If you're using those two armies as you basis for comparison then you're critical thinking apparatus needs a bit of adjustment


our sergeants end up costing 30 points before we even think about giving them a special weapon...
Did it occur to you that that might be because they are BS4, WS4, T4, S4, I4, WI, A2, Ld9 models... What did you expect? Free handouts? It costs so much to upgrade an SM sergeant because the improvements are significant and durable (unlike the 6 points to upgrade a Guard sergeant, where the improvements are less significant and are not durable). Compare and contrast to Tau Squad leader upgrades if you want to see a bum deal in action.


there are armies where people can come back to life and teleport, all while having the same saves as marines with higher leadership and some better weapons...
Wrong, there is One army where people can come back to life and teleport, all while having the same saves as marines. As to Leadership and weapons - I'd take Ld9 and ATSKNF over Ld 10 any day and although the Gauss Flayer is individually better than a bolter, the Necron army have very little access to special or heavy weapons of any kind - and even less of the all important AP3.


all the other armies have monstrous creatures while we get none...
Wow! I never knew that Guard got a Monstrous creature - and apparently so do Orks, Tau and Sisters! Only five armies get MCs - Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Chaos and Tyranids. Of those, only Eldar, Chaos and Tyranids field them regularly.


certain configs of imperial guard can have a monstrous amount of lascannons on the board...
Wich cost 25 points a pop on a T3 5+ Sv BS3 model, unlike the 15 point Lascannons Tactical Marines get...


our biggest unit is a transport tank that puts out only slightly more firepower than a normal squad of marines...
...has AV14 all around and is the only closed top vehicle you can assault out of. Doesn't seem such a bad deal now does it.


some armies have fleet of foot, whereas we don't...
Some Armies get ATSKNF...
Some Armies get Drop Pods...
Etc...


other armies have weapons that ignore terrain, which we also don't have (other than flamers)...
And Heavy flamers and Inferno Cannons if you are using the Seige Dreadnought rules...

So in other words, SM do get weapons that ignore terrain.


we only have one rending weapon...
Which is more than nearly anyone else gets... Only two other armies have rending, and both only in CC. The Assault cannon is cheap and easily available. In fact I'm insulted you'd even bring it up in a post claiming how hard done by Marines are.


we have las/plas but everyone bitching seldomly remembers that the plasma gun is usess up to 25 inches away and it usually melts the guy shooting it anyway, and the lascannon can't fire if it moves, thus usually only one of the two can be brought to bear.
Marines usually survive plasma gun overheats thanks to their sterling armour save. Want to bitch about the Gets Hot rule? Try playing Guard. Face facts, you've got it better than anyone else with the same or similar weapons loadout. Hell, if I manage to break your squad with shooting, they'll regroup automatically and then carry on shooting as if nothing happened. No one else gets anything even nearly as good as that!



I could go on like that forever.
And you would still be just as wrong.


The trait system is a good example. Most of the SM traits just let you change the configuration of the army, not make it better. Just different. One, for example, allows us to take Dreadnoughts as either elites of heavy support, when they are normally just elites. This allows us some flexibility; we can use a heavy support slot for dreadnoughts and leave the elite slots free for terminators; we can get six dreadnoughts (which is probably borderline suicidal); we can have more than one dread without wasting elite slots on the extras, etc.
So, Unlike the rest of us, who have to choose which Elite choice to take, you get to take both with no sweat. This isn't allowing a little flexibilty into a rigid list - this is taking a highly flexible list and allowing you to throw the FOC out of the window! This is the kind of thing that gave the Craftworld Eldar codex such a bad reputation.

As to the traits themselves, about half of them allow you to upgrade you Marines in one way or another - stuff like True Grit and counter-attack, bolt pistols and close combat weapons for tactical squads, Furious Charge or Infiltrate for all. That kind of thing...


What people fail to acknowledge is many traits, this one included, have a drawback in and of itself. This one is clear: take the three options above as an example: If you take dreads on all six slots then you blow 630 points on what are ultimately fairly defeatable lightly armed walkers, or if you mix and match you lose access to other useful options, like Veteran Squads or Devastators or Terminators.
A bad example, as Dreadnoughts are not the strongest unit in the world anyway, so there isn't much point maxing out on them. However, what about the one that lets you take Devestator squads as elites - or the other one that lets you take Assault Marines as Elites. A shooting army with three Dev squads and three Predators would be pretty harsh. A fast army with three Assault Marine squads and nine Landspeeders anyone?

And then there's the drawbacks... Even the major ones aren't terribly crippling and most of the minor ones are laughably irrelevant.


In the end the story told is that of humanity's struggle to stay afloat in the midst of cosmic war on an unhead of scale. To tell that story from the point of any of the other races is to defeat the point of that struggle.

I do agree about other fluff for groups like the eldar or the orks. And I do agree that the orks need to be looked at badly (I'm a rookie and even I can tell they need some help). But I think all of this "Space Marines are for newbs and they just use them to make money" bit needs to stop.

This much at least I can agree with you on.


I picked the Space Marines as my first (and probably my only) army. Why? Not because I was a newb. Not because someone sold me on them. Not because I was seeing their faces everywhere in the store. It was none of that.

reasons:
1.) Because I want to be the stalwart and stoic saviors of humanity, and
2.) Because I want to be an army of super bad-ass mushroom cloud-laying mother****ers with no fear and balls the size of cinder blocks.

In the end I think the first line of this post makes my point in full, regardless.

Look, if you dig Marines and want to play with them, that's fine and no one's going to stop you, but don't come here telling us how sad it is in Power-armoured-land because none of us are buying it. I have a Marine army of my own so I know exactly how things stack up and none of the other armies I have played with can touch them for versatility and durabilty.

Captain Micha
12-02-2007, 14:52
Getz thank you... you are the man!

you hit on the head squarely everything about the rines that make me think the players of said army should stop going "why do they hate us" its because you have the best rules, the best guns (even though THREE races are supposedly technologically superior), the best armor. Oh and you can ignore the Foc completly pretty much.

I'm still fine with the marines over all. I just wish that other armies. *Like necrons* got so much attention and love on. I can represent ANY chapter with the traits system.. yet oh look they all get new codecii anyway.

Why can't I have units that throw out the foc in Tau?

Why not guard? (they sort of can... if you call granadiers anything other than a troop choice)

Shinguuji
12-02-2007, 14:57
I do agree that marines get far too much attention. There is a good reason for it though

The guy that introduced me to 40k plays guard. I thought then guard was the most popular, since they're the generic 'army'. I was so wrong. I picked blood angels for the furioso, and because they're red. Later, I found out that they're ultra hard supermen that can bite through the hardest steel. The attraction simply grew.

Simply put, you put in effort to paint models. Do you like to paint giant supermen that can crush a man's head in his palms, or do you like the flashlight toting guard? Which one gives you more satisfaction? When you paint marines at a higher level, you spend far more time on that marine, because they are pretty detailed, so why, paint the humble guant to such a level, when you can paint a glorious marine? Also, marines looks very good, compared to certain races. Some races(like the old 'nids) are simply not worth your time to paint at all.

I'm trying to reticify that by collecting 'nids. Even then, I sigh when painting gaunts. I spend so much time on a 6 pt. model that dies to everything except a guardsman flashlight.

Next point : Fluff.
Marine. A stallwart defender of the empire, tall, strong, exotic, everything you aspire to be, with a hint of mystery. Who can't love them? Compare them to a guardsman. Small(relatively), weak, aspiration in life is try not to get killed by your comissar. Most people I don't think has a problem with starting xenos as a 2nd army, but for a first, they usually want the 'good guys'(humans), who are hard as nails.

Eldar is the second most popular army at places, but frankly, I don't see much potential in them other than their hardcore fans. Space elves. Hmmmm. They feel a lot for things... Hmmmm. They're arrogant. Hmmmm. What else can be said of them? They're too alien for anyone to connect to. If they have bloodrituals in which they're cut a million times, most of us couldn't care less, because they're alien. It's 'natural' for them to do so. For space marines, we're enthralled, shocked and fascinated when they're gutted, modified, trained, whacked, replaced, extracted. It's foreign, yet we can connect to it, because they're still humans. I think people can connect better to any of the primarchs, even the psychotic ones, better than they can to eldar. Apply the entire paragraph above to human like-yet alien species such as tau. Not a direct flame to anyone, but the ones that complains the most (especially on another forum) are the eldar players, when their army is the 2nd most populous. I say, tone them down, for a dying breed, there are far too many of them.

'Nids....they eat stuff. Not much fluff. Ironically, I enjoy the 'nid fluff the most, but there's too little of it. Necrons are just dead men walking, they kill. Full stop.

Orks, now I don't see why they aren't popular(which I'll come to next part). They have crazy fluff, and are insane and fun, just like a funfair ride. They're alien, but so is a funfair ride.

Last point : The powergame
Seriously, I don't think 'noobs'(we're all noobs once) pick space marines because they're powerful. Think about it, they know moot, and most of their first lists are rubbish. If people tried to advertise space marines as powerful, all the eldar, tau, iron warriors(especially them!), etc. Will rush in and promote their army, which brings me to the point on orks.

I wanted to get orks at first, but they told me it was a very 'advanced' army. Seriously, not many will promote them at all, and many that play them consider them underpowered. Not very encouraging.

Oh, and one more point. All the complains made basically goes down the drain if you contridict them in your later posts. Many people(in many forums) say 'SM suck! their assault cannon is cheese!' in one thread, and in the next say something like 'my dark eldar can kill your entire SM army in a turn(or something to that effect).' I can spot a few posts around here. In fact, in 'the other forum', when someone does this, a mod will always step in and say 'how can you defeat them in 1 turn, explain or your point is spam.' Do try to be consistent.

Fred_Scuttle
12-02-2007, 15:05
Play Second Fiddle? - thats a loaded question.

SM are the Jedi of 40K. Faulty heros with 133t powers, ships, weapons and history. They are the center of the 40K universe that everything else is gauged against.

As many others have pointed out - all other Army types suffer in comparison to the releases SM gets - but it would be like saying Star Wars should REALLY be about the struggle of the commerce guild in the face of the Empire. Or the struggles of the Jawa's against the Hutts.

Now - that said - do I think GW have done a good job with the second string Codices scheduling? No. No I do not. Too many have languished too long ( Orks, DE, Eldar ) while SM get release after release. These are all second players to SM, but as a matter of balance they should have been addressed by now - even with SM's getting more than them.

I'd say it's a matter of balance. I have no problem with SM getting 2-3 releases for every 1 other Forces get. When it reaches the 8-10 for every 1 - then I think they are going too far.

Fred

infernus31
12-02-2007, 15:43
Ive been in 40K since 1998, and it was only until last year that i finally put away my Blood Angels for good and stuck to playing with my Guard.

Prehaps our club is rare, but we have only 2 players who play marines reguarly (some other players have them, but as second armies used occasioanlly at by some) so we don't have such a prevalence of MEQ armies round here. Indeed the most popular armies would probably be Eldar and Chaos (but then these are different cults, khorne Nurgle and Tzeentch).


Ive not been to fussed that marines get new Codex/Models etc, as long as I can get access to decent nice looking models (and plastic troops) and since Guard got their book and finally affordable (ish) army Ive been hooked on them.

EmperorEternalXIX
12-02-2007, 16:08
I think a lot of you misunderstand my argument. I'm not saying the marines are hard struck or what have you--I'm just saying that there's plenty of stuff they DON'T get, too, but people seem to think I have everything in the game and that Xenos get nothing.

As for the Imperium not being "the good guys" I understand all that bit about the fascism and such and such. The key point I was trying to make is humanity is trying to fight for it's continued existence, and is beset on all sides by enemies; few of the other races have the same issue. The Tau are just expansionists, and many of the peoples they have come across have allied up; the Necrons are a problem for everyone but if you read Xenology they make it very clear that they have a particular interest in humanity's downfall; the Eldar are small in number but they don't have to deal with the full scope of enemies the imperium does, from what little I know about them; the orks will fight anything put in front of them but more often then not it's the imperium; the tyranids are the same way, essentially, but it was the marines who turned them back in the fluff...I don't think there's any in, say, the Eldar codex about them having to fight the tyranids (though there may be in the tyranid codex--I'm no expert just yet); the dark eldar aren't even on the radar in most of the fluff; and Chaos seem solely predisposed with destroying "followers of the false emperor" (though of course will fight whatever, wherever). So yeah, they are crazed religious zealots, but in the end they are fighting for the continued existence of the human race.

The artillery point is simple: The Whirlwind's pie plate is crap. It's bolter strength and when you add in the possibility of it missing it is only useful against low toughness massed-up stand and shoot armies, which basically means only the guard will have a hard time with it.

Monstrous creatures are also simple: they ignore armor saves. So all the bitching about my armor is irrelevant if you have a monstrous creature or a power weapon or the "pitiful" rending in CC. If you take the armor saves out of the question what do we have?

On the subject of ATSKNF: Yeah it's great. A lot of times, I have actually lost whole units though, because they could not escape close combat with ATSKNF. The reason is actually--believe it or not--that the high leadership of Battle Rites makes me pass my leadership tests very often. Were I to play against the SM, I would utilize this to my advantage and engage them with CC specialized troops as early as possible, knowing full well that they seldom escape and will either be incapacitated for a few turns or flat out be eventually destroyed.

Also it's worth noting that ATSKNF has caused me to lose my devastators for 2 out of 6 turns many times, because they DO have to retreat, and often end up blocked by line of sight because of it. On the rare occasion when I place them poorly, they have gone clear off the table--all things that would not ever happen if I were fearless.

The only reason the assault cannon is "accessible" is because you can put it on landspeeders on the cheap. But 1.) Those should be high priority targets and 2.) You should just walk away if a dude has an army full of those things because in the end he doesn't play SM because he likes the race, period. If someone DOESN'T have landspeeders you end up with a grand total of maybe 4 of them at the most. Even then you have to get super expensive squads of terminators or relatively easy to drop dreads to do it, and it is to the detriment of the rest of your list. If you use terrain well as my friends do, assault cannons will never even get a shot off on you.

I do not want the marines to have all the benefits of the xeno races, as alleged. The only point I was trying to make is that EVERY RACE gets some manner of powerful specialized rules to them.

The idea that ATSKNF, las/plas and power armor are "the best" is an opinion; the idea that ATSKNF, las/plas and power armor are "the only" is fiction.

I have not played many armies but from what I've seen there is plenty worth noting about all of my opponents that seems to make them clearly distinct, whereas the way the community acts, you would think that they have no special rules or decent gear at all. Conversely you make it sound as if the space marines have no negatives at all. I mean, I understand this whole bit about it being a "forgiving army" and all but people act like they're invincible just because they have a good armor save and no sweeping advances.

And what's all this talk about the "flexibility" of the armory? Yeah it's nice I can equip my IC's as I please but in the end they are still instakilled by any high strength AP2 weapon (because no one will pay 35 points for adamantine mantle), and though they hit mostly on 2's beyond that they are just another marine. A lot of monstrous creatures will break a marine IC in half no problem. So will a good amount of the pie plates I've seen. Squarely half of what's in that list is garbage no one uses anyway.

I should also take the time to say I'm not really taking any of this personally. I'd play SM even if they were the worst army in the game, because I like their backstory. So it's alright if you guys think I am wrong or just out of the loop because I'm relatively new; I'm not upset about people having different opinions. That's what forums are all about.

After all is said and done people are always going to feel an attachment to the imperium because they are human, and we as human beings tend to tread toward the familiar. But we all play for different reasons; I can see how a power gamer could abuse the list but I also see many others that are equally as abusable (Chaos jumps to mind...).

In the end I just think there is a double standard on the table. People hate the marines but no one minds the demonically suped up version of them, or the version that has better leadership, teleportation, and resurrection. Nope. because clearly the assault cannon is better than all of the upgrades in both the Chaos and Necron codices combined. Clearly. /sarcasm

The bottom line is that you win some, you lose some. If anything you all should be happy; without this alleged plethora of marine players (I've seen few myself) and the coddling of their wants, the game probably would have gone under a long time ago.

Captain Micha
12-02-2007, 16:21
actually I hate choas too... but thats because they are just rines with horns....

I hate them both equally. I tend to like on chaos more than the rines simply because at least they are different than the rines are. (all the gifts and stuff. and even a diff strat rating) to me -thats- customisation. Not this. (oh look we have more neophytes bt crap) or (hey look at our mass termies)..... its the same unit yes?......

I also like both equally. I just feel that the rines should be limited abit more than they are.

Getz
12-02-2007, 16:22
In actual fact I have gone on record several times complaining about the predominance of the MEQ - I have no particular axe to grind about Space Marine other than their (IMHO) "Golden-Child" status. I do have a big problem with the fact that the second most popular army in the game (CSM) is virtually identical to the most popular, and then Necrons simply add insult to injury...

I am fortunate that I have found a games club where MEQs are relatively uncommon, but at one point it seemed all there was to play out there was Marines and Chaos Marines.

Shinguuji
12-02-2007, 16:30
On a side note, has anyone blamed GW for being lazy? How difficult is it to produce a marine codex anyway? Just copy pictures, add a few new ones, paste, change a few rules, voila! new codex! A new marine codex is the equilavent of perhaps 2 or 3 WD worth of rule changes. Maybe they need the rest, and thus produce an easily producable material of their most profitable army?

On another side note, has anyone blamed themselves yet? Marines are getting nerfed(many agree so) in the next codex, and yet, tons whine 'another marine codex!!!!!'

jfrazell
12-02-2007, 16:39
None of this is meant in a hostile manner to you emperor



The key point I was trying to make is humanity is trying to fight for it's continued existence, and is beset on all sides by enemies; few of the other races have the same issue

I’ll grant you that. Of course it’s the Guard and Navy that do the real killin’




Monstrous creatures are also simple: they ignore armor saves. So all the bitching about my armor is irrelevant if you have a monstrous creature or a power weapon or the "pitiful" rending in CC. If you take the armor saves out of the question what do we have?

My toughness 3 5+ armor save guardsmen or traitors weep for you. Really, I’m not just saying that ;)



On the subject of ATSKNF: Yeah it's great. A lot of times, I have actually lost whole units though, because they could not escape close combat with ATSKNF. The reason is actually--believe it or not--that the high leadership of Battle Rites makes me pass my leadership tests very often.


ATSKNF is substantially better than fearless(that’s one fo the cries about the new DA codex-ahhh we’re only fearless now!)




And what's all this talk about the "flexibility" of the armory? Yeah it's nice I can equip my IC's as I please but in the end they are still instakilled by any high strength AP2 weapon (because no one will pay 35 points for adamantine mantle), and though they hit mostly on 2's beyond that they are just another marine. A lot of monstrous creatures will break a marine IC in half no problem. So will a good amount of the pie plates I've seen. Squarely half of what's in that list is garbage no one uses anyway.


You have the ability to make one of the most shooty lists in the game. You have the ability to make one of the most CC lists in the game. With drop pod you can do things no other list can and avoid shooting.




In the end I just think there is a double standard on the table. People hate the marines but no one minds the demonically suped up version of them, or the version that has better leadership, teleportation, and resurrection. Nope. because clearly the assault cannon is better than all of the upgrades in both the Chaos and Necron codices combined. Clearly. /sarcasm

I agree there’s not that much difference between Chaos MEQs and marine MEQS. Its more of a spiky or non-spikey marine issue. Having said that marines have advantages that they don’t have to pay for ATSKNF, pods, A cannon, furious charge and the death company in the BA’s. While you can build a similar chaos force (and better if you do it right) chaos does have to pay for these items. Having said that I’ll grant you it’s a toss up between the two.

Of course to us non MEQ players, you all look alike to us ;)

azimaith
12-02-2007, 16:47
As for the Imperium not being "the good guys" I understand all that bit about the fascism and such and such. The key point I was trying to make is humanity is trying to fight for it's continued existence, and is beset on all sides by enemies; few of the other races have the same issue.

The Eldar are, but they just run away when it comes to serious resistance, the Tau are too, but they're small fries. They just don't get all the press that Marines and the Imperium get.

Besides, they don't just fight for their continued existence, they fight for the extermination of all Xenos and all heretics. You think if the Orkz, necrons, and tyranids said "Oh we're just going to stay in this little section of the galaxy and stay out of your and each other's way." The Imperiums just going to say: "Sure Ok!, live and let live!"
Hah! They'd go right out there on one of their blind crusades to wreak carnage upon them on the largest scale they could gather. You act as if the Imperium is just defending itself rather than actively going around and kicking everyone out of the sandbox known as the galaxy because "Its their sandbox and everyone else should just die." The Imperium is an outwardly aggressive orginization that wants nothing less than the total annihilation of non-human sentient life in the galaxy for purposes of purity. They'd work on a scale that made the Holocaust look like summer camp, they are *that* bad.



.I don't think there's any in, say, the Eldar codex about them having to fight the tyranids (though there may be in the tyranid codex--I'm no expert just yet);

Craftworld Inyaden was attacked and more or less destroyed by the Tyranids, oddly enough instead of just escaping it stayed and gave the Imperium enough time recover from the initial tyranid attack. Considering Eldar foresight its funny how these "Evil nasty monstrous eldar xenos bastards" would give a flying rats ass what happens to the Imperium and just zip away like they always do. Funny that.



the dark eldar aren't even on the radar in most of the fluff; and Chaos seem solely predisposed with destroying "followers of the false emperor" (though of course will fight whatever, wherever). So yeah, they are crazed religious zealots, but in the end they are fighting for the continued existence of the human race.

And the death of all other unclean and unpure races (as in everyone thats not them.)



The artillery point is simple: The Whirlwind's pie plate is crap. It's bolter strength and when you add in the possibility of it missing it is only useful against low toughness massed-up stand and shoot armies, which basically means only the guard will have a hard time with it.

Wow really?! Why does that make it useless if marines aren't getting all the toys and aren't so completely overrepresented? The fact that you dismiss the whirlwind which is great against: Eldar, Tau, Tyranids, Orkz, Guard, Dark Eldar, and many other large portions of forces such as inquisitorial storm troopers in DH armies as crap, because it can "miss" (Like every other weapon in the game) is an blatant sign that of the problem of marines.



Monstrous creatures are also simple: they ignore armor saves. So all the bitching about my armor is irrelevant if you have a monstrous creature or a power weapon or the "pitiful" rending in CC. If you take the armor saves out of the question what do we have?

I wasn't aware Eldar, Necrons, and Tyranids were 100% monstrous creatures, all of which could get into assault easily. None of these races can go 100% monstrous, not even tyranids but every marine squad on the board can have a power weapon if they want it.



On the subject of ATSKNF: Yeah it's great. A lot of times, I have actually lost whole units though, because they could not escape close combat with ATSKNF.
Somehow your playing this off as a *disadvantage*? Marines never get run down, they rally automatically before the next turn allowing them to shoot even after falling back the previous turn. Oh no, how terrible you never get the joy of 180 points of necron warriors being totally thrashed and unable to ever come back because you roll boxcars on your dice and they all get run down. How terrible for you.



Also it's worth noting that ATSKNF has caused me to lose my devastators for 2 out of 6 turns many times, because they DO have to retreat, and often end up blocked by line of sight because of it. On the rare occasion when I place them poorly, they have gone clear off the table--all things that would not ever happen if I were fearless.

Yes, its terrible that you have to deal with some issues that essentially every single other army must deal with because your marines. We get it, ATSKNF isn't like drinking liquid unicorn giggles, but its an assload better than nearly any other leadership affecting ability in nearly every situation.



The only reason the assault cannon is "accessible" is because you can put it on landspeeders on the cheap. But 1.) Those should be high priority targets and 2.) You should just walk away if a dude has an army full of those things because in the end he doesn't play SM because he likes the race, period.

I wasn't aware you are able to telepathically project yourself into all Asscannon marine players minds to tell them they don't like marines. So we should just walk away from people because they're playing marines with the assault cannon? Send mixed messages much?



If someone DOESN'T have landspeeders you end up with a grand total of maybe 4 of them at the most. Even then you have to get super expensive squads of terminators or relatively easy to drop dreads to do it, and it is to the detriment of the rest of your list. If you use terrain well as my friends do, assault cannons will never even get a shot off on you.

Never get a shot off? Sure, if you have super magical uber fast units and the enemy forgets to ever move.



I do not want the marines to have all the benefits of the xeno races, as alleged. The only point I was trying to make is that EVERY RACE gets some manner of powerful specialized rules to them.

But who gets a whole bunch of them all piled together. Marines.




And what's all this talk about the "flexibility" of the armory? Yeah it's nice I can equip my IC's as I please but in the end they are still instakilled by any high strength AP2 weapon (because no one will pay 35 points for adamantine mantle), and though they hit mostly on 2's beyond that they are just another marine. A lot of monstrous creatures will break a marine IC in half no problem. So will a good amount of the pie plates I've seen. Squarely half of what's in that list is garbage no one uses anyway.

Unlike what armies? Orkz? Necrons? Eldar, Guard, we all suffer the same problem of being gutted by high strength weapons save for tyranids, and tyranids only have a single Independent character who must take a retinue so none of them get any passes on getting shot at no matter whose around them. A lot of monstrous creatures will break any IC you act as if only marines suffer by getting clubbed by a giant space mantis or that marines are the only ones who suffer having basilisk rounds dropped on them. These are not disadvantages if all sides *must* deal with them.



In the end I just think there is a double standard on the table. People hate the marines but no one minds the demonically suped up version of them, or the version that has better leadership, teleportation, and resurrection. Nope. because clearly the assault cannon is better than all of the upgrades in both the Chaos and Necron codices combined. Clearly. /sarcasm

Actually most people *dislike* chaos even more. In a poll I made a while back on whose army is most overpowered chaos was a good deal ahead of all the others and that was with 100+ votes. As for necrons, when necrons start carrying around plasmaguns then you can start complaining about them. The lack of squad heavy weapons means that necrons will not outshoot marines pound for pound, only outlast them.



The bottom line is that you win some, you lose some. If anything you all should be happy; without this alleged plethora of marine players (I've seen few myself) and the coddling of their wants, the game probably would have gone under a long time ago.
Or have actually had a diverse selection of well supported codex's. *shudders*. Well i'm sure there hard at work on codex's red, white, and Mauve space marines now.

Kriegsherr
12-02-2007, 17:21
The Eldar are, but they just run away when it comes to serious resistance, the Tau are too, but they're small fries. They just don't get all the press that Marines and the Imperium get.


Ehrm... if the Eldar or Tau are really good guys is also debattable, but granted, there is more white in their grey than in the imperial grey :p

But something has to be pretty clear to anyone. True, the Imperium tries to survive. But: Is violence really the only way? Do humanity need fascism to survive. Aren't there other ways to keep the xenos back?

Who has started the war? The Imperium or the Xenos? Noone knows.

True, in this fictional universe there are creatures that were born without a choice, but the only real aggressors I see there are the Necs (who are nothing more than slaves to gigantic space vampires that care about something as small as human as much as we care about an ant), and the nids (who are just oversized versions of killerbees... are they evil because they were "born pissed of"?). Every other threat can be seen to be homemade to some extent. Tau just want some space to live in (well, they might become epidemic quite fast, but man, they got rights :p), the eldar just want to survive too (okay, so they are egocentric, arrogant bastards that don't care about xenos lives... but else they're good chaps ;)), the orks just wanna have fun (give them a good part of the galaxy as their wardrome were they can shoot and kill each other day and night, give them the biggest cartdrive in the galaxy and enough junk to build a gargant bigger than a planet and they might be amused for an hour :)), and chaos.... well, there maybe would be no chaos marines and no other traitors if the Imperials would treat their citizen right. But If I would have the choice between mutated anarchists and bio-mechanically butchered fascists, I don't know what I would choose. its pretty 50-50. So a better scociety would lead to less attraction to the dark side.

Of course, there are the ones that say beeing too soft is more dangerous than beeing to fascist, but I say ********. Decadence might be a severe problem, but revolutions and rebellion are also.

So as always, its a question on where you stand. From a modern 21th century point of view, the imperial "way of survival" has to be clearly called wrong. Its inhuman, its fascist, its not worth the fight anymore (I wouldn't want to live that way).
Maybe it is the only way in 409th century to ensure the survival of the human culture. But its a quite ugly parody of a human civilazation anyway.

Getz
12-02-2007, 18:04
We get it, ATSKNF isn't like drinking liquid unicorn giggles, but its an assload better than nearly any other leadership affecting ability in nearly every situation.

Lol! :D azimaith wins the thread!

TheBlueGrassGamer
12-02-2007, 18:06
Greetings,


And yet this worked with the Chaos codex. Mind you, that codex can be a *bib* to use and some of the Legions are less than balanced. But they're all there. Why can't Codex Space Marine cover all 1. Founding legions in the same way?

Okay, I'll bite.

I take it you've wondered over to the News and Rumors section of the forums, and seen the thread entitled "Codex: Chaos"? Barring the two sticky threads, it is (as the time of this posting) the third thread down from the top. It appears that GW is redoing the CSM codex, and in fact may be splitting it into multiple codex books -- the rumors point from as many as five to as few as two. Why is GW doing this? Because the CSM codex is such a pain to use and some of the Legions are less than balanced.

And seriously, what makes you think a SM Codex that tries to cover all of the current SM Chapters won't run head on into the same problems that the CSM codex have? A SM codex would have to find a way to cover the Blood Angels' Black Rage and the Black Templars' mixed Crusader squads. The SM Codex would have the same twisting, turning paths that the Legion specific sections of the CSM Codex does. They'd also try and stick to the fluff for the BAs, DAs, BTs, and SWs as well -- which could lead to some of the SM Chapters becoming as unbalanced as some of the Traitor Legions can be using the CSM Codex.

And then there would be cries of odor vaguely reminiscent of Vieux Boulogne drifting from the new shiny SM Codex that covers every chapter known. Why? Because some of the SM Chapters that can be built with the new codex were/are just as unbalanced certain Traitor Legion builds.

GW also finds out that they have alienated a vast majority of the DA, BA, and SW players who have gotten used to their having their own Chapter-specific army books since 2nd Edition. Those DA, BA, SW, and BT players that have toughed it out will raise a hue and cry against the fact that GW didn't quite capture the feel of their army just right -- and possibly, they will be rather angry that their chosen Chapter is now considered somewhere on par with Vieux Boulogne in terms of cheesiness.

And where would we be in the next edition of Warhammer 40K comes? Right back to where we are now. One army book to cover the Codex chapters, and four army books for the non-Codex Chapters. Because GW caved to the pressure being applied by the players/hobbist crying out "SMs are too powerful -- fix them NOW" and "Bring my chapter back."

And lo, time will go on peaceably. Until once again the 'Net is filled with threads decrying the attention that the SMs as a whole are receiving too much time because each of the non-Codex Chapters and the main SM line needs to be supported with plastic troops, Chapter-specific grubbings, etc. And then someone brings the idea of "Why don't they just put all the Marines in one codex?"

Thanks,
Bluegrass

P.S. -- Allow me to assure any Inquisitional authorities out there that I am in no way a member of a cult devoted to the Master Manipulator and Changer of Ways......

EmperorEternalXIX
12-02-2007, 18:18
Unlike what armies? Orkz? Necrons? Eldar, Guard, we all suffer the same problem of being gutted by high strength weapons save for tyranids, and tyranids only have a single Independent character who must take a retinue so none of them get any passes on getting shot at no matter whose around them. A lot of monstrous creatures will break any IC you act as if only marines suffer by getting clubbed by a giant space mantis or that marines are the only ones who suffer having basilisk rounds dropped on them. These are not disadvantages if all sides *must* deal with them. I think the point was missed. All I was saying is that we're not the invincible monsters we're made out to be. But again--no doubt the community will not find them happy until they are statlined to GEQ and given laspistols only at 30 points each. Either way my point was simple: they aren't overpowered.

Yeah, I said it. Space marines are not overpowered.

Bottom line, know your enemy. To argue that ATSKNF is overpowered while ignoring things like Without Number, Feel No Pain, We'll Be Back, and all that lot is rather one-sided, don't you think?

And yes, I do think that if someone shows up with 9 landspeeders you should tell him to screw. If all it's going to do is end up with you coming over to the forums and complaining about assault cannons then yeah, I'd rather you just packed up your xenos and went to another table.

People leave out so many factors. Point costs, numbers, the FoC...you guys act like the whole game is a book and dice and there's no terrain, no strategy, no line of sight, no opportunity to exploit an enemy's weakness, no objectives. There's a lot more to the game and I have seen firsthand and secondhand that even the most adept space marine player can be led astray or annihilated when the enemy faces him correctly.

At the end of every game I play a large part of my army is reduced to non-scoring status, if not outright destroyed. I don't understand how you all think I'm so unstoppable powerful and unfair if I am allegedly playing such a "forgiving" newbie army. If I'm strategizing actively and using cover, vying for primary targets and the objective, and yet still see much of my army wounded and dead each game...well I guess it can't be that forgiving, can it? Yeah I know, I can already hear the arguments that I probably did something wrong, I don't know how to play the game, etc etc...but I think I DO know how to play the game a little better than a total newb at the very least. And if this army is so forgiving and overpowered to total newbs, then why is it not seeming more invincible in my hands?

Oh, it must be because I only have one assault cannon...right? /sarcasm

scrubout
12-02-2007, 18:25
Monstrous creatures are also simple: they ignore armor saves. So all the bitching about my armor is irrelevant if you have a monstrous creature or a power weapon or the "pitiful" rending in CC. If you take the armor saves out of the question what do we have?

Damn! Monstrous creatures ignore even my carapace armoured 4+ save guardsmen!? What a waste of a doctrine...:rolleyes: :p

I think we get the point that the dreaded xenos and enemies of the Imperium have things that the Space Marines don't, however, the sheer average-ness of Space Marine armies is what makes a challenging opponent. If you were to go to a competition, would you take your average all-rounder army, or your one that excels with killing horde armies? The answer is obvious and loaded...haha. This is the forgiving aspect of Space Marines that is sellable to newcomers. Why would you play a game to get your bum consistently whipped?

I feel GW does advertise marines too much, and all the different space marine codexes are annoying, I'd much rather my opponents get their updated Orkses and Dark Eldar codexs before seeing another variant of spcae marines...Black Templar was a really, really, unappealing and not interesting release.

While we are discussing GW business practices, might I recall a book by a game designer I own. This author discusses the business practices of different companies, for GW it has the following more or less; The purpose of GW business philosophy is to get kids when their young (prepubescent males mostly) and get them or their parents to spend hard-earned cash on models, but as the 'boys' grow up they start to want girls (!) and cars, and other such things, which means a hobby will quickly become non-supported and dropped completely in preference of other such wants. So, get 'em while their young, pump 'em full of marine adverts, buy battle of macragge, buy a marine battleforce, paints, hobby supplies, drop it when they realize they have to paint it and don't have the patience and see a cute girl walk by!

I know this sounds negative, and it is, but I'm just relaying a game designer's opinion of the business...take it as you will. To me it sounds reasonable, a business IS a business after all.

Fixing up/clarifying rules is cool, so I don't have too much room to complain...but I thought the purpose of traits was a way for GW to stop making alternate codexes for armies, all the customization you'd ever need is right there! (And in consequence pay more attention to other armies in full rather than producing supplements for variants!)

Come to think of it, where's my Codex Vostroyans? :wtf:

-peace out
scrubout:skull:

Captain Micha
12-02-2007, 18:26
exactly why lol.

I can live with the rines. minus that one weapon. even the dreaded las plas. Meh. I fear plas plas more to be honest lol

-that- gun though... I dunno. I just really do not see how they get to have one gun that does literally everything well. No its not a dedicated At.. nor is it true meq killing like the old starcannon... No its not the best most awesome horde killer. but it does all of these really really well for a very small price of admission. -thats- my problem with the rines in a nut shell. Yes the favoured son thing sucks. but I would love on an army abit more than others if I owned gw too... You'd be seeing new guard minis every 8 months. guaranteed if I called the shots.

New codexs no... that hurts the loyal somehow ork players.. the some how still liking to play de players. and anyone else that needs a sore update

ashc
12-02-2007, 18:43
Well, I did not intend for this thread to turn into another 'marines are overpowered' thread; This is certainly not my own opinion of them, I consider the list abuseable and unfluffy if abused certainly (when you start seeing far too many 6-man lasplas squads in every marine army you see backed up with plethoras of assaultcannons it does start to grate on you) but playing a balanced marine army isn't a crime, is it? :confused: As I say all the time when it comes to people abusing army lists and whether things are overpowered, 'everything is fine in moderation'; i.e. i see no problem with a chaos army having a defiler and a couple of obliterators but it is really aggrevating to fight a 4-pieplate-9-obliterator-Iron-Warriors-army-of-doom'. For the same reason I see no problem seeing a space marine army with a dreadnought and a landspeeder with an assault cannon each; Its annoying when you fight a player who has spammed the list with as many assault cannons as they can cram in; whether its effective or not, it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

If people wish to discuss marines overpowerment further then please move it to a seperate thread.

Do people think that marine oversaturation in an area/gaming group has a detrimental effect on that group? does it annoy you when all you ever seem to fight are marines, and are you also a marine player? do you think people should strive to *not* play space marines if others in their group already play alot of marine or chaos marine armies?

Ash

Captain Micha
12-02-2007, 18:47
the two are tied together. anyway. I kinda feel that way. On the other hand though, play what you like to play. If something intrests you go for it. if that be orks as your first army so be it. Dont go marine just cause everyone says "they are the noobs army" I went Tau because of battlefleet gothic. And then I saw my first necrons and went. "oh hells yes"

But no, to answer your question, I do not feel the other races should play second or 4th fiddle to the rines.

ashc
12-02-2007, 18:48
But no, to answer your question, I do not feel the other races should play second or 4th fiddle to the rines.

Ah but my original question was not whether they *should*; it is whether they already *do* ;)

Ash

Captain Micha
12-02-2007, 18:53
True... I think they do. because gw is too lazy simply put. They don't want to take risks anymore and it shows everytime we see a new codex that is not rine *risk* and then followed up by a 'sure fire hit' of a new rine dex. They have been spot on with the codexes that are 'risks' so far and have sold really well as a result... the rine dexes coming out in the mean time seems abit too much though. simply because it delays development time significantly. Their staff is too small for that kind of game playing. and they are starting to see the results even with their favoured army the rines...

hence the redux that may be coming out

I do not like the policy simply put

scrubout
12-02-2007, 19:04
I didn't mean to sound like a hater if I did in my post ashc, I was just making my observations of the GW business practice regarding marines. They sell, put out codexes for variants of the marines because the green ones are teh roxxor!!1! kinda thing, but the black ones are cool too, etc. Granted, anything can be sold, if you advertise it right.

I don't like how the developers are spending time on mildly different marine codexes when, as stated in my previous long-winded post, I thought that was the purpose of traits, doctrines, etc.

-peace out
scrubout:skull:

ashc
12-02-2007, 19:08
That's no problem Scrubout; I didn't think you sounded like a hater to be honest; the GW business practice is another much talked about topic over in 'Other GW Discussion' and I am unfortunately fully aware of the Kiddie Cash-chasing mentality held by the company at the moment; an attitude I am hoping we will see change after the rather poor profit margins reported this past year.

But again the topic is being diverted, I am hoping to receive some replies to my most recent posted question on marine-centricity. :)

Ash

EmperorEternalXIX
12-02-2007, 19:14
Despite my stance on whether the space marines are overpowered or not, I do feel that other xeno codicies are in dire need of updating. I mean, how long can it take to make a codex, anyway? The Orks are so cool and weird it practically writes itself. The things they can do with looted vehicles and ork units seem nigh limitless. Yet there they sit with that awful, ancient codex.

If they updated the orks I would probably take them as a second army for sure.

scrubout
12-02-2007, 19:17
Argh, forgot to reply to that in my last post.

I believe marine-centricity is detrimental to a group. Difference in opponents is what makes this game more fun, I don't want to play against marines all the time and I'm sure neither do my opponents.

I play Guard. My game group has a variety of armies, even a highly competitive feral ork army that is just plain WRONG to go against. Most of my gaming group are avid tournament players too, with 2 turn games being the norm when playing tournament style...a few play marines, but in the competitions you will see Eldar, Imperial Guard armored company (not mine), etc.

It's the spice of life if you catch my drift. Marines against marines is boooring to look at.

I feel players should be encouraged to try different armies, Marines can suit anyone's playing style, the real key is finding an army that favors your preferred play style.

-peace out
scrubout:skull:

f2k
12-02-2007, 20:02
I take it you've wondered over to the News and Rumors section of the forums, and seen the thread entitled "Codex: Chaos"? Barring the two sticky threads, it is (as the time of this posting) the third thread down from the top. It appears that GW is redoing the CSM codex, and in fact may be splitting it into multiple codex books -- the rumors point from as many as five to as few as two. Why is GW doing this? Because the CSM codex is such a pain to use and some of the Legions are less than balanced.

And seriously, what makes you think a SM Codex that tries to cover all of the current SM Chapters won't run head on into the same problems that the CSM codex have? A SM codex would have to find a way to cover the Blood Angels' Black Rage and the Black Templars' mixed Crusader squads. The SM Codex would have the same twisting, turning paths that the Legion specific sections of the CSM Codex does. They'd also try and stick to the Fluff for the BAs, DAs, BTs, and SWs as well -- which could lead to some of the SM Chapters becoming as unbalanced as some of the Traitor Legions can be using the CSM Codex.




Perhaps it's just me being cynical, but I don't believe that splitting the Chaos Codex is just about the rules being difficult to write. It's just as much about money. More books = more money.

You do have a point about the balance and lack of fluff. And about the Chaos Codex not exactly being easy to use. And yes, this could also happen with a unified Codex Marines.
But consider this: they can make Codex Marines, Black Marines, Green Marines, Gray Marines, and Red Marines – and each of these works on their own. So why can’t they just compile this into a big Codex Marines of all Colours and be done with it?

machine_recovered_meat
12-02-2007, 20:07
But consider this: they can make Codex Marines, Black Marines, Green Marines, Gray Marines, and Red Marines – and each of these works on their own. So why can’t they just compile this into a big Codex Marines of all Colours and be done with it?
Codex:Rainbow Warriors :D

I'm cynical, I agree about the financial factor.

junglesnake
12-02-2007, 20:43
Perhaps it's just me being cynical, but I don't believe that splitting the Chaos Codex is just about the rules being difficult to write. It's just as much about money. More books = more money.

You do have a point about the balance and lack of fluff. And about the Chaos Codex not exactly being easy to use. And yes, this could also happen with a unified Codex Marines.
But consider this: they can make Codex Marines, Black Marines, Green Marines, Gray Marines, and Red Marines – and each of these works on their own. So why can’t they just compile this into a big Codex Marines of all Colours and be done with it?

I disagree. Towards the end of 2nd ed and through 3rd ed I would agree and as you have seen they made very small add on codexs which required you to buy the main codex as well. Cleverly this meant that you had to pay £17 for two codex one of which you were to use only as a reference.

In 2nd ed a Dark Angel/Blood Angel commander had to pay around the same amount of money for half a books use.

Codex Dark Angels has displayed that their intention is to give you an independent rule book for the chapter of your choice and the fluff to go with. I may hasten to add that this time they have included fluff from previous incarnations so that the history is not eradicated.

The suggestion of one codex for all of the chapters is extreme, I don't want Dark Angels to get two pages of fluff and have a book with 20+ other chapters worth of fluff and characters that I am never going to use. I would rather I was just buying the 10 or so pages I would need.

As far as chaos goes they have tried one book, they have tried a boxed rule set and so far as I am concerned as above, a Nurgle collector would probably want a book dedicated to Nurgle rather than having to buy a book equaly divided up into Nurgle, Slaneesh, Tzeeentch, Khorne etc.

I think you can expect to see more depth in the fluff and background of each army as a result and as someone else on here has raised - a return to the story telling that used to dictate the ideas of the game and how an army was to be played at the same time as making each army unique in its own way.

Personaly I would like to see cultists as a troop choice for chaos forces, maybe allowing one unit to access a special ability allowing it to infiltrate. I think that cultists play a larger part in the way Chaos works than is currently depicted in the modern chaos fluff.

So in essence I would go along with writing a combined chaos book for all of the armies would indeed be difficult. You would have to balance out how many pages each one got and also try to keep it brief as not to put off any player that only requires one list.

In my view it would be a bit like compiling three car manuals into one and selling it at the combined cost. EG a ford fiesta, focus and transit van. What use would the other two be to the one you have? None.

Its customer service as well as thinking economically. I was bitterly disapointed with the 3rd ed DA codex. It failed by a long shot. The figures and anticipation of waiting for a more troop orientated game was devestated when the fluff was stripped out and all that I was left with was a book that had the rules for a couple of special characters (which as stated in a previous post I rarely use) and the rules to a couple of other units which had additional rules. Otherwise I was still predominantly using the actual SM Codex.

Should they continue on this trend I would be more than happy. If anything the biggest money making argument would be that this way there is nothing stopping them releasing more specific codexes. In other words giving them more freedom to release more previously un codexed chapters or armies.

I wouldnt mind seeing this, it means that chaos can finaly have individual books dedicated to the followers of each god. And lets face it, each god is very different and it is not unusual for them to fight each other!

TheBlueGrassGamer
12-02-2007, 20:53
Greetings,


But consider this: they can make Codex Marines, Black Marines, Green Marines, Gray Marines, and Red Marines – and each of these works on their own. So why can’t they just compile this into a big Codex Marines of all Colours and be done with it?

Objection, your honor! Asked and answered!


It's just as much about money. More books = more money.

Which is, of course, why GW will continue to support the BAs, DAs, SWs, and BTs from now until they go out of business. When a shiny new codex is released for one of the color-coded marines, it will of course be shiny and new -- which will attract either noob players or more experinced players seeking a new army. Which means some of the noobs and more experienced players will buy the codex.....

Which means more sales of SW Blood Claws, DA Veterans, BT Crusader spures, and BA Furioso Dreadnoughts. Heck, some SW players might decided they want to chuck their hybrid Long Fangs in exchange for nifty new plastic ones, which means GW will also sell more of the SW spure along with the new Devastator boxes....

If they were to combine the various Marine army books, GW also knows they'd alienate a large portion of the SW, DA, BT, and BA players out there. Which means that GW would loose money as the slighted players give up collecting and gaming with their chosen armies -- perhaps even leaving the 40K hobby all together. GW knows that if that happens, it could take a good while to build up fan support for the SWs, DAs, BTs, and BAs. Meaning they know that sales of Chapter specific vehicles and spures will fall off too, costing them money. Which will hurt their profit.

Thanks,
Bluegrass

jfrazell
12-02-2007, 20:56
The problem though, is that if you really make four or five chaos codexes, that you will have the same reaction as non-marine players have to marines. the amount of overload is way too high. Instead of meh, another marine codex, we would have meh another chaos codex. At that point you'll get a non-MEQ codex, what every three years or so? No thanks.

TheBlueGrassGamer
12-02-2007, 21:15
Greetings,


The problem though, is that if you really make four or five chaos codexes, that you will have the same reaction as non-marine players have to marines. the amount of overload is way too high. Instead of meh, another marine codex, we would have meh another chaos codex. At that point you'll get a non-MEQ codex, what every three years or so? No thanks.

And yet, GW is doing this keep the fan bases of specific Chapters/Legions/Chaos entities happy. Because if they don't, they'd see players bailing out faster than rats could leave a sinking ship.

A good way to think of it is the Cola Wars from not to long ago, when Coke changed the flavoring to taste more like Pepsi (or was it the other way around). I remember watching a documentary on the Cola Wars that said the Coca-Cola Company had psychologist listening in on the phone lines at their main office, and people were responding to the change in Coke's formula in dramatic ways. I believe the analogy was that some of the callers, who had never drank a Coke before, sounded liked someone had killed their mother...

Translate that over to 40K, where you have what amounts to brand loyalty to a specific Chapter/Legion/Chaos entity. Especially with the DA, BA, and SW players who have had their own army books since 2nd Edition are ferociously loyal to their armies......

It is time to face the fact that GW is a company, and to make money they have to keep their various fan bases for their many armies happy. GW responds to money. True, it may take a while get around to a xenos codex -- but (and I could be wretchedly wrong here) some xenos players stopped buying miniatures and the like because they are old and out dated.

What do you think is going to happen when the xenos army books and miniatures get updated? Sales in that army will be higher, as the newest shiny and new army gets new adherents and grumpy veterans seeking to update the models and rules for their much beloved army.

Thanks,
Bluegrass

jfrazell
12-02-2007, 21:18
Greetings,

It is time to face the fact that GW is a company, and to make money they have to keep their various fan bases for their many armies happy. GW responds to money. True, it may take a while get around to a xenos codex -- but (and I could be wretchedly wrong here) some xenos players stopped buying miniatures and the like because they are old and out dated.



Exactly. GW is a business. By focusing on one or two groups there's no reason for players who don't play those lists to buy anything. You lose client sales by focusing on those specific groups.

TheBlueGrassGamer
12-02-2007, 21:30
Greetings,


Exactly. GW is a business. By focusing on one or two groups there's no reason for players who don't play those lists to buy anything.

Until the new codex comes out. :angel:


You lose client sales by focusing on those specific groups.

Which could also happen if you do away with the army books for the four non-Codex SM Chapters....

Ultamately, GW has placed itself in a position where it cannot win when it comes to the fan bases of all of the armies it supports. GW has to keep the loyal fan bases for every xenos race/SM Chapter/Chaos entity/Imperial Servant happy to make money. To do that they have to devote time and resources to publishing (and in some cases, correcting) army books, miniatures, etc.

Which will cause the other armies to be pushed back in development while the new/re-released army is hyped and selling. GW knows that lavishing more time on one army could hurt other armies, but they've got to do it to keep the fan bases happy. On the other hand, each time a new army gets redone or comes out -- they do make money. From noob players choosing that army as their very own, to grump vets updating their collection.

And all the while, GW laughs all the way to the bank....

I really can't say any more in this thread, since I'm near the point where most of my post will start sounding like a hackneyed copy and paste job.

Thanks,
Bluegrass

swordwind
12-02-2007, 21:56
If there is one thing I ahve picked up from this thread it is that from now on I must always refer to the Guard as the "Imperial Whipping Boys"

jfrazell
12-02-2007, 22:01
Ultamately, GW has placed itself in a position where it cannot win when it comes to the fan bases of all of the armies it supports. GW has to keep the loyal fan bases for every xenos race/SM Chapter/Chaos entity/Imperial Servant happy to make money. To do that they have to devote time and resources to publishing (and in some cases, correcting) army books, miniatures, etc.


The argument doesn’t hold though, as by increasing the number of chaos books by such an absurd amount, you are increasing the difficulty. Again I see one target segment being served I do not see Orks, DE, and to a lesser extent Guard and Necrons being served, not to mention completely new lists. If I play one of these lists, why would I buy anything?

Note: I do not believe there hs ever been anything on that order of Chaos books, and I believe this rumor of five books is an incorrect one. I could see two books (if you include non-MEQs) but nothing further. But then again I've been wrong before.



Careful swordwind - those imperial whipping boys have friends (looks over in armored company's direction). Hell hath no fury like a Vanquisher scorned.

;)

Karanthir
12-02-2007, 22:55
First off I would just like to make it clear that I do not play often, so the following views should be treated as opinions rather than what I take to be fact.

I personally feel that each player should play an army they like, and shouldn't be pushed into (or away from) an army just because other people like or dislike it. I don't think anyone here would disagree with that.

Now if, say 80-90% of noobs happen to like marines then they should play marines, surely, and there must be a reason why they are drawn to marines over the other armies. Some have put this down to over-advertising on the part of GW, but I honestly think it must be more than this.

Some in this thread have pointed to the 'coolness' factor of marines, and I think this is definitely important. They are superhuman defenders of mankind, something most people will find appealling on some level. Yes the Guard are the 'true' defenders of humanity, but to an outsider coming into the hobby they could just be any old humans (no offence to any Guard players, I personally think they're pretty damn cool). As for the whole argument about Marines not being 'good guys' (I think someone else already pointed this out); by our standards, no they aren't 'good guys', they are genocidal fascists, but that's a good way to go in the 41st Millenium. Eldar, genocidal fascists, Tau genocidal fascists, Necrons Orkz and Nids, not genocidal fascists, but certainly not the nicest groups in the universe. It's all a matter of perspective.

I think when it comes to the potential detriment of a group due to too many marines it depends on the group. A group is only as good as its members after all. If you have a group where there are many marine players outnumbering a few non-marine players then things could be problematic, but then all the non-marines need to do is tool up to take down 3+ armour saves :p . On the other hand having, say, three marine players, an eldar player, a guard player, and an ork player (for example), I don't think that kind of ratio would cause too much of a problem.

As for the original question of other armies playing second fiddle to marines. Yes they do, it's just the way things are. Chaos marines are becoming more popular than marines I think, and Tau are certainly growing in numbers. But Marines will continue to be the main army pushed by GW. The problem raised about potentially putting all marine chapters in one codex I consider to be fairly moot. I a SW player (for example) has been playing their army with their own specific rules and codex since 2nd ed why should they suddenly be lumped into a single codex with other specific armies any more than lumping eldar in with orkz? Admittedly SW are the most unique of the marine varients, but still, if we're going on these lines why not cut down the codexes completely and have Codex Imperium, Codex Eldar (for all varieties), Codex Chaos (ok, probably would be an improvement on Codex Chaos Space Marines :rolleyes: ), and Codex Horde Xenos armies?

OK, this is getting a bit rantish now, so I'm going to stop

TheBlueGrassGamer
12-02-2007, 23:27
Greetings,


The argument doesn’t hold though, as by increasing the number of chaos books by such an absurd amount, you are increasing the difficulty.

I apologize, but I feel the need to clarify something. I am not arguing in favor of expanding the number of books that the CSMs get in the rewrite to five. If GW is indeed sticking to a new Fantasy-like formating for the army books, I can see the CSMs getting at least two books that fit together in some way-- like Fantasy's Hordes of Chaos and Beast of Chaos army books.

What I have been trying to say (perhaps not well) is that GW, above all, has keep fifteen distinctive fan bases happy. How do they do this? By producing army books, miniatures, war machines, grubbings, and like for each of their fifteen armies. They have to keep each fan base happy, or else they risk loosing money as players abandon their armies and the 40K hobby.

I do agree, however, that the main reason that the various Marine flavors tend to get the lion's share of attention is because they have the lion's share of the fan base. Which is why they are dotted on by those in charge of 40K at GW. I personally do not think that any army should be favored above any other. That said, I also don't think combining all of the color-coded Marines and their 'nilla brethren is going to fix anything.

Thanks,
Bluegrass

junglesnake
12-02-2007, 23:33
"The problem though, is that if you really make four or five chaos codexes, that you will have the same reaction as non-marine players have to marines. the amount of overload is way too high. Instead of meh, another marine codex, we would have meh another chaos codex. At that point you'll get a non-MEQ codex, what every three years or so? No thanks."

I don't see where the real problem is! GW release plenty of army books a year and even if they do just one marine book, which is the case more or less so far, they still have plenty of time for other releases.

The problem here is that people are saying that you already have one marine army why have another? And essentially this is where the problem lies. People have to remove themselves and remember that even though it comes from the same story line and has linked fluff each space marine chapter with its own book plays like a completely different army.

You have to remove yourself from the anti marine mist! They may look like a marine, smell like a marine and to you nids and orks even taste like a marine but there are differences.

I can assure you playing an Ultramarines army will be completely different to playing a DA army in the same way that playing an Ultramarines army would be different to playing a chaos or nid army just that the differences are not as extreme.

"Exactly. GW is a business. By focusing on one or two groups there's no reason for players who don't play those lists to buy anything. You lose client sales by focusing on those specific groups."

So you agree its no win? There is no way in your argument to determine which order to release army books/codex because by one way or another some section of the following will be upset that it wasn't their army?!!!

Like I say above, take out the fact that the books are related because they are the same race and you actually have two different armies, entirely different armies.

All the other rule books remain useable and so keep gaming and remain quietly optimistic that your army will get a new rulebook soon. Orks I have heard are rumoured for the end of the year.

azimaith
13-02-2007, 10:05
I think the point was missed. All I was saying is that we're not the invincible monsters we're made out to be. But again--no doubt the community will not find them happy until they are statlined to GEQ and given laspistols only at 30 points each. Either way my point was simple: they aren't overpowered.

Yeah, I said it. Space marines are not overpowered.

This thread is *are other armies playing second fiddle to space marines* which is an emphatic *yes*.



Bottom line, know your enemy. To argue that ATSKNF is overpowered while ignoring things like Without Number, Feel No Pain, We'll Be Back, and all that lot is rather one-sided, don't you think?

No, because ATSKNF is free with marines and heinously undercosted with no loss of variability.
Without Number is a steaming pile of crap which is only good for sending on another unit of non-scoring tyranids (unless they make leadership 5) which come in too late to do anything and will nearly never be capable of capturing objectives, Feel No Pain? When did an entire army get feel no pain? Its a rare skill that costs points. WBB comes at the price of no special squad weapons increased price over marines and a lack of a customizable army. ATSKNF beats the pants off of just about any special rule in the book. The only thing that could be comparable to be as good is We'll be back, and thats at the cost of never getting any upgrade power weapons or special weapons in any squad and losing automatically when you lose 25% of your necrons.



And yes, I do think that if someone shows up with 9 landspeeders you should tell him to screw. If all it's going to do is end up with you coming over to the forums and complaining about assault cannons then yeah, I'd rather you just packed up your xenos and went to another table.

I couldn't give a flying rats ass about the assault cannon. What bothers me is codex Fuschia marines getting a whole codex slot after each xenos release. If someone shows up with 9 tornados I don't care, i'd rather get my ork codex before 2008 and and tell "Codex Space Marines in Dresses" to get to the back of the line, or better yet, get on the bus with Codex Space Marines.



People leave out so many factors. Point costs, numbers, the FoC...you guys act like the whole game is a book and dice and there's no terrain, no strategy, no line of sight, no opportunity to exploit an enemy's weakness, no objectives. There's a lot more to the game and I have seen firsthand and secondhand that even the most adept space marine player can be led astray or annihilated when the enemy faces him correctly.

So can any army, how does this prove balance? The fact is that space marines are the one race that everyone tools against because they're so common and they still do very well for themselves. Imagine if everyone tooled against guard or Orkz, they'd be crushed into the dirt game after game after game.



At the end of every game I play a large part of my army is reduced to non-scoring status, if not outright destroyed. I don't understand how you all think I'm so unstoppable powerful and unfair if I am allegedly playing such a "forgiving" newbie army. If I'm strategizing actively and using cover, vying for primary targets and the objective, and yet still see much of my army wounded and dead each game...well I guess it can't be that forgiving, can it?

Uh, do you have any idea what happens to armies like guard and Orkz if they mess up comparatively? Do the words "Wiped off the board on turn 4" mean anything to you?



Yeah I know, I can already hear the arguments that I probably did something wrong, I don't know how to play the game, etc etc...but I think I DO know how to play the game a little better than a total newb at the very least. And if this army is so forgiving and overpowered to total newbs, then why is it not seeming more invincible in my hands?

Oh, it must be because I only have one assault cannon...right? /sarcasm
Your missing the point of the thread, space marines are over represented, and your arguments are daft considering that nearly everyone tools against space marines yet they still do very well which is proof in and of itself of their power.

Huw_Dawson
13-02-2007, 11:05
Handbags away Ladies. :rolleyes:

As soon as someone brings up the "money" arguement, consider this:

Space Marines cost about £33 to get a legal army (One tactial squad box, one commander box)

Imperial Guard cost about £60 to get started (One Commander with a command squad, two cadian shock troop boxes)

I could go on but I really can't see the point. Simply, SM are probably the cheapest army in the game, so obviously any cash strapped person starting 40k will pick them.

- Huw

superknijn
13-02-2007, 12:19
I do really like the coolness of Space Marines, but the game is saturated with SM-players. Chaos Space Marines and Daemonhunters are basicly (very basicly (bad grammar, I know)) the same, and are much 'cooler'. (that's so nineties) They've got much more 'Wow!', like Vista does compared to XP ;) .

Captain Micha
13-02-2007, 12:19
they should be picking the tau for financial cheapness

jfrazell
13-02-2007, 12:21
Huw_Dawson, thats a powerful argument as well for marine popularity as well. I know at current prices I would not be able to acquire a troopy guard force.

Farris
13-02-2007, 12:27
well, as many others has replied before me:D....

I think the SM is WAY to overrated, as everyone starts with them.
Me myself, I prefer the tyranids, chaos and orks, 'cause they simply are wonderful!:D
personaly I would like a new boxed set with, for instance: chaos and IG
or some plastic SOB, to be completely off topic:angel:
It seems like it always is about the marines....all I hear is "space marines are so good" etc:wtf:


~Farris

ashc
13-02-2007, 12:27
It is a very good point. You can build a really quite impressive 1500pt force easily with a megaforce and battleforce for instance; Thats £150 (or even better if you can get online discounts etc) compared to pretty much every other army out there.

Ash

Getz
13-02-2007, 12:31
Imperial Guard cost about £60 to get started (One Commander with a command squad, two cadian shock troop boxes)


More even than that, as the army above lacks the compulsory HQ sqads for the infantry platoons...

Plus it has no heavy weapons at all...

The cheapest way of making a legal list would probably be to buy the above plus two Heavy weapon squad boxes (thus adding six heavy weapons to the army and releasing 12 troopers to make up the Platoon HQ's) for about £85 - That or buy a Chimera and field an Armoured Fist squad for about he same cost.

Huw_Dawson
13-02-2007, 20:51
Heck, I could go into real detail about various army prices, but I am going to consise it as I only own three codex's (IG, SM and Nids). I'm just getting really annoyed at the fact that people are screaming "GW Money Laundering Satan Worshiping GREED MONKEHS!" every five minutes, even though they they haven't raised their prices in 2005 or 2006 iirc. Hell, if oil prices stay at the current price (it's 86.9p for a litre of petrol in blighty at the mo) we might be seeing slight price decreases... although considering that GW has sinking sales this is probably an insane notion. :p

Are Space Marines overused? Yes.
Is this because they are TEHAWSOMEOMGNOOBPOWAAH? No.
Is this because the models are nice? Not really.
Is this because of the fact that they are a darned cheap army? Yes!

Heck, this is giving me an idea for a new addition to my signature...

Let's compare again, to the other "starter" army. This is tyranids. (yes! There's something else in the macragge box other than the marines!)

Space Marine HQ: £18
An alternative is one of the blistered HQ's at £8
Space Marine Tactial Box: £18

Grand total is £36/£26 for a legal, if tiny, army. (I make it 300pts)

This is where it becomes interesting:

Tyranid Hive Tyrant: £25
The Alternative is either a Broodlord with 'stealers bundle at £26 or Warriors at £18
Gaunts: £18

Grand total is £36 at a minimum, the same price. But then we look closer, and we see the obvious. The points value is 250pts at a strech. And it's a much worse army.

This is repeated time and time again in all the other armies. Even Chaos Marines are paying £40 for their start up.

If GW are money laundering scoundrels, why is their cheapest army their starter army? :)

- Huw