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View Full Version : Why the popular Units are propular?



omricon
13-02-2007, 10:47
To say the obvious thing is to say that ite because they are undercosted, I dont think that is the whole story.

I think in many cases, the popular units are popular because they actually help to remove tactics from the game and hence the possibility of being beaten by a tactically superior player.

Take Obliterators for example. Because they have the tactical flexibility to fire any type of weapon, its hard to make a deployment error, because they can move and fire its hard to make a movement error, they are the perfect unit tactics wise because they are so hard to not use correctly. (And if left in the open probably wont die)

The same could be said of the old eldar wraithlords, their exception being the fewer weapon options.

Take Ass. cannons on terminators. Move and fire? yes, (I think?); targetting? yes anything, you can shoot ANYTHING with them and still have a good chance of doing some damage (except maybe a monolith).

GW needs to remember this when creating these ultimately tactically flexible units and price them (in points) appropriately. I believe that in the case of the landraider and possibly even the monolith they have done this, the points actually reflects their flexibility. If it can do everything it should cost everything.

Another example is the master of the ravenwing (most players arent dumb enough to leave his rear armour exposed).

So your enemy cannot deny them a target and finds it difficult to kill them.

I know there are other examples but I wont bother listing, you get the idea.

I personally really admire a good nid or guard player, not because hes GeQ but because he or she is forced to think about what each unit can and cant do for army selection, movement and deployment.

And again with those Tau players (and to some extent eldar) who have plenty of options but must tailor that unit for a purpose and use it for that purpose or risk making a tactical error.

omricon
13-02-2007, 10:51
dang it, my spell-fu is weak, sorry for the typo :(

Griffin
13-02-2007, 11:04
I dunno - I play Iyanden Eldar,and my troops cost 35 Points a pop, move slow, have short range. But to a extent I agree with you oblits and enc should cost more.

I allso play Chaos BTW so I'm beeing honest not biased.

The_Outsider
13-02-2007, 11:12
Does that then technically make necron warriors badly undercosted?

Tank busting abilities don't come cheap and gauss completely gets round it. There is a reason why destroyers are probably the best necron unit.

azimaith
13-02-2007, 11:15
Most popular units, or more specifically, popular weapons, exhibit the "golden gun" style utility. As in they're good against everything. This is where stuff like Necron destroyers fit in, same with Oblits because they pack so many different types of weapons. Others are combinations like Fireknife crisis suits that allow for a good range of utlity versus a large number of opponents.

Other units are actually plain undercosted though.

don_mondo
13-02-2007, 12:17
Does that then technically make necron warriors badly undercosted?

Tank busting abilities don't come cheap and gauss completely gets round it. There is a reason why destroyers are probably the best necron unit.

IMO, yes, they are. They're basically Marines with a lower Initiative who can kill anything in the game and are extermely hard to kill themselves due to WBB. And they cost what, 3 points more than a Marine? I'd pay 3 points for WBB and Gauss weapons. And honestly, when's the last time you saw a Necron army without an Orb or two?

azimaith
13-02-2007, 12:20
Necrons don't only suffer in the initiative department. They have no squad weapons, which despite being able to wound the T8 once in a blue moon creatures is not all its cracked up to be. Not compared to a plasma gun. Their abilities versus vehicles are much better. Combined with phase out rules it makes the necron warrior very reasonable if you take the entire army as a whole. But saying giving an identical unit to an eldar/marine/whatever army would make them badly undercosted. But hell, marines themselves are undercosted so it follows that most MEQs will be. As if ATSKNF is only a one point ability.

Mr_Smiley
13-02-2007, 12:44
Azimath summed it up, Necrons are not undercosted, many a time I would've killed to take a plasma gun in a squad.
However popular units are generally popular because of tactical flexibility, not because of points, also most popular units are generally the cheaper models to buy.

omricon
13-02-2007, 13:33
Tactically flexible units should be priced accordingly. Tactics are only truely rewarded when you get one purpose units which are cheaper than normal and therefore have to be used correctly to win you the game.

Toastrider
13-02-2007, 14:30
IMO, yes, they are. They're basically Marines with a lower Initiative who can kill anything in the game and are extermely hard to kill themselves due to WBB. And they cost what, 3 points more than a Marine? I'd pay 3 points for WBB and Gauss weapons. And honestly, when's the last time you saw a Necron army without an Orb or two?

No special weapons, no heavy weapons, no power weapons, no upgrades other than disruption fields on most units. The Lord gets wargear and a power weapon (upgradeable to a 'kill you dead' weapon).

'Nuff said.

--TR

omricon
13-02-2007, 15:03
This isnt about whether necrons fulfil this criteria, (and it should never apply to a troops choice).

Perhaps I should suggest a house rule for our club which points penalises golden gun weapons.

I am not talking say plasma guns, they trade shot numbers for AP, obliterators are sick though and simply should not exist (unless they cost much more), where did tactics go?

Zerosoul
13-02-2007, 15:48
This isnt about whether necrons fulfil this criteria, (and it should never apply to a troops choice).

Perhaps I should suggest a house rule for our club which points penalises golden gun weapons.

I am not talking say plasma guns, they trade shot numbers for AP, obliterators are sick though and simply should not exist (unless they cost much more), where did tactics go?

Obliterators suffer massively from a total lack of meaningful screening rules. One zot from a lascannon and you better hope you hit that invulnerable save, else you're down a very expensive model. Sure, they're good, but T4(5) is a massive nerf for a 0-1 unit with a maximum of three models.

Mojaco
13-02-2007, 15:53
Massive nerf? You're talking lascannons that are usually in high demand against the regular obliberator-fielding armies, as they've got plenty more targets to choose from.

Plus I've rarely seen a obli that didn't make it's points back, often in its deepstrike turn alone.

Aliarzathanil
13-02-2007, 23:48
Just a short list of units I see in almost every army the can run them in no real order...

Basilisks, because 100-125pts for a marine killing pie plate is a steal.
Broadsides, because they auto-pin AV11 and are really hard to kill.
Anything with Assault Cannons, because assault cannons extra killy.
Obliterators, because they DSm and have anyweapon they need.
Predators, becuase any weapon load is decent and they're a bit cheap.
Space Wolf Scouts, because they require minimal tactics, are cheap, and can't really be defended against.
Wraithlords, because Eldar players like to hear SM players complain.
Flying 2+ Hive Tyrant, because they look cool.

Just my two cents.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
13-02-2007, 23:51
The trick with super units is to do your level best to exploit their weaknesses. Both Obliterators and Destroyers, to use the above examples suffer in HTH, as sure, they aren't exact;l weedy, but fodder units will tie them down, and thus make them a waste......

Basic tactics really. Never meet your opponent on his terms, and why go for a fair fight when you can just shoot him in the face and stay pretty?

pwrgmrguard
14-02-2007, 00:11
So what would be said of the IG HW platoon with carapace, cameleoline, sharpshooters, and 10 missile launchers? I play IG and i have considered fielding three of theses as my main army. As a beat the cheese list, never fielded regularly. I think it would be an even trade off cuz thats a damn lot of points there.

Aliarzathanil
14-02-2007, 00:23
Mad Doc, name a fodder unit likely to get close enough to a Oblit to tie it up. The do have decent WS, 2 wounds and powerfists....

Aliarzathanil
14-02-2007, 00:24
In addition, if you do tie it up, it's probably already fired a few times anyway.

pwrgmrguard
14-02-2007, 00:31
umm a 50 man conscript platoon with a commissar?? that'll get to anything especially if there are three.

Toastrider
14-02-2007, 00:57
Space Wolf Scouts, because they require minimal tactics, are cheap, and can't really be defended against.

*chuckles* I had a squad of Wolf Scouts (plasma and melta) pop into my backfield during a brutal match between my Necrons and the Space Wolves. They knocked down two Destroyers in a four-unit squadron.

Next turn, both Destroyers made WBB rolls. The squadron turns to look at the Scouts...

...Well, you can guess how it ended ;)

--TR

Aliarzathanil
14-02-2007, 02:14
umm a 50 man conscript platoon with a commissar?? that'll get to anything especially if there are three.

So a 240 point solution to a 85 point problem:eyebrows:

Not to mention the fact it would be turn three at the earliest when you assault.

AngryAngel
14-02-2007, 06:46
I'd say the popular units are popular. At least for me, because they are consistent. If something always delivers when I need it to. It earns a popular spot for me. Dreads..especially venerable ones. They always deliver for me. Survive, draw damage, and anchor down my combat lines.

Off the top of my head they are I believe the only real consistent things I use. Anything else can waver and fluctuate. Thats what makes popular to me. Though I don't find assault cannons as popular for me, for they don't always deliver..as well as the units that carry them.

shabbadoo
14-02-2007, 08:08
What makes me like a unit is usually the miniatures themselves. I like Dreadnoughts so I always field one in my Dark Angels and Chaos armies. As soon as I finish builidng my Ork Dreadnought it will always be included as well.

omricon
14-02-2007, 10:23
Theres a difference between units that are seen due to having a cool model and units that are seen because they win you games without requiring you to think. The latter includes oblits, SW Scouts, Ass. cannons, destroyers etc.

Destroyers I can forgive because those poor necrons dont have any other choices.

The only thing I have seen to be really effective against oblits (that shouldnt be doing something else like killing vehicles) are Rough Riders, if a mostly intact 99 point RR squad hits a unit of oblits, mathhammer says just over 2 of them are dead. The squad then ties up the rest for as long as is necessary.