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WARHAMMERED
11-02-2007, 20:23
Me and my friend are buying the skull pass set. I'll be using goblins and him dwarves. I was thinking of painting them in tzeentch colours, like they were corrupted by the lord of change. When I expand on this army I intend to make it super magic heavy, just like tzeentch, so I am wondering how powerful is orcs and gobbo's magic???.

larabic
11-02-2007, 20:31
O&G magic is among the most outright destructive magic there is, very easy to base an army around it. Though Tzeench doesn't hold a flame to Gork and Mork!

pcgamer72
11-02-2007, 20:38
Yes, even the Little Waagh! can be quite devestating. At least gobbos aren't able to use the Big one anymore (geesh!).

Goblin Shamans are probably one of the most point-effective wizards out there though, imo, so you can definately make it work well for you.

Asuril
11-02-2007, 20:39
Screw Tzeentch! Paint them gobbo's up in the proper regalia of Gork (or maybe Mork)


:]

Heretic Burner
11-02-2007, 22:42
O&G have two fairly decent spell lists. However, their mechanics are absolutely dreadful making them one of the worst magic using armies in the game. In short, you've got shamans that love to jump into combat or waste their power dice completely - a chance for free dispell scrolls for your opponent from each of your shamans every turn! Generally a ghastly choice altogether beyond a spell caddy.

As for your theme, well, it isn't entirely 'fluffy'. Feel free to do what you wish with your army, but simply taking a lot of magic doesn't make them any more Tzeentchian. I've never seen a decent chaos O&G army (and there have been MANY attempts).

All in all I would advise against your idea. It doesn't fit from a game rules perspective. It doesn't fit from a background perspective. It just doesn't fit really well at all really.

Aelyn
11-02-2007, 22:53
O&G have two fairly decent spell lists. However, their mechanics are absolutely dreadful making them one of the worst magic using armies in the game. In short, you've got shamans that love to jump into combat or waste their power dice completely - a chance for free dispell scrolls for your opponent from each of your shamans every turn! Generally a ghastly choice altogether beyond a spell caddy.
Uhh... Night Goblin Shamans love to fight now? And what do you mean waste their power dice entirely?

I'm confused...

As for your theme, well, it isn't entirely 'fluffy'. Feel free to do what you wish with your army, but simply taking a lot of magic doesn't make them any more Tzeentchian. I've never seen a decent chaos O&G army (and there have been MANY attempts).

All in all I would advise against your idea. It doesn't fit from a game rules perspective. It doesn't fit from a background perspective. It just doesn't fit really well at all really.
I disagree. One of the main points, in a gaming perspective, in favour of the Night Goblin horde is how plain silly it is. In terms of the way the army acts, I'd argue there's a lot of potential for Tzeentch or Slaanesh flavour in a Goblin horde. Squigs and Pump Wagons make really good rules for generic transformed things, and I'm sure it's not tough to come up with Slanneshi flavour which explains why Fanatics act the way they do, or the effects of Netters... (think haze of sweet smoke from drugs or something like that)

Of course, that's not to say it would work well on the battlefield. Remember Dwarves are probably the best anti-magic army in the game, and that Goblin really do need the Leadership benefits of a non-Shaman character...

You're tempting me to change my army to a pseudo-Chaotic theme now. Stop it!

Heretic Burner
12-02-2007, 03:13
Uhh... Night Goblin Shamans love to fight now? And what do you mean waste their power dice entirely?

I'm confused...


I don't see how. Maybe I should clarify we're talking about animosity. A 6 will propel your units forward, including your soft shamans into combat they likely don't want to be found. Yes there are ways around it, but then again your investing yet more to deal with the problem.

However, the real death blow to the magic phase is squabble. Shamans squabble, there goes two power dice. Great shamans squabble...and it gets even uglier. Free scrolls to your opponent, basically handicapping you before you even start the game. Your also dealing with dreadful leadership at that point and it becomes clear its a waste of points and simply doesn't work.

The OP suggested going magic heavy makes the army just like Tzeentch. Well, no it doesn't. From a fluff perspective the more magic heavy your shamans go the closer to the Great Green your perspective O&G tribe is - thus the less like Tzeentch.

As an opponent I would much prefer to come across say a Nurgle themed O&G army if it had to be chaos leaning. I think conversion opportunities would be very strong and as an added bonus you keep the green aesthetic!

John Wayne II
12-02-2007, 10:30
I don't see how. Maybe I should clarify we're talking about animosity. A 6 will propel your units forward, including your soft shamans into combat they likely don't want to be found. Yes there are ways around it, but then again your investing yet more to deal with the problem.

However, the real death blow to the magic phase is squabble. Shamans squabble, there goes two power dice. Great shamans squabble...and it gets even uglier. Free scrolls to your opponent, basically handicapping you before you even start the game. Your also dealing with dreadful leadership at that point and it becomes clear its a waste of points and simply doesn't work.



Or... you can have them run around on their own. Single models don't have to take an animosity test. With this edition it's harder to protect them, but with proper screening it shouldn't be too hard to do that. That's why boars are such a great buy for Shamans, they allow them to be where they are need or move away from potential danger. And they give them an armour save. Goblin shamans are not so easy to protect, but by interposing units between them and dangerous units, and by taking care of enemy shooting fast (and considering we probably have the best fast cavalry in the game it shouldn't be too hard to do that).

And O&G magic actually improved this edition. Whether the spells are better or not is subjective, but the fact that you no longer have to be in a certain range to get free power dice from Orc units in combat is huge, as you can keep your shamans as far back as possible, away from the battle line (and danger) and still get those lovely free power dice.

Seriously dude...stop being so negative.

Tutore
12-02-2007, 10:56
The spells are useful, but the mechanics of releasing the spells isnīt that good. I prefer a combat O & G army, using a shaman as scroll caddie. You donīt have enough power dice. And if you try the mushrooms, there is a high probability to have your shaman exploded.

xiau
12-02-2007, 11:37
FOOT OF GORK!!! one of the most destructive spell there is :) :)

Delusionist
12-02-2007, 11:53
My brother got the Battle for Skull Pass box, and we decided to beef it up a bit as I used to be a Dwarf player and he has lots of Orcs. I let him take a goblin and a Orc shaman (both 2nd level) with nice magic items (the sneaky stealing thingy and the staff of baduum... something). He then got to add some fanatics and other stuff, and I got to take a flamecannon, a bolt thrower and a stone thrower.

Not very balances, but much more fun.

I got really devastated by his magic and stupid spider riders (got around my army and went through all my warmachines). On one game he got foot of gork AND gorks warpath. Those are really really sick spells.

Shinobi_8745
12-02-2007, 13:47
I'd say put the shaman with a unit of snotlings, then he gets lots of meatchields, immune to psychology, stubborn and no animosity! So he can stand around somewhere casting spells at the enemy, being protected by the lil 'uns.

Makarion
12-02-2007, 19:05
First time I hear a dwarf army having problems with lvl 2 spellcasters. Do I understand it correctly he had only 6 powerdice and that caused you trouble?

Crazy Snika
12-02-2007, 20:57
as the proud owner of a Night Gobbos only army, I can confirm that the magic is devastating. Brain Bursta works amazingly against chaos marauders. One spell and they fled of the board, 20 of 'em. Now that's effective.

Heretic Burner
12-02-2007, 23:46
Screening of course doesn't work with the new O&G due to the new animosity which ruins your screen 1/3 of the time. As has been mentioned that leaves snotlings - point for point one of the most dreadful units in the game. Of course the heavy, heavy hit in the generation of extra dice doesn't help either.

Combat O&G really is the way they've shoehorned the army. Fortunately they've at least granted the spirit totem to help out with things, clearly even the designers had to admit that O&G shamans were a lost cause. Token caddy with scrolls and the banner and you're all set. Sad what we end up with is a predictable O&G army list-wise but thems the breaks. :rolleyes:

feeder
13-02-2007, 05:33
Wow, HB, you sure have some bad luck with your O&G.

I use two lvl 2 Orc Shamans and a lvl 4 NG shaman in my 3k army. I also take the 'Itty Ring and sometimes the Horn of Urgok. There's enough power dice that my opponent has to choose which spells to dispel carefully. With a BOBSB and a BOWB to crack heads, Animosity has never really hurt my magic phase.

O&G magic can ruin your opponent's day. Mork wants YA! kills war machines dead, Foot of Gork and Warpath can make short work of war machines and small units of elites.

Brain Bursta is a great sniper, and Fists of Gork really, really hurts big units of wimps. The only real stinker is Gaze of Mork, but that may be because my usual opponent is Dwarfs, and S2 vs T4 doesn't really cut it. vs T3 2+ knights might be another story.

Delusionist
13-02-2007, 06:18
@Shinobi_8745: He has the sneaky staff thing, and stole one of my dospel dice every turn. So that's 7pd against 3dd, not too good odds. He also had one boung item with the 'eddbutt spell. Normaly he got about 1 or two spells through, but they can really hurt if they come at str6 and my largest unit has 12 models.

Heretic Burner
14-02-2007, 00:43
Delusionist - Ah! That explains a lot why there was so much trouble with the terrible O&G magic phase. Not only was absolutely no magic defence taken whatsoever, there was rampant cheating as well. Sneaky staff steals a power dice, not a dispel dice. It doesn't grant a power dice at all.

This is even discounting the odds and ends you've just randomly added to each army, are the points values even remotely equal?

I guess this just goes to show you that O&G magic can work - if rampant cheating is allowed.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
14-02-2007, 00:47
HB. Settle down. You'll give yourself a Miagraine, and they really hurt!

Gobbos have many, many weaknesses that need to be overcome with Tactics. Okay, you'll have an ill disciplined rabble that doesn't always do what you want it to. Well, thats the appeal of Gobbos. Even a Halfling can kick a Goblins teeth out. Just as well there are lots of them then, isn't it?

Essentially, plan how you want your army to work, then work in the characters with the right items and abilities. Play a few games, and see how it goes. If it falters, check it's not your tactics, before blaming the rules.

Delusionist
14-02-2007, 08:25
Hm, I should have read the rules better. He's only 13 (started studying english 2 years ago), so I really can't blame him for cheating.

Now that I think about it I'm not sure if I had 3 or 4 dd.

The points were pretty equal, but he beat me every time, except for when his orc shaman blew up his head. It's reall hard to defend oneself when I knew he had the bound spell 'edbutt against my champs and characters (my slayer rarely made it to combat). Damage spells are really bad against small units, especially if they coma at str 6.

Their magic isn't the best, but they have gotten some really annoying spells. The mushrooms are really funny and worked really well.

The point were pretty equal, but I had decided not to include any other characters as I wanted war machines (and I hada a lot of them). They just let me down.

Magic didn't win him the game, but it did help him. The amount of units on the board won him the game.

Franco
14-02-2007, 12:11
Does anyone know when the plastic black orcs are coming out (if they are) and how many there will be in a box???

Heretic Burner
15-02-2007, 00:10
Magic didn't win him the game, but it did help him. The amount of units on the board won him the game.

From the sounds of it your confusion on how many dice you started with, the rule mistakes, the random nature of your adding a mish-mash of units - well it sounds you're pretty new to this game. However, the quote right here sums up what you should learn from this.

He spent a MASSIVE amount of points on that magic which could have been used on yet more troops. Yes, even dreadful O&G magic is expected to do something if you take it, after all you're paying points for it. But how devestating would the game be if instead of taking the poor magic he'd taken more units? Much different I can assure you.

But your biggest problem?

1) No magic defence whatsoever. Even dwarfs need something to stop that be all and end all spell.

2) Your biggest unit was 12 models? How is this possible? Your opponent spent a massive number of points on magic and yet you only have units of 12? Too much on warmachines I suppose but I can't say I've ever seen anything like that out of a dwarf army.

Let me put it to you this way. Even with the enormous amount of points spent on magic your opponent ended up with only 6 power dice. You start with 4! With a single runesmith and rune of spell breaking you've got 5 and that emergency get out of jail free card. In a fraction of the points cost your opponent spent you've pretty much nullified his magic phase AND added a semi-decent amount of punch to a combat unit.

While you played at odds of 7pd vs 3dd, you will find that your odds of 6pd vs 5dd are very much improved! Keep in mind it is likely with two shamans your opponent will fail animosity at least once per game over 6 turns with them both and, well, you've pretty much ended two magic phases out of 6 right there. Properly used your rune of spell breaking will shatter a third. I haven't even considered miscasts. O&G magic is never worth it, particularly against dwarves. Now go and show your brother just why.

Delusionist
15-02-2007, 12:55
Well, I used the models from the battle for skull pass, and Dwarfs don't get many models. I traded my whole Dwarf army just a couple of weeks before he got the box, so I didn't have any runesmiths. I didn't remember how effective magic was (been playing only 40k for a couple of years now), and I didn't think I'd be in any trouble.

7pd+bound spell against 4dd is pretty unfair, but we had fun. I wanted him to use some of his old models, and the rules for O&G in the Battle box were not too good, so I let him use the army book. I knew I was going to lose, but I wanted him to learn the basic rules (and I wanted to learn them myself).

Having two 'eddbutt spells in the same game is pretty hard on characters. If I wanted to be sure to save the bound spell I would have had to save two dice for that, but I didn't see the point in that, so he got his bound spell through a couple of times.

The_Hrud
18-02-2007, 19:46
replying to crazy snika, yes my marauders do tend to run away from brain bursta. it's quite unsporting how you always roll 2 on the little waaaaagh. EVERY TIME! since i realised that you would always roll no.2, my tactics have to changed to subly assainating the shaman with a speeding chariot.