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View Full Version : Watched a 1500 point battle today.



DarkAngel74
10-02-2007, 21:47
Yup, at Showcase Comics after having a bowl of fried rice at a nearby Chinese restaurant. Food was good, but the quantity was too much. I told the owner about that and he said "Hmm.... my other customers say it's rather too small in size...". Geez, just how much food do you Americans eat?

Anyway, a fellow at my age (10th grade)named Cory and an older guy was playing 1500pt OK(Cory) VS Dwarves. I had an impression that....... JESUS FLAMING CHRIST, JUST HOW TERRIFYING IS THE GUNLINE. More than half of Ogres were butchered by Organ gun, Bolt Throwers, Handgunners, and Crossbows even before the close combat. When I first saw OK army, I had an impression that they must be terribly powerful army, but at least from today's experience, they turned out be a bunch of dumb couch potatos who have to take panic test every time a model or two dies. So much for their size. They sure were quite powerful at close combat, killing three Ironbreakers in first charge and wiping out Slayers, but what's the use of it when their numbers are reduced to less than half even before they approach?

For the Dwarves.... I have nothing to say but crying out "CHEESE!!" Gunline terrorize me. Good thing is that sekelies can be refilled like soda at McDonald's, but at 1500pt army, maximum number of Liche Preists I can field would be only two. I am truly concerned about how to deal with them when I face them. But for now, I am just happy about finding a Warhammer community nearby. I should gather my army soon and jump into the combat. Here I come, Amerikaners!

Jester007
10-02-2007, 22:05
All the advice I can give you is that scorpions are your friends. They can tunnel right next to the gunlines and charge them the same turn. They can hold out on their own while the rest of your army marches up relatively unharmed. I don't play TKs, so I don't have any other tips I can give you. Hope this post was a little helpful. See ya!

Got Squig?

superczhunk
11-02-2007, 02:34
That's because despite having T4 and W3 a piece, it's not going to save the ogres unless they have some armor. I've had some games where my ogres get decimated by gunfire and become almost ineffective in combat. One game I played I faced 12 fanatics and didn't move much till most were drawn out. You would think having only 3-4 ogres per unit would be enough to survive, but T4 is not enough protection depending on what army you're playing.

Move Fast Hit Low
11-02-2007, 02:48
If the OK player knew ahead of time that he would be playing a "gunline" then he should have brought some gnoblars as screens, Gorgers to get behind the line, and Ironguts to have a nice armor save every once in a while. OK in the hands of the right player can do a great amount of damage and send you home crying, but even good players lose to cheesy armies, **** happens.

Reflex
11-02-2007, 03:14
with gunline armies the only way to deal with them is with incredibly fast moving flanking units... other wise, what happened ot the ogres will happen to you...

bluesky322
11-02-2007, 03:36
yes fear my mighty gunlines hahahaha

personaly it could have all gone wrong for the gunline player if he had gotten some misfires so i dont care about other peoples whining about them

DarkAngel74
11-02-2007, 04:07
He did have two Gnoblars, but one was massacred by Dwarf Rangers in first turn, and other was stuck in forest for whole game. Luck wasn't on his side as well. Come to think of it, yea, I do have Tomb Scorpions and Tomb Swarms in my hand. That should come helpful.

Anardakil
11-02-2007, 11:29
Ogres are probably the army in fantasy that suffers the most from heavy shooting. Sure they're t4 and 3 wounds each. They also have 3+ attacks each. But think about it... they've got almost no armour at all and they are very expensive and they've got big bases, and NO RANKS.
This means that they are kind of like a unit of orcs with more movement but no ranks (sure they've got bull charge, but that's hardly better than ranks). It's no wonder they're blown apart by gunlines when a handgun wounds an ogre on 4+ and doesn't allow it to get an armour save.

EvC
11-02-2007, 12:11
For the Dwarves.... I have nothing to say but crying out "CHEESE!!" Gunline terrorize me. Good thing is that sekelies can be refilled like soda at McDonald's, but at 1500pt army, maximum number of Liche Preists I can field would be only two. I am truly concerned about how to deal with them when I face them.

Unfortunately it's not going to get any better- the new Dwarf Megaforce set will have another 40 Dwarf gunners and two cannons in it, so expect to see dwarf gunlines become one of the most ridiculously common occurences on the battlefield, if they aren't already.

Corrupt
11-02-2007, 20:16
Dwarf Gunlines are the worst army lists ever.
I despise them! Theres a guy at my local. Turns up for a game, pulls out a pile of artillary, then some thunderers and quarrelers+the anvil for good measure.
Sets up his little defence line. Laughs as every army (literally EVERY army) that plays against it bassically runs full tilt into a brick wall.
I found myself (a HE player) rooting for DE the other day, when out of 2K army with cav, troops, bolt throwers etc, Only 9 Black Guard+Noble, 8 Warriors and 6 Shades reached melee. Totally wiped out for the loss of about a dozen dwarves in the whole game
I do believe I'ts lost about three times. To Slann mage Priest/HE Uber maagic armies, which got lucky with spells.

Makarion
11-02-2007, 20:18
Between the BfSP set (most of the dwarf models I see are from this set nowadays) and the new megaforce, I'm afraid EvC is right. I'm glad my local dwarf player doesn't likes artillery too much and *only* fielded 30 handgunners (at 1,500 points).

At least no one considers my Empire a gunline. In that same battle I had 1 cannon and 16 handguns (plus 7 skirmishing archers). People are still scared of the cannon (since I beheaded an Exalted Daemon two games in a row), but it more or less pales in comparison to what dwarfs can do, if they wanted to.

Corrupt
11-02-2007, 20:30
Seconded
The problem isnt thunderers/hangunners/arty, which can be useful and powerful, but still cool and fluffy. The problem comes in when it's taken at the expense of all else so that despite controlling every other phase, the opponent has no real chance because your shoot phase is so insanly powerful.
It is NO fun having your army charge head on into a brick wall, where it becomes a game of "How Little can I lose by" You may aswell remove 2d6 men from each regiment a turn and count it as a draw if half or more reach the board edge.

Makarion
11-02-2007, 20:34
Actually, it wasn't too bad. Handguns only have a 24" range, and with judicious use of cover you can get your infantry close enough that you suffer 1 round of shooting in the open only, with some luck. When faced with extreme armies, it's imperative to place terrain and deploy with care.

konate
11-02-2007, 22:54
Just watched a tourney here in Taiwan, where the winner was an Empire gun-line. I was pulling for a Chaos Knight heavy army (first time for everything) to teach him a lesson in HtH, but they evaporated before they could even get there.

Overt_Spy
11-02-2007, 23:25
So what exactly constitutes as a gunline army? I'm fairly new to WHFB and I play Dwarfs (usually 1500 pts) and I bring 20 Thunderers (2X10 groups) and either a cannon or an Organ gun (usually Cannon though) but also field 20-25 warriors, and about 15 Ironbreakers or Slayers, and my Thane doesn't have any pistols or ballistics. So a majority of my troops are shooters, is that gunline?

Voodoo Boyz
12-02-2007, 00:22
I just played my first 2250 game this past friday. I played two, one game I expanded my 2k army by adding 25 Warriors w/ FC. I lost (though it was my 3rd game and I deployed poorly). The second game I took the advice of the people I was with and added another unit of Thunderers and other shooty goodness.

My total shooting was:

12 Quarrellers
10 Thunderers
11 Thunderers
Organ Gun
Cannon
2 Bolt Throwers

The rest was
Gryo
24 Longbeards
25 Warriors
19 Hammerers
10 Slayers
Runesmith
BSB Thane

Is that too shooty/cheesy for 2250 Points?

Alathir
12-02-2007, 00:40
Overt Spy, that isnt gunline, you're sweet.

Voodoo, that's also pretty standard... not that devastating... of course it depends on who you are versing.

Makarion
12-02-2007, 07:41
So what exactly constitutes as a gunline army? I'm fairly new to WHFB and I play Dwarfs (usually 1500 pts) and I bring 20 Thunderers (2X10 groups) and either a cannon or an Organ gun (usually Cannon though) but also field 20-25 warriors, and about 15 Ironbreakers or Slayers, and my Thane doesn't have any pistols or ballistics. So a majority of my troops are shooters, is that gunline?

As a very rough sketch of an Empire gunline at 1,500 points:

Battlewizard lvl 2 Lore of Metal, Orb of Thunder
Battlewizard lvl 2 Lore of Fire, 2 dispel scrolls

2 units of 12 crossbowmen (30" range)
4 units of 12 handgunners (24") with marksman and Hochland Long Rifle (30")
1 unit of 10 huntsmen (24" scouts)

1 unit of 10 outriders (24") with champion and Hochland Long Rifle (30")
2 great cannon

1 helblaster volley gun

The above should be something like 1450 points (I'm doing this by heart, it's a rough estimate).

All the Long Rifles are maybe a bit over the top for even a gunline, but they are sure to cut down enemy wizards, unit champions, war machine crew, etc, given a few shots.

The cannon take care of heavy cavalry, assisted by generic shooting from the handgunners, and the wizards protect against enemy magic as well as adding their own nasty brand of mass destruction. Lores have been chosen to have good access to flaming magic missiles, but other lores are certainly possible without changing the army much.

The huntsmen are scouts and thus marchblockers, assisted by the outriders. You don't want to mmove the outriders much, but once parked on a flank, they still hinder enemy movement some. Last but not least, the Orb of Thunder forces all flyers to walk, thus slowing down approaching enemies even more. Only ambush armies should reliably arrive before being shot to pieces, but that's a calculated risk.

Suffice to say, I would never play tripe like this, and I advice anyone to spend your time educating whoever brings this to a game instead of playing it out.

blurred
12-02-2007, 08:11
Hmm. I agree that gunlines are nasty and no fun to play against, but the mentality in this thread seems to suggest that they are unbeatable which is not the case. There are plenty of armies that win gunlines almost by default. Wood elves, beasts of chaos, bretonnians and skaven spring to mind. Even my standard greenskin army has an excellent chance of reaching the gunline with acceptable losses and when they get there, its going to be a massacre. And god forbid if two gunline armies face each other. Its an almost guaranteed draw. I have to admit that armies like ogre kingdoms, chaos and DE/HE are in trouble because they have so few models and they are quite fragile.


Only ambush armies should reliably arrive before being shot to pieces, but that's a calculated risk.


I have to disagree with you on this one. Weighted flank is a great tactic when facing an army like the one you posted. And the orb of thunder is easily dispelled, thus giving flyers a decent chance to rip the small shooty units to shreds.


Sets up his little defence line. Laughs as every army (literally EVERY army) that plays against it bassically runs full tilt into a brick wall.

Maybe someone should come up with a different tactic than just running straight into a brick wall (whatever that means, lots of shooty units can hardly be described as a brick wall). Try ambushing, weighted flank, screening, shooting of your own, tunnelers and big blocks of infantry. :)

Makarion
12-02-2007, 09:04
Hmm. I agree that gunlines are nasty and no fun to play against, but the mentality in this thread seems to suggest that they are unbeatable which is not the case. There are plenty of armies that win gunlines almost by default. Wood elves, beasts of chaos, bretonnians and skaven spring to mind. Even my standard greenskin army has an excellent chance of reaching the gunline with acceptable losses and when they get there, its going to be a massacre. And god forbid if two gunline armies face each other. Its an almost guaranteed draw. I have to admit that armies like ogre kingdoms, chaos and DE/HE are in trouble because they have so few models and they are quite fragile.



I have to disagree with you on this one. Weighted flank is a great tactic when facing an army like the one you posted. And the orb of thunder is easily dispelled, thus giving flyers a decent chance to rip the small shooty units to shreds.


Maybe someone should come up with a different tactic than just running straight into a brick wall (whatever that means, lots of shooty units can hardly be described as a brick wall). Try ambushing, weighted flank, screening, shooting of your own, tunnelers and big blocks of infantry. :)

Agreed, it works well. Most flyers are fairly easily shot down though, even if the Orb is dispelled. Of course, the magic users have to be alive for that, but I agree that flyers usually only need 2 turns to be at the enemy.

Note, that my handgunners have defeated chaos furies, but that was 16 handgunners (no command) in two ranks versus 7 furies. Smaller units of missile troops, other than perhaps dwarf quarrellers, cannot hope for this.


As a partial counter-tactic to your very valid strategies I had included 2 lvl 2 mages, who likely can at least hold their own at 1,500 points. With only a minimal amount of luck they can peel a screen in the magic phase, so the shooting phase can deal with the troops behind them. Just in case you don't have enough shooting units on a hill, of course. Or outriders on a flank.

I wonder whether gung-ho magic heavy would work against a gunline? I don't think you can get enough power dice at 1,500 to really hurt it much, but once you hit 2,000 Tzeentch at least should be able to slaughter such a list. And terror, all of a sudden, becomes much more troublesome as well, although a dwarf gunline can deal with that a touch better.

Brushmonkey
12-02-2007, 10:03
I've not had many problems with gunline armies, whatever race they are. Mind you, I am playing with full H2H Lizards, so that helps a LOT. I get the feeling that most complaints about gunlines come from people who play with limited scenery. Games shouldn't be open topped affairs!

EvC
12-02-2007, 14:28
Smaller units of missile troops, other than perhaps dwarf quarrellers, cannot hope for this.

Dwarf missile troops are pretty decent in combat, add a stand and shoot reaction and charging them is going to be painful! Not to mention Entrenchment of Dwarvern artillery gives them even more ability to resist the charge...

Gimp
12-02-2007, 15:09
I know Empire and Dwarf gun lines are very good but what about a Dark Elf or High Elf gun line.

Here is a 1500 points of Dark Elves

Noble+Great Weapon+Repeater Crossbow+Blood Armour+Cloak of Dark Souls
Level 2 Sorceress+Dark Star Cloak
Level 2 Sorceress+Wand of Kharaidon
5 Dark Riders+Repeater Crossbows
5 Dark Riders+Repeater Crossbows
10 Dark Elf warriors+Repeater Crossbows
10 Dark Elf warriors+Repeater Crossbows
10 Dark Elf warriors+Repeater Crossbows
10 Dark Elf warriors+Repeater Crossbows
11 Shades (noble goes here-cloak gives him scout ability)
2 Reaper Bolt Throwers

Gimp
12-02-2007, 15:19
I know Empire and Dwarf gun lines are very good but what about a Dark Elf or High Elf gun line.

Here is a 1500 points of Dark Elves

Noble+Great Weapon+Repeater Crossbow+Blood Armour+Cloak of Dark Souls
Level 2 Sorceress+Dark Star Cloak
Level 2 Sorceress+Wand of Kharaidon
5 Dark Riders+Repeater Crossbows
5 Dark Riders+Repeater Crossbows
10 Dark Elf warriors+Repeater Crossbows
10 Dark Elf warriors+Repeater Crossbows
10 Dark Elf warriors+Repeater Crossbows
10 Dark Elf warriors+Repeater Crossbows
11 Shades (noble goes here-cloak gives him scout ability)
2 Reaper Bolt Throwers

Gazak Blacktoof
12-02-2007, 15:35
Usually loading a flank is key to defeating a gun line with an elite army, its a messy affair if the dice go your opponenet's way but you should still be in with a chance.

You can easily overload a flank so that some of the units positioned there make it to combat. Swing as far out to the edges with your fastest units as possible to try to make sure your units hit at the same time OR make a quick dash (whilst maintaining a reasonable amount of cover) to attempt to pick off nasties like hellblasters and organ guns that rip your slower moving infantry appart.

****

A largely homogeneous horde army stands the best chance of defeating a gun line normally. If there's nothing for cannons and the like to target then they're effectively a big waste of points. Who cares if a few rats, goblins, orcs or humans get shot, the gun is as likely to jam or junk itself as it is to cause any significant damage.

With my greenskins my giant tends to stand in reserve for the first 3-4 turns, moving only as far up the board as cover will allow without exposing himself to fire, as soon as the lines clash he can safely jump out and scare the enemy away and start cracking skulls. If push comes to shove i'll expose him to 1 turn's limited fire (by which I mean 1 unit or cannon) so that he can tie a unit up to stop my opponent exploiting a hole in my line. Generally 2 turns of terror and bashing is plenty for his points when coupled with the psychological factor of having the big man looming behind a forest waiting to pounce, knowing that my foolish opponent with his static army can do nothing to prevent him pounding his feeble cowards into compost.

Corrupt
13-02-2007, 17:19
I know Empire and Dwarf gun lines are very good but what about a Dark Elf or High Elf gun line.

Here is a 1500 points of Dark Elves

Noble+Great Weapon+Repeater Crossbow+Blood Armour+Cloak of Dark Souls
Level 2 Sorceress+Dark Star Cloak
Level 2 Sorceress+Wand of Kharaidon
5 Dark Riders+Repeater Crossbows
5 Dark Riders+Repeater Crossbows
10 Dark Elf warriors+Repeater Crossbows
10 Dark Elf warriors+Repeater Crossbows
10 Dark Elf warriors+Repeater Crossbows
10 Dark Elf warriors+Repeater Crossbows
11 Shades (noble goes here-cloak gives him scout ability)
2 Reaper Bolt Throwers

The problem with gunlines, unlike this is the prevelence of artillary (nastier than your bolts) and the fact shots are Str 4 and AP for the same cost as your Str 3 shots, so lots more people die per volley. It's even worse for way overpointed HE archers.

As to the weighted flank. What do you do when the dwarf army is as compact as possible you you're funneled into his weighted flank? Factor in the fact dwarf missile troops are by no means screwed when they reach melee.

Admittedly I did manage a minor victory against this army this morning.
2kpts. He took his handgunners/arty list. I took Magic Heavy expensive troops and 4 RBT's. Hid the suitable small army behind woods/hills/buildings and shot at long range with RBT's and magic. Only just managed a voctory. He was v annoyed that my troops didnt emerge from cover in the whole game, so maybe now he gets what it's like actually trying to attack his army.

Gazak Blacktoof
13-02-2007, 17:40
As to the weighted flank. What do you do when the dwarf army is as compact as possible you're funneled into his weighted flank?


Short answer.

Don't be!

Long answer.

If you're being funelled into an ideal position for a defensive army sitting on a hill in a corner to pull you to pieces then you're screwed unless you've got a nice counter. For example lots of fanatics when they don't have a flame cannon, or rock lobbers/ cannons when they don't have enough to counter, lucky tunnellers, ambushers, ward saves for your troops and an uber lord.

If you're fighting your opponent and they've got an ideal setup, change it. Move the terrain a bit, move that hill out of his deployment zone, or at least move it into the middle of his DZ, get some cover down in the mid section of the board or simply change the scenario to an objective based one.

The game is supposed to be balanced, no point in playing if the result is a foregone conclusion unless you like the numbing inevitablity of defeat.

Many of the balance issues disappear in both 40K and fantasy when you play scenarios. Suddenly 5 warmachines and 400 points of ranged troops isn't looking quite as sweet when your infantry have to abandon it to secure the farmsted in the centre of the board against the marauding greenskin tribes.

Crazy Harborc
13-02-2007, 18:03
We do spend more time arranging terrain before table sides are chosen. Scenarios (when random rolling is used to pick them) are a good way to help level the playingfield. Woods are NOT friends of gunlines as much as hiding places to move closer to the shooters without getting shot at. Taking the hills as your terrain choices can deny their use to the gunlines.

Race across the board, use flyers (if you can), use cheap troops as shields for your good stuff. Try playing higher points games.

Try hexing your opponent's dice.:D

Sasha
13-02-2007, 23:48
if you have some cheap units, you could put them visible to the cannons (the rest of your army hides) with the idea that the cannon exploding is more likely than it doing enough it's own points in damage.

dominic_carrillo
13-02-2007, 23:57
Dwarf Gunlines are the worst army lists ever.
I despise them! Theres a guy at my local. Turns up for a game, pulls out a pile of artillary, then some thunderers and quarrelers+the anvil for good measure.


im afraid that this trend im WFB will lead to it becoming like 40K. more and more shooty armies will come out, and the rules will become simpler, just to attract young kids that would normally play spacemarines and tau.

SAVE WFB. Say NO! to the gunline.

TimmyMWD
14-02-2007, 02:34
I do alright with Bretonnians against the gunline. I usually put MY in front of my lances to eat up missile fire, or I just chance it because generally I'm going to be in h2h by turn 2. I'll overload one side of his line and tear it apart. One game, my opponent got a little PO'd when I told him that the lance he reduced by 50% didn't have to take a panic check and in fact hated his missile units. heh.

adreal
14-02-2007, 04:55
im afraid that this trend im WFB will lead to it becoming like 40K. more and more shooty armies will come out, and the rules will become simpler, just to attract young kids that would normally play spacemarines and tau.

SAVE WFB. Say NO! to the gunline.


Er i fail to see this, in third ed, the simplified rules edition, was more geared to getting into combat ASAP, not 'gunlines' sure imp guard could do that but only they could untill iron warriors and tau came out. So 3 armies out of how many, to me, doesn't say 'OMG 40K is uber shooting'

When we loose the movement stat, then we can worry about turning into 40K.

How to deal with gunlines, er.....use more terrian in the middle of the board, if gunline player complains, say that your general has decided to only commet his force where he has ample terrain. If gunline player still complains, then offer to play for an objective (where he has to move), or just say well, lets find other opponents.