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broxus
14-02-2007, 02:40
Does anyone else feel that armies can field all skimmer tank/vehicle armies take the fun out of the game. They seem to take all the fun out of terrain placed on the table. Tank traps/ barbed wire/ buildings dont channel or work the proper way if someone has an all skimmer army.

Now let me make it clear I am not talking about single units that can do this such as Land Speeders/Vypers/Jet bikes/Tau piranahs. These units add some flavor to the game because they are the exception not the rule. They make you watch your flanks at all times.

Im talking I hate all skimmer tau and eldar armies because honestly espically in heavy terrain areas they dont have Avenues of Approach or channels to plan your tactics around.

Please, im not talking about balance of armies or that its fair Im just saying I dont think its fun to play again. Espically when there are tank traps everywhere and it only effects non-skimmer armies so your opponet knows the EXACT way you must come if he does any terrain anaylsis but you cant do that in return.

cailus
14-02-2007, 02:43
Never played against a skimmer tank army. Tanks are expensive to buy so most people don't. Nearly all the Tau armies I've seen (including my own) emphasised infantry with the odd Hammerhead for support.

Never seen an Eldar army...

And the people that usually do field lots of tanks are IG dudes who field tons of them including Baneblades, Manticores and Laser Destroyers (I know two guys who go nuts on Forge World armour and the two or three other IG players I know field lots of tanks).

broxus
14-02-2007, 02:51
Well, normally Im talking about the all grav tank/transport army so devilfish, falcons, ect fall into this catagory. The all mech tau army is pretty common around here.

chromedog
14-02-2007, 02:52
Tell that to my last opponent. His chaos marines (demonbomb) walloped my eldar army (no objectives, just cleanse). Mind you, it took him five turns of shooting to take down my vehicles. He he.

Penitent
14-02-2007, 02:55
I can't say I've ever found it boring or not fun, either to play with or against skimmer armies.

The fact that they operate differently from ground vehicles gives the game interesting variety to me.

broxus
14-02-2007, 02:56
Yea not saying that the lists are cheesy or anything just saying do others find they take away from the fun of terrain and the game some?

Penitent
14-02-2007, 03:12
I have seen skimmers ignore terrain some, but not as much as you seem to have witnessed. Usually, I play my skimmers to hug terrain, so that every weapon in the opponent's arsenal can't see them. There are times where they will leap-frog terrain to off-load a squad or take shots.

I've found that, if a player is hugging terrain with his skimmers, it isn't too difficult to predict where they are going. I can't speak for skimmers ignoring tank traps or barbed wire though. Those don't get used much in my neck of the woods.

Reflex
14-02-2007, 03:21
See, instead of saying they are not fun and giving up, i suggest you think up stratergies and ways to take them down, this is what warhammer is about. if there is something that is hard to beat, then giving up is not the answer, if it was then the napoleonic wars would have ended in an instance... see what i mean... what army do you play btw???

starlight
14-02-2007, 03:31
If they move to avoid all terrain:eyebrows:......everything in your army can shoot at them.:evilgrin:

Not much of a downside to me.:D

As to the rest of it, it just adds variety.:D

azimaith
14-02-2007, 03:34
I dunno, for my orkz and nids its not much fun to play 100% mechanized tau and especially not eldar. Most of which just end with the enemy losing a tank or two and being wiped off the board as I don't play godzilla.

The problem with 100% skimmer armies is they are basically near impossible to take down with assault heavy armies with lower shooting. I'm sure nidzilla with all its guns could do well enough, but its unfortunate to see the classic swarm go out of style thanks to 100% mechanized armies.

I don't really hate them, but I don't really enjoy playing against them as against hordes, the battle will inevitably be very one sided.

starlight
14-02-2007, 03:36
There should be an amendment for flying units attacking Skimmers......

Gargoyles and Stormboyz should have *some* edge.....

azimaith
14-02-2007, 03:40
What would help is:
1: Jump Pack troops hit a skimmer on a 5+. This keeps intercept good but gives an edge to some units.
2: Skimmers *may* be penetrated in close combat.

The above of course if the vehicle didn't move over 6. It just gets rid of the always on a 6 even when standing still clause and makes it 5+ for troops. Thus you can stun+charge.

At least this way you could smash into one with a flyrant and wrestle it to the ground rather than have it just laugh at your misses and then shoot you in the face.

Also if storm boyz could take tank busta bombs :)

starlight
14-02-2007, 03:43
Consider those Offical House Rlues at starlight's pad/hobby room o' doom!:D

Heck, sometimes one of those things has to take a Gargoyle/Stormboy in an engine intake.....:angel:

azimaith
14-02-2007, 03:57
There was actually a point in the nid tactics where I wrote up rules for swarming with tyranids where if you had as many models/wound as the frontal armour value attacking a vehicle it would inflict an automatic glancing hit on a D3 besides any other damage.

pwrgmrguard
14-02-2007, 04:04
I am an IG player and would prefer my tables have no terrain whatsoever, that way my HW's and tanks could their job while the hordes of infantry bog you down.

RapidKiller
14-02-2007, 04:36
Pehaps if you told us what army you played maby we could help you?

ss_cherubael
14-02-2007, 04:45
There is nothing wrong with skimmers imo. They add more to the game as you have to adjust to their tactics. I'm talking about the Tau FOF, Eldar falcon army or even just the odd speeder or what not. They are very cool additions to the game and they make you sit back and think about such things as LOS and fire lanes. Also no one can say they didnt have fun blowing that wave serpent out of the sky while it was carrying a massive aspect squad?

Hellebore
14-02-2007, 05:45
I dunno, for my orkz and nids its not much fun to play 100% mechanized tau and especially not eldar. Most of which just end with the enemy losing a tank or two and being wiped off the board as I don't play godzilla.

The problem with 100% skimmer armies is they are basically near impossible to take down with assault heavy armies with lower shooting. I'm sure nidzilla with all its guns could do well enough, but its unfortunate to see the classic swarm go out of style thanks to 100% mechanized armies.

I don't really hate them, but I don't really enjoy playing against them as against hordes, the battle will inevitably be very one sided.

I think this is more of a problem with those armies than skimmers per se.

Even on glancing a skimmer has a 33% chance of being destroyed (unless moving less than 6"), and considering the highest AV value on a skimmer tank is 13 (on the Hammerhead) it isn't TOO hard to get a glance.

Of course, that's only with armies that have good AT weapons.

Although, I would have thought that orks with their zzap guns would take them down all the time?

Hellebore

AngryAngel
14-02-2007, 06:13
They're definatly annoying. Though enough shooting will take um down of course. Watching some nid armies struggle with them though is quite sad.

I find it annoying how wicked strong most skimmer tanks are. When held up to the ground based tanks, that have all the limitations, really isn't any negative to skimmers. Which seems kinda beat. Their armor isn't even totally weak. Hell a hammerhead has heavier armor then a Predator, which is kinda beat.

I'd figure at least ground based tanks would have higher armor values aside from the few exceptions.

Azuremen
14-02-2007, 06:52
But they tend to cost more as well. A basic Waveserpent starts at 100 pts. You can get two rhinos for that much.

Yes, skimmers are harder to take down, but they have draw backs. Like you cannot use them as moving cover for an assault squad. Rhinos acting as portable cover are annoying as heck and very effective..

Now if you want to complain about skimmers, go back to 3rd edition when we Eldar could use the Crystal Targeting Matrix. JSJ on crack right there.

Mojaco
14-02-2007, 07:28
I've found that, if a player is hugging terrain with his skimmers, it isn't too difficult to predict where they are going.
QFT. Speed is their defense, as usually their armour is just 12 at best (Tau do better here, but are slower). So you CAN predict where they'll go, it just a matter of thinking differently.

I play an army that emphasises on skimmers (eldar) and if I'll ever play Tau I'll do the same. They are annoying, yes, but not hard to get a damage result on, so they have to avoid predictable firelanes.

Azuremen
14-02-2007, 08:58
Yup, cause at the very best, they spend the whole game shaken and not shooting. Which more or less sucks.

Only armies I am interested in playing are Eldar, Tau, and Dark Eldar. I just find tracked vehicles in the 41st millennium kinda, well, dumb. The Tau are a bit slow for my taste, but meh, what can ya do?

Carlos
14-02-2007, 10:08
I took about 40 Infantry models, 4 Serpents, a falcon and a prism in a 1500pts battle some months ago vs Chaos. The only thing left alive was an obliterator at the end.

All-skimmer armies are easy enough to take down, especially eldar, as they cant charge from a vehicle and they either take loads of tanks with no upgrades of a few tanks with lots of upgrades, which means they dont have enough tanks to be truly effective.

Tau are a different kettle of fish but are limited by their speed, as a Devilfish is only as fast as a Rhino, and so will most likely hug cover to avoid getting toasted.

"Only the truly unimaginitive commander complains about his enemy"

Bloodknight
14-02-2007, 10:38
It has gotten better with the new Eldar Codex as far as Falcons are concerned. These were a real pain in the ****. I´ve taken down a net 2 Falcons with IG during the 3rd and 4th edition, my flatmate playing Eldar...

Curufew
14-02-2007, 11:00
Personally, I find that the Tau skimmers are ok to deal with. But the problem comes from the Eldar SKimmers. They're so damn hard to take down (Holofield),
and move up to 36 " or 24 " if I remember correctly and they can't crash with they buy the upgrades.

machine_recovered_meat
14-02-2007, 11:09
"Only the truly unimaginitive commander complains about his enemy"

Hell yeah. Absolutely spot on.

Anaris
14-02-2007, 11:15
I have seen skimmers ignore terrain some, but not as much as you seem to have witnessed. Usually, I play my skimmers to hug terrain, so that every weapon in the opponent's arsenal can't see them. There are times where they will leap-frog terrain to off-load a squad or take shots.

I've found that, if a player is hugging terrain with his skimmers, it isn't too difficult to predict where they are going. I can't speak for skimmers ignoring tank traps or barbed wire though. Those don't get used much in my neck of the woods.

Yeah, couldn't agree more with this post. I usually play a Mech Eldar army and my regular Tau opponent plays a Mech Tau army. As neither of us simply fly our Skimmers above the terrain all game, making sure that we don't expose our tanks by hugging terrain is just as much of a challenge as the next game.

Voodoo Boyz
14-02-2007, 11:49
I hate the all skimmer armies because it basically takes the fun out of playing my Orks. Mech Tau & all Mech Eldar can completely dominate hoard or just assault armies in general, especially Orks because our Shooting is quite bad and easy to neutralize, at least the Nids can take 3 Sniper Fex's which are pretty good at downing Skimmers.

My Marines can pull stuff off vs. the 40k Air Force Armies, but that's only because of the AT firepower the Marines can put on the table.

Orbital
14-02-2007, 12:19
I hate the all skimmer armies...

Not that I'm trying to single anyone out, but do comments like this really help anyone?

Ironhand
14-02-2007, 12:28
Skimmers aren't overpowering, you just have to be prepared to deal with them and use the right tactics. Although I have to admit they are difficult for 'Nids to deal with.

Skimmers were REALLY annoying in 2nd Edition when they could do "pop-up" attacks.

@pwrgmrguard You'll have to come play on my jungle table sometime. :D

azimaith
14-02-2007, 12:30
I think this is more of a problem with those armies than skimmers per se.

Even on glancing a skimmer has a 33% chance of being destroyed (unless moving less than 6"), and considering the highest AV value on a skimmer tank is 13 (on the Hammerhead) it isn't TOO hard to get a glance.

Unless its a falcon.



Of course, that's only with armies that have good AT weapons.

Although, I would have thought that orks with their zzap guns would take them down all the time?

Hellebore
Not really, it hits auto and scores glances pretty well, but its one shot 24" with a chance of failure and it still just glances. Worse, the only viable platform for it to be on is a battlecannon. So sorry, if your shooting a tau hammer head with a battlewagon, you'll have a dead battlewagon in about one turn long before its in 24".

I used to run one gunfex in my tyranid army, switched that out eventually for 2, you just can't deal with them with a single one. Which isn't so bad because i've still got some 80 bodies of varying sizes and abilities running around, though no genestealers, skimmers slap them real fast.

My orkz have it alot harder because their shooting is alot worse than tyranid shooting and its relegated to a few easy to kill units. A couple scatter lasers/a single submunition and one of your two maximum tank busta squads gets squashed like bugs.

When it gets really bad is when i'm not just fighting skimmers weapons platforms, but when my enemies troops are all in skimmers too. Then my nids and orkz get to stand around with their pants around their knees hoping that I can drop a skimmer so and assault whatever pops out before they all gun me down as I'm stuck outside of close combat. This is where the skimmer armies really spank assault armies with bad saves *horribly*. Gunships aren't so bad, at least you can still do what your designed to do, but with troops all in skimmer transports you may as well pack up (though I never do, I just get spanked and move on.)

Sasquatch
14-02-2007, 12:51
I find it funny that people with one dimensional armies (assault) are complaining that they can't beat another one dimensional army (all skimmer) while still others with one dimensional armies (Shooty) think it's an easy kill.

And they all complain that the games aren't fun.

Maybe they should play more balanced armies. :eek:

Orbital
14-02-2007, 12:53
I find it funny that people with one dimensional armies (assault) are complaining that they can't beat another one dimensional army (all skimmer) while still others with one dimensional armies (Shooty) think it's an easy kill.

That was very well said.

azimaith
14-02-2007, 12:58
I'm sorry sasquatch. I'll go put some lascannons and autocannons on my gaunts right away. Oh wait *I can't*. Armies are slanted different ways and anyone with experience playing something other than space marines can tell you that. Tyranids are slanted more to assault with line troops while heavy support shoots. Orkz are slanted toward assault with spread shooting elements in all parts of the army, but none of good quality.

This makes it hard to deal with skimmers, Tyranids firepower is localized making it a primary target for heavily armed skimmers and they suffer less, Ork firepower is too short ranged to touch a skimmer across the board and too low quality in both accuracy and strength to provide a reliable anti-tank deterrent. Combine that with an entire enemy force mounted in skimmers, a very unbalanced force, its no wonder why armies like orks and tyranids suffer.

Perhaps when you realize not every army gets lascannons for their squads as upgrades you'll understand why.

Orbital
14-02-2007, 13:00
Tyranids are more known for assault than anything else, but they have some excellent shooting option and it is possible to make an all-shooty Tyranid army that is formidable.

jfrazell
14-02-2007, 13:09
To my personal opinion the skimmer rule itself is somewhat broken. The combination of glancing only and 6+, as well as relatively inexpensive prices make skimmers a bargain for the armies that can field them in mass. As has been noted, heavy assault armies now have real problems with them. They don’t have the ability to get in fast so are subject to heavy shooting. Once in it is difficult for assault troops to make effective kills. In V4 these strengths are further magnified when comparing them to non-skimmer vehicles. With the practical elimination of “hull down” similarly priced vehicles (Leman vs. a comparable Eldar vehicle) have dramatically different survival rates.

This could be rectified easily by: pricing; restricting availability; or modifying the rule (slightly). inversely non-skimmer vehicles could be priced more in accordance with the V4 changes and their limited survivability.

Bloodknight
14-02-2007, 13:35
I wouldn´t say that Raiders are too good, though. Paper armour and open topped mean "dead at 4+" on a glancing hit.
The problem comes IMO from closed AV12 skimmers with survival kits.

jfrazell
14-02-2007, 14:22
I'd agree with you there bloodknight.

Frodo34x
14-02-2007, 14:37
I find it funny that people with one dimensional armies (assault) are complaining that they can't beat another one dimensional army (all skimmer) while still others with one dimensional armies (Shooty) think it's an easy kill.
Not to try and criticize those playing armies such as Orks or 'Nids, but I think this is kinda true.

However, the blame is not neccessarily with the Assualt players. I think it's a great pity that 40k can come down to rock-paper-scissor like this.

The one thing I hate most about 40k is that winning or losing can often be determined in the deployment phase.

Sildani
14-02-2007, 15:14
Mind you, the "indestructible" Falcon comes in at over 200 points. And if you wing it, it can't shoot, at a minimum.

Bulwark
14-02-2007, 15:19
Maybe they should play more balanced armies. :eek:

You build me a balanced ork army than can take down a skimmer with shooting, and I'll play it.

Midknightwraith
14-02-2007, 15:34
I am just sick of this argument. Both Orcs and Tyranids have plenty of options to bring down skimmers. If you are having trouble, realize that until the troops in those transports are actually on the table those units don't count as scoring AT ALL.

I don't know about Tau, but for eldar an all skimmer list is dedicating 1/3 to 2/5 of his points to non scoring vehicles. At 1500 points that will give a mechanized eldar list somewhere in the neighborhood of 5-7 units or about 60 models in total. How many orcs/grots/gribblies can you buy for that? like 150 plus upgrades and support. Find some good cover and contest every quarter/objective/whatever. Mechanized Eldar (which seems to be the focus of the complaint, specifically things that can take holofields: Prizms and Falcons) won't have enough guns to really hurt orcs or nids unless they deploy their squads, and eldar infantry weapons are horribly short ranged giving orcs and nids the ability to assault, which is what you want, right?

Is it tough? Sure. Is it broken? That is more of a stretch, you just need to adjust your tactics to the different enemy. BTW, I would argue that orcs are going to have the same if not better long range and close range firepower than eldar What orc lack in BS they make up for in sheer volume of fire. Another little tid-bit to think about is that Eldar skimmers in particular have armor 10 in the rear, and are not protected by the fields from that direction. Having more units by almost double gives orcs and nids the opportunity to out flank those tanks and get the rear shots with basic guns that will bring down those tanks.

I've played Marines, Eldar, Orcs, and SOB, and let me tell you the vaunted indestructable Eldar skimmers are anything but indestructable. Individually they are tough, but they cost almost as much as having an additional maxed out squad of aspect warriors, if not more. Which only serves to increase the model advantage horde armies already have, and reduces the available number of guns the Eldar/Tau have to over come that advantage.

Master Jeridian
14-02-2007, 15:39
The one thing I hate most about 40K is that winning or losing can often be determined in the deployment phase.

Don't be silly....the army list phase is the big decider.

Voodoo Boyz
14-02-2007, 15:47
Not that I'm trying to single anyone out, but do comments like this really help anyone?

If I ended it there it wouldn't, but I gave very valid reasons to justify that statement. Considering the thread is on Skimmers and problems with them, I think stating that as an Ork player I despise playing against them and giving the reasons why is a valid post for the thread.


I find it funny that people with one dimensional armies (assault) are complaining that they can't beat another one dimensional army (all skimmer) while still others with one dimensional armies (Shooty) think it's an easy kill.

And they all complain that the games aren't fun.

Maybe they should play more balanced armies. :eek:

Really, so my Orks being an assault based army means they're one dimensional? Excuse me but how else am I supposed to play them? I do a fair bit of shooting in my lists, with LOTS of Rokkits, but every Ork is BS2 and our guns are S8 Max, with 24" Range. So actually hitting and glancing an AV12 Skimmer is actually something that takes work and luck in an Ork army.

It comes down to this, build any kind of non-feral Ork list you want and I'll bring in a Tau or Eldar Skimmer army and we'll see what happens.

Nids can deal with them, you just have to take 3 Sniiper Fex's (Enhanced Senses, Venom Cannon, Barbed Strangler) and you're pretty much good to go. Orks on the other hand have a real rough time with it no matter how many Rokkits you bring.

The Song of Spears
14-02-2007, 16:05
I think this is more of a problem with those armies than skimmers per se.

I second this. Certain armies have no issue taking down skimmers, and gnerally every skimmer dropped is a huge hit to a all skimmer army, so IMO skimmers are perfectly fine.

Its skimmers durability compared to land based tanks that gets me. If GW simply added 1 to the AV of all tracked vehicles (yes the LRC would be 15 all around) that would help enough to make skimmers not seem to tough compared to a regular tank.



Although, I would have thought that orks with their zzap guns would take them down all the time?

Um, not really. Zzap guns have a 24" range, so easy for a skimmer to stay away from, and they are random strength, so you are likely to get str 3 as you are str 10 (avg 7 str) so, no so hot...and what can carry them? heavy weapons batterys, that if you move them, they cant shoot and battle wagons that are regular tanks and open topped thus really easy to destroy.

The Song of Spears
14-02-2007, 16:08
You build me a balanced ork army than can take down a skimmer with shooting, and I'll play it.

Done and done. :D

My ork Waagh Council is neigh invulnerable to skimmers and as an army, they come with 14 rokkits. Skimmers rarely make it past turn 4 against this list.

Getz
14-02-2007, 16:35
I am just sick of this argument. Both Orcs and Tyranids have plenty of options to bring down skimmers.

Tyranids aren't so badly off, as at least they have Venom cannons (altough getting enough of them to handle proper Mech Tau might mean investing in Warriors :eek:) but Orks have a real problem.

In order to take down skimmers you need a weapon with combination of high strength and high volume of fire - autocannons, for example.

The strongest ork weapon with a high volume of fire is the Heavy Shoota, which is S5...

Not enough to tackle anything bigger than a Piranha.

Therefore, the only weapons Orks can fall back on are Kannons (inaccurate, single shot - must be fielded in batteries or on Battlewagons) Zzap guns (short ranged, unreliable, single shot - also must be fielded in batteries or on Battlewagons) Kustom Mega Blastas (dangerous, single shot, expensive, not terribly strong (S7)) and Rokkits (short ranged)

Of the above weapons, only rokkits fielded in huge numbers are an effective response, but being BS2 the only place they can do their job reliably is on a tin linked mount on a Buggy or Battlewagon and the volume of fire is never all that imprssive either.

Kyrolon
14-02-2007, 18:25
Here's a little bit of personal experience from my perspective as an Eldar player. The following are the things I dread seeing when fielding skimmers.

Marine Tactical squads: My regular opponent likes to play the 5-7 man squad with 1 HW of choice, and 1 plasma gun (always a plasma gun).

Imperial Guard HW squads/HQ's w/plasma guns: Lots of cheap shots at STR 7 or higher dooms most AV 12 skimmers.

Orks: I haven't faced them as often, but the times I have, orks with rokkit launchas (every squad can have at least 3 IIRC) and especially the Tank Bustas (which count as STR 9 even against Wave Serpents) have been the Bane of my skimmers. If you are having serious problems as an ork player I would suggest trying mobs of shoota boys against Eldar. Take Rokkit launchas as Heavy weapons on almost everything (the twin linked variety on wartracks is nasty). Using shoota boys will still give you high volumes of fire against horde opponents as well.

To sum this up, my personal experience is that my skimmers (be they Vipers, Wave Serpents, or Falcons) rarely live past the 3rd turn, and if they do they have only gotten 1 or 2 chances to shoot because they spend the game shaken. This is not enough to justify spending up to half my army's points on them. In third edition they saw more use in getting assault troops where they needed to go. With the new assault rules and the fact that I can't hide behind my transports after getting out, I haven't found a way yet to get any of my assault troops in hand to hand unless the enemy comes to me. As soon as Banshees set foot outside of the Wave Serpent they die. That's another nail in the coffin of the skimmer transport for me.

Now please don't take this as a rant against skimmers. It's not. They still have a place in my forces, but they are not the highlight, and are not as "unkillable" as people seem to think.

~Dan

P.S. as for making Land Raiders AV 15 that's just crazy talk! ;)
Str 8 can't even glance armor 15, so if certain armies showed up without 1 or two of the things they have higher than that Strength the Land Raider would become invincible. (Including Orks)

bertcom1
14-02-2007, 19:53
Something that my friends and I have been playing with is this.

Skimmers glancing only for moving is dependent on their speed, acting as a save against penetrating hits.
6-12" move, 4+ to downgrade penetratings to glances
12-18" move, 2+ to downgrade penetratings to glances
18"+ move, automatically downgrade penetrating to glances

This is because although they are moving targets, they are still big targets.

Also, we don't like the comparitive lack of tactics for vehicular combat. Weapons like lascannons that can destroy the most heavily armoured vehicles from any angle means there is no real need for manouvres such as flanking to take advantage of weaker armour. I would actually like to see an AV 18/14/10 vehicle, because you would have to outmanouvre it, rather than simply get line of sight.

the spook
14-02-2007, 20:20
Tyranids aren't so badly off, as at least they have Venom cannons (altough getting enough of them to handle proper Mech Tau might mean investing in Warriors :eek:) but Orks have a real problem.

In order to take down skimmers you need a weapon with combination of high strength and high volume of fire - autocannons, for example.

I second Getz on this - Tyranid players have no reason to complain about skimmers - they can access fairly cheap venomcannon/deathspitter? firing squads in the form of Tyranid Warriors.

People may not like them, but thats mostly a question of taste IMHO.

Orks - well - i can see why they'd have a hard time, but lets face it, they're not the only army suffering from bad army playstyle matchups.

Just think of Tau vs. Necron for example...

Midknightwraith
14-02-2007, 20:23
The problem bertcom1 is that vehicles can always turn to face and not count as moving. So you woud need 2 units on opposite ends of the board to effectively threaten such a vehicle. as a result the vehicle would need to have a much greater points cost compared to current vehicles. Also AV 18 is only going to ever worry about Melta and Gauss weapons from the front. The highest strength weapons non of which are Melta would not even be able to hurt such a vehicle from the front.

No the real answer unfortunately is that vehicles are pretty good as they are. Even skimmers. Just got to know how to handle them. Both using them and opposing them. They are skimmers, they are different from the tracked/wheeled/legged vehicles that other races use. Trying to take one out using the same tactics that are effective against the aforementioned vehicles doesn't work. Nor should it! They are different and tactics must adjust to that difference.

Orbital
14-02-2007, 20:23
I second Getz on this - Tyranid players have no reason to complain about skimmers

Thirded.

In the previous Tyranid codex that might have been an issue, but my experience with them in the current edition has shown me they have a wide array of options to take Skimmers out with.

Bulwark
14-02-2007, 20:31
I would argue that orcs are going to have the same if not better long range and close range firepower than eldar What orc lack in BS they make up for in sheer volume of fire.
I would sure like to hear that argument?
How many weapons do Orks have that can shoot over 24" and threaten a vehicle?
Thats what I thought :(

Orbital
14-02-2007, 20:36
I heard recently that Orks have a limited amount of psychic power, which is evidenced by the way that they can paint a vehicle red and somehow manage to make it real through sheer "Power of Faith" when other armies can't do the same thing.

I have started to believe, however, that Ork players also have a limited amount of psychic power. Their Orks might only be able to hit on a 5+, but I think the Ork player's sheer sense of faith makes it happen every single time.

Or maybe that's just the Ork players who play against me.

inane-fedaykin
14-02-2007, 20:45
The problem here is that orks are out dated. They simply aren't as good as other armies, of course they're going to have trouble.

Kahadras
14-02-2007, 21:19
I'm not fond of skimmers. Especialy the mechanised Tau and Eldar lists. Playing Space Wolves I tend to rely on my vehicles for my anti tank work and both Eldar and Tau can pack enough firepower to take these down fairly quickly. The best I've ever managed versus a mechanised Eldar/Tau list is a hard fought draw.

Kahadras

lord_blackfang
14-02-2007, 21:45
I second Getz on this - Tyranid players have no reason to complain about skimmers - they can access fairly cheap venomcannon/deathspitter? firing squads in the form of Tyranid Warriors.


Ah, yes. 33 pts for a 5+ save, 24" range, BS 3, single-shot gun at Strength 6. Takes up an Elite slot. One model per unit may upgrade to Strength 7 for 10 points extra. Falcons beware! :rolleyes:

Midknightwraith
14-02-2007, 21:45
I would sure like to hear that argument?
How many weapons do Orks have that can shoot over 24" and threaten a vehicle?
Thats what I thought :(

I was speaking in general terms. Orc basic weapons have twice the range of most man portable weapons in the Eldar list. As a result you can shoot twice before eldar on foot get to shoot once, and you have greater numbers on top of that.

For anti-tank they do have a 24" move and shoot S 8 weapon that can be taken 3 to a squad in *basic* troop choices (which practically guarantees 1 hit a turn per squad), and the numbers and rules to take the hits as they get into range? Yes. Do they have cheep field weapons that are S 10? Yes. Can they take looted Russes with BattleCannons? Yes. And as I pointed out before, a 100% mechanized Eldar army is going to be out numbered 4 to 1 by the Orcs, that is potentially 45 RockitLaunchers per turn, which averages out to 2 dead skimmers *per* turn. (but who would want to paint them?!?:p ) Other's on this very thread have claimed to have taken down Skimmers with no problems with less than half that number of rockits.

If the skimmers are staying outside 24", or behind terrain then you aren't getting shot at with enough to really hurt, and they are giving you free reign over the board. How in the world can that be a bad thing for you?

I'm not saying the orcs don't need a new codex, but I am saying they are not the defensless, weaponless pile of steaming dog squeeze against vehicles that you make them out to be.

After all even if the eldar take the high number of units 7, and assume they are all armed with ScatterLasers, and they all get to fire every turn, then by the end of the game the Eldar have killed less than one third of all the orcs on the table. Which means the Eldar are still outnumbered almost 3 to 1. Note this only happens on Planet Bowling Ball. In a "real" game those guns are going to fire less often. If your opponent is hiding his skimmers use your numbers to force him against a board edge and then pummel him.

azimaith
14-02-2007, 21:49
Tyranids are more known for assault than anything else, but they have some excellent shooting option and it is possible to make an all-shooty Tyranid army that is formidable.
How is an all shooting tyranid army, which mind you will *still* lack skimmer killing much of the skimmer killing firepower thankst to devourers capping at S6 balanced?

I play a hybrid shooting assault list and somehow i'm not balanced out but someone who takes all shooting is? Don't that sound a little silly to you?

What sasquatch said was ridiculous. You can't complain if you decide to play a 100% genestealer force or something, but its so blatantly obvious that some armies are much more geared toward assaulting than shooting it would be stupid to attribute difficulties with skimmers soley to players.


I am just sick of this argument. Both Orcs and Tyranids have plenty of options to bring down skimmers. If you are having trouble, realize that until the troops in those transports are actually on the table those units don't count as scoring AT ALL.

Yeah, because they can't get out of their skimmers on turn 6! Oh wait.



I don't know about Tau, but for eldar an all skimmer list is dedicating 1/3 to 2/5 of his points to non scoring vehicles.

So what? Its easy to bring nids under half and unscoring with rapid fire or bladestorm. The safety and ability to deliver unit destroying firepower overrides the loss of a few scoring units.



At 1500 points that will give a mechanized eldar list somewhere in the neighborhood of 5-7 units or about 60 models in total. How many orcs/grots/gribblies can you buy for that? like 150 plus upgrades and support.

Exactly, i'll just shoot your av 12(or 13) skimmers with my fleshborers and shootaz. Oh wait. That doesn't hurt them. Give me a break, you tell me I can buy alot of them but ignore the fact they can't do crap to skimmers.



Find some good cover and contest every
quarter/objective/whatever. Mechanized Eldar (which seems to be the focus of the complaint, specifically things that can take holofields: Prizms and Falcons) won't have enough guns to really hurt orcs or nids unless they deploy their squads, and eldar infantry weapons are horribly short ranged giving orcs and nids the ability to assault, which is what you want, right?
Uh, 18" is out of charge range for orks, dependent for nids. They just get out, bladestorm the crap out of you, then get back on next turn while their skimmer makes a wall in front of them. Maybe your not familiar how mechanized warfare is played.



Is it tough? Sure. Is it broken? That is more of a stretch, you just need to adjust your tactics to the different enemy. BTW, I would argue that orcs are going to have the same if not better long range and close range firepower than eldar What orc lack in BS they make up for in sheer volume of fire.

Oh *crappy* fire. A S5 gun will not hurt the av12 facings of a skimmer no matter how many you have of them. As for rokkits, you need to go chase them down which kind of kills your whole "sit in cover" idea. I don't think you've ever played or play orkz and you are just regurgitating what you hear about the army.



Another little tid-bit to think about is that Eldar skimmers in particular have armor 10 in the rear, and are not protected by the fields from that direction. Having more units by almost double gives orcs and nids the opportunity to out flank those tanks and get the rear shots with basic guns that will bring down those tanks.

Right and how are we going to get behind them? Teleportation? Sorry wrong army. The skimmers are a twice as maneuverable as any ork and any time we get anywhere close they can just turbo boost anywhere within 24" and flip us off.



I've played Marines, Eldar, Orcs, and SOB, and let me tell you the vaunted indestructable Eldar skimmers are anything but indestructable. Individually they are tough, but they cost almost as much as having an additional maxed out squad of aspect warriors, if not more. Which only serves to increase the model advantage horde armies already have, and reduces the available number of guns the Eldar/Tau have to over come that advantage.
Played orkz? Maybe once, because thats about how much experience your showing with them.


I was speaking in general terms. Orc basic weapons have twice the range of most man portable weapons in the Eldar list. As a result you can shoot twice before eldar on foot get to shoot once, and you have greater numbers on top of that.
You can't shoot at 24" with shootaz and move, they aren't assault weapons. Thus ork v guardian they shoot twice. Ork v dire avenger they shoot you 4 times and you shoot them once. So this is bogus right off the bat.



For anti-tank they do have a 24" move and shoot S 8 weapon that can be taken 3 to a squad in *basic* troop choices (which practically guarantees 1 hit a turn per squad),

Which if they get within range of a skimmer moving 12 inches.


and the numbers and rules to take the hits as they get into range? Yes. Do they have cheep field weapons that are S 10?

Uh no, the only non-looted weapon thats S10 in the ork list is a warboss with a powerklaw. Theres only a 1/6 chance for a S10 zzap gun which is very close to it overheating and not firing/killing grotz.



As much as orkz love firing ordnance, its obvious that in the new edition ordnance rules are not where they need to be, and even if we do hit, thats not going to kill skimmer by any stretch of imagination. It will shake in all likelyhood, shake it and the thing will just drive away.

[quote]
Yes. And as I pointed out before, a 100% mechanized Eldar army is going to be out numbered 4 to 1 by the Orcs, that is potentially 45 RockitLaunchers per turn, which averages out to 2 dead skimmers *per* turn. (but who would want to paint them?!?:p ) Other's on this very thread have claimed to have taken down Skimmers with no problems with less than half that number of rockits.

Sure you could, if you decided to gear an entire army to kill skimmers, big suprise it can kill skimmers! What about a balanced take all comers list! Balanced lists don't contain 45 rokkits.



If the skimmers are staying outside 24", or behind terrain then you aren't getting shot at with enough to really hurt, and they are giving you free reign over the board. How in the world can that be a bad thing for you?

Are you kidding? S6 AP4 large blasts, TL-Scatter lasers+Shuriken Cannons? You may be mistaking orks for space marines.



I'm not saying the orcs don't need a new codex, but I am saying they are not the defensless, weaponless pile of steaming dog squeeze against vehicles that you make them out to be.

Not against vehicles, with a balanced list V skimmers. Which is the entire point of bringing it up, which you missed quite well.



After all even if the eldar take the high number of units 7, and assume they are all armed with ScatterLasers, and they all get to fire every turn, then by the end of the game the Eldar have killed less than one third of all the orcs on the table. Which means the Eldar are still outnumbered almost 3 to 1. Note this only happens on Planet Bowling Ball. In a "real" game those guns are going to fire less often. If your opponent is hiding his skimmers use your numbers to force him against a board edge and then pummel him.
And then the eldar deploy on the objectives which the orks have a hard time reaching as they get fire focused on them as they get close and win. This is how it happens, i've played eldar enough, especially with their new codex, and i'm no stranger to mech tau at all.

Look, the point is skimmers are harder to deal with for some armies than others in balanced lists. Not the odd one off skimmer, but the 100% skimmer armada where everyones mounted. So far the only solutions i've seen is to throw out the balanced list and just go balls to the wall anti-skimmer as an answer. As with *any* heavily tilted list it becomes very problematic.

lord_blackfang
14-02-2007, 21:52
I was speaking in general terms. Orc basic weapons have twice the range of most man portable weapons in the Eldar list. As a result you can shoot twice before eldar on foot get to shoot once, and you have greater numbers on top of that.

So in your games footslogging Eldar often find themselves rushing Ork gunlines? :eyebrows:

Orbital
14-02-2007, 21:53
How is an all shooting tyranid army, which mind you will *still* lack skimmer killing much of the skimmer killing firepower thankst to devourers capping at S6 balanced?

Uh, because shooting hits from range, whereas assaulting requires you to move towards the target?

Because shooting hits on BS, whereas assaulting a skimmer only hits on a 6?


I play a hybrid shooting assault list and somehow i'm not balanced out but someone who takes all shooting is? Don't that sound a little silly to you?

Did I say that an all-shooting army was a more balanced army? No, I just said that if Tyranid assault isn't taking enemy skimmers down then you have options.

inane-fedaykin
14-02-2007, 21:59
So in your games footslogging Eldar often find themselves rushing Ork gunlines? :eyebrows:

They do in mine. Dire Avengers have 18" range and I've better things to transport.

Wraithbored
14-02-2007, 22:01
Let's be honest, Nids can take a falcon down, so let's focus on falcons alone since this thread has degenerated in falcons=indestructible. Orks have a problem yes, but when was the last time their dex was updated?

Orks are the only army that has trouble with them, every other army can toll themselves against a falcon, be it BS3 or not. And a BS3 Warrior with a venom cannon that costs 33 points is able to destroy said falcon which costs 115pts base(225 if tricked out) is a good bargain. And what people tend to forget that the max number of falcons is 3 which ammounts to 675 points now ussual the size of the games is 1500pts which leaves few points to spend on other things which WILL make an impact.

Also weapons with str.6 or greater with a volume of shots also have a good chance of sending it crashing. Because the falcon these days can't fire and duck back into cover like it used to. That again I will admit was a pain in the rear for our opponents. But then again Tau battlesuits do this and noone complains there. At least you CAN shoot a falcon now, how do you kill something you can't get a bead on or get into charge range because it keeps ducking away?

Also getting a unit of rending equipped troopers has a good chance of sending it to the ground. Yes you do need a 6 to hit it but that 6 still counts for rending purposes, again I will admit the odds of one unit succeeding are small but with volume it can be done. And if you manage to stun a falcon it means it won't do much shooting in the next turn you won't shake it if the Eldar player invested in a spirit stone.

Also many Eldar players will also spend points to buy a Farseer with a spirit stone and guide and another psychic power. So that's even more points gone. The new Eldar codex has also added the intercept feature for the swooping hawks, perhaps in the future the courtesy will be extended to other armies(sorry poitn again, but perhaps it would g o a way to aid your problems)

What it seemes to me is that people are just trying to find some way to rant at the new Eldar codex since the starcannon has been fixed and other cheese removed(and thank god it was). So I'm really asking you what else needs to be removed from the Eldar dex so that you'll all finally stop complaining?:eyebrows:

azimaith
14-02-2007, 22:16
Uh, because shooting hits from range, whereas assaulting requires you to move towards the target?

Because shooting hits on BS, whereas assaulting a skimmer only hits on a 6?

What in the hell are you talking about? I said how does choosing 100% shooting make it balanced.




Did I say that an all-shooting army was a more balanced army? No, I just said that if Tyranid assault isn't taking enemy skimmers down then you have options.
Yes, and this was in response to sasquatches asanine post that if you took a "balanced" army, skimmers wouldn't be a problem for them.


Let's be honest, Nids can take a falcon down, so let's focus on falcons alone since this thread has degenerated in falcons=indestructible. Orks have a problem yes, but when was the last time their dex was updated?

Yes they can. The problem arises when everyones in falcons and waveserpents which leaves your assault forces with nothing to assault until you can finally crack one open.




Also getting a unit of rending equipped troopers has a good chance of sending it to the ground. Yes you do need a 6 to hit it but that 6 still counts for rending purposes,

Incorrect on that. You need a 6 to hit and against vehicles a 6 to pen rends. Thus you need two 6s in a row. Good luck with that. Especially after getting gunned down while trying to catch them before they decide they don't want to be near them and move 24" away.

Kahadras
14-02-2007, 22:18
What it seemes to me is that people are just trying to find some way to rant at the new Eldar codex since the starcannon has been fixed and other cheese removed(and thank god it was).

I don't think so. Skimmer armies have long been a problem for me ever since a guy started using a mecha Tau list back in 3rd ed. I can see why certain armies struggle against the concept.

Kahadras

Orbital
14-02-2007, 22:20
What in the hell are you talking about? I said how does choosing 100% shooting make it balanced.
Sorry if I misread you. I thought you were saying that Tyranids didn't have options other than assault.


Yes, and this was in response to sasquatches asanine post that if you took a "balanced" army, skimmers wouldn't be a problem for them.
The way I read his comment was to mean that if you take an army that's too focused on either one aspect or another then you'll end up with some challenges which are too hard and others which are dead easy... whereas, if you take a more balanced army, everything can be a challenge, but nothing is impossible. I don't think he said that skimmer-armies wouldn't be a problem; I think he was just saying they wouldn't necessarily be impossible.

Wraithbored
14-02-2007, 22:22
@Kahardra& Azimaith: I'll concede to both points I'm acctually online talking to a mate of mine and we're trying to come up with ways to help you guys tear a new one to loophole(by loophole I mean VP denial tactics, I think mech Eldar players used to play the Ulthwe seer conference) exploiting bastards. I'll admit I tend to go skimmer heavy too.

demicanadian
14-02-2007, 22:23
Tau Skimmer tanks can move as Fast Attack & still fire S10 shots or pie plates, thanks to Multitracker upgrades... so they get autoglance for any penetrating fire (along with the stuff to not blow up when immobilized), but not the Holofield re-rolls.

Genestealers attacking a Skimmer tank... meh, not so good. How would anyone leave a Skimmer in range of a rending charge?

As for Space Marines taking loads of cheap Lascannons as a method of countering Skimmer armies... aren't we saying that 6-man las/plas is a cheese tactic?

/Wave Serpent is ~100ish points? A Tau Warfish is ~100 points and doesn't have the WS's shielding... and Warfishes are plenty awesome for Mech Tau.

azimaith
14-02-2007, 22:27
Sorry if I misread you. I thought you were saying that Tyranids didn't have options other than assault.

They certainly have other options, one of the benefits of the new codex. They aren't as bad off as orks, but if your not playing nidzilla a large portion of your army gets to sit around and do nothing while you try to kill one with a guntyrant/flyrant/gunfex and all of them are getting hosed every turn by gunfire, it becomes a dice roll off.



The way I read his comment was to mean that if you take an army that's too focused on either one aspect or another then you'll end up with some challenges which are too hard and others which are dead easy... whereas, if you take a more balanced army, everything can be a challenge, but nothing is impossible. I don't think he said that skimmer-armies wouldn't be a problem; I think he was just saying they wouldn't necessarily be impossible.
Nothing is impossible in 40k, I've taken down practical armies worth of mechanized tau with my orks in a friendly games with my "deff wing" list (as in Death Wing with orkz) almost soley killing with my drop pods storm bolters. Doesn't mean you should rely on it.

The point i'm trying to make is that its alot harder for tyranids and orks to deal with 100% mechanized than it is for armies like space marines or Imperial guard because we don't lose alot of effectiveness right out the door and the tanks themselves are difficult to kill.

Wraithbored
14-02-2007, 22:28
Tau Skimmer tanks can move as Fast Attack & still fire S10 shots or pie plates, thanks to Multitracker upgrades... so they get autoglance for any penetrating fire (along with the stuff to not blow up when immobilized), but not the Holofield re-rolls.

Genestealers attacking a Skimmer tank... meh, not so good. How would anyone leave a Skimmer in range of a rending charge?

As for Space Marines taking loads of cheap Lascannons as a method of countering Skimmer armies... aren't we saying that 6-man las/plas is a cheese tactic?

/Wave Serpent is ~100ish points? A Tau Warfish is ~100 points and doesn't have the WS's shielding... and Warfishes are plenty awesome for Mech Tau. The holofield is not a re-roll it's roll 2 dice and pick lowest it's nastier.:rolleyes:

As for Space MArines the Asscannon is a far better investment.

The_Outsider
14-02-2007, 22:30
*Insert Raider and Ravager here*

Tau and eldar skimmers are tough yes (probably a little too tough).

IMO the problem lies with the skimmer rules themselves.

Hammerheads just make a mockery of "fragile skimmers".

(I say HH over falcon because the falcon isn't toting a railgun or horde splating sub shot).

Orbital
14-02-2007, 22:32
If I may contribute something that might help: I've lost a lot of Eldar skimmers (and I mean a lot) from being attacked to the rear. Not only is the back end AV10, but the Eldar Energy Field (which is standard on Wave Serpents) doesn't cover the back. A Lascannon that hit the prow of a Wave Serpent still has to roll 4 to glance, but a hit from that same Lascannon on the rear only needs a 1 (and I don't think they make dice that roll a "0").

I've gotten the most grief from having Terminators Deep Strike behind me or having other nasties appear out of nowhere (like Furies) and hit the back of my goobed-out Falcon. If you're really needing to cork an Eldar skimmer, try to flank and maneuver around to the back.

rev
14-02-2007, 22:44
i have a mate who plays an all bike eldar list.

It makes a nice change to play against, tho its really hard to beat.

Dont whine about cheese lists kid, just find a way to beat them to better yourself!

Kahadras
14-02-2007, 22:45
I've lost a lot of Eldar skimmers (and I mean a lot) from being attacked to the rear. Not only is the back end AV10, but the Eldar Energy Field (which is standard on Wave Serpents) doesn't cover the back.

This is the way I tend to take them down with my Wolves but the tactic can be countered by covering the rear of your transports a la Fish of Fury style. I doesn't help that the tanks are so damn fast as well.

:(

Kahadras

Sasquatch
14-02-2007, 23:36
What sasquatch said was ridiculous. You can't complain if you decide to play a 100% genestealer force or something, but its so blatantly obvious that some armies are much more geared toward assaulting than shooting it would be stupid to attribute difficulties with skimmers soley to players.

Well, I seem to have touched a nerve!

First of all, I wasn't pointing the finger at any particular army and I realize that some armies are more focused towards a certain playing style.

What I was saying is that all the mentioned army types (assault, skimmer or shooty), regardless of what list is used to make them, have an inherent weakness. It's intrinsic to any army that over specializes.

Assault oriented will have trouble with skimmer lists because they can't get hits. It's not because skimmers are too strong. It's not because assault is too weak. It's because both armies are over specialized and in this case, skimmers have the edge over assault.

And please don't give me any bull about this or that army not being able to take on some other army. GW has done a pretty good job of making every army playable. I've been shot to pieces by both Orks and Nids. Don't gripe that your rokkits only have 24" range, they have 15 ablative wounds and are assault weapons, I won't even go into looted vehicles! Shooty tyrants can pump out 12 twin linked, re-roll to wound S6 shots and zoanthrops can pack a whollop too.

The problem is that people make over specialized uber lists and then bitch when another over specialized uber list beats them.

And please don't patronize me because I'm a marine player. I've been a proud Space Wolf for over 15 years. Despite some opinions on this board, it's not a crime and I'm not a zit riddled pubescent noob.

I play a balanced force, heavy on the mech elements and I am more than proud of my record (52-8-8, btw). I've beat everything under the sun with my balanced list and it's a whole lot of fun.

broxus
15-02-2007, 00:21
Wow this post went so far off subject!!! My problem has never been beating an all skimmer mech army. I can do that np if I really want by just taking an all drop pod list with 2 melta guns per squad. My orginal point was this.

When you set up a city full of beautiful city terrain that creates fire lanes, obstacles, and challanges it is no fun to play against an army that just ignores all of that.

Sasquatch
15-02-2007, 00:37
Wow this post went so far off subject!!!

My orginal point was this.

When you set up a city full of beautiful city terrain that creates fire lanes, obstacles, and challanges it is no fun to play against an army that just ignores all of that.

Yeah, well a guy's got to defend his pride!;)

I do agree with you though. It's a lot of fun to fight it out in a nicely laid out battle field and it's a shame to ruin a game just to get a win. But some people can't see farther than that.


My problem has never been beating an all skimmer mech army. I can do that np if I really want by just taking an all drop pod list with 2 melta guns per squad.

My point is that it's this kind of reasoning that ruins the game. Somebody ignores all the effort you put into laying out a nice battlefield with lots of terrain by playing an all skimmers list and you turn around and ignore your own efforts by fielding a DP list to beat his skimmer list.

Marshal2Crusaders
15-02-2007, 00:58
Templars cant beat them, especially Tau. All those Hammer Heads eat my preds up and I dont take very many Las/Plas Squads(hey with Templars its necessary). Then When you get into assault youll wipe the unit out then just sit in the open while you are plasma gunned to death.

I am trying out a tactic this week though two bike squads with 3 meltas and 1 MM attack bike.

Orbital
15-02-2007, 01:00
Hammerheads are kind of an exception, though: They carry the most powerful gun in the game.

Voodoo Boyz
15-02-2007, 01:08
If you think that taking an all Drop Pod list with two melta guns per squad is going to beat an all Skimmer List you have another thing coming.

Glance, Roll 2D6 pick the lowest, oh look shaken....wow the skimmer is flying away...very far away...and I only have a 18" effective Move & Fire range with my two meltaguns!

From a normal point of view, I do not find Tau skimmers to be THAT bad, since on a glance you're generally looking at a 4+ to really hurt that hammerhead. Even a 3 on a glancing table is nasty to a Hammerhead, which when kitted out is 180 points!

Granted Tau are one of the main armies that make me NOT want to take Orks into the GW Store. Every Tau army I've seen in there in the last year was ALL MECH and when all your troops are either in skimmers (never coming out) or are in Jump Pack Suits that run away, AND your skimmers have S5 Guns that ignore LOS with 4 shots, well I can't hide my trukks. It's just a case of Mech Tau being really good at killing any kind of non Feral Ork build. Mech Tau is good, cheesy when done in the extremes, but every army has that.

It doesn't change the fact that Mech Tau being very popular makes it so that I prefer to take my Marines to the GW store rather than the Orks since it's no fun to play against that kind of army.

Eldar are a completely different can of worms. 3 Falcons coming out to over 600 Points? Who cares that's 600 Points that will VERY LIKELY make it to the end of the game and still be scoring, that's 600 VP's I will hardly ever touch. Combined with Mech Tau being popular, Mech Eldar VP Denial armies are also quite popular and for most of the same reasons as Tau make it so that it's just plain not fun to play against them with Orks.

They know that you need to assault to really hurt them, they know you can't shoot very far or well, and they're not getting out of their transports = you not assaulting them.

You know how to counter All Mech Eldar cheese/tournament armies? With Las/Plas + Assault Cannon Marine armies. Guess what, both army builds are cheesy and if us marine players have to put up with bitching about Las/Plas & Assault Cannons you Eldar can put up with bitching about Skimmer Armies with Holofields.

Hellebore
15-02-2007, 01:14
I'd still prefer a battlacannon to a railgun - it'll always hit something, and will generally penetrate vehicles too.

The problem I've found with my skimmers is that once they're hit, they never do anything, even with a holofield. Rerolling glances still means no shooting or no moving and shooting.

Because they can't move, they then don't get the glancing hit next shooting phase.

At the very least a glancing hit prevents me firing, and for a MBT that makes it pointless. With AV 12 it isn't that hard for most medium S weapons to glance, which then takes out the tanks main function.

The Hammerhead though has higher AV on the front, which means it only glances AND has a higher chance of ignoring low S hits.

The only thing I can think of for orks is several zzap gun batteries, and multiple rokkit launchas in mobs, eventually the hail of fire should be able to take a falcon down (or at least prevent it firing - which is almost as good).

Not as easy against a hammerhead though...

Hellebore

Orbital
15-02-2007, 01:15
Oh! I just thought of another approach that helps to kill Eldar skimmer armies: Insist on a high-points game.

What happens is that the sneaky Eldar guy will max out on Skimmers, thinking that he will beat you worse at 2000 points than he can at 1000 (or whatever). What he might not realize is that, at 2000 points (which yields roughly 7 skimmers to someone who is really trying to stay all mechanized), there just isn't enough terrain to hide his skimmers anymore. Worse still, his enemy has him covered from more angles than at a lower points game due to the great number of models on the table. Where before he could hide his Falcons, Fire Prisms and Wave Serpents behind terrain at just the right angle, he'll find that he quickly runs out of places to grab cover. This will allow you to focus fire on whichever Skimmer you want to see go down first. Marine players in particular are smart to go Las/Plas and stay in cover in their deployment zone, thus forcing the skimmers that carry passengers to move up. Suddenly, the Eldar player is like a guy stuck in a room full of bees wearing a pair of pants that's too small: No matter how he moves or which angle he faces, his ass is always hanging out somewhere, exposed to a stinger. ;)

This is coming to you from a guy who has been a devout Eldar player for a long time. Believe me... I've seen this work against me enough times to be afraid of it.

Voodoo Boyz
15-02-2007, 01:22
I'd still prefer a battlacannon to a railgun - it'll always hit something, and will generally penetrate vehicles too.

The problem I've found with my skimmers is that once they're hit, they never do anything, even with a holofield. Rerolling glances still means no shooting or no moving and shooting.

Because they can't move, they then don't get the glancing hit next shooting phase.

At the very least a glancing hit prevents me firing, and for a MBT that makes it pointless. With AV 12 it isn't that hard for most medium S weapons to glance, which then takes out the tanks main function.

The Hammerhead though has higher AV on the front, which means it only glances AND has a higher chance of ignoring low S hits.

The only thing I can think of for orks is several zzap gun batteries, and multiple rokkit launchas in mobs, eventually the hail of fire should be able to take a falcon down (or at least prevent it firing - which is almost as good).

Not as easy against a hammerhead though...

Hellebore

Zaap Gun batteries are terrible. 24" Move or Fire. They're crewed by T2 units and are AV10 if you hit them, and fully kitted out costs over 120 points (not even counting giving them a 5+ Save with a KFF Mek). And they have to take LD checks for 25% casualties.

The killer is 24" Move or Fire. Tau Skimmers LAUGH AT YOU and stay far away. Heck Falcons can do the same if they take the right guns (and the guns I've seen on Falcons are long range ~36").

So no, Ork artillery SUCKS even in general and it is especially useless against skimmers who generally want to do nothing more than move 12" while staying as far away as possible from you while shooting.

As far as glancing, first off, Hitting & Glancing an AV13 Tank (Hammerheads) with Orks isn't that easy to do. You need two 5+ rolls in a row to pull it off with Rokkits. Yes Tau skimmers ain't THAT over good because you can Stun them and go for the Pen next turn. Eldar Skimmers get Spirit Stones that work like Extra Armor, so they'll always be moving unless you blow them up or Immobilize them - Period.

RapidKiller
15-02-2007, 01:23
the answer.. just loot a leman Russ or wait until the new codex

Hellebore
15-02-2007, 01:29
How often is there size 3 terrain on the table though?

My skimmers almost never get to hide even at low points because there just isn't the terrain to hide behind. That goes for other races too...

Hellebore

Voodoo Boyz
15-02-2007, 01:32
Oh! I just thought of another approach that helps to kill Eldar skimmer armies: Insist on a high-points game.

What happens is that the sneaky Eldar guy will max out on Skimmers, thinking that he will beat you worse at 2000 points than he can at 1000 (or whatever). What he might not realize is that, at 2000 points (which yields roughly 7 skimmers to someone who is really trying to stay all mechanized), there just isn't enough terrain to hide his skimmers anymore. Worse still, his enemy has him covered from more angles than at a lower points game due to the great number of models on the table. Where before he could hide his Falcons, Fire Prisms and Wave Serpents behind terrain at just the right angle, he'll find that he quickly runs out of places to grab cover. This will allow you to focus fire on whichever Skimmer you want to see go down first. Marine players in particular are smart to go Las/Plas and stay in cover in their deployment zone, thus forcing the skimmers that carry passengers to move up. Suddenly, the Eldar player is like a guy stuck in a room full of bees wearing a pair of pants that's too small: No matter how he moves or which angle he faces, his ass is always hanging out somewhere, exposed to a stinger. ;)

This is coming to you from a guy who has been a devout Eldar player for a long time. Believe me... I've seen this work against me enough times to be afraid of it.

1.) That's not always an option. They can refuse to play that kind of points level, they may not be able to play that kind of points level model wise, and that doesn't work for tournaments OR in escalation games.

2.) Yes, going Las/Plas heavy Marines can effectively Neutralize the 3 Falcons (in general, they can still deliver Firedragon or Harlequin Payloads with relative impunity - there are counters, but it's pretty damn hard). Still you're fighting Eldar :cheese: with Marine :cheese:

3.) This really doesn't change the fact that Orks will still get hosed by skimmer armies. Though this is more because of the fact that Orks are outdated and underpowered (gasp!) and really will struggle against Mech Tau & Eldar (and Necrons with Liths, but that's another issue).

Almost every "balanced" army will have trouble with Skimmer Heavy Lists. Skimmers are really good in general and when Tau & Eldar get ways to make them even more resilient, it just brings it to ridiculous levels. I'm not saying that this is necessarily all THAT bad because without Skimmers and the associated units that go with them (Crisis/Stealths/Harlies/Dragons/etc) Eldar & Tau wouldn't have anything to fight against stupidly powerful builds from the other dex's (Pods, SAFH Marines, Demon Bombs, Godzilla Nids, etc).

Still this doesn't change the fact that Mech Eldar and Mech Tau make me not want to field Orks in GW stores since they're effective and hence popular and just screw over near any build I can make with them because it's a naturally bad matchup. At least Nids can go with 3 Sniper Fex's and have a good shot against the skimmers. Orks in general will get hosed against a competently played Skimmer List.

Voodoo Boyz
15-02-2007, 01:35
the answer.. just loot a leman Russ or wait until the new codex

I can field a full 3 Pie Plate Deathskull Ork army with a Demolisher, Leman Russ, and a Basalisk.

This doesn't change the fact that the Skimmer Lists will still run roughshod over the Orks. In case you haven't noticed Eldar & Tau aren't short on ways to kill conventional high AV Tanks (hint: they're called "Railguns" and "Bright Lances").

Orbital
15-02-2007, 01:35
1.) That's not always an option. They can refuse to play that kind of points level, they may not be able to play that kind of points level model wise, and that doesn't work for tournaments OR in escalation games.

2.) Yes, going Las/Plas heavy Marines can effectively Neutralize the 3 Falcons (in general, they can still deliver Firedragon or Harlequin Payloads with relative impunity - there are counters, but it's pretty damn hard). Still you're fighting Eldar :cheese: with Marine :cheese:

3.) This really doesn't change the fact that Orks will still get hosed by skimmer armies. Though this is more because of the fact that Orks are outdated and underpowered (gasp!) and really will struggle against Mech Tau & Eldar (and Necrons with Liths, but that's another issue).

Almost every "balanced" army will have trouble with Skimmer Heavy Lists. Skimmers are really good in general and when Tau & Eldar get ways to make them even more resilient, it just brings it to ridiculous levels. I'm not saying that this is necessarily all THAT bad because without Skimmers and the associated units that go with them (Crisis/Stealths/Harlies/Dragons/etc) Eldar & Tau wouldn't have anything to fight against stupidly powerful builds from the other dex's (Pods, SAFH Marines, Demon Bombs, Godzilla Nids, etc).

Still this doesn't change the fact that Mech Eldar and Mech Tau make me not want to field Orks in GW stores since they're effective and hence popular and just screw over near any build I can make with them because it's a naturally bad matchup. At least Nids can go with 3 Sniper Fex's and have a good shot against the skimmers. Orks in general will get hosed against a competently played Skimmer List.

Ya know what? I was just offering an alternative or an option. I didn't say it was the perfect way to play, I didn't say it was an option for everyone, and -yes- nobody here has forgotten about the Orks. Your ongoing reminders of how bad they have it are not lost on anyone.

It was just a suggestion to help those who are looking to deal with Eldar skimmer-armies. I wasn't putting it forth as the Holy Grail to solve all your problems with Skimmers.

Voodoo Boyz
15-02-2007, 01:56
Ya know what? I was just offering an alternative or an option. I didn't say it was the perfect way to play, I didn't say it was an option for everyone, and -yes- nobody here has forgotten about the Orks. Your ongoing reminders of how bad they have it are not lost on anyone.

It was just a suggestion to help those who are looking to deal with Eldar skimmer-armies. I wasn't putting it forth as the Holy Grail to solve all your problems with Skimmers.

My apologies for coming off harsher than I intended. Just that it seems there are plenty of people in the thread who are of this silly opinion that "oh Orks can do just fine against Skimmer lists" that has been posted many times and it's just frustrating. It's times like this that I just wish that I owned a Skimmer Tau or Eldar army and could give these people my Orks and say "Build any list with my Orks and let me show you just how much of an ******* a skimmer player can be if they wanted".

Heck just PLAYING against these kinds of armies is frustrating if you're not taking a Cheese list yourself. That's what (IMO) makes Skimmer Heavy armies cheesy.

As far as Dealing with Skimmer heavy lists the solutions are pretty easy for most armies, almost all of them revolve on going with cheesy options yourself.

Marines: Four to Five 6 Man Las/Plas squads can do most of your anti-tank work. And as usual, assault cannons are great choices.

Chaos: 6 Man Las/Plas Squads work great here too, you can Take 2 Oblits as an option, and Tank Hunting Havoks with Autocannons are great for killing skimmers.

Nids: You want 3 Carnifex's in Heavy Support, they will all have Enhanced Senses, Barbed Strangler, and a Venom Cannon. Add defensive upgrades to your preference. A Tyrant with a Venom Cannon is also a viable solution.

Dark Eldar: Lances. Lots and Lots of Dark Lances. Web Ways also work to ensure that you can get the jump on any unit not running around in a skimmer, which there should be some in most Skimmer Lists.

Witch Hunters: Just take the 3 Exorcists.

Gaurd: Las/Plas in every troop squad. Lascannon Heavy Support Teams work great in your mandatory HQ too.

Demon Hunters: Induct Guard or use Dreads with Las/ML. In general, get the lube it's going to hurt.

Necrons: Do you even have to ask? Like everything else in the game, throw enough Gauss at it, and it'll go away. And like normal Destroyers & Immortals are excellent choices.

I think that covers the bases pretty well for every army, except Orks. :p

Orbital
15-02-2007, 02:06
My apologies for coming off harsher than I intended. Just that it seems there are plenty of people in the thread who are this silly opinion that "oh Orks can do just fine against Skimmer lists" that has been posted many times and it's just frustrating.

...

I think that covers the bases pretty well for every army, except Orks. :p

For the record, I never mentioned Orks in my post. I don't know how you tied the two together.

I think everyone here who has read even one of your posts knows that you feel strongly about the Orks' lack of anti-Skimmer ability. Your point has been made, I think. I don't play Orks or know their rules well enough to comment, but you're being heard loud and clear.

inane-fedaykin
15-02-2007, 02:10
Eh, I imagine more orks would bitch about rubber hawks.

Voodoo Boyz
15-02-2007, 02:12
Oh more General advice, not so much on killing Skimmers, but rather beating skimmer armies:

Each army has it's own high end skimmer. Hammerheads for Tau, Falcons or Prisims with Holofields for Eldar. Goal Number 1 is to Glance Each of these tanks per turn. Against Eldar this is easy, vs. Tau it'll take some luck and more anti-tank guns.

Tau Once the Hammerheads are glanced at least once, move on to the others, then the Devilfish. In general you should be able to limit the effectiveness of thier skimmers with enough hits. Once each skimmer is glanced, move back to the others. You have a good shot of killing a Hammerhead and it's a lot of points. If you Stun (ie. it can't move) a Tau Skimmer, hold off on shooting it again till the next turn.

Eldar: Accept the fact that you will not be able to kill the Falcons or Prisms. All you can do is glance each one once per turn and hope for the best. Then focus on killing the rest of his army to win. Keep at least 3 fast scoring units hidden away in order to contest whatever the Falcons will try and contest at the end of the game.

If you see Waveserpents CONCENTRATE FIRE ON THEM IMMEDIATELY! These guys can and will go down on a 5+, netting you VP's and stopping them from delivering their cargo (which can be very deadly). These skimmers are generally pretty easy compared to the other skimmers to extract VP's from and to neutralize their battlefield effectiveness.

The real problem is that Falcons can be used as good transports for nasty units and you simply can not stop them. Your only bet is to keep them from coming out. Use fast units to block the rear access hatch (so they can't disembark before the Falcon moves, preventing Banshee's & Harlequins from assaulting that turn) or just sacrifice a squad and be done with it. Firedragons are nasty, but in a squad of 6 they're really only good at killing a Tank. 6 Fire Dragons firing at Marines will be very lucky to kill the Marine squad, even if it's small (especially if they're in cover). You can counter assault the fire dragons with only a few marines and prevent them from shooting other units and possibly eliminate the squad. If you don't have any vehicles then you're pretty safe from Firedragons as a real threat - it's the assault squads you really have to worry about.

And in general - don't take a lot of non-skimmer vehicles yourself. Tau & Eldar can kill conventional tanks fairly easily. Going infantry heavy (especially if you're a MEQ army) is generally a good idea.

Orbital
15-02-2007, 02:19
Even though I think I said this already, I can't recommend highly enough that you get behind the Skimmer you want to kill. Lots of armies have ways to do this (yes, I realize that Orks may have fewer ways to do it than everyone else), but I can honestly say that losing a Skimmer to a hail of S4 weaponry is far from a rarity if they come up from behind.

Lord Malek The Red Knight
15-02-2007, 02:46
If they move to avoid all terrain:eyebrows:......everything in your army can shoot at them.:evilgrin:

a common misconception, but not a real rule, im afraid: you check LOS as normal.


Zaap Gun batteries are terrible. 24" Move or Fire. They're crewed by T2 units and are AV10 if you hit them, and fully kitted out costs over 120 points (not even counting giving them a 5+ Save with a KFF Mek).
dont forget the 4+ Cover Save granted to the crew by standing behind the Gun Models (they are Vehicles). :)

~ Tim

ReveredChaplainDrake
15-02-2007, 02:49
Well there are some notable problems with Skimmers. With my 100-gaunt Tyranids, given the choice I'd face Eldar over Tau in a heartbeat because the only exception to my below theories is the Railhead. (So is the Monolith, but for a different reason; killing infantry effectively enough takes them out due to Phase Out).

The problem with all skimmer Eldar armies is that they tend to be short on anti-infantry. (Which is why Tau is a whole different issue.) Wave Serpents I hear come at 100 pts per, not including guns and crew (who cost a minimum of 60 pts because DA min-squads are 5 bodies). And even then, its best fire rate is going to be a Shuricannon and TLed Scatter Laser, equaling about 7 dead gaunts assuming perfect accuracy, wounds, and no cover. And even then those gun upgrades make the Wave Serpent pretty pricey, like 200 some points all things included. So it pops out and shoots some Gaunts dead. Then I drop my big nasty guns on each one of them, stunning as many as possible with Warp Blasts and Venom Cannons. (Trying to destroy Eldar tanks is pretty futile due to Holofields. Just shake or stun them to stop them from shooting you back next turn.) Heck, I may even blow off some guns and ground them with lucky CC attacks. Aim to destroy, but be content with shake.

Playing horde armies of any kind against skimmers really isn't about destroying the skimmers, but about reducing how much damage you take. Destroying the skimmers is just a bonus. Just prevent the opponent from getting a 10% points lead over you in 6 turns and you can walk out with a draw. Hide your biggest and most expensive guns and come out blazing as soon as the skimmers come out to take shots at your expendables. This should do a number to at least a couple of those tanks, preventing return fire long enough to huddle back into cover and repeat the process until the skimmers are destroyed.

If you really must see a Skimmer-heavy army suffer, play a "take an objective" mission, or an Omega-level mission. Dedicated skimmer transports can't take objectives, making them effectively useless on the Alpha-level, aside from being able to kill some stuff. And in Omega, all skimmers are forced into reserve because they aren't foot infantry.

azimaith
15-02-2007, 03:39
Well, I seem to have touched a nerve!

First of all, I wasn't pointing the finger at any particular army and I realize that some armies are more focused towards a certain playing style.

Then why did you spew out the stupid idea that somehow lists that can't deal with skimmers well are not balanced.



What I was saying is that all the mentioned army types (assault, skimmer or shooty), regardless of what list is used to make them, have an inherent weakness. It's intrinsic to any army that over specializes.

Assault oriented will have trouble with skimmer lists because they can't get hits. It's not because skimmers are too strong. It's not because assault is too weak. It's because both armies are over specialized and in this case, skimmers have the edge over assault.

And when did I ever claim skimmers were too strong? Skimmers are fine, they're certainly not cheese, but as with all specialized lists, they tend to do really well against certain balanced armies, many times to the point where fighting them becomes pointless.



And please don't give me any bull about this or that army not being able to take on some other army. GW has done a pretty good job of making every army playable. I've been shot to pieces by both Orks and Nids. Don't gripe that your rokkits only have 24" range, they have 15 ablative wounds and are assault weapons, I won't even go into looted vehicles! Shooty tyrants can pump out 12 twin linked, re-roll to wound S6 shots and zoanthrops can pack a whollop too.

And? Look you can throw out stats all day long but that doesn't change the fact that not all armies are carbon copies nor should they be. The point was and always has been that mechanized armies are like armoured companies that actually work, which leads to them being very hard to beat unless the opposing force takes alot of shooting. I sense that your lack of experience with both tyranids and orks leaves you believing that all this stuff is just growing off the "free unit" tree that we can just pick as we like. As with all armies is a very careful balance between infantry assaulting units and vehicle damaging units. 100% mech removes the infantry assaulting units from the picture putting your anti-tank units to task against a whole armies worth of tanks rather than a more natural split fo 70/30 or even 50/50.



The problem is that people make over specialized uber lists and then bitch when another over specialized uber list beats them.

My list is not "uber"specialized, which means, suprise suprise! I've got alot of anti-infantry weapons and units, which may as well not even be there against a mechanized army. Once again, this is a silly statement.



And please don't patronize me because I'm a marine player. I've been a proud Space Wolf for over 15 years. Despite some opinions on this board, it's not a crime and I'm not a zit riddled pubescent noob.

Marine players get squad heavy weapons. Massive *freaking* difference bucko.



I play a balanced force, heavy on the mech elements and I am more than proud of my record (52-8-8, btw). I've beat everything under the sun with my balanced list and it's a whole lot of fun.
And they're marines, which means you get squad heavy weapons. Giant freaking difference. How can you be so blind to that.

Getz
15-02-2007, 09:25
Marine players get squad heavy weapons. Massive *freaking* difference bucko.


Actually, to be fair he plays Space Wolves so he doesn't get squad heavy weapons - but for vanilla Marines you are absolutely right.

Sasquatch
15-02-2007, 12:37
Then why did you spew out the stupid idea that somehow lists that can't deal with skimmers well are not balanced.

I never did, I said that 100% skimmer lists are not balanced. Just like all assault and uber shooty lists.


And when did I ever claim skimmers were too strong? Skimmers are fine, they're certainly not cheese, but as with all specialized lists, they tend to do really well against certain balanced armies, many times to the point where fighting them becomes pointless.

This exactly what I'm saying too. All skimmer lists are too specialized and they do very well against certain army types (and against certain elements of a balanced list).


And? Look you can throw out stats all day long but that doesn't change the fact that not all armies are carbon copies nor should they be. The point was and always has been that mechanized armies are like armoured companies that actually work, which leads to them being very hard to beat unless the opposing force takes alot of shooting. I sense that your lack of experience with both tyranids and orks leaves you believing that all this stuff is just growing off the "free unit" tree that we can just pick as we like. As with all armies is a very careful balance between infantry assaulting units and vehicle damaging units. 100% mech removes the infantry assaulting units from the picture putting your anti-tank units to task against a whole armies worth of tanks rather than a more natural split fo 70/30 or even 50/50.

Please don't question my experience with either Tyranids or Orks. As I said, I've been playing for 15 years, so I've faced just about everything.

Be careful with your own statements. While skimmers are a pain for ground units, there are many tyranid units that can tear through standard mechanized elements like a hot knife through butter.

That said, armored companies are just another form of over-specialization and I agree that they are a pain.


My list is not "uber"specialized, which means, suprise suprise! I've got alot of anti-infantry weapons and units, which may as well not even be there against a mechanized army. Once again, this is a silly statement.

I wasn't pointing to your army or commenting on it's composition. I was making general statements about armies that over specialize in assault elements. If you play a balanced list, I applaud you and keep up the good example.


Marine players get squad heavy weapons. Massive *freaking* difference bucko.

....

And they're marines, which means you get squad heavy weapons. Giant freaking difference. How can you be so blind to that.

Don't call me bucko.

And while you're commenting on my lack of knowledge regarding Orks and Nids, maybe you should re-examine your knowledge of Space Wolves.

I don't have tactical squads, I don't have squad heavy weapons. In my 1850 list I have a grand total of three lascannons and they're all on my predator.

Space Wolves are remarkably like Nids when it comes to AT. We have to pick and choose among HS and Elite slots to provide AT support and most of our units are geared to taking down infantry. Our most reliable way to take down tanks is to get into melta range or engage them in CC and hope a power fist gets through.

So while I may be some poor ignorant marine player, I do sympathize with your point of view.

Voodoo Boyz
15-02-2007, 13:05
Actually, to be fair he plays Space Wolves so he doesn't get squad heavy weapons - but for vanilla Marines you are absolutely right.

He's correct in that Marine players have ways to stand up to Skimmer Lists, but when you see lots of small Tactical Squads firing anti-tank heavy weapons all game people get real pissy. Look at how many threads there are bitching about Las/Plas squads or small marine squads with heavy weapons.

As far as space wolves, that's why so many people on here want to see them get a new book. They're considered underpowered because they can't deal with heavy armor. Heck Nids do have a better time against Skimmer armies than Space Wolves will because it's fairly easy to neutralize a Long Fang squad or a Predator as opposed to stopping a Carnifex or a Tyrant.

Stu-Rat
15-02-2007, 13:42
Done and done. :D

My ork Waagh Council is neigh invulnerable to skimmers and as an army, they come with 14 rokkits. Skimmers rarely make it past turn 4 against this list.
Statistically, you need 18 rokkit shots to down a single AV12 Tau skimmer (the less said about Eldar, the better).

Stu-Rat
15-02-2007, 14:17
I'd still prefer a battlacannon to a railgun - it'll always hit something, and will generally penetrate vehicles too.
Say what? A Battlecannon has a 33% chance of hitting. A Railgun has a 66% chance. A Battlecannon only has a 33% chance of getting a pen result against AV14. A Railgun has a 50% chance.

inane-fedaykin
15-02-2007, 14:18
Statistically, you need 18 rokkit shots to down a single AV12 Tau skimmer (the less said about Eldar, the better).

When someone was saying that you can field 50+ rokkits in an army, that's not too bad.

Voodoo Boyz
15-02-2007, 14:40
A Battlecannon will never be able to penetrate an AV14 vehicle, it's S8.

You can fit 50 Rokkits in an army, more even, but they won't be really useful and will be in small squads if you get that many. You will never be able to get 50 Rokkit shots off on a given turn vs. a Skimmer army. They can run away furhter and faster than you can move and shoot them. Plus there's the physical deployment of that many models and the fact that they're on T4 bodies with a 6+ Armor save or at best a 5+ Cover save, which I'm sure cuts into the Rokkit count.

Wraithbored
15-02-2007, 21:40
I've been thinking and I have somewhat of a solution for you Nid players, try some deepstriking Raveners with spinefists(shorter range yes but 3 shots) or devourers(better strength but only 1 shot). Deepstrike em to the rear of the falcon/prism/serpent and shoot. azimaetih, Kahadras and others do you think this could help nids vs. a vp denial mech Eldar army?(and even mech Tau)

GraveDancer
15-02-2007, 22:04
A Battlecannon will never be able to penetrate an AV14 vehicle, it's S8..

i thought ordnance weapons never inflict glancing hits?


Edit: my bad, just read the rules then and i guess ordnance still rolls on the glancing table.

Orbital
15-02-2007, 23:20
A Battlecannon will never be able to penetrate an AV14 vehicle, it's S8.

I'm not sure I'm following you. Can you explain why?

Lord Malek The Red Knight
15-02-2007, 23:41
I'm not sure I'm following you. Can you explain why?
well 8 + 6 = 14, not over 14. ;)

unless you meant "he forgot Tank Hunters, Melta Weapons, AP1 etc etc...!":p

... although im not sure if a Battle Cannon can have such rules applied to it... :confused:

~ Tim

Orbital
15-02-2007, 23:51
well 8 + 6 = 14, not over 14. ;)

unless you meant "he forgot Tank Hunters, Melta Weapons, AP1 etc etc...!":p

... although im not sure if a Battle Cannon can have such rules applied to it... :confused:

~ Tim

Duh. Yes, I get it now.

He doesn't mean "penetrate" as in "crack the armor and do some damage". He means "penetrate" as in "roll on the penetration table".

I'll be ok. Just type slower, everyone. :)

Voodoo Boyz
15-02-2007, 23:53
I'm not sure I'm following you. Can you explain why?

A Battlecannon is S8. Ordinance rolls 2D6 pick the highest for penetration.

The highest you can get for penetration is a 6, 8+6=14 = Glancing AV14. Not 100% pertinent to the problem of Skimmers (well, there is the new Master of Ravenwing Speeder) but it was something that apparently a lot of different people thought would happen.

Doh beaten by Tim.

Rogue 7
16-02-2007, 00:04
The killer is 24" Move or Fire. Tau Skimmers LAUGH AT YOU and stay far away. Heck Falcons can do the same if they take the right guns (and the guns I've seen on Falcons are long range ~36").


Important Point- only the Piranha is a fast skimmer. Multitrackers allow Devilfish and Hammerheads to FIRE as though they were fast skimmers- I.E.- they can move 12" and still fire. Moving 24" and firing would be godly, which is why it isn't allowed.

azimaith
16-02-2007, 01:14
I've been thinking and I have somewhat of a solution for you Nid players, try some deepstriking Raveners with spinefists(shorter range yes but 3 shots) or devourers(better strength but only 1 shot). Deepstrike em to the rear of the falcon/prism/serpent and shoot. azimaetih, Kahadras and others do you think this could help nids vs. a vp denial mech Eldar army?(and even mech Tau)
Thats a very pricey and dangeorus option as spinefists have a 12" range and you'll want rending claws on them to help finish the job. Relying on a 6 to pen on a 12" gun against the back armor of a skimmer while deep striking a 46 point model doesn't seem like a good idea. Even if you did glance it, the ravener is going to die with an armor save of 5+.

Deathspitters, no devourers, who can't hurt the rear armor, may be a better option since they can reach out and touch them at long range, but even then you've got one shot at BS3 with a 5+ to glance rear armor for a 46+ point model.

We don't need to use raveners, we can use gargoyles with their fleshborers and then just use jump pack +fleet of wing to get them into range. It will be horrendously expensive both cash and point wise but it stands a better chance of doing something to rear armor. You could also use deep striking spore mines, rear armor with a bio-acid mine, even with only a partial touch of the template is still S3 2D6 penetration (as it *always* rolls 3+2D6) and they cost less.

None of these are especially attractive, all relying on really lucky rolling. If you want to take down skimmers your best bet is gunfexes, as many as you can fit and a hive tyrant with a venom cannon+Deathspitter (as it is higher strenght. If you want to make this an even better skimmer hunting package you could give it wings so it could shoot at side armor or even rear armor more easily, but then you sacrifice your one winged tyrant.

Either way your going to points sink a whole lot of your troops that would normally go into assaulting infantry or dealing with other armies to make it more skimmer defensible.


Important Point- only the Piranha is a fast skimmer. Multitrackers allow Devilfish and Hammerheads to FIRE as though they were fast skimmers- I.E.- they can move 12" and still fire. Moving 24" and firing would be godly, which is why it isn't allowed.
Thats why he said "Move or fire"

fazzgd
16-02-2007, 01:49
When point it raises, solution

15~20+ ?

Sildani
16-02-2007, 01:56
Eh? Was that a Zen koan or something?

nightgant98c
16-02-2007, 02:34
I personally have no problem with skimmers. Sure they are tough for some armies to deal with, but I play Tau, and assault heavy armies eat us for breakfast. You do the best you can, then go on to the next game.

Zzarchov
16-02-2007, 02:51
The problem with skimmers is the ridiculous skimmer moving fast rule.

Faster moving vehicles are in more danger if they are hit, not less.


Better skimmer moving fast:

Skimmers moving more than 6 inches require you to reroll successful hits (ie, if you have BS4, reroll all your first rolls of 3+), but treat all glancing hits as penetrating, and all penetrating hits as ordinance penetrating (if your in a jet going full tilt and you blow into a mountain your doomed).

Orbital
16-02-2007, 02:53
The problem with skimmers is the ridiculous skimmer moving fast rule.

Faster moving vehicles are in more danger if they are hit, not less.


Better skimmer moving fast:

Skimmers moving more than 6 inches require you to reroll successful hits (ie, if you have BS4, reroll all your first rolls of 3+), but treat all glancing hits as penetrating, and all penetrating hits as ordinance penetrating (if your in a jet going full tilt and you blow into a mountain your doomed).

...and people talk about the Wave Serpent being a deathtrap now.

nightgant98c
16-02-2007, 03:07
That is really rough on skimmers. If nothing else, getting shot isn't the same as running into a mountain.

Rioghan Murchadha
16-02-2007, 03:30
That is really rough on skimmers. If nothing else, getting shot isn't the same as running into a mountain.

Meh... Wall of rock, wall of lead... what's the diff? :angel:

uatu13
16-02-2007, 03:37
I totally think all skimmer armies are definitely broken. I just played a nicely balanced Chaos army against an all Skimmer Mech tau army and it was ridiculous! Basically unless I knew that I was playing against skimmers and took a billion lascannons, there was no way I could possibly defeat them.

I think there's a couple problem with skimmers as they are now. First off, skimmers cost about the same points as a regular vehicle, so it's not like people are paying for the skimmer ability. Since they can pretty much never be hit in CC, then most armies are by defealt unable to do anything against them (tyranids, blood angels, orks, etc). I think one way to fix this and add an extra element to the game would be to allow jump infantry to hit skimmers on a 4+ or something (like the Swooping Hawks intercept, but universal). It's true they tried to factor in the negative with skimmers that they're destroyed if immobilised, but the two major skimmer using armies (eldar and tau) both have super cheap ways to combat this downside, so it may as well not even exist for them.

Something definitely needs to be done about skimmers, the're WAY overpowered for their points as things are now.

inane-fedaykin
16-02-2007, 04:06
All eldar skimmers are max av12/12/10, extremely expensive and you're never going to see more then 5 unless you're in a massive game. I honestly can't see this being broken against anything but ork which is debatable. In conclusion, play more and get better.

Orbital
16-02-2007, 04:08
I've often seen seven skimmers in 2000 points. Made me feel a little dirty to see it :)

inane-fedaykin
16-02-2007, 04:12
1700 being the typical average game size, the extra 300 points = 1.5 falcons or 2.7ish wave serpents.

Azuremen
16-02-2007, 04:28
I totally think all skimmer armies are definitely broken. I just played a nicely balanced Chaos army against an all Skimmer Mech tau army and it was ridiculous! Basically unless I knew that I was playing against skimmers and took a billion lascannons, there was no way I could possibly defeat them.

I think there's a couple problem with skimmers as they are now. First off, skimmers cost about the same points as a regular vehicle, so it's not like people are paying for the skimmer ability. Since they can pretty much never be hit in CC, then most armies are by defealt unable to do anything against them (tyranids, blood angels, orks, etc). I think one way to fix this and add an extra element to the game would be to allow jump infantry to hit skimmers on a 4+ or something (like the Swooping Hawks intercept, but universal). It's true they tried to factor in the negative with skimmers that they're destroyed if immobilised, but the two major skimmer using armies (eldar and tau) both have super cheap ways to combat this downside, so it may as well not even exist for them.

Something definitely needs to be done about skimmers, the're WAY overpowered for their points as things are now.

You crazy? We don't pay extra for skimmers? A low as you can get Wave Serpent starts at the cost of TWO Rhinos. Tag on some goodies, you can easily buy another squad of what you are carrying, or field 3 Rhinos. Falcons average 4 times the cost of a Rhino with the standard upgrades, or 50% more than most tracked tanks.

And that el cheapo saving grace for immbolised runs about 20% of the cost of the skimmer for Eldar. A fully meched army is likst 7 skimmers... you can easily field 20 rhinos for that :p. Which you can't, because of FOC, but you can put every squad in a Rhino that can be, and create the awesome moving wall of cover from hell.

And the cheapest skimmers are the DE Raiders, coming in at 10% more than a Rhino, and blowing up just about as easily. You can chuck rocks at Raiders and get them out of the air.

uatu13
16-02-2007, 09:54
Yeah, and your 180 point Falcon will live about 600% times longer than any rhino, predator, or pretty much any other land based vehicle. Always glancing, choosing the lowest, and ignoring shaken?! Yeah, you're right, you're definitely paying costs to justify this! LOL

I've played 1800 point games with 3 hammerheads and 3 devilfish. You want to tell me how the hell I"m supposed to use any tactics to be this with a CC army? The best tactician in the world would have his ass made into a hat. Now that's what I called broken!

Getz
16-02-2007, 09:56
I've played 1800 point games with 3 hammerheads and 3 devilfish. You want to tell me how the hell I"m supposed to use any tactics to be this with a CC army? The best tactician in the world would have his ass made into a hat. Now that's what I called broken!

What army do you use?

Voodoo Boyz
16-02-2007, 10:56
As much as I hate the skimmer armies, you guys are getting way off base.

They pay for their skimmers out the yin-yang. Falcons come in at 200 points or a little more for really nice guns.

Waveserpents come in around 120 or so points kitted out right.

Devilfish with offensive upgrades comes in around 120 Points.

Hammerheads clock in 180 points with a Railgun.

The problem is that they are so hard to kill. They're harder to kill than a Land Raider or a Monolith for most armies. You pay the points but you get more resiliency than those points should bring you.

Falcons & Fireprism's with Holofields have a very large chance of making it alive to the end of the game, locking away Victory Points. The entire "competitive" Eldar list is based on the fact that they can deny you huge chunks of Victory Points, while inflicting enough damage on you to ensure they get the win.

Also, Mech Eldar & Mech Tau are the reasons that MOST assault armies aren't worth bringing to the tournaments. What are DE supposed to do when they can't assault anything because they're in skimmers? Sure you can get to a few crisis suits or some Jetbikes, but after they die, your expensive squads are going to get shot up to pieces by the skimmers that you just can't stop.

Ditto for Orks, Non-Zilla Nids, and even some non demon-bomb Chaos assault armies. I mean when played correctly (ie playing to WAAC) it can get rediculous the things a skimmer list can do to assault armies, ESPECIALLY assault armies w/o Power Armor.

Getz
16-02-2007, 11:10
Also, Mech Eldar & Mech Tau are the reasons that MOST assault armies aren't worth bringing to the tournaments.

Interesting you should say that, as Mech Tau evolved as just about the only way of making Tau competitive in a game enviroment dominated by the assault phase.

Captain Micha
16-02-2007, 12:05
skimmers=not cheap.

its just that tracked vehicles suck so hard is all.

and any time we get 'immobilised' guess what happens. CRASH destroyed...... sucks.....

Master Jeridian
16-02-2007, 12:07
Dominated by the Assault Phase?

Out of my 6 games at the GT I only entered close combat in around 2-3- and I was using a normal SM army (2 Pred, 2 Tornados, 1 Master, Infiltrating Tacticals). 4th Ed is no longer dominated by the Assault Phase (that was 3rd), it is dominated by firepower and mobility- epitomised by Skimmer Tanks.

This is why assault based armies suffer and skimmer shooty armies excel.

Captain Micha
16-02-2007, 12:11
just as it should be. I'm sorry I don't see modern armies closing to close range assaults anymore. yes they still train for it but you know what? guns kill people much faster and much easier than beating someone.

assault armies bah. you can deep strike with them if you have to. there -are- ways around it. contrary to what common belief apparently is.

the shooting phase dominates for other reasons... abundance of armor shredding weapons.

Why bother trying to hit someone in cc when guess what. they still usually get a save..... just shoot em in the face with plasma... they only get one save then

Master Jeridian
16-02-2007, 12:35
I never said Assault should be most important- I merely stated that it isn't, that shooting, and being mobile whilst shooting are far more important, whether this is a good thing or bad.


assault armies bah. you can deep strike with them if you have to.

Lol, can't wait for all the Deep Striking Ork armies you'll have to face.

Anyway, it is true that shooting at some one is far more effective than running at them with a knife (if their shooting back).

But GW still needs to make armies with no other choice (Orks, non-Godzilla Nids, etc) viable or they become redundant and joke armies. This could be done by making them cheaper (reducing Ork boy cost for example) so that there are more of them for the Shooty army to face, add quirky movement bonuses like Waaagh! and Animosity from Fantasy, etc.

Just saying 'shooting is better' doesn't suddenly make investing in an Ork army worthwhile, or do you really mean 'nobody play Orks'?

Budro
16-02-2007, 12:38
Take skimmers away from tau and you have a list that is going to suck hard core. It won't be fun to play and it won't be fun to play against. It will be a gunline that can't move at all. Nerf the skimmers and you have nerfed the army. Eldar at least have a few other things they can do.

I play both a Mech Tau (no allies) and an Ork list. I win with both. Armies I hate to fight with Orks? Only Mech Tau, and a 2 lith/ 2 Lord Necron army. Armies I don't like to fight with Tau? Necrons.

My personal experience over a large number of years is that the only armies I personally have a difficult time with for Orks are the two above. Over the past year playing mech tau, crons are the only list that I have not beaten.

Voodoo Boyz
16-02-2007, 12:45
Interesting you should say that, as Mech Tau evolved as just about the only way of making Tau competitive in a game enviroment dominated by the assault phase.

Oh yeah man it's completely true.

FACT: Tau suck in Close Combat. It's part of their design.

FACT: Going Mech Tau greatly eliminates the chances that your units will get stuck in Close Combat when played right.

This is why Mech Tau is so popular and effective at tournaments. You eliminate your weaknesses and get to emphasize your strengths. You do this by ensuring you generally won't be in assault through battlesuits on the ground and fragile troops in very resilient skimmers.

As a result, 99% of most assault armies will never be able to touch you (demon bombs can still catch Tau, but there are counters, etc). As a result, you can just walk with impunity over Ork armies or Nid armies that don't take their most efficient shooting options in multiple redundant units (Sniper Fex's in Heavy, shooty tyrant).

I don't exactly begrudge Tau or Eldar too much, because when this game is dominated by other power army lists, without going Mech and Skimmer heavy they're going to be screwed in tournaments or competitive environments.

Course all this does is limit the field of viable armies even more than it is now. Khorne armies skimp on beserkers and max out on Bikes & Demons - because they can get into assaults better. Nids take more shooting options than they used to have to, and even then they're limited to one (sometimes two) choices for effectiveness.

YES, Assault can be very powerful, but it's very easy to ensure assaults never happen when a shooty army is played right. I understand in 3rd ed things were different, but now that's not the case anymore.

Voodoo Boyz
16-02-2007, 12:47
Take skimmers away from tau and you have a list that is going to suck hard core. It won't be fun to play and it won't be fun to play against. It will be a gunline that can't move at all. Nerf the skimmers and you have nerfed the army. Eldar at least have a few other things they can do.

I play both a Mech Tau (no allies) and an Ork list. I win with both. Armies I hate to fight with Orks? Only Mech Tau, and a 2 lith/ 2 Lord Necron army. Armies I don't like to fight with Tau? Necrons.

My personal experience over a large number of years is that the only armies I personally have a difficult time with for Orks are the two above. Over the past year playing mech tau, crons are the only list that I have not beaten.

I'm taking it that you haven't played against a Mech Eldar army with your Orks.

It ain't pretty man, lemme tell you.

Marshal2Crusaders
16-02-2007, 12:55
Mech Tau and Eldar are the Fluffy Ways to fight them, It is really tough to beat and makes for a fun game. I have never been able to beat this list but it is by far the most fun to play against, it keeps you on your toes. Assault armies can't really hurt them at all, but that makes you be smarter with your selection. To get rid of these options would be anti-productive, these lists are the ultimate anti-MEQ. what I want to see is a Mech Tau fight a Mech Eldar Army, that would be a bloodbath.

inane-fedaykin
16-02-2007, 12:58
You seem to be forgetting that one pen is about all a skimmer can take before going belly up. Holofields or not, every time you get past the armor you're at least making sure they aren't doing anything next round. That is when you pound the ever loving christ out of em.

Voodoo Boyz
16-02-2007, 12:59
Mech Tau and Eldar are the Fluffy Ways to fight them, It is really tough to beat and makes for a fun game. I have never been able to beat this list but it is by far the most fun to play against, it keeps you on your toes. Assault armies can't really hurt them at all, but that makes you be smarter with your selection. To get rid of these options would be anti-productive, these lists are the ultimate anti-MEQ. what I want to see is a Mech Tau fight a Mech Eldar Army, that would be a bloodbath.

Blood Bath? It'd be like watching a Sissy Fight! Shooting shooting shooting, bam...boom....

"Crew Stunned, Crew Stunned, Crew Stunned.......Oh look Weapon Destroyed!"

Everything in those armies revolves around skimmers being resilient and/or turboing around and hiding in terrain (JSJ, etc).

It'd be a cat and mouse game, but it'd mostly be pretty boring as far as actual "damage" done.

Voodoo Boyz
16-02-2007, 13:03
You seem to be forgetting that one pen is about all a skimmer can take before going belly up. Holofields or not, every time you get past the armor you're at least making sure they aren't doing anything next round. That is when you pound the ever loving christ out of em.

Skimmers don't get penned. Skimmers only ever get glanced, that's the problem.

Yes, you can get unlucky and not have enough terrain to hide your skimmers behind and can get hosed on first turn, but after your skimmers get moving (or if you play escalation) they're only ever getting glanced.

Yes Tau can get Stunned and thus be penned next turn, but Eldar Falcons/Waveserpents will always be moving due to the upgrades they can take.

Also even if the skimmer isn't doing anything it's still keeping you from shooting the troops inside it (aside from the hammerhead). That saves a LOT of victory points at the end of the game, so if they can damage you just a little they can win out on VP's at the end because you can't kill their skimmers.

Plus even when you have to shoot, you get shaken, move away behind terrain, next turn you get to come out and shoot again, get shaken again, move away - repeat until end of game and then go claim/contest an objective.

THAT is how skimmer armies work.

inane-fedaykin
16-02-2007, 13:05
Yeah, pen was a typo there.

Getz
16-02-2007, 13:15
Dominated by the Assault Phase?

Out of my 6 games at the GT I only entered close combat in around 2-3- and I was using a normal SM army (2 Pred, 2 Tornados, 1 Master, Infiltrating Tacticals). 4th Ed is no longer dominated by the Assault Phase (that was 3rd), it is dominated by firepower and mobility- epitomised by Skimmer Tanks.



YES, Assault can be very powerful, but it's very easy to ensure assaults never happen when a shooty army is played right. I understand in 3rd ed things were different, but now that's not the case anymore.

Perhaps I should have made myself clearer. When I mentioned a game enviroment dominated by assault, I was refering to 3rd ed. Mech Tau hasn't really changed since it first appeared (the only new elements really being Piranhas, Warfish and the fact that my Hammerheads can shoot their Burst Cannons on the go) but the metagame has changed around them.

I also thnk perhaps my tone has been misinterpreted. My point was really only a mild observation on why Mech Tau came into being in the first place rather than an argument directed at anyone in particular.

Sildani
16-02-2007, 13:17
Why didn't we see all this bellyaching with the 3rd ed. Eldar Codex? Back when the holofield/spirit stone combo actually allowed our Falcons to flat-out ignore some 30% or so of all glancing hits? When we had the Crystal Targeting Matrix which allowed us to have pop-up attacks? Surely reducing base prices for our tanks by 5-10 points and giving them a piece of wargear which allows them to "land" isn't that bad.

Realize that the tank you're firing at probably costs 150-220 points. Realize that, unlike before, when you hit one you will affect it, unlike the old days. Out tanks have actually gotten weaker, while not really becoming less expensive.

So, again, where's all this vitriol suddenly coming from?

Voodoo Boyz
16-02-2007, 13:34
Why didn't we see all this bellyaching with the 3rd ed. Eldar Codex? Back when the holofield/spirit stone combo actually allowed our Falcons to flat-out ignore some 30% or so of all glancing hits? When we had the Crystal Targeting Matrix which allowed us to have pop-up attacks? Surely reducing base prices for our tanks by 5-10 points and giving them a piece of wargear which allows them to "land" isn't that bad.

Realize that the tank you're firing at probably costs 150-220 points. Realize that, unlike before, when you hit one you will affect it, unlike the old days. Out tanks have actually gotten weaker, while not really becoming less expensive.

So, again, where's all this vitriol suddenly coming from?

Because Wraithlords used to be more resilient and cheaper in 3rd Edition, and thus they were bitched about because they were used more and they were safer.

Once squads with powerfists couldn't have their veterans targeted in assault, and more and more armies took static lascannon lines, Wraithlords became less of a problem.

In 4th Edition when your tank could move and fire one primary weapon & all defensive guns (very different from 3rd ed) the Falcon became a LOT more attractive with the Wraithlord becoming less effective due to the changes in game rules.

Plus while you COULD ignore part of the glancing tables in 3rd, there was the 50/50 shot that you could be Stunned, and thus not be able to move next turn and be penetrated - loosing a 200 Point tank. The risks were very small but still there. This didn't change anything, the 3rd Ed Eldar lists that dominated the GT's in 4th edition had max Falcons and then went with other options (Seer Councils, maxed out Vypers, min/maxed Guardian Squads).

Now with the new Eldar Dex Falcons became less offensive (no more BS4 upgrades, 2 Shot Starcannons) and they took away the ability to ignore damage results. However they got other upgrades like Spirit Stones now working like Extra Armor, meaning you can not stop a Falcon from moving like you could before. The chances of actually gaining VP's from a Falcon went down drastically. It's now much less offensive, but it's better at just brute force delivering cargo troops (Fire Dragons, Harlies, Banshee's) and Denying Victory Points.

Eldar dominated GT's in 3rd Ed, and they still do now. The only difference now is that they have more points to spend on Falcons because the Seer Councils are gone.

Getz
16-02-2007, 13:35
Blood Bath? It'd be like watching a Sissy Fight! Shooting shooting shooting, bam...boom....

"Crew Stunned, Crew Stunned, Crew Stunned.......Oh look Weapon Destroyed!"

Everything in those armies revolves around skimmers being resilient and/or turboing around and hiding in terrain (JSJ, etc).

It'd be a cat and mouse game, but it'd mostly be pretty boring as far as actual "damage" done.

Actually, I played this very game on Wednesday. By turn four all my Hammerheads were dead (S Hawks with intercept - Fire Dragons getting a ton of Glancing hits) and the only dead Eldar tank was a Wave Serpent I'd penetrated on the first turn. The fact that you can never stun an Eldar Tank with Spirit stones plus the Holofields means that although it's very easy to supress their firepower is it is well nigh impossible to kill them - or more pertinently stop them getting their payload of aspect warriors into position...

Even with the benefit of Glances only and Decoy Launchers, Tau Skimmers are not that much more durable than well armoured ground pounders - Eldar Skimmers are a whole different ball game - the odds of killing them without first immobilising them are 1/36, Tau vehicles will be killed by 2/9 glancing hits.

Nevertheless - I won, mainly by butchering everything without an AV and getting all my Firewarriors into the enemy deployment zone (we were playing Recon).


Why didn't we see all this bellyaching with the 3rd ed. Eldar Codex? Back when the holofield/spirit stone combo actually allowed our Falcons to flat-out ignore some 30% or so of all glancing hits? When we had the Crystal Targeting Matrix which allowed us to have pop-up attacks? Surely reducing base prices for our tanks by 5-10 points and giving them a piece of wargear which allows them to "land" isn't that bad.

Realize that the tank you're firing at probably costs 150-220 points. Realize that, unlike before, when you hit one you will affect it, unlike the old days. Out tanks have actually gotten weaker, while not really becoming less expensive.

So, again, where's all this vitriol suddenly coming from?

To a certain extent I agree with you here. I don't personally play Eldar but I play against them a fair amount and it is much easier to supress Eldar skimmers than it used to be - however, it's also much harder to outright kill them thanks to the new spirit stones rule.

Voodoo Boyz
16-02-2007, 13:47
Actually, I played this very game on Wednesday. By turn four all my Hammerheads were dead (S Hawks with intercept - Fire Dragons getting a ton of Glancing hits) and the only dead Eldar tank was a Wave Serpent I'd penetrated on the first turn. The fact that you can never stun an Eldar Tank with Spirit stones plus the Holofields means that although it's very easy to supress their firepower is it is well nigh impossible to kill them - or more pertinently stop them getting their payload of aspect warriors into position...

Even with the benefit of Glances only and Decoy Launchers, Tau Skimmers are not that much more durable than well armoured ground pounders - Eldar Skimmers are a whole different ball game - the odds of killing them without first immobilising them are 1/36, Tau vehicles will be killed by 2/9 glancing hits.

Nevertheless - I won, mainly by butchering everything without an AV and getting all my Firewarriors into the enemy deployment zone (we were playing Recon).

Kudos to you on your good game then. I was wrong in what I said because games like that will really only come about when certain army types (that I'm used to seeing) come to fight each other. There are varients to the Tau/Eldar Mech builds that can make for more interesting games vs. each other.

To be fair though, I did state numerous times that Tau skimmers weren't anywhere near as bad as the Eldar ones - precisely because they can be shaken and because of other reasons.

A Railhead costs 180 Points kitted out. If you glance that AV13 Front, you have a 50/50 shot of something very bad happening to that skimmer:

1-2: GOOD
3: BAD, can't move, can't shoot, can be penned next turn!
4: BAD! No more Railgun
5: Semi-Safe! Spin the wheel Again!
6: BAD! Dead.

Bout a 50/50 shot of coming out OK.

Still it's AV13 that has to get glanced, which is tough when you have 3 Hammerheads (ie. The core of a Mech Tau build) and your opponent didn't take a ridiculous amount of anti-tank guns. Still it's what makes the list work and it's beatable but competitive.

This doesn't change the fact that it runs roughshod over certain armies that aren't really equipped to deal with it (Orks Primarily, other Assault Based Armies).

Curufew
16-02-2007, 13:52
I think the reason why skimmers seem so powerful is that vehicles on track have become very weak with the removal of the hull down rule. On you only get hull down on a 4+ .

What I suggest now is a new skimmer rule that I thought of. It basically goes like this.

For skimmers moving more than 6", units that are trying to fire at the skimmer suffer a -1 to hit modifier. If the skimmer is hit, on a 4+ all penetrating shots are demoted to glancing shots. So is this idea plausible?

Voodoo Boyz
16-02-2007, 13:57
I think the reason why skimmers seem so powerful is that vehicles on track have become very weak with the removal of the hull down rule. On you only get hull down on a 4+ .

What I suggest now is a new skimmer rule that I thought of. It basically goes like this.

For skimmers moving more than 6", units that are trying to fire at the skimmer suffer a -1 to hit modifier. If the skimmer is hit, on a 4+ all penetrating shots are demoted to glancing shots. So is this idea plausible?

Its actually a very good idea, but to balance it you'd probably have to drop the cost of skimmers drastically in order to reflect their newfound fragility.

The real problem, especially for Eldar, is that while their stuff is expensive, they come with a very strong guarantee that they will still be scoring at the end of a 6 turn game. In a game like 40k, if you can get a unit that you can near guarantee that will survive 6 turns it doesn't matter how many points it costs. This is the same reason the Seer Council was overpowered in 3rd Edition - not only were they a very killy unit, but they also were near impossible to get VP's from and they'd be scoring at the end of the game.

Getz
16-02-2007, 14:00
This doesn't change the fact that it runs roughshod over certain armies that aren't really equipped to deal with it (Orks Primarily, other Assault Based Armies).

Oh Christ no - no arguments from me there! I've run roughshod over Dakkagor's Orks so many times with my Tau it isn't even funny any more...

As it stands Orks have a very tough time against any Skimmer heavy force. They can't put out the volume of hits needed to take down a Falcon, nor do they have the range needed to tackle a Hammerhead.

Captain Micha
16-02-2007, 14:40
Orks just suck hard now period. hence why gw picked them as the race the tau had all the experience smacking around with before any other race. so their little tau bubble of confidence in their ability to beat all comers would be popped by the Imperium its not a problem with skimmers... it's a problem of Orks

Budro
16-02-2007, 15:32
Yeah, I played a Mech eldar force with my Mech Tau a couple weeks ago. It was one of the most interesting and challenging games I've played in a long time. I won through being able to kill off the majority of his non-skimmer part of his force and playing point denial with the majority of mine.

Voodoo: no, haven't had a chance yet to face the new eldar with my orks. We'll see how it goes sometime in the next couple months.

Personally I don't see a problem with skimmers, I see a problem with orks facing skimmers (and IW, necrons, drop pods...). Hm, maybe a new dex GW?

Lancaster
16-02-2007, 16:17
Does anyone else feel that armies can field all ... armies take the fun out of the game. They seem to take all the fun out of terrain placed on the table. Tank traps/ barbed wire/ buildings dont channel or work the proper way if someone has an all...

Sounds like an anti MeQ arguement when you don't know the topic

Mort
28-02-2007, 13:48
of course they are annoying and fast and so on...but thats the way they have to be: they are getting on your nerves because they are fast,take only glancing hits (even if a demolisher hits them,can anybody explain that to me,grrrr) and they ignore terrain whereever they go. take their speed and that ability to ignore terrain away,and you get a pretty boring tank-they cost their points,and their armies especially eldar need them to keep the pressure up and avoid the "fire-echo" they would get otherwise. and,by the way,isnt it logical that a simmer SKIMS over trees and boulders...

MegaPope
28-02-2007, 16:38
I have no objection to the way skimmers move, or their speed, or their ability to ignore terrain (except if they land in it...) After all, this is what makes them different to ground vehicles, and they never block LOS while mobile, so I can still fry that FW squad sitting behind their 'Fish.

What irritates is their capacity to shrug off damage so easily. OK, 6 to hit in combat - frustrating but probably justifiable.

But only suffering glances if moving over 6"...this is truly annoying. Back when being immobilised was actually dangerous for skimmers, this had some justification. Now, though, I think only the Landspeeder actually crashes when immobilised. Everyone else seems to have some kind of reasonably priced landing gear at the least.

Perhaps it would be better these days to rephrase that rule as: "When moving over 6" a skimmer always counts as being Obscured, even if it is in the open, to account for its speed. Hence, if struck and penetrated by an attack while moving over 6", it may take an Obscured roll to reduce the damage to a Glancing hit. If it fails this roll, it will be penetrated by the hit, and suffer accordingly."

The fact remains that skimmers heavier than Landspeeders are disproportionately tough (Eldar ones moreso than Tau, I must stress). A friend of mine recently acquired some old Armorcast Tempest Grav-Tanks, which he uses as FW Scorpions. Scorpions have multiple Structure Points and a 4+ invulnerable save on every facing. Despite them only having Armour 12 at best, even causing lasting damage to them is so hard it's not even funny.

To put it another way, in a recent battle, these tanks got used alongside an Armorcast Phantom titan(!) The titan got wasted in short order, despite receiving only half the firepower the tanks did, and having a 4+ Invulnerable save of its own. This was a fairly open field, so cover didn't really play a decisive role in survivability. The fact was, the Tempests/Scorpions survived because they were skimmers. Everything that got through the saves (Skimmers of any size with 50% effectiveness Inv Saves - BAD idea) didn't do anything lasting. They didn't lose any SPs. Only one of them lost its weapon.

Now, I know that most people will never face a war machine, let alone a skimming or flying one, but I think this comparison illustrates my problem with skimmers nicely.

Faster than ground vehicles? Fine by me.
Ignore terrain when moving? No problem.
Hard to hit in CC? Annoying, but justifiable (unless they're standing absolutely still when charged, not having moved at all the previous turn.)
Tougher than equivalent ground-based vehicles? I don't think so.

Adept
28-02-2007, 16:43
I think it works (within the current framework of the rules) quite nicely. A skimmer is really more akin to an aircraft than a land based tank, and trying to shoot one down should be like trying to pop an aircraft with an anti-tank rifle. Really frikkin hard.

Of course, ideally you would simply give skimmers a -2 'to hit' penalty when they move fast. But modifiers are simply out of the question for the current edition.

Mort
28-02-2007, 16:55
i agree that its perhaps not the best solution to give them glancing hits...such a penalty would be better,but i really dont want the old 2nd ed. days with all the unnecessary maths back. i know its hard to take a well equipped falcon down (face that problem on a weekly base) but i really cant imagine a better solution.

jfrazell
28-02-2007, 18:01
I think it works (within the current framework of the rules) quite nicely. A skimmer is really more akin to an aircraft than a land based tank, and trying to shoot one down should be like trying to pop an aircraft with an anti-tank rifle. Really frikkin hard.

Of course, ideally you would simply give skimmers a -2 'to hit' penalty when they move fast. But modifiers are simply out of the question for the current edition.


No, if it were an aircraft it would go in accord with aircraft rules. They are hovertanks, generally only as fast as a motorcycle in terrain. Thats not terribly fast- you're talking 50-60 miles an hour flat out. In game terms they are only twice as fast as a lumbering tractor (Leman).

Either a negative penatly or reducing glancing only to 'obscured" would be much more appropriate to V4. Inversely pricing reductions for treaded vehicles acorss the board are in order to reflect their relative craptacularness in comparison (akin to the new DA codex).

40kdhs
28-02-2007, 18:03
What would help is:

2: Skimmers *may* be penetrated in close combat.



is this FACT or FICTION.? if there is a FAQ, i would like to know.

i thought you can always glance a skimmer.?

thank you

azimaith
28-02-2007, 18:07
According to the current FAQ, it doesn't matter if its at range or in Close combat.

You only ever score glancing hits, period.

Adept
28-02-2007, 18:48
No, if it were an aircraft it would go in accord with aircraft rules.

Aircraft rules aren't a part of 40K unless you are playing with FW stuff though, are they?

Therefore, a happy medium has been found. No, a skimmer isn't screaming across the battlefield at 2,000 kph. But I don't imagine bursts of 200 to 300 kph, not to mention all sorts of jinking, dodging and vertical movement, to be entirely out of the question.

You have to remember that ranges in 40K are stretchy, rather than absolute. A tank travelling at 12" a turn might be covering two or three hundred yards. A skimmer travelling 24" a turn could be covering a thousand yards or more.

We aren't going to get any kind of fix for skimmers in V4, and in V5 a better alternative would be to make them harder to hit to represent them being, well, harder to hit.

jfrazell
28-02-2007, 19:21
Aircraft rules aren't a part of 40K unless you are playing with FW stuff though, are they?

Therefore, a happy medium has been found. No, a skimmer isn't screaming across the battlefield at 2,000 kph. But I don't imagine bursts of 200 to 300 kph, not to mention all sorts of jinking, dodging and vertical movement, to be entirely out of the question.

You have to remember that ranges in 40K are stretchy, rather than absolute. A tank travelling at 12" a turn might be covering two or three hundred yards. A skimmer travelling 24" a turn could be covering a thousand yards or more.

We aren't going to get any kind of fix for skimmers in V4, and in V5 a better alternative would be to make them harder to hit to represent them being, well, harder to hit.

Respectfully, that’s my point, if it were a flyer it would have flyer rules. You can’t have a 300 kph burst and then stop in the 40K universe. Ranges are stretching but not to each other. A tank going 12 is the same as a hover tank going 12. it’s the same exact field.

But lets take this out of fluff and into game rules where it matters. Tracked vehicles are not substantially cheaper to warrant their use whenever skimmers are available. Look to chimeras vs. Tau transport tanks. Similarly priced, yet the Tau transport has better side armor and all the advantages of a skimmer in hth and shooting.

How much is a fully kitted chimera, a fully kitted Leman?
Compare to a fully kitted wave serpent and falcon. The skimmers are more expensive, but when the skimmer abilities are added in clearly skimmers are the better selections.

I do agree on the last. No mod this edition, with a future edition option of making them harder to hit being a better option. In this edition skimmers could be modified by making tracked vehicles less expensive.

Adept
28-02-2007, 19:32
In this edition skimmers could be modified by making tracked vehicles less expensive.

Which would also serve to reduce their liability to those lucky shots.

jfrazell
28-02-2007, 19:50
yes indeed, they would be priced accoring to their worth in V4.

inane-fedaykin
28-02-2007, 20:00
Most skimmers don't have nearly as many weapons as a regular tank and they usualy don't have armor nearly as high.

jfrazell
28-02-2007, 20:17
Please cite specifics.
Falcon has two weapon systems plus shuricats. Leman has ordnance-shoot it and nothing else shoots. I'll give you that point on an LR/LRC variant, but they are also 250 points without options.

Azuremen
28-02-2007, 22:24
Well, I can give a reason why skimmers would more likely get glanced than a tracked vehicle going the same speed. Its fairly easy to predict were a tracked vehicle will be, as it MUST stay on the ground. A skimmer would be diving and rising, in all likely hood to reduce getting hit. So its much harder to lead a shot on a Falcon than say an Imperial battle tank.

About comparing the Russ to the Falcon. That pie plate does not need to roll to hit using the BS3, and its what, S8 AP3 pie plate? Well, there goes a whole squad of Marines, etc. A Falcon, in top notch AP killing gear, will get 4 AP2 shots, half of which will miss. It also does not have a front armor of 13/14 (can't remember what a russ has)

So yes, the Falcon can shoot more guns, but they aren't in any way the same as an Imperial battle cannon.

Sildani
01-03-2007, 00:37
Russ has 14/13/10? I believe.

Skimmers are just fine. I've never had an opponent complain about mine, and I've also never seen an opponent have any trouble knocking one of my Wave Serpents or Falcons out of the sky when he really wanted to. It required more of his time and firepower, yes. But that's as it should be considering said Falcon's/Serpent's price tag.

Bloodknight
01-03-2007, 00:46
14 12 10.

@ azuremen: that pieplate would actually be better if it had to hit with BS3 as it would have a 50% chance to hit instead of a 33%. Pie plates are also quite useless for AT work, which the Falcon can do very well.

Prince Facestab
01-03-2007, 01:00
It's only a 33% chance of landing exactly where you place it. It will very often still cause damage on a scatter.

I don't know about the falcon being very good at AT work. Maybe against light vehicles, or on side armor, that's certainly not what I use it for. Also, I don't know that pie plates are useless for AT work; they can usually scatter several inches and still land on the vehicle.

Bloodknight
01-03-2007, 01:06
Depends on the vehicle. In this case, yes, the Eldar vehicles as well as Landraiders are big enough. Ork stuff, Marine tanks and IG tanks are too small to be fired at reliably with a battlecannon.
My tanks tend to get shot up from the sides by Falcons and Tau skimmers mostly as IG tanks have small fronts and large sides. It´s quite easy to hit them from the sides if you have a mobile gun.
A falcon with pulse laser and two shuriken cannons makes a great tank hunter.

The Song of Spears
01-03-2007, 16:00
I agree with the sentiment that skimmers are just fine. I have no issues dropping skimmers with orks or space marines(nids have issues though) the only skimmer that gives me hell is the Falcon, and thats not really because its a skimmer is the Holofileds that make it tough and nails. but even then by turn 3 or 4 i usually have all its guns blown off and the eldar player is just running it off to capture a table objective and its not doing anything.

I think regular tanks should be more survivable, but thats not a skimmers fault. :p

I have played as IG using a buddies minis, and i was always very peeved at how easy it was to bring down my chimeras, even the lemun russes didn't last that long. fix tracked vehicles, leave skimmers alone IMO.

EDIT:
Give all tracked tanks the option to buy something like the SM 'venerable' upgrade. That should help i think. Or, even better, give tanks the option to buy a vehicle wargear that on a 4+ or 6+ (not sure whats better) it downgrades a shot to a glancing hit for 'heavy armour deflection"

jfrazell
01-03-2007, 16:06
14 12 10.

@ azuremen: that pieplate would actually be better if it had to hit with BS3 as it would have a 50% chance to hit instead of a 33%. Pie plates are also quite useless for AT work, which the Falcon can do very well.

You beat me to it. Relying on ordnance to take out vehicles is not efficient.



I have played as IG using a buddies minis, and i was always very peeved at how easy it was to bring down my chimeras, even the lemun russes didn't last that long. fix tracked vehicles, leave skimmers alone IMO.


I'd be onside with this as well. This could be done weither with significant price reductions or some other method. In EPIC guard Lemans have "reinforced armor" which allows you to re-roll misses (obviated by certain weapons like meltas). Mayhaps utilization of that via hull points or something. I think strong price reductions in line with the DA codex would be easier however.

Getz
01-03-2007, 16:10
You beat me to it. Relying on ordnance to take out vehicles is not efficient.

You know, I find that so long as you don't try for a tiny target like a Viper or a Buggy, Ordnance will hit most vehicles just fine. I frequently use my Russes for tank busting and they tend to work out just fine.

jfrazell
01-03-2007, 17:06
You know, I find that so long as you don't try for a tiny target like a Viper or a Buggy, Ordnance will hit most vehicles just fine. I frequently use my Russes for tank busting and they tend to work out just fine.


Interesting. I have extreme problems hitting vehicles with Leman ordnance in V4. The centerpoint of the shot rarely stays on the vehicle. Mayhaps you play Tau/Eldar with their larger vehicles or marines with LRs? Mileage varies.

Personally I always thought if ordnance were the issue, making every hit with the exception of the centerpoint as maximum gtlancing would have done the trick.

inane-fedaykin
01-03-2007, 18:19
@jfrazell
Every game I've played against Guard the tanks have always had more shots then my Falcon though I do tend to only stick a starcannon on it and not upgrade the shuricats.

MegaPope
01-03-2007, 18:31
I don't use Ordnance for tank hunting unless desperate (or employing Vanquisher cannons) ever since the centre hole rule was introduced. Lemans kill infantry. It's one of the reasons why variants like the Exterminator are a bit superfluous. The standard LR is more than up to the job.

However, re: skimmers, if anything Ordnance should be MORE effective, not less. After all, the examples of why Skimmers should only ever be glanced have all assumed a firer aiming for a direct hit.

But ordnance works like real world anti-aircraft artillery, which relies on concussion from nearby explosions, rather than direct strikes, to blast flying targets with shockwaves and knock them out of the sky. The detonation of a 6" howitzer shell (battlecannon) in the vicinity of speeding falcon would be sufficient to flip it onto its roof or drive into the ground by concussion alone, armour or no armour.

How this might work in 40K terms, I'm less than sure, but always allowing Ordnance/Large Blast weaponry its full strength against skimmer targets would likely be the most accurate representation. As a general rule of thumb, though, I'm still in favour of the Obscured solution. After all, skimmers are not actual aircraft, and there's still a 50% chance that any given hit will only be a glance. How lucky are you feeling?

As an additional point, I think the problem some people percieve with Eldar skimmers if likely exacerbated by the Lance rule, meaning that not only is said Falcon difficult to destroy, it will also pop your tanks/other vehicles with impunity a lot of the time. I'm not saying aye or nay here myself, just suggesting a point.

jfrazell
01-03-2007, 18:52
@jfrazell
Every game I've played against Guard the tanks have always had more shots then my Falcon though I do tend to only stick a starcannon on it and not upgrade the shuricats.


Point of clarification. Am I incorrect in that naked (ie without upgrades) the Leman has two weapons (ordnance and lascannon) while the Falcon has the Pulse cannon, a second weapon and the shuricats? Am I messing that up?

If the Leman fires its ordnance it can fire nothing else. I'm not certain how they are managing to shoot more than you.

The Song of Spears
01-03-2007, 18:55
It sounds to me like everyone is saying the same thing:

The vehicle rules are overly oversimplified, and what works for skimmers may not work for tracked tanks.

GW need to get over it's fear of 'game mechanic complexity' and make us some more dynamic vehicle rules in 5th ed.

jfrazell
01-03-2007, 19:49
Word on that.

Midknightwraith
01-03-2007, 19:59
As an additional point, I think the problem some people percieve with Eldar skimmers if likely exacerbated by the Lance rule, meaning that not only is said Falcon difficult to destroy, it will also pop your tanks/other vehicles with impunity a lot of the time. I'm not saying aye or nay here myself, just suggesting a point.

Except that Falcons are never armed with a lance weapon. The Pulse Laser doesn't have this rule, and putting a BrightLance on it makes it way expensive and either less efficient, or more vulnerable. So the "popping with impunity" comment is more than a little unfounded.

There are two armies that have issues dealing with armor, orcs and Daemon Hunters. And Daemon hunters can take Imperial allies, and are not really meant to be played as a stand alone force (complain all you want they aren't, just deal with it), so they do not factor into this discussion. The orcs have a legitimate gripe. Honestly, Eldar had this same problem with several of their units pre 4th Ed Codex (Rapid Fire DeathSpinners anyone?!?). The major problem with orcs is the cost is just a little more than it should be.

Compare an Eldar Guardian(Notorious for being refered to as inefficient and over costed, but a unit I like to use regularly) to an Orc SluggaBoy. -1BS, +1WS,+1T, +1A, -2I, -1Sv, and comperable weapons. IIRC they both cost 8 points (don't have C:Orcs handy to check). Given the focus on assault of 3rd Ed. the points made sense. In the shooty world of 4th Ed. the value of assault is signifigantly less. Mainly, because it takes a lot more finess and prowess to get there now than it did in 3rd, especially with orcs who lack DeepStrike ability. If anything the problem is with the orcs not with skimmers.

Though I do agree that To Hit modifiers would make a great deal more sense when dealing with skimmers, it is an unfortunate fact that that ship has sailed. Given what we have to work with in the current system, I think we have about the best solution possible, without reintroducing modifiers, or something equally cumbersome.

For everyone else who complains about skimmers, You wouldn't want them to cost more, have less armor, on average fewer weapons, no Ordinance, AND be easier to kill!?. :eyebrows: :wtf:

Orcs have somewhat of a legitimate gripe because they have to tailor their list to have a chance, not that the orc rockit assault army of doom is a bad army against anyone. Just from a desire for variety I understand and empathise with their troubles (as they are mine own also). The rest of you have plenty of options. If you choose to play an army that is particularly bad against skimmers is that the skimmers fault or yours? I know my own skimmers rarely make it all game. Of the three bigger ones I usually play generally only the Falcon survives and usually it has lost it's pulse laser if not more.

Bloodknight
01-03-2007, 20:12
Slugga Boyz cost 9 points. I feel that Orks in general are overpriced a bit.

Voodoo Boyz
01-03-2007, 20:21
Fixing the skimmers is really a moot question since we have no say on it.

If I had my way skimmers would drop in price and the Skimmers Moving Fast Rule would be reduced to giving a glancing hit on a 4+.

That or all tanks would move towards a Toughness and Wounds systems with saves like the rest of the units in the game. Skimmers would then get invulnerable saves instead of Armor saves.

Bloodknight
01-03-2007, 20:25
Nay; normal tanks would never get a save if it weren´t invulnerable, as most AT guns are either AP2 or AP3 at worst.

Midknightwraith
01-03-2007, 20:29
Not to mention there would need to be an exclusion for things like Psy-Cannons. Nope Toughness/Armor saves for vehicles just isn't going to work unless AP system is thrown out the window for them. So much for simplifying the rules. :p

inane-fedaykin
01-03-2007, 20:32
Fixing the skimmers is really a moot question since we have no say on it.
Of course you do, no one said you couldn't house rule it. I don't think GW employees are going to come over to your table and rough you up because you changed something.

That or all tanks would move towards a Toughness and Wounds systems with saves like the rest of the units in the game. Skimmers would then get invulnerable saves instead of Armor saves.[/QUOTE]

This would make high toughness models useless. I'd rather see something along the lines of hull points.

Midknightwraith
01-03-2007, 20:34
Here is a crazy idea! Why not revamp the AP system like this.

Roll to hit normal. Change the roll to would so that a targets T is reduced by what ever the AP value is (obviously AP values would need to be changed a bit). Then roll armor like normal. Then Tanks could be integrated into the same mechanic, but obviously with signifigantly higher toughness than most troops.

Oh wait I forgot, we aren't allowed to add or subtract. :eyebrows:
Nevermind, move along.... nothing to see here.:angel:

inane-fedaykin
01-03-2007, 20:37
Yeah, GW needs to stop assuming the people playing the games are complete idiots.

Midknightwraith
01-03-2007, 20:38
This would make high toughness models useless. I'd rather see something along the lines of hull points.

Not necessarily. Provided a unit classed as a vehicle that takes a wound also still has to worry about Imobilization / Weapon Destroyed / Shaken / Stunned. Where as High toughness creatures would not suffer those same results.

Midknightwraith
01-03-2007, 20:45
Of course, the obvious problem with this is that using equivalent toughness means they become vulnerable to lower strength weapons (given the current To Wound chart), offset somewhat by being able to take mulitple hits. And this is isn't that much different from the system in place now. The primary thing being more survivable, but not as effective as a MC.