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Mozzamanx
12-02-2007, 16:38
Is it just me, or has Games Workshop let Tzeentch armies down a lot with the last armies?

In 40k, their psychic powers are in no way as good as the god of magic should be, and are easily outclassed by Librarians and Farseers.
Their basic troopers are terribly slow without a transport, and the sorcerers dont really justify the lack of heavy weapons IMO. They dont seem to play as I thought Tzeentch should play.

Also, in fantasy their magic, while very good, is still worse than the slaanesh lore. This is strange as Slaanesh should be no competition in terms of magic given the points paid for a tzeentch champ.

Thoughts?

Mojaco
12-02-2007, 16:58
True, but more 3rd edition armies suffered that fate. They'll be fine when they get a 4th edition release. Up until then, try the Chosen of Ahriman from WD 3XX (not sure which one) to play in a far more Tzeentchy way. If people won't let you, kick them.

For WFB I felt they play very tzeentchy overall. The magic might be weaker, but maybe that's because there's a better chance of getting your spells off, due to the abondence of power dice (espcially powerful now in 7th, since you are STILL free to give power dice to whoever needs it, unlike the other armies)

ShadowKitana
12-02-2007, 17:01
Who cares if they are slow and such. Tzeentch powers are offensive. I would like to see a Farseer or a Librarian blow up a Russ with their psychic powers. But then again Tzeentch cannot make the enemy run off the field just by being around and get hosed by psychic hoods. Well, I guess we can not all be Iron Warriors when it comes to power.


True, but more 3rd edition armies suffered that fate. They'll be fine when they get a 4th edition release. Up until then, try the Chosen of Ahriman from WD 3XX (not sure which one) to play in a far more Tzeentchy way. If people won't let you, kick them.

About them. they where essentualy three Lt's for one choice if I remember. While I played Thousand Sons at the time I felt that was a bit much. Although I am hoping for "the key" to be a psychic power in the next codex. I would give up my BOC's for that.

lord_blackfang
12-02-2007, 17:13
Thousand Sons are definitely at the very bottom of the 40k power structure (together with a few other novelty armies such as Kroot Mercs, or so I'm told).

What's worse, to be competitive they need to use tactics that are the opposite of what the army should actually play like, at least in my opinion.

cookiescrumble
12-02-2007, 17:20
First of all, do you play thousand sons or play against them at all?

I disagree completely, Thousand sons are a viable army. As for the Psychic powers, there is nothing wrong with them.t They aren't particularly srong but they shouldn't be. I play Thousand sons a fair bit and have good games against them, they may be slow but they have two wounds each to make up for this. They are very resilient troops. The face they can't take heavy weapons isn't really a problem, just take other units such as Dreads or Predators.

Murphey
12-02-2007, 17:22
I actually have seen some really, really effective thousand sons armies. Dustwing variants being one of them.

I would not place thousand sons near the bottom of the 40k power curve. Out of the chaos "purist" armies, I would say that Nurgle has it worse off.

The utter lack of heavy weapons in their normal squads, relativly inferior demons, and bad vehicle dedication upgrade, does not lend itself well to a good army.

Overall, I would say the greater weakness to 1k sons is not their slow and purposeful (which I personally love), but rather that so many things in the game can ID them, which completely removes the bonus of having 2 wounds.

Ever since the GW FAQ basically said that ID is checked every time you assign a wound, 1ksons have gotten alot weaker.

Now, you have 4 lascannon wounds on your squad, you lose 4 guys instead of two, which is really, really bad compared to only losing two.

ShadowKitana
12-02-2007, 18:04
When I played my sons (first off I gathered about 7000-8000 points of them) they did about average. The main problem is that most options for them are too expensive (IE: Chosen and Possesed) and the only time I hear of them being competative is with the Dust Wing.

As for their powers, when you compare them to their loyalist buddies, well which would you rather have, Fear of the Darkness or Bolt of Change. Sure BOC is a S8 AP2 weapon, but it can not make half an army run away.

And Horrors... well yea... lets just ignore them.

I am not saying that they are god awfull, but with the lack of options all list seem pretty much the same as they tend to build themselves. The only real choice is do I pick Bolt of Change for my Asp Champs or Doombolt?

Do not get me wrong, I love my sons. Created a nice character for them that everyone at the store knows of by name. It is just that, well without options they just get dull after a while.

On a side note, my sons are responsible for the largest margin of victory I ever got. Against Eldar I won by 6000vp's in a 5000 point game.

Voodoo Boyz
12-02-2007, 18:07
Thousand Sons are definitely at the very bottom of the 40k power structure (together with a few other novelty armies such as Kroot Mercs, or so I'm told).

What's worse, to be competitive they need to use tactics that are the opposite of what the army should actually play like, at least in my opinion.


I wouldn't put 1k Sons at the Bottom of the power structure. I think 1k Sons beat out Grey Knight DH as far as the "really expensive basic trooper" type specialist army. At least the 1k Sons get great support.

lord_blackfang
12-02-2007, 18:14
My greatest accomplishment with them was winning a Breakthrough mission (the one where you start in the middle of the board and have to escape via the short table edges) against Eldar.

Captain Micha
12-02-2007, 18:17
I have yet to meet a chaos force.. I think they are cool though... Tzeenctch does seem abit bad off though... farseers and librarians and all that fun stuff.....

THE KAPPTIN
12-02-2007, 19:21
I'm pretty sure the rumour's been going around that in the upcoming Chaos codex, Tzeentch will "once again be competitive" (not an exact quote). GW definitely realizes that they have a problem.

Reinnon
12-02-2007, 19:29
you assume that tzeentch isn't competitive as they are now.

the problem with the thousand is that in the game systems as it stands they are totally different to what teh fluff dicates.

the fluff: Thousand Sons are an army almost dedicated to shooting, backed up with awesome psykers

The Game: The thousand sons are an army that tries to get into combat as soon as physical possible and the sorcerers are second rate to the SMs.... often with the sorcerers acting as power fist equipped monsters.

it is possible to win with the sons, my years of experience have taught me how to do it.... and in the process i've had to accept taht for the time being they arn't really fluffy.

what i want:

1) Better non-rubrics.... rubrics are fine as they are imo (omg, someone not complaining about their point cost), its the rest of the army that needs work.

2) More trickery based powers: my army is an army dedicated to the God of Change, and all i get out of it is a move and fire lascannon and a pinning spell.

3) better wargear: Warp Blade.... enough said, give me a effective anti-psyker gear, so far thralls are the only option in my army actually taken from the tzeentch wargear

4) Psyker dominance: thousand sons should be able to totally dominate SM, and be on par with Eldar.

5) Deamons: largely suck (flamers are about usable)... horrors are a disgrace.

just my 2 cents

Darkseer
12-02-2007, 19:31
On of my friends plays Thousand Sons are they are hard as nails.

It takes so much firepower to shift one of their squads -as if space marines weren't tough enough! Worst of all, they waddle forward firing S8 AP2 powers at you along with predator and defiler support.

Then, when they finally get close, a bloody great christmas turkey flies out, casts wind of chaos and starts hacking up your blokes.

They're durable and have plenty of guns. Anyone who's getting beaten easily isn't playing properly.

TheWarSmith
12-02-2007, 19:33
Yeah, but outside of their heavy support, their only tank busing capability is in their aspiring champions with that power.

I LOVEEEE Tzeentch, but Tzeentch in 40k fills me with mixed feelings because as much as I like the feel, it's just not what i want it to be.

1900 woot!

lord_blackfang
12-02-2007, 19:35
Anyone who's getting beaten easily isn't playing properly.

Or is playing against capable opponents.

loveless
12-02-2007, 19:38
Then, when they finally get close, a bloody great christmas turkey flies out, casts wind of chaos and starts hacking up your blokes.


Oh, I so want to put a small audio device on the Lord of Change now so that it lets loose raucous gobbling when you hit play.

Guardsman: "What in the name of the Emperor is THAT?!"
Lord of Change: "GOBBLE GOBBLE GOBBLE GOBBLE!!!"

Reinnon
12-02-2007, 19:40
Oh, I so want to put a small audio device on the Lord of Change now so that it lets loose raucous gobbling when you hit play.

Guardsman: "What in the name of the Emperor is THAT?!"
Lord of Change: "GOBBLE GOBBLE GOBBLE GOBBLE!!!"

that sounds like something a keeper of secrets would shout....

i don't use the atomic chicken, as i don't consider its worth losing an asp champion

Captain Micha
12-02-2007, 19:43
*falls out of the chair laughing*Gobble... crap lol.

see thats what I do not get everyone goes "Oh no they suck" then you of course get "omg they don't" with every army. but more so with the Thousand sons... I mean at least a general consensus can be reached with other armies...

so are they good or not? I do not see psychic armies in general being very good... *eying you Librarian.* mainly due to him... and another psyker... thats the whole reason when it comes time to play guard I plan on my sanctioned psyker having the honorifica and a force weapon.... that and the lack of psychic power possibility.

but back on topic. Are they shooty? or are they supposed to be up close? and do they suck or not? I know with as little as info as I have on chaos in game wise my opinion sucks.

But fluff wise they have -always- intrested me more than most anything else marine wise has. Only the Salamanders, and Nurgle rines beat that out. Khorne used to be... but something about khorne just makes me go "meh. thats not really chaos"

Mozzamanx
12-02-2007, 19:58
Hmm, thanks for the feedback all. Also, I wasnt trying to say 'OMG they are teh suckzorx', but that I feel that GW really didnt make them feel Tzeentchy enough and left out loads of great opportunities for them in terms of units/abilities.

lord_blackfang
12-02-2007, 20:29
Are they shooty? or are they supposed to be up close? and do they suck or not? I know with as little as info as I have on chaos in game wise my opinion sucks.


They suck. But with a lot of effort they can be made to work. Let's do a list, shall we?

1) Heavy weapons only on vehicles. This means that you have to spend a lot of points on fragile Predators and Dreadnoughts in order to take down enemy vehicles.

2) Slow. Very slow. You can choose between buying Deathtrap-pattern Rhinos or trying to make it to the objective at an average speed of 4.5" per turn. Coupled with the fact that a very clumsy butcher could count the number of scoring units you can fit in 1500 pts on one hand, you can see that they do not lend themselves well to objective-based missions.

3) Expensive. As if having to spend all those points on Heavy Support and Transports wasn't enough, your basic trooper costs 24 points. For what? A move-and-fire bolter with two wounds. You'd be far, far better off with the equivalent number of regular Marines.

4) Insta-kill. You pay through the nose for that extra wound only to have it ignored by almost everything except basic rifles. A single on-traget ordnance blast is likely to wipe out 25% of your infantry.

5) Psychic Powers. These effectively replace squad-based heavy and special weapons. Except that you can only have one per unit, it costs twice as much as a comparable weapon, does less and has a 33% chance of being shut down by a Librarian hiding in the corner of the table some where. Not that you'd have much chance of killing him even if he wasn't hiding.

6) Low Offensive Power. Even if you manage to make it to where you need to be, you'll find it difficult to actually do anything. People say massed bolters are good, and they are. The problem is, you don't HAVE massed bolters. You'll be lucky to fit 30 of them in 1500 pts. The only one doing any real damage is the Sorcerer with Wind of Chaos - a power available to any Chaos army - and power fist.

7) Power fists. And I mean power fists on both sides. With their shooting being so ineffective, many Thousand Sons players prefer to equip their Sorcerers for melee and duke it out in close combat. An army that's supposed to be shooty is forced to rush into combat if it wants to deal any real damage. The game becomes a slugging match with the Thousand Sons player hoping that his Sorcerer can fist enough of the enemy before he loses his 16 ablative wounds. Of course, those 24-pt models go down just as fast anyone else against enemy power fists.

To sum up: Slow, expensive, inflexible, ineffective and overpriced.

Captain Micha
12-02-2007, 21:17
Suddenly I find myself not fearing a thousand sons list that I have to square off against.. .minus... I play Tau.. wait. they are -that- slow? that the only speed option they have is rhinos? what about deep strike can they do that? cause if it is just rhinos... and no deep strike bring it on. *L*

Hadhfang
12-02-2007, 21:22
To be honest, I don't think of my psycic power as psycic powers, I thin of them as extra goodness that are only nullified by some enemies-remember, We can still take normal chaos powers, and we don't get attacked by big nasty creatures if we choose to use our psycic powers.

We can shoot a full 24" after moving, and I'm pretty sure we can charge into combat after shooting as well (don't quote me on that though)

lord_blackfang
12-02-2007, 21:42
Suddenly I find myself not fearing a thousand sons list that I have to square off against.. .minus... I play Tau.. wait. they are -that- slow? that the only speed option they have is rhinos? what about deep strike can they do that? cause if it is just rhinos... and no deep strike bring it on. *L*

Their Terminators can, of course, Deep Strike. There's also daemon summoning. But everything else crawls.

Captain Micha
12-02-2007, 21:48
I think I will just have to go skimmer crazy then... *sigh.*just like space marines.... lol. then again... there are not too many things that I do not go skimmer crazy against

ReDavide
12-02-2007, 22:18
Except that you can only have one per unit, it costs twice as much as a comparable weapon, does less and has a 33% chance of being shut down by a Librarian hiding in the corner of the table some where.


That's the intuitive statistic, but psychic hoods are even more powerful than that.
You've got a 1/6 chance of rolling the same, a 5/12 chance of rolling lower, and a 5/12 chance of rolling higher.
So that librarian's chance of suffocating each power is almost half (42%). :(

zendral
12-02-2007, 23:34
I agree greatly with Reinnon. The rubrics being slow is perfectly reasonable with the upside of having an extra wound. Once again though, we do not fit our fluff. When I play thousand sons I feel like I'm playing a shooty khorne army with extra wounds. The fluff describes our tactica as being sucky in close combat(devestated by space puppies in heresy) and constanly using guile to trick our opponents. With the current rules, one can try its best to do such things, but it mostly just ends up being a race to tie the enemy in close combat and beat them at mid-range shooting.

I read a couple of comments about how "special" our offensive psy powers are. In the general sense they are alright, but did you ever have your only meltagun/lascannon/plasmagun get canceled by a psychic hood? Once again, I beleive we need our powers "upped" and I would be more than happy to pay the points to do so. More trickery stuff, and maybe a bigger list of powers, some powers can only be taken by HQ's and the rest(supportive) can go to the rubric leading sorcerors.

Darloc
13-02-2007, 00:04
Yeah tzench sucks compare to other cult. Lord Blackfang made a good description of it, very frustrating to play ("ok guys almost there" *rolls* "damn 3 inches, ok almost there") and lack completly the tzench feeling of the fluff.
Ok where am I deceptive? ah ok I shoot well and I move slowly, what's up with psychic power? cool I shoot more! Very cunning indeed.
We need some more power for our sorcerers, we suposed to master magic and we paid the price for it!
If we don't get support fine, give us something in return, why not some power that confuse a unit? Roll a dice, the unit wanders, dream or shoot his friend.
Or give us some teleporting power, some magic smoke covering our units... Give us something different than BoC!
Why a libririan can cancel our power so easly? We are suposed to be better than them at this...
Rubric are almost fine, maybe less point or some little more option, like the aspirant being able to try to make his rubrics move normaly.
I hope the next codex chaos will give us something, I don't see why playing TS now, to frustrating.

Reinnon
13-02-2007, 00:16
I see what you mean, thousand sons just suffer far too much against shooting armies.... makes for a fairly boring game.

zendral
13-02-2007, 00:21
ya know...something that kinda knocked me down when the sisters codex came out was the powers they had( I mean the witch's themselves). A witch hunter adversary can take a guy that can use a power called "puppet dance". Made me think....yeah...that would be perfect for sons. WTH?

Rioghan Murchadha
13-02-2007, 01:37
ya know...something that kinda knocked me down when the sisters codex came out was the powers they had( I mean the witch's themselves). A witch hunter adversary can take a guy that can use a power called "puppet dance". Made me think....yeah...that would be perfect for sons. WTH?

the other depressing thing is when you run 1k sons against sisters, and find out that they can cancel all your happy psychic guns on a 5 or 6... any squad with the adepta sororitas special rule.. yay.. My primary opponent runs an all sisters army..

The psychic powers are an absolute joke. They're generally just identical or weaker versions of heavy weapons. The only one that is really that good is wind of chaos, which isn't even tzeentch specific, but try getting close enough with an asp champ in a rubric squad.. :p BoC is nothing more than a weaker lascannon.

Ultimately, I'd like some powers that don't replace shooting. As it stands, there is no point in giving a sorcerer a pistol except for the extra attack in CC, since you can't use most psy powers AND shoot in the same turn. Might as well just give him 2 CC weapons.

TheWarSmith
13-02-2007, 02:24
Hmm, thanks for the feedback all. Also, I wasnt trying to say 'OMG they are teh suckzorx', but that I feel that GW really didnt make them feel Tzeentchy enough and left out loads of great opportunities for them in terms of units/abilities.

EXACTLY!!!

Murphey
13-02-2007, 02:48
Yeah, one of the biggest weaknesses to pure 1k sons is anti-psychic anything.

I played against a fair number of thousand sons, and one thing that pretty much just countered them was the collar of Khorne.

Flamers trying to burn ya? Its ok, its nullified on a 2+. Bolt of change? Dont worry, 2+ to ignore, 5+ invuln, 4+ feel no pain, youll be fine.

I think the Tzeetch models are GREAT assets to a chaos army, but I think pure 1ksons has alot less viable options than it should.

Winimperial
13-02-2007, 03:13
Yeah I would agree Tzeentch is screwed up. I would blame that on Pete Haines seeing as how they play completly contrary to their fluff...

Ironhand
13-02-2007, 04:05
I don't know who to blame, but I agree that the 1K Sons currently play completely opposite of what their fluff says they should be, and Tzeentch psychic powers desperately need an overhaul/upgrade.

Alsiaie
13-02-2007, 04:58
They suck. But with a lot of effort they can be made to work. Let's do a list, shall we?

1) Heavy weapons only on vehicles. This means that you have to spend a lot of points on fragile Predators and Dreadnoughts in order to take down enemy vehicles.

2) Slow. Very slow. You can choose between buying Deathtrap-pattern Rhinos or trying to make it to the objective at an average speed of 4.5" per turn. Coupled with the fact that a very clumsy butcher could count the number of scoring units you can fit in 1500 pts on one hand, you can see that they do not lend themselves well to objective-based missions.

3) Expensive. As if having to spend all those points on Heavy Support and Transports wasn't enough, your basic trooper costs 24 points. For what? A move-and-fire bolter with two wounds. You'd be far, far better off with the equivalent number of regular Marines.

4) Insta-kill. You pay through the nose for that extra wound only to have it ignored by almost everything except basic rifles. A single on-traget ordnance blast is likely to wipe out 25% of your infantry.

5) Psychic Powers. These effectively replace squad-based heavy and special weapons. Except that you can only have one per unit, it costs twice as much as a comparable weapon, does less and has a 33% chance of being shut down by a Librarian hiding in the corner of the table some where. Not that you'd have much chance of killing him even if he wasn't hiding.

6) Low Offensive Power. Even if you manage to make it to where you need to be, you'll find it difficult to actually do anything. People say massed bolters are good, and they are. The problem is, you don't HAVE massed bolters. You'll be lucky to fit 30 of them in 1500 pts. The only one doing any real damage is the Sorcerer with Wind of Chaos - a power available to any Chaos army - and power fist.

7) Power fists. And I mean power fists on both sides. With their shooting being so ineffective, many Thousand Sons players prefer to equip their Sorcerers for melee and duke it out in close combat. An army that's supposed to be shooty is forced to rush into combat if it wants to deal any real damage. The game becomes a slugging match with the Thousand Sons player hoping that his Sorcerer can fist enough of the enemy before he loses his 16 ablative wounds. Of course, those 24-pt models go down just as fast anyone else against enemy power fists.

To sum up: Slow, expensive, inflexible, ineffective and overpriced.

Not everyone plays to win and Tsons can't always be judged with mathammer or competitiveness. Most Tson players know this. They are an underrated army, but most people who do play tsons have done so for a very long time based on the spirit of the game and their fluff. And the fact you can't really rules lawyer them. Think of them as a psychic hood against jackasses who like to ruin the game of army men. :)

lord_blackfang
13-02-2007, 11:01
Not everyone plays to win and Tsons can't always be judged with mathammer or competitiveness.

Everybody plays to win. Not everyone plays to win at all costs, but nobody actually plays to lose.


Most Tson players know this. They are an underrated army, but most people who do play tsons have done so for a very long time based on the spirit of the game and their fluff. And the fact you can't really rules lawyer them. Think of them as a psychic hood against jackasses who like to ruin the game of army men. :)

They were my main army for about 2 years until I got fed up with the constant uphill struggle. So fed up, in fact, that all my armies after that were of the "fast and fragile" variety.

It's funny that you would mention spirit of the game and fluff as this is the Sons' major weak point. They suck at objective missions but are quite good at "kill-em-all" since it's nigh impossible to wipe them out. And their actual playing style is totally different from what the fluff implies.

Kriegschmidt
13-02-2007, 16:12
It's funny that you would mention spirit of the game and fluff as this is the Sons' major weak point. They suck at objective missions but are quite good at "kill-em-all" since it's nigh impossible to wipe them out. And their actual playing style is totally different from what the fluff implies.

Blackfang, I agree with your summary of the army and it matches the conclusions I came to and tactics I took on after lots of practice. BUT... I hate just complaining about rules/armies, since until a new codex comes out, there's little we can do about it except try to make it work.

SO.... Look at it this way:

1) We move slowly
2) We lack long-range fire without blurring the distinctive identity of the army (defilers?? ordnance in an army of wizards??)
3) We lack the numbers to be an effective assault army

All these factors mean that we are an army which is largely ineffective at brutal warfare, which matches the fluff (hence SW mashing us to bits while we were reading).

So what's the solution? You play according to the fluff. In a game, you avoid direct combat where possible and use manipulative tactics. You lure precious units into areas where you can snuff them out ("they just went round that corner and disappeared sarge!"). You force your opponent to come to you where possible, then punish him when he does. It's difficult but basically you play like you would play chess. You create a framework where your opponent has to do what you want him to do because you've just planned everything so damn well.

Believe me, it's hard but it works. I've beaten my mate's armoured company on more than one occasion with my TSons and that was without any predators, defilers or landraiders and with only either one or two dreadnoughts.

But I look forward to the new codex giving my aching brain a rest.... :D

Darloc
13-02-2007, 16:22
The problem Kriegschmidt is that at the moment you can't play as Tzeentch should.
You say that you should lure your openent, sure tell him to come to close range against you, if he is that stupid you don't need any of this to beat him. How you play manipulative if most of your army will move so slowy that he will see you coming from far!
What I will do against a TS army is stay mobile and try to take them out from far. They are slow, so luring an enemy with them is not easy, it might leave you in the open.
No the real problem is that we need some new psychic powers, units that reflect the way Tzeentch would play with the mind of their enemy. Look over to khorne and nurgle, they reflect better their gods than we do at the moment. All we get is more shooty from our wargear, where is the deception?
Sure you can have a lot of sorcerer but unless you want an army of 2 squads it's not viable.
TS at the moment don't reflect the fluff far from it.

Kriegschmidt
13-02-2007, 16:36
@Darloc

*pats knee* Come over here and sit on Father's knee and I'll tell you....

You're partly right in that it is hard to play by the Fluff. The point I'm making though is that the big question is: "how do we get the most out of TSons armies until 2008(?) when their new book of tricks comes out?"

Playing manipulatively? Plan how you're going to win before you even start playing. Sun Tzu said a good general seeks victory before seeking battle. I don't believe this cr*p about "a plan rarely survives contact with the enemy". I would say "a quickly-thought-out plan rarely survives... etc." Control the deployment. For example, work out which of your units he'll want to take out first and deploy them in such a way that he'll be able to do so but it'll take him just enough time and effort that by the time he sees what you're really going to do he won't be able to counter it.

A good habit to get into is to try and win a game with only about 80% of your army. It's like: if you reckon you could physically fight off someone your own size, try fighting off 5 of them, armed only with a stick - I guarantee you'll fight a lot harder and more efficiently than 1 on 1.

Tzeentch is all about long-term planning, trickery and indiscernible goals. If what I'm saying isn't the same thing, then I must be on the wrong medication.

P.S. You can probably tell that I do REALLY badly at games where there's a strict time limit....:eek:

Reinnon
13-02-2007, 16:41
your whole trickery argument can apply to 90% of marine armies, not just to thousand sons, theres nothing special about the sons in your tactics.

i could do the same thing with a space wolf army, i could even do it with a blood angel army..... wheres the unique-ness?

Kriegschmidt
13-02-2007, 16:49
@Reinnon

You're absolutely 100% right and if you read my posts you'll see that I am not claiming any "unique-ness" for the TSons but rather am proposing a way to get the most out of them using the current format.

ReDavide
13-02-2007, 17:16
Think of them as a psychic hood against jackasses who like to ruin the game of army men.
Sigged.


All these factors mean that we are an army which is largely ineffective at brutal warfare, which matches the fluff (hence SW mashing us to bits while we were reading).

Agreed. Whenever I'm feeling down about my army, I tell myself, "don't worry dying horribly is fluffy for the Thousand Sons."

Darloc
13-02-2007, 17:24
@Kriegschmidt

Agreed but as Reinnon raised it, nothing special about TS here. I think the problem is that we don't get enough tools to do it. As I says before the list doesn't show any real deceptive, powerfull magic, far from it.
We should get the means to do what you said a bite more easily but not on a plate. Meaning that if, as you said, you plan very well your tactics and you use psychic power at the right time then you can trick your openent into making a fatal mistake. At the moment you could do it but not in a way very different from another army.
What I would like for the TS is to have this feeling: if you mastered them you can really pull something that will make your opennent says "Well I did not see this one coming". This would be very Tzeenchy ;).

zendral
13-02-2007, 19:29
@Kriegschmidt

Yeah, I try my best to play toward the fluff as well. Guile, trickery, distractions, mind games. That is the way to do it. But I cannot agree with what you said about avoiding close combat. In the current situation, I beleive it is fluffy to take any advantage given and to decieve the opponent. Why? How? By initiating close combat! There are still quite a few opponents that unwittingly beleive that thousand sons perform poorly in close combat. One of the best things to do is push that feeling should they really beleive it.

Sometimes I wonder if GW realised that it is quite easy (sometimes) for a thousand son army to outperform world eaters in close combat.

Alsiaie
13-02-2007, 23:35
Everybody plays to win. Not everyone plays to win at all costs, but nobody actually plays to lose.

I play to roll dice and cuss at them and my friends. :)


They were my main army for about 2 years until I got fed up with the constant uphill struggle. So fed up, in fact, that all my armies after that were of the "fast and fragile" variety.

I hear ya! Codex creep for the loss.


It's funny that you would mention spirit of the game and fluff as this is the Sons' major weak point. They suck at objective missions but are quite good at "kill-em-all" since it's nigh impossible to wipe them out. And their actual playing style is totally different from what the fluff implies.

When I mean fluff I mean backstory, not game mechanics. I play them just because I love Tsons in general and I really don't care how game mechanics reflect it. It's almost like a treadhead who's obsessed with IG just because they're IG. But don't get me wrong, I pray every day that GW releases separate codecies for each chaos god. Tsons will have their day, just wait.

Kriegschmidt
14-02-2007, 10:42
@Darloc

I agree entirely. I don't want to see a revised codex full of fearsome beams of energy that tear people to bits, rather "tricks" that create smokescreens, deceive your opponent, etc.

Rather like what the Eldar powers do (less offensive, more about affecting those around you) but of course much more devious and directed at making your foe rub his eyes a lot.

@zendral

I agree with you too in part. I mean, lets not beat about the bush - 40k is about killing people/things/animated scrap. I always take a flying daemon prince, screamers and a Lord of Change (and often spined beast from Forge World) and set up my squads with Rhinos, Wind of Chaos and power fists, so they are very much close-range and assault-based. However, I always keep the assault factor as that much-referred-to scalpel, using guile and planning as first approach. As someone said, self-defence is about avoiding violence. The last resort is violence and if it gets to that stage, you make sure you hit first and hit hard and don't stop until the situation is neutralised.

omricon
14-02-2007, 13:28
1k sons is more chess like because:
1. Elite units (including troops choices) makes deployment critical as unlike a lot of other armies they get almost full choice. (IG for example has to deploy itself in almost every available bit of space in the deployment zone). So your entire army can be behind terrain for example and you can pick the second turn to grab that objective in the last turn? tricky tzentch and unexpected. Easy to do if you only deploy three units on the board.
2. They rely heavily on hidden units, squads in rhinos (whats in there?) summoned demons and GD's, DSing Termies etc. Yes I know you can make other armies like this but if you do then it proves my point that you have to use them trickily to win.
3. Unexpected things happen or at least wierd. So for example they get to move and fire 24 inches, that can force an opponent to move forward. They can rapid fire and then assault, which does more damage to a unit than the opponent may have predicted or allowed for. Their units are almost impossible to wipe out in one go which is difficult for an opponent who planned such for a closing unit.

Kriegschmidt
14-02-2007, 14:35
@omricon

I'm not really sure how choosing where to deploy, hidden units, unexpected abilities and unit resilience makes playing TSons like playing chess but granted you made some interesting points.

What's quite interesting is to make a TSons "godzilla" army (although I hate the phrase "godzilla nids" - it sums up pointless resentment of army selection). Grab yourself a daemon prince (stature of course). Grab yourself a Lord of Change. Grab yourself or make yourself three giant spawns and 3 spined beasts (all from Imperial Armour Update 2006), add your Rubric marines and sorcerors and you have an instant monster army with magic.

Personally I go for the flying daemon prince, the Lord of Change, two giant spawns and 1 spined beast with daemonic speed. The prince, LoC, beast and some screamers all add a lot of speed to my army. Furthermore, at little more than the points of a Rhino, giant spawns are great for putting with dreadnoughts or daemon princes. To me, it fits with three key things: 1) Tzeentch liberally dishing out mutations, 2) the TSons' interest in all things magical and sorcerous and 3) the overall "unnatural" feel of a TSons army.

omricon
14-02-2007, 15:39
thats an interesting idea, I guess I prefer to keep things as 1k sons -y as possible by choosing 'exclusive' 1k sons choices.


@omricon

I'm not really sure how choosing where to deploy, hidden units, unexpected abilities and unit resilience makes playing TSons like playing chess but granted you made some interesting points.



Not perhaps chess like but definitely very planned. Those hidden units and abilities can be used to make your opponent do something he thinks will work and then doesnt because of something you pull out, for example several units converging on a lone rubric unit and then a lord of change bursts out and eats them all.

Deployment means you can create the scenario you need so you could put all your troops down one flank or use terrain to force your opponent to move i certain ways. Most particularly with few units, plenty of unit denial can be practiced, so making sure half your opponents units arent able to shot for half the game.

Resilience can just be filed under unexpected, (ie your opponent ALWAYS kills any other normal SM or CSM squad with that much firepower and now you are mulching through his squads in CC)

Kriegschmidt
14-02-2007, 16:19
You'll like this:

I was playing against my treadhead IG-playing friend with my TSons and he had included a unit of Grey Knights marines. He kept them in reserve but obviously they are an assault unit so I knew he was going to want to get stuck in with them. Key points: 1) it was a victory points game and 2) he didn't take his basilisk (i.e. no indirect fire!)

SO, I hid my entire force behind a large ruin and waited. When his grey knights arrived, he tried to deep-strike them into the ruin so that on the following turn he could move them through and charge into me. Big mistake. I moved Ahriman and a couple of sorceror-led squads into the ruin, turned two of the GKs into spawns (very satisfying), killed five more with wind of chaos and murdered the remaining one in assault. I only lost one wound on each of the two squads and scuttled back behind the ruin in my next turn.

Victory to me and the GKs are back on his shelf....

ShadowKitana
14-02-2007, 16:34
Do not Grey Knight have a psychic defence or something?

Kriegschmidt
14-02-2007, 17:02
Do not Grey Knight have a psychic defence or something?

Yes - "duck"

Rioghan Murchadha
14-02-2007, 17:34
Do not Grey Knight have a psychic defence or something?

they do, and ironically it works against wind of chaos. But not BoC. It is only effective against powers that require a test. The regular chaos powers require a test but 1ksons automatically pass it. The tzeentch specific powers don't actually say anwhere that they require a psychic test.

ShadowKitana
14-02-2007, 19:59
they do, and ironically it works against wind of chaos. But not BoC. It is only effective against powers that require a test. The regular chaos powers require a test but 1ksons automatically pass it. The tzeentch specific powers don't actually say anwhere that they require a psychic test.

Hu? Wait... hu? How...wait...

*looks at codex*
Ok, that can not be right... can it? If anyone can confirm... *prepairs happy dance of joy*[dice0]

Edit: Whohoo, a sign of Tzeentch. The dice give the sacred number, this must be a positive sign that the above is indeed true.

ReDavide
14-02-2007, 20:03
If a special weapon's armory entry never happens to mention that it needs a to-hit roll (Sonic Blasters for instance), do you assume it hits automatically? No, because people commonly accept that they follow the normal shooting rules except where their special rules say they don't.

The same applies to psychic powers. The default state for a psychic power is to require a test (BGB pg. 52, 3rd paragraph under Psychic Powers). Therefore all psychic powers require tests unless their text specifically says that they don't.
BoC then, since its entry is silent about the topic, requires a test. That test will be auto-passed, but it's still nullifiable.

The fact that the other chaos psychic powers redundantly say to take a test doesn't negate the base BGB requirement.

ShadowKitana
14-02-2007, 20:06
*puts happy joy dance supplies away*

But, but the sign from Tzeentch, surely it was a good omen of the... truth... deceitful son-of-a...

Rioghan Murchadha
14-02-2007, 21:45
If a special weapon's armory entry never happens to mention that it needs a to-hit roll (Sonic Blasters for instance), do you assume it hits automatically? No, because people commonly accept that they follow the normal shooting rules except where their special rules say they don't.

The same applies to psychic powers. The default state for a psychic power is to require a test (BGB pg. 52, 3rd paragraph under Psychic Powers). Therefore all psychic powers require tests unless their text specifically says that they don't.
BoC then, since its entry is silent about the topic, requires a test. That test will be auto-passed, but it's still nullifiable.

The fact that the other chaos psychic powers redundantly say to take a test doesn't negate the base BGB requirement.

An interesting concept, but that paragraph talks about psykers not sorcerers! :p

Besides.. for precedent, look at the minor powers list. All Nurgle, and all but 1 Slannesh minor powers require tests. not a single one of the tzeentch ones do. Not to mention, why is there no continuity within the chaos codex re: psychic powers? Why do ALL the generic powers go out of the way to state that they require a psychic test to be passed, and none of the tzeentch specific ones mention it?

Ironically, I didn't even think this up myself. My regular opponent who plays Sisters and Grey knights mentioned it.

Besides, a codex takes precedence over the BGB army rules wise.

ReDavide
14-02-2007, 22:49
An interesting concept, but that paragraph talks about psykers not sorcerers! :pChaos codex, page 12: "[Psychic Powers] are used following the rules in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook."
Sorcerors' psychic powers are used just like regular psykers' are.


Besides.. for precedent, look at the minor powers list. All Nurgle, and all but 1 Slannesh minor powers require tests. not a single one of the tzeentch ones do.Ah, but there's the difference. The Tzeentch minor powers all say outright that they require no psychic test to use. The Tzeentch major powers don't.


Why do ALL the generic powers go out of the way to state that they require a psychic test to be passed, and none of the tzeentch specific ones mention it?I might as well ask why the Tzeentch minor powers go out of their way to say that no test is required, while the major ones never say that?


Besides, a codex takes precedence over the BGB army rules wise. This is absolutely correct. Problem is, there is no rule in the codex telling you to disregard the BGB when it comes to psychic tests for the Tzeentch major powers. Your argument relies on the authors not reminding you a second time that the powers use the BGB rules (they already reminded you once on page 12 of the codex.)

It is perfectly understandable that they wouldn't repeat themselves over and over when talking about powers only usable by sorcerors who auto-pass tests. This doesn't mean that the powers suddenly need no test at all after they have already told you in both the BGB and the codex that they do require tests.

zendral
14-02-2007, 23:18
And it is for this reason I hate going by RAW. Especially with the chaos codex. If anyone has not noticed another example is the current chaos teleport homer. It uses the classic rules of deep strike and not the current. I have even argued with people that it uses the current rules like from the space marine codex, but due to RAW the teleport homer no longer works because there is nothing to say it uses any new set of rules...or even works with the current deep strike rules. Yeah....kinda fudged up.

ReDavide
15-02-2007, 04:52
If you play against people who actually argue that chaos teleport homers don't function, this probably won't be convincing to them.

But for your own comfort, Pete Haines did address the issue in the old online FAQs, archived here:
http://www.ageofstrife.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=244


> #2 - Should the rules for teleport homers from Space Marine codex replace the rules for teleport homers in all other codexes (i.e. Daemonhunters, Chaos)

Yes

zendral
15-02-2007, 05:07
Thank you. I geuss my point is that common sense seems to have gone out the window. Some people love to argue things that should be apparant. And it is because of this that I (sometimes) can sympathize with GW when making codex's. Some mistakes are dumb, but there are times when they think something is so obvious that it cannot be misenterpreted. There is always someone that twists it in some maniacle way.

It scares me because people that argue over stupid rule mistakes like the chaos teleport homer, have driving licenses and are out on the road.

Kriegschmidt
15-02-2007, 09:13
Hold on. I refuse to watch this spiral into a pedantic argument by people who want to over-complicate things to their own advantage.

It clearly states in the book of Tzeentch in C:CSM that sorcerors with the Mark of Tzeentch automatically pass psychic tests. A psychic test is simply a dice roll involving 2D6. In other words, Tzeentch sorcerors DON'T TAKE THEM.

I wish people would stop trying to find "Easter eggs" by twisting very simple rules.

Iracundus
15-02-2007, 12:40
Actually as written there is a difference between not taking a test period, and auto-passing a test, particularly in regard to the eligibility of psychic hoods to nullify the power. Probably not intended by GW but it's just another example of GW leaving sloppy holes wide enough for a truck.

An analogy for those who might have trouble grasping the difference: Compare the situation to a real paper examination/test. A psychic power not needing a test is like having a waiver for the test and not having to even show up at the test location. Auto-passing the test however means one can pass no matter what rubbish one writes on the test paper, but with the minimal requirement of showing up and actually getting a test paper. The result for most situations is effectively the same. However something like a traffic jam blocking one's journey to the test location (ie: psychic hood in the analogy) affects the latter situation but not the former.

Reinnon
15-02-2007, 12:53
Hold on. I refuse to watch this spiral into a pedantic argument by people who want to over-complicate things to their own advantage.

It clearly states in the book of Tzeentch in C:CSM that sorcerors with the Mark of Tzeentch automatically pass psychic tests. A psychic test is simply a dice roll involving 2D6. In other words, Tzeentch sorcerors DON'T TAKE THEM.

I wish people would stop trying to find "Easter eggs" by twisting very simple rules.

wrong, it says you "automatically pass them"

you still take the test, you just don't need to roll the dice

HughbertofKhorne
15-02-2007, 13:51
Lets face it though Flamers of tzeentch rock, Thousand sons can get 2 wound terminators for something like 42 points a piece (still automata) the items are great and the psychic powers a fine. You have sorcerers running around with multi meltas for the love of the dark gods!!!!

not to mention that your demonic units can have a psychic heavy bolter on every model. Its a great army, but yeah I would sticka Dred or two in their... if only because the forge world ones are beautiful models *drools/dreams*

Reinnon
15-02-2007, 14:20
Lets face it though Flamers of tzeentch rock, Thousand sons can get 2 wound terminators for something like 42 points a piece (still automata) the items are great and the psychic powers a fine. You have sorcerers running around with multi meltas for the love of the dark gods!!!!

not to mention that your demonic units can have a psychic heavy bolter on every model. Its a great army, but yeah I would sticka Dred or two in their... if only because the forge world ones are beautiful models *drools/dreams*

name one good item outside of thrall wizards :)

BoC = utterly useless within a rubric squad, an anti tank weapon in an squad whose purpose is to take down infentry for 30 points!? no thanks, i'd rather go for GoC/WoC

yes, rubric termies do rock, but as i mentioned eariler....

the rubrics are not the problem within the list, its the rest of the army thats lacking.

Flamers = far too fragile to be used within a 1500 point game, they cost the same as a riubric yet incrediblly easy to destroy... the least we mention horros the better

HughbertofKhorne
15-02-2007, 14:24
pffffffffft... all the cult armies are lacking thats the idea of being so specialized. Tzeentch have it good, and Famers are not fragile with two wounds.

Reinnon
15-02-2007, 14:41
i suggest you play with flamers, clearly my years of experience pale in comparision to your wisdom, toughness 3 deamons with a 5+ save even if they do have 2 wounds are not that hard to take down, if you have trouble you need to seriously reconsider your army list.

i'm not talking about more units choices, i'm talking about giving us realistic options outside of rubrics.

take your army, World Eaters (yes, i actually bothered to check your profile), your army follows to the fluff pretty well, i.e an army of berserkers.

you have some shockingly effective troops to do this, such as chain axe equipped marines, bloodletters, bikers and fantastic deamon princes, your army can be played to the fluff pretty well.

Thousand Sons only have 1 truly effective troops choice, the rubric squad and rubric terminators... those are the only 2 units that can consistany do well against an enemy, and that is by playing largely against the fluff of the army.

Tzeentch only "have it good" when it comes to rubric marines, i would love to take Chosen, possessed, deamons in my army.... i don't want a jack of all trades army..... i want to play a thousand son army as its depicted in the fluff, i.e. a strong cadre of rubric marines supported by a vast number of sorcerers, which atm just isn't viable.

HughbertofKhorne
15-02-2007, 15:09
Okay, dont start going on about years of playing I have over a decade of experience so dont try and pull rank cos thats plenty.

Talisman of Tzeentch is very handy for 5 point item of wargear, that 5 points wont really be missed and the -1 may well be handy.

Inferno bolts are great, a bolter with a blast marker? thats great and normally the sort of oponents a blast marker is usueful against have less than toughness four.

The bolt of change is good, but as it isnt quite a multi-melta it could do with dropping about 5-10 points, but its still worth taking.

The Blasted Standard is pants as its one use only, I'll concede that. needs to drop about 15-20 points to make it more reasonable.

The Bedlam staff is perfectly acceptable for its price, its handy against enemy HQ.

Now you're Troops arent that badly priced when you consider the two wounds and the slow and purposeful rule. I feel thats very in keeping to the fluff but these little benefits need to be paid for to maintain a semblance of balance, so while you will never field a collossal Tzeentch army based on sorcerers and rurbrics as the majority of the army, they do take and dish out a hell of lot of damage for their points. Give the sorcer the Bolt of Change and you have an effect anti-infantry and anti-tank squad, that while it may cost more than a land raider, could probably munch its way through a couple of those and remain battle worthy. Rubric Termies are just the same and for their points are great.

Now Daemons.
I believe chaos armies should always have plenty of these running round, especially Tzeentch armies, who's sentient members draw upon the warp more than anyone else.

Horrors have their place, moderate against infantry, mainly light to be fair but with the points and stat line they should be able to munch their way through Imperial guard, nide, even orks if backed up by a rubric squad to take th assult. (equip your sorcs for close combat, power fists or power weapons are cheapish for Aspiring Champions) If one horror pack cant do it. Send two.

Flamers are a little on the frail side with only a toughness of three, but the amount of shots they can throw down will whittle even the most powere armourd and invulnerable saved squads down 9 flamers is what?27 BS3 shots. and a troop choice? you can knock it, not even for the points they throw down.

Screamers, they're less than 20 points, they have daemonic flight, furious assault, hit and run, strength 5 initiative (both 6 on a charge) and WS 4.... thats is completely insane for the pointage... you could keep a sqaud tied up for a long time with this pack, even if you only assault every other turn and let your fire support squads take a pop in between the killage,

Possessed and Chosen.

Have been radically overpriced, but then with a Sorcerer in every unit are you going to miss them that much? possesed tend to fare poorly in most games anyway, and chosen are always going to be expensive. If you want a meat shield for your lord, bu another rubric squad and stick him in their. Possed really arent worth the bother, and arent keeping to fluff at all. Arihman created the rubric to stop that sort of thing happening after all. (okay mass mutation destroying the legion, but that has to come from somewhere and with the power mad Thousand sons its not hard to believe that every non psyker was giving themselves over to Daemons in exchange for magic)

As for vehicles. Well they work the same as for everyone else, bikes, and raptors would be expensive and of little value to the Thousand Sons. Obliterators would be cheesey and havocs redundant.

And sneaky tricks... well play with tactics for a start, but failing that Psychic Duel is very useful when coupled with the talisman. a -2 to an enemy psyker's LD is hardly battle winning, but has its uses. Reckoning of Tzeentch does exactly what it says on the tin and coupled with a BS 4 you can turn enemy swuads into a very fine red mist. And withering gaze, read it, its great, at 10 points you cant say anything against it really.

Now many of you have grumbled about not getting anything "tzeentchy" by way of tricksy powers. Well subtelty is lacking in the army this is true, but this is a war game and subtelty by its very definition is.... subtle. Those sort of machinations would be going on behind the scenes, hardly when the sorcerer has bolt shells, las bolts, and plasma blasts flyhing at him from all directions.

You have plenty to work with, I dont see what the problem is here.

Just think through your army selection with a bit more care.

Reinnon
15-02-2007, 18:08
Okay, dont start going on about years of playing I have over a decade of experience so dont try and pull rank cos thats plenty.

Talisman of Tzeentch is very handy for 5 point item of wargear, that 5 points wont really be missed and the -1 may well be handy.

Inferno bolts are great, a bolter with a blast marker? thats great and normally the sort of oponents a blast marker is usueful against have less than toughness four.

The bolt of change is good, but as it isnt quite a multi-melta it could do with dropping about 5-10 points, but its still worth taking.

The Blasted Standard is pants as its one use only, I'll concede that. needs to drop about 15-20 points to make it more reasonable.

The Bedlam staff is perfectly acceptable for its price, its handy against enemy HQ.

Now you're Troops arent that badly priced when you consider the two wounds and the slow and purposeful rule. I feel thats very in keeping to the fluff but these little benefits need to be paid for to maintain a semblance of balance, so while you will never field a collossal Tzeentch army based on sorcerers and rurbrics as the majority of the army, they do take and dish out a hell of lot of damage for their points. Give the sorcer the Bolt of Change and you have an effect anti-infantry and anti-tank squad, that while it may cost more than a land raider, could probably munch its way through a couple of those and remain battle worthy. Rubric Termies are just the same and for their points are great.

Now Daemons.
I believe chaos armies should always have plenty of these running round, especially Tzeentch armies, who's sentient members draw upon the warp more than anyone else.

Horrors have their place, moderate against infantry, mainly light to be fair but with the points and stat line they should be able to munch their way through Imperial guard, nide, even orks if backed up by a rubric squad to take th assult. (equip your sorcs for close combat, power fists or power weapons are cheapish for Aspiring Champions) If one horror pack cant do it. Send two.

Flamers are a little on the frail side with only a toughness of three, but the amount of shots they can throw down will whittle even the most powere armourd and invulnerable saved squads down 9 flamers is what?27 BS3 shots. and a troop choice? you can knock it, not even for the points they throw down.

Screamers, they're less than 20 points, they have daemonic flight, furious assault, hit and run, strength 5 initiative (both 6 on a charge) and WS 4.... thats is completely insane for the pointage... you could keep a sqaud tied up for a long time with this pack, even if you only assault every other turn and let your fire support squads take a pop in between the killage,

Possessed and Chosen.

Have been radically overpriced, but then with a Sorcerer in every unit are you going to miss them that much? possesed tend to fare poorly in most games anyway, and chosen are always going to be expensive. If you want a meat shield for your lord, bu another rubric squad and stick him in their. Possed really arent worth the bother, and arent keeping to fluff at all. Arihman created the rubric to stop that sort of thing happening after all. (okay mass mutation destroying the legion, but that has to come from somewhere and with the power mad Thousand sons its not hard to believe that every non psyker was giving themselves over to Daemons in exchange for magic)

As for vehicles. Well they work the same as for everyone else, bikes, and raptors would be expensive and of little value to the Thousand Sons. Obliterators would be cheesey and havocs redundant.

And sneaky tricks... well play with tactics for a start, but failing that Psychic Duel is very useful when coupled with the talisman. a -2 to an enemy psyker's LD is hardly battle winning, but has its uses. Reckoning of Tzeentch does exactly what it says on the tin and coupled with a BS 4 you can turn enemy swuads into a very fine red mist. And withering gaze, read it, its great, at 10 points you cant say anything against it really.

Now many of you have grumbled about not getting anything "tzeentchy" by way of tricksy powers. Well subtelty is lacking in the army this is true, but this is a war game and subtelty by its very definition is.... subtle. Those sort of machinations would be going on behind the scenes, hardly when the sorcerer has bolt shells, las bolts, and plasma blasts flyhing at him from all directions.

You have plenty to work with, I dont see what the problem is here.

Just think through your army selection with a bit more care.

we do not have plenty to work with, none of your points contradict what i said.... in fact you've largely agreed with what i said.

Items: ok, tailsmen is a fair item, but only of use against limited items, not all armies include psykers so that 5 points is often or not wasted.
Bedlam staff, dark blade and dread axe is much better value... heck even a powerfist is
Inferno bolts: a joke, seriously.... everyone who can take them can take a power, and its so easily countable by just spacing your men out.... total waste of points
Blasted Banner: One use, power fist and WoC is better in the long term for the same price.... unit with it will just be countered by the enemy

BoC: please.... i said it isn't worth taking in a unit of rubrics as it does little compared to GoC and WoC for the role of the rubric squad.... both WoC and GoC are simply better at taking down infentry

your comments on horrors: name 1 place for them.... name 1 use for them that can't be done far superior by a rubirc or flamer squad

Flamers: so, you agree with me.
yes, 27 shots is nice... but they will only get it once against a good player.
27 shots = a squad that costs 207 points, 207 points that is very unlikely to survive the battle (as after they get to shoot 99% of generals will either lock them in close combat or actually shoot them back), they are a 1 trick pony, allbeit a very nice trick the relability of the rubric squad (which costs only slightly more) always wins through, point for point a rubric is more worthwhile then a flamer.

Chosen and Possessed: so your argument is that just because Chosen and Possessed are generally overpriced that thousand sons shouldn't complain about them? right.... maybe chosen and possessed need to be looked at for all chaos armies? At least othjer legions can come up with vaguely cost effective squads.

Tanks: er.... i wasn't complaining about the tanks side of things, as chaos have bloody good heavy support, maybe i didn't make that clear

lack of trickery: this is the one point that i really question you.

minor powers: er.... 10 points for something thats only useful if you roll a 4.

tactics: please, now your treating me like an idiot

what do we have to represent our "illisions"? a minor power list that makes a grot seem grossly overpowered in comparision and a pinning spell that doesn't work on 90% of armies due to total lack of power of LD in 40K

withering gaze: but i want my rubrics to get into combat, and also 90% of the units that will be charging me are often either fearless or LD10, plus you might not always get it

ShadowKitana
15-02-2007, 18:13
Screamers, they're less than 20 points, they have daemonic flight, furious assault, hit and run, strength 5 initiative (both 6 on a charge) and WS 4.... thats is completely insane for the pointage... you could keep a sqaud tied up for a long time with this pack, even if you only assault every other turn and let your fire support squads take a pop in between the killage,


Screamers do not have Hit and Run. They have essentualy the same thing but they have to run at the end of combat. I still love them, along with Flamers.

HughbertofKhorne
15-02-2007, 18:16
Have you actually actually actually played with the army? or do your "years of experience" negate the need to stop talking rubbish and actually test it out. Rubrics are good, better when used with Daemons, and horrors, 2 wounds, 17 points daemonic flame, its a good unit to go alongside them.

If you did something more than whine about how hard done by you are then you and your "years of experience" might actually be able to make something competetive out of the army.

So far as I can tell if it isnt something L33t that can pwn Sayzs Mar33nz with a look then you're buggered.

most hobby stores run a beginners day on the weekends. pop down to one, you might actually learn a thing or two.

ReDavide
15-02-2007, 19:07
Hold on. I refuse to watch this spiral into a pedantic argument by people who want to over-complicate things to their own advantage.

It clearly states in the book of Tzeentch in C:CSM that sorcerors with the Mark of Tzeentch automatically pass psychic tests. A psychic test is simply a dice roll involving 2D6. In other words, Tzeentch sorcerors DON'T TAKE THEM.

I wish people would stop trying to find "Easter eggs" by twisting very simple rules.I agree with you about the easter eggs, but the difference between auto-passing tests and not taking tests is pretty well established, and not just by rules-twisting pedants.
And claiming we're trying to twist rules to our own advantage isn't too accurate considering that most of us are Thousand Sons players. ;)


Thousand sons can get 2 wound terminators for something like 42 points a piece...Rubric Termies are just the same [as power-armored rubrics] and for their points are great...

Inferno bolts are great...

Horrors... should be able to munch their way through Imperial guard, nide, even orks...

Flamers... the amount of shots they can throw down will whittle even the most powere armourd and invulnerable saved squads down 9 flamers is what?27 BS3 shots. and a troop choice? you can knock it, not even for the points they throw down...

Screamers... you could keep a sqaud tied up for a long time with this pack...

Possessed and Chosen... have been radically overpriced, but then with a Sorcerer in every unit are you going to miss them that much...Possed really arent worth the bother, and arent keeping to fluff at all. Arihman created the rubric to stop that sort of thing happening after all...

Psychic Duel is very useful when coupled with the talisman. a -2 to an enemy psyker's LD is hardly battle winning, but has its uses....Reckoning of Tzeentch does exactly what it says on the tin and coupled with a BS 4 you can turn enemy swuads into a very fine red mist...And withering gaze, read it, its great, at 10 points you cant say anything against it really...

bikes, and raptors would be expensive and of little value to the Thousand Sons. Obliterators would be cheesey and havocs redundant...
Re: Rubric Terminators - Rubric Terminators are very good at not getting killed, but aren't so hot at actually killing things themselves due to the lack of weapon upgrade options. They definitely have their uses, but they can't play the same role as power-armored rubrics. They lack transport options and are more expensive, meaning that you will have fewer scoring units on the table and will be able to target fewer enemy units each turn. The terminators make great anvils but very bad hammers.

Re: Inferno Bolts - When the army has a "reach close-combat or die horribly" slant to it, upgrades to weapons that can't fire&charge aren't very interesting. For close-range shooting we have much better options than inferno bolts.

Re: Horrors - Placing horrors within 12" of an imperial guard firing line is not something I would recommend. Lasguns may bounce off power armor but poke holes in daemonflesh just fine.

Re: Flamers - Flamers aren't bad, but demand that you protect them from return fire so much that they often become a liability. S6 instakills are difficult to avoid, and they evaporate when charged.

Re: Screamers - No, you can't ever keep a squad tied up with these guys, since they have to hit & run. It's that little special rule that kills them. Most daemons (and even our rubric squads!) can find relative safety in close combat. Screamers get one charge and then get slaughtered by enemy shooting. You technically can support them with a rubric squad by conducting a simultaneous charge and then letting the screamers hide behind the ensuing close combat, but then you get the same liability issues that flamers have - you're using a 275-point unit to keep a 135-point one from dying.
A lot of people like screamers as small objective-claimer units that just fly off & hide though.

Re: Possessed & Chosen - Yes, I miss them. It would be nice to have some variety in the armies of the God of Change. And the rubric was designed to stop mutation. Possession is different and just fine fluff-wise.

Re: Minor Powers - If you could use both major & minor powers in the same turn, Psychic Duel and Reckoning of Tzeentch would be useful. But as-is, your sorceror has to give up shooting that BoC or WoC in order to use them. Giving up that BoC or WoC in order to get ~4 extra bolter hits isn't exactly worthy of "fine red mist" status. And Withering Gaze? A power that depends on your opponent having superior close-combat abilities and choosing to do a certain act and which depends on him failing a leadership test is not a power that has much use.

Re: Bikes and Havocs - I'd cut off nine fingers to get access to either of these. Bikes would add tremendously to our tactical options even if their style might not fit into a lot of TS armies. And I fail to see how havocs would be redundant. What viable unit do we currently have that replaces them?


so while you will never field a collossal Tzeentch army based on sorcerers and rurbrics as the majority of the armyAre you joking? Rubric squads always take up at least 50% of my points, and my army setup isn't very unusual.

Reinnon
15-02-2007, 19:17
Have you actually actually actually played with the army? or do your "years of experience" negate the need to stop talking rubbish and actually test it out. Rubrics are good, better when used with Daemons, and horrors, 2 wounds, 17 points daemonic flame, its a good unit to go alongside them.

If you did something more than whine about how hard done by you are then you and your "years of experience" might actually be able to make something competetive out of the army.

So far as I can tell if it isnt something L33t that can pwn Sayzs Mar33nz with a look then you're buggered.

most hobby stores run a beginners day on the weekends. pop down to one, you might actually learn a thing or two.

now thats childish, have you ever actually played thousand sons?

You can't reply to an argument by just insulting your opponent, come up with counters to my arguments then

zendral
15-02-2007, 19:31
The "real" experienced thousand son players are not so much complaining about how competative they can be. No, if you read most posts, it mostly has to do with the fluff.

It would be nice to have a few tweeks on a couple of things, but the main point is change in overall playability.

How would you feel if you played a khorne army for years that excelled at shooting instead of rage and close combat, but still did well? If you notice, the son players are not complaining about winning...there mostly complaining about having fun and playing toward how the stories dictate. Did you read my comment earlier? We even excel (at times) at beating khorne in close combat. Okay....WTH is with that noise? (Where I live there are a few of khorne armies and I am about sick of playing them). The fluff dictates that we prefer to stay out of close combat and USE sorcery to initiate guile and trickery. Okay.

I have heard that comment about a million times. "Use tactics to deciet the opponent...its playing toward fluff". OKay......so can any other army...but can that army use sorcery? WE REALLY WANT TO PLAY TOWARD FLUFF, and fluff for us means psychic powers that uses illusion, the the deciever ability for necrons, or even puppet dance from the with hunter codex. Now that is fun...and fluffy.

Now, that is about the biggest desire for son players. As far as other fluff changes..... Rubrics are awesome hands down. But if we want to play toward fluff, it might make sense to dumb down close combat abilities. There are a few son players that realise this and would not mind going in that direction in order to change others. Another add-on would be special weapons. I have heard that in the next chaos codex, plague marines will be able to use heavy bolters. Makes sense, sense they love bolters in general and have a friggen picture of a plague marine holding one in the current codex. I would love to see thousand sons capable of taking melta guns and/or plasma guns. WHY? Cuz there not that dumb and purposeful...and theres a friggen picture of a thousand son holding a plasma gun right in the codex. I would cut off someone else's fingers just to have that....like ReDavide's.;)

Outstide of making the army more fun and not more or less competative (the main point here). Lets talk about horrors. Any son player that plays competatively never uses them. WHY? They have uses? not really. They are spendy, and there role can easily be replaces by flamers or rubrics. Why take something worse than something better for roughly the same points? What role do they have exactly? Some argue that there 2 wounds is great. That is about it. I would like to compare them to space marines. They got a WS of 2, T of 3, I of 2, and 1 attack. no real morale, easily to beat in close combat (even with 2 wounds), and a guardsman BS. more expensive than a space marine, but worse than a space marine even with a drop pod to make up for summoning. There only real use is abviously anti-infantry or cannon fodder. A bit too spendy to be cannon fodder, and there roll is better replaced by rubrics or flamers. All I(we) ask here is that GW do something fun with them to be more viable and popular....because I don't see horros flying off the shelves for 40k.

As a side note, I agree with everything that ReDavide and Reinnon just said.

Anyway...thats the 2 cents.

Reinnon
15-02-2007, 19:37
Zendral and Redavide effectivly said the main issues with the thousand son list

please note: i'm not bitching about the overall power of the list, as i've said countless times i'm happy with the current rules effectivness of the Rubric Squad.

ShadowKitana
15-02-2007, 20:04
I used Horrors once, when I had to field a 500 point army. But that is about it.

omricon
15-02-2007, 23:34
I agree with Reinon Redavid and the slightly more elusive yet usually correct and experienced zendral :) Looks like all the big guns from the thousand sons tactics thread are popping in here to post. Why dont you pop your head into the thousand sons tactica thread Hughbert? There is a reason we are all agreeding with each other and you might learn something instead of assuming a superior than thou attitude.

As an aside horrors are **** :) its a tarpit unit in an army whose very definition is tarpit! with enough terrain, flamers and screamers might be useful though, flamers because you position them to kill the squad they are firing without exposing themselves to another and screamers as a SUPPORT to a rubric combat (not the other way around!) and for objective. Oh and chasing Tau jetpack units :)

As an aside, zen, rei and redav, would you agree with my tactics post above? (how they play?)

Rioghan Murchadha
16-02-2007, 01:11
I would just like to take a moment to point out that I'm not a rules twisting pedant. (a regular pedant definitely ;)) I try to assume nothing about the rules, or pass any personal judgement calls regarding the 'spirit' of the rules. If it's so obvious by all these other sources, that psychic powers all require tests, then why would the authors of C:CSM go out of their way to point out under all the generic powers, that they most definitely require a test, and then conveniently leave that out of the Tzeentch powers? Are you telling me that they can't cut and paste stuff?

As I said, this was actually brought up by an opponent of mine who BENEFITS from being able to dispel my psychic powers, not by me. I went with it, because God only knows I have a hard enough time dealing with hard targets with just massed bolter fire. My army is pure Rubrics, with a squad of chosen sorcerers, all favoured size.

Edit: I'd also like to point out one thing.
C:CSM was written before both inquisitorial books. Both inquisition Ordos Millitant are IMMUNE to minor psychic powers completely. The Aegis rule under the Grey knights special rules states that they are immune to all powers that target grey knight squads AND require a psychic test. By your logic there are NO powers in the game that are not affected by this, as ALL the major powers of every deity require a test.

Note also that the Adepta Sororitas special rule is exempt from this 'having to pass a psychic test' clause.

I would also like to point out that the C:CSM book was written under the auspices of 3rd edition. If someone has their rule book from 3e handy, could they go back and please double check if there's a blanket rule that every power requires a test?

Edit again: After looking through the new eldar dex, the new warlock powers don't require tests, although I hesitate to use this as an example, being that it's still using 3rd and 4th edition codices as evidence against each other which doesn't really work.

Voodoo Boyz
16-02-2007, 01:40
You can say that Tzeench is screwed over, but look at it this way, it could be worse...

You could be stuck playing Orks, Kroot, or Grey Knights. :p

Rubric squads with Wind of Chaos make for some of the best Mechanized squads ever. They even make Sisters green with envy with what they can do coming out of a Rhino. Plus they're great with absorbing a charge with a PF on the Sorcerer.

No they're not as easy to play as regular Chaos or Marines, but they still have access to Heavy Support that makes Orks & Grey Knights green with envy.

Reinnon
16-02-2007, 02:27
No they're not as easy to play as regular Chaos or Marines, but they still have access to Heavy Support that makes Orks & Grey Knights green with envy.

pun intended? :)

zendral
16-02-2007, 04:06
As an aside, zen, rei and redav, would you agree with my tactics post above? (how they play?)

Indeed I would, nice description.



I agree with Reinon Redavid and the slightly more elusive yet usually correct and experienced zendral :) Looks like all the big guns from the thousand sons tactics thread are popping in here to post. Why dont you pop your head into the thousand sons tactica thread Hughbert? There is a reason we are all agreeding with each other and you might learn something instead of assuming a superior than thou attitude.

Wow didn't know I had such an elegant title;) . Agreed, I would like to think that Warseer is the home of some of the best Thousand son minds in the 40k world. It's like....40k CHEERS or something. "Where everyone knows your naaaame....":rolleyes: But seriously, its an awesome little community.

Rioghan Murchadha
16-02-2007, 04:40
You can say that Tzeench is screwed over, but look at it this way, it could be worse...

You could be stuck playing Orks, Kroot, or Grey Knights. :p

Rubric squads with Wind of Chaos make for some of the best Mechanized squads ever. They even make Sisters green with envy with what they can do coming out of a Rhino. Plus they're great with absorbing a charge with a PF on the Sorcerer.

No they're not as easy to play as regular Chaos or Marines, but they still have access to Heavy Support that makes Orks & Grey Knights green with envy.

Yeah.. WoC is awesome until your opponent rolls that 5-6 ;) at least against sisters or grey knights.. I don't run mechanized which is part of the problem.. (mind you I don't really expect to win much). My army is representative of Ahriman and his exiled cabal of sorcerers (the 9 chosen). It cleans up nicely in combat patrol with the smaller map and tighter terrain, but I have yet to win a full scale fight with that configuration.

Kriegschmidt
16-02-2007, 10:22
On the subject of horrors:

To me, the most obvious and advantageous use of horrors is staring us all in the face: they're there to keep flamers alive.

Example: a favoured unit of 9 flamers. You might get 27 shots but it won't be for very long. As they start dying, the squad's effectiveness will go down. SO, take 6 flamers and 3 horrors. You get 18 "assault-heavy-bolter" shots and you can take wounds on the horrors, guaranteeing you the full number of Doombolt shots for longer.

Remember, flamers are an upgrade for horrors. It's just like padding devastator squads out with bolter marines - they're there to die and keep their comrades alive for longer.

Hence, I always take horrors if I take flamers.

omricon
16-02-2007, 10:43
good point Krieg, depends on their use.

Kriegschmidt
16-02-2007, 11:06
good point Krieg, depends on their use.

Dying.

Seriously though, I tend not to use Tzeentch daemons most of the time, except for LoC, daemon prince, Forge World beasties. With precious few units in the first place, I don't like keeping any in reserve. I believe that this is born from me playing against the Imperial Guard a lot: the more units you keep in reserve, the more the deployed units get pounded by all those battle cannons, earthshakers, heavy weapons, etc...

Having said all this, my brother and a mate have both recently acquired the new Eldar codex and after a few play-tests are ecstatic. So I may be taking lots more flamers (with horrors) for sheer bansheepoppingability :evilgrin:

Reinnon
16-02-2007, 12:02
17 points for a meatshied is a damn expensive meatshield

Kriegschmidt
16-02-2007, 14:01
In the scope of a ThSons army, it's a cheap model. And besides, they're not a meatshield - they're not there to make your opponent go "Ooh, I'll shoot at those). Rather, they're there because your opponent is going to shoot at your flamer unit and these will simply increase the lifespan of the firing nucleus'.

On the subject of "using what we've got and overcoming lack of warlike-ness", I found that a handy tactic is to create "tank assassins". Take two lieutenants as your HQ, give them the Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt of Change and Terminator armour and nothing else. Then deep-strike them behind your enemy's tanks and unleash S8 blasts on the rear armour of those armoured monstrosities that you were previously struggling to pop. It's risky but if, like me, you don't like to lascannons in an army of sorcerors, it's one of your best bets for armour-destruction. I've beaten an armoured company using this tactic (combined with other tactics!), one army which is guaranteed to put the willies up any TSons general.

Obviously your lieutenants are then probably stuck in the thick of it with any nearby enemies suddenly very interested in them. BUT if your enemy turns his guns/head/claws on the lieutenants, it will give your more expensive rubric/sorceror squads more time to close in for that all-important eviscerating close attack. And in weighing up a 110 point lieutenant against a 250+ point squad there is no contest if you ask me.

Reinnon
16-02-2007, 15:00
a fair tactic with HQ, not my cup of tea for 2 reasons though:

1) unrealible, never trust a DS to go precisely where you want it, plus most armies tend to keep tanks to the rear (if they are anti tank) so the chance for scattering is high

2) its debatable if they are more useful then a stature lord, if they miss they might find a lascannon in their face

on horrors: 17 points if way to much for a meatshield even in a thousand son army, best way to keep flamers alive is to use smaller squads imo.

example: instead of 9 take 2 units of 5, means that in round of shooting they can take out a maximum of 5 flamers out of each squad.... seems to be the most effective means i've found.

Kriegschmidt
16-02-2007, 15:34
Yeah the statured lord is a good buy but can be risky on his own, which is why I normally take him with a Lord of Change and possibly a spined beast with Speed. These three fast monstrous creatures make a nice "speedwing".

Interesting idea with the 5-flamer-squads. I may try that out. I certainly rarely go for favoured marine squads, rather I go minimum size then give the sorceror 4 Thralls. Keeps the cost down but keeps the units fairly durable and adds a few cheap wounds.

I think something that is unique to the TSons and which is regularly overlooked is the Disc. One approach that works very well against MEQs is a Lord on a disc with master-crafted lightning claws and WoC. Especially with some daemonic gifts and if he flies behind a Rhino full of rubrics/sorcerors. He will demolish any MEQ unit he reaches, killing a load of them with Wind before chopping up the rest with the claws (and mutation!). He is expensive though, so should be reserved for fighting against MEQs (low model count).

ShadowKitana
16-02-2007, 17:33
I use a Statured Lord. Somehow he does manage to survive the battle (although battered and wounded) and people fear him as the "Flying Dreadnaught of Doom!" I usualy give him Gift of Chaos so that he can create help once he gets stuck in. This help out alot at a game once where he got stuck in against Guardsmen right in front of a Leman Russ. That took the scaryness out of that situation (spawing the Commisar and having him kill scores of Guardsmen was also a laugh)

zendral
16-02-2007, 19:15
ON the subject of horrors. The Thousand Son tactica has had many advanced steps in how to use our daemons. The early steps consisted of using a full 9-man squad. Some years later some of us discovere the meat shield tactic that involved horros. Now I believe the newest and last tactic used is the 5-man flamer squad.The +1 summoning bonus is really not that big a deal around the 3rd 4th turn (when they usually arrive for us). So anyway, I beleive horrors have somewhat lost there use for meatshields. The only real use I see is if you are begging for points, or you don't have enough, you can drop som flamers for horrors or vise versa.

ShadowKitana
16-02-2007, 20:01
So It took 5000+ posts in the tactica thread to realise that Horrors have no real use? I would read the thing but it is just too long.

Reinnon
16-02-2007, 20:20
we realised it back in the days of the 9000 post tactica on Portent :)

ahhh, those were the days, a tactica thread bigger then some forums

nealhunt
16-02-2007, 20:21
I think that once the decision was made to go with automaton style for the Rubric marines, the departure from the background description of the legion's style was unavoidable. On a 40K table (or most game tables, for that matter) there is simply no way to reconcile "slow and plodding" with "sneaky and deceptive."

It also doesn't help that we are playing point-based wargames which are about "fair fights" and the Tzeentch style would be specifically about avoiding anything that looked remotely like a fair fight.

I wrote the TSons list for Epic (still a WIP, posted on the SG Epic website if anyone wants to provide feedback) and found over and over again that the requirements of the Rubric basically tanks the chances of having any sort of complex or deceiving character to the army in actual game play. The enemy simply has more ability than the TSons to react. I played just about as fast and loose with mapping over the 40K abilities as I thought I could but the basic situation remains. Even with more freedom to play with things like Silver Towers, entire formations of Disc Riders and titan support, the core of the army remains a very tough but ultimately slow and poorly armed infantry with a few shooty bits in support.

It's almost like they're a WFB Dwarf army.

IMHO, I can see two approaches that could remedy that without changing the Rubric:

1) Instead of the core squad being Rubric TSons, turn it into a core of sorcerers with Rubric bodyguards. Something like 3 Sorcerers and 6 TSons would have substantially more flexibility than the typical 1/8 ratio, allowing the equivalent of specialized "heavy" or "assault" squads based on the Sorcerers' gear rather than all-vanilla-Rubric-horde. You don't even have to change the background material to do it. Most of the Legion could still be Rubriced but they Sorcerers can only manage/command so many of them during combat so they leave most of them "in storage" so to speak.

2) Radically change the powers available to the Sorcerers to enhance the deception aspect. You could incorporate things like post setup movement, teleports (not teleporting in the traditional sense, but moving squads to represent a combination of illusions and masked movement), screening powers that use the vision mechanics and so on.


Of course, another option would be to change the Rubric to more closely reflect the Eldar Wraith constructs instead of the Slow and Steady traits. There are portions of the background that seem to indicate that Rubric TSons can actually operate on their own for brief periods before lapsing into inactivity. The required intermittent direction from the Sorcerers could be compared to the required sensory input from Eldar Seers and use a similar mechanic (possibly an identical one). Rubric marines would consequently much less like 1950's moster movie robots and more like they are described in the background, especially the stuff from late 2nd/early 3rd.

That would leave the TSons as something like a hybrid between Iyanden Eldar and CSM - very tough troops with minor command and control issues led by sorcerers. That approach combined throwing some deception psychic powers into the mix on top of that would be my first choice of how to fix TSons.


As always, just my 2 cents and YMMV.

ShadowKitana
16-02-2007, 20:35
Being Slow does not stray away from being sneaky, it is just that GW basicly forgot that aspect. On a Tsons codex development fan forum in a conceite to give Sons special weapons and heavy weapons they must be accomplanied by a sorcerer or else they would suffer from something like wraithsight. That would represent that said weapons need more direction to be used. Of course I would rather see more decietfull stuff than weapon stuff first.

zendral
16-02-2007, 22:18
I think that once the decision was made to go with automaton style for the Rubric marines, the departure from the background description of the legion's style was unavoidable. On a 40K table (or most game tables, for that matter) there is simply no way to reconcile "slow and plodding" with "sneaky and deceptive."

It also doesn't help that we are playing point-based wargames which are about "fair fights" and the Tzeentch style would be specifically about avoiding anything that looked remotely like a fair fight.

I wrote the TSons list for Epic (still a WIP, posted on the SG Epic website if anyone wants to provide feedback) and found over and over again that the requirements of the Rubric basically tanks the chances of having any sort of complex or deceiving character to the army in actual game play. The enemy simply has more ability than the TSons to react. I played just about as fast and loose with mapping over the 40K abilities as I thought I could but the basic situation remains. Even with more freedom to play with things like Silver Towers, entire formations of Disc Riders and titan support, the core of the army remains a very tough but ultimately slow and poorly armed infantry with a few shooty bits in support.

It's almost like they're a WFB Dwarf army.

IMHO, I can see two approaches that could remedy that without changing the Rubric:

1) Instead of the core squad being Rubric TSons, turn it into a core of sorcerers with Rubric bodyguards. Something like 3 Sorcerers and 6 TSons would have substantially more flexibility than the typical 1/8 ratio, allowing the equivalent of specialized "heavy" or "assault" squads based on the Sorcerers' gear rather than all-vanilla-Rubric-horde. You don't even have to change the background material to do it. Most of the Legion could still be Rubriced but they Sorcerers can only manage/command so many of them during combat so they leave most of them "in storage" so to speak.

2) Radically change the powers available to the Sorcerers to enhance the deception aspect. You could incorporate things like post setup movement, teleports (not teleporting in the traditional sense, but moving squads to represent a combination of illusions and masked movement), screening powers that use the vision mechanics and so on.


Of course, another option would be to change the Rubric to more closely reflect the Eldar Wraith constructs instead of the Slow and Steady traits. There are portions of the background that seem to indicate that Rubric TSons can actually operate on their own for brief periods before lapsing into inactivity. The required intermittent direction from the Sorcerers could be compared to the required sensory input from Eldar Seers and use a similar mechanic (possibly an identical one). Rubric marines would consequently much less like 1950's moster movie robots and more like they are described in the background, especially the stuff from late 2nd/early 3rd.

That would leave the TSons as something like a hybrid between Iyanden Eldar and CSM - very tough troops with minor command and control issues led by sorcerers. That approach combined throwing some deception psychic powers into the mix on top of that would be my first choice of how to fix TSons.


As always, just my 2 cents and YMMV.

Interesting stuff, I wouldn't mind it. I have thought about something alot like this, but I did not think about having multiple sorcerors in rubric squads. It would be a nice change of game play and would make a lot of son players happy.


we realised it back in the days of the 9000 post tactica on Portent :)

ahhh, those were the days, a tactica thread bigger then some forums

I remember that, I was roughly new to portent just before it went down, of course I went by a different name, but I never thought the Son tactica thread could come back with so many posts. Glad I was wrong :)

omricon
17-02-2007, 00:42
Dont forget that the rubric sign was to its core an anti Tzentch spell which somehow worked into his plan. As a result Rubric tactics will be less tzentchy...