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The_Hrud
14-02-2007, 19:00
hey, thinking about the 40k background in general, ive discovered a few loopholes, such as:
if space marines live for hundreds of years, couldn't a few dedicate their lives to a purpose other than war? for example, if one had been training as a politician for 300 years, wouldn't he make an awsome planetary govenor?

anyone found any others?

==Me==
14-02-2007, 19:26
Marines were made for war. Their implants are designed to make them killing machines and their training/indoctrination makes them fearless and remorseless killers.

Old Marines, however, can be retired from active duty to train the new recruits or perform administrative tasks within the chapter (logistics, fleet command, etc).

When I think of marines running planets, I can only imagine ==My== beloved(?) Governator, Arnie.

As for loopholes, 40k background is full of them, it makes interpretation all the easier and varied. The depth is in the mystery.

One of ==My== personal favorite ambiguities: The Tau. They are idealistic and efficient, but they are far from angels of happy sunshine. People have their own interpretations, which makes it all the more interesting.

The_Hrud
14-02-2007, 19:44
just cause they're good at war, doesn't mean they have to do it.

Strangelove
14-02-2007, 19:48
They're not just "good at war", they're built for war.

You don't make a marine Governor for the same reason you don't drive a tank to do your groceries.

Phox
14-02-2007, 20:07
You don't make a marine Governor for the same reason you don't drive a tank to do your groceries.

That is getting sigged!

CelestialDragonKing
14-02-2007, 21:10
A few loopholes? 40k is like swiss cheese man.

BTW the Ultramarines control a number of worlds in the Ultramar system.

Norminator
14-02-2007, 21:36
I was under the impression that Ultramar is governed in the name of the Ultramarines (who are directly responsible for it) but most of the administration is done by chapter serfs and servants.

NashTrickster
14-02-2007, 22:06
Actually, your so-called "loophole" doesn't exist...

The higher classes of the Imperium (i.e. all those who may become planetary governor one day) have access to rejuvenat treatments which allows them to live for hundreds of years too... Moreover, anyone who has a chance to become Governor is trained from the tenderest age to become a politician and that training lasts for decades (more than a century for most of them probably), and yet that doesn't make any of them better at politics in the end...

And as far as "just cause they're good at war, doesn't mean they have to do it" is concerned: if Marines weren't psycho-indoctrinated from the very beginning, then you might have a point... But Marines are not only genetically turned into killing machines, they are also conditionned into it... They are made and brainwashed into being humanity's best warriors, and nothing else...

MrBigMr
14-02-2007, 22:36
What I understand, Salamanders have strong ties to their people back on Vulca. I remember them working as leaders and such. They leave their office when they are needed needed in battle.

NashTrickster
14-02-2007, 22:39
Well, but IIRC Salamanders don't use the same psycho-indoctrination techniques as the other chapters either...

Gondorian
14-02-2007, 23:11
But also remember that marines are warriors first before all other duties. Every marine accepts that he will die in battle for the emperor, it is not if, it is when. True, some of the old boys become more caretakers of the chapter than warriors, but they are still serving as warriors in the sense that they help the chapter function.

Farseer Silvanus
15-02-2007, 07:06
They're not just "good at war", they're built for war.

You don't make a marine Governor for the same reason you don't drive a tank to do your groceries.

LOL I like that comparsions. It does describe how it would be if a retired marine commander ran a planet.lol

Mother_Mercy
15-02-2007, 08:48
Marines might very well be involved in politics, although war is their first and highest calling. It would of course depend on which chapter they come from. High-ranking Ultramarines might, much like samurais and knights, be both politicians and warriors. Flesh Tearers...perhaps not.

It is also a matter of what role the Chapter plays on its homeworld. Is it merely a military force which happens to be stationed there, or is it an active part of society?

Also, most Chapter homeworlds aren't run by planetary governors at all, but by the Chapter Master. Therefore, even the most self-centered Chapter needs a minimum of political prowess, in order to function within the Imperium.

precinctomega
15-02-2007, 10:13
Yes, there are, indeed, many "holes" but that isn't one of them.

R.

Iracundus
15-02-2007, 11:50
The training of Marines focuses on war, not politics, administration, economics etc. Their mindset and indoctrination and total focusing on war also means their priorities are different from a civilian ruler, almost certainly emphasizing preparing for war over all other civilian necessities. While the Imperium in atmosphere is styled as a brutal oppresive place, civilian rulers have to make at least some minimal concession to civilian needs and luxury goods among the nobility (or whatever equivalent on the world) and the general populace in order to prevent widespread revolt.

The worlds that are "ruled" by Marines even Ultramar have the Marines as a sort of nebulous warrior class above the general day to day administrative tasks which are presumably carried out by their servants and serfs, only descending to take on new recruits before retreating back to their fortresses/monasteries/stations. Any governmental policy dictated by the Marines is probably dictated only in the loosest terms, and left for their subordinate servants to tend to the details of how to accomplish the objectives.

Angelwing
15-02-2007, 15:06
doesnt marneus calgar and the captain of the first company act as administrators of ultramar? hence they would have politics and diplomacy as skills. (by the authority of the emperor, you will pay your tithes.. (waves boltgun.))

Feor
15-02-2007, 15:50
More likely, as Iracundus suggests, Calgar and friends say "By authority of the Emperor, everyone will pay {x} tithes!" and an appointed govenor then goes out and makes it happen.

Strangelove
16-02-2007, 00:00
The Ultramar system has a tithe grade of "Adeptus Non", so it's a moot point. ;)

505
16-02-2007, 03:45
loophole

the imperial guard always NEEDS the space marines to save them :D

(Just once I want a Guard battalion to save a spacemarine company)

Leftenant Gashrog
16-02-2007, 06:20
Therefore, even the most self-centered Chapter needs a minimum of political prowess, in order to function within the Imperium.

i agree with that sentiment, for starters they need to be able to negotiate with the Navis Nobilitae in order to get Navigators otherwise they are pretty screwed (Navigator houses rise and fall ~ even if a chapter has a permenant contract ala the Space Wolves and House Belisarius theres always the possibility of the house dying out due to mutation or disease or somesuch not to mention Inquisitorial purges, thereby forcing the chapter to negotiate a new one)

(totally off topic.. its just hit me how the Celestial Lions mission to Terra could have gotten lost: Navigator suborned by the Inquisition)

not to mention procurement: every chapter is going to need doohickies and McGuffins every now and then that they cant manufacture on their own ~ depending on the chapter it could be anything from a neural interface for a suit of power armour all the way up to a replacement battlebarge, when that happens they will probably have to negotiate for it ~ sure they almost certainly have treaties with the AdMech dating from their founding (unless a particularly non-politically savvy chapter master has managed to **** the AdMech off), but so does every other chapter out there ~ not to mention the the Departmento Munitorum and countless Imperial worlds aswell: unless the chapter knows how to grease the wheels its likely to find itself waaay down the bottom of the waiting list for the things it needs right now

chromedog
16-02-2007, 07:11
The procurement issue I believe would be handled by the senior techmarine "Master of the Forge". It is his duty to maintain the chapter's hardware in a state of readiness. As they are given additional training by the admech, they are in the unique position for 'negotiation'. And it's more than likely more in line with the Forge Master requisitioning from the Quartermaster General.

DvlDog
16-02-2007, 09:03
I just can't see SM in some occuppation that is not militaristic. If not fighting then supporting. Even if the Salies are smiths they are undoubtedly making a large amount of weapons with the other goods they do. Although they may help out a world they are in in some non-violent way (much to their dismay). All in all however...
BORN TO FIGHT TRAINED TO KILL, READY TO DIE BUT NEVER WILL!

WLBjork
16-02-2007, 11:03
All Space Marine Chaptermasters are also the governors of their homeworlds.

In addition, there are recorded incidents of Space Marines "retiring" (Deathwing [short story], the Fallen [not all are Chaos Marines, some are now regular Imperial Citizens]).

Training may put the emphasis on combat, but Diplomacy and Leadership are also key skills and Space Marines are unlikely to be promoted without some abilities in these areas.

ArtificerArmour
16-02-2007, 17:10
All Space Marine Chaptermasters are also the governors of their homeworlds.

In addition, there are recorded incidents of Space Marines "retiring" (Deathwing [short story], the Fallen [not all are Chaos Marines, some are now regular Imperial Citizens]).



I dislike that piece of fluff. How does an 8 foot tall adonis pretend to be a regular citizen?

Drak Bloodhelm
16-02-2007, 17:23
I dislike that piece of fluff. How does an 8 foot tall adonis pretend to be a regular citizen?

Aren't they only 7 feet? You'd be surprised at the things people will ignore as "everyday" and mundane. Without his armor, and if his implants and connecting ports are all covered up... a marine could well pass (without too close an inspection) for just a big guy... and in a universe of untold billions of humans, part-man part machine tech priests, an immortal emperor on a diet of psykers, alien monstrosities, acient horrors, and thirsting gods... what's so odd about a tall guy?

And I doubt they'd ever go for very public jobs... something quiet perhaps, I'd imagine with his strength and endurance a marine could make a good construction worker or such... and who knows what sort of augmentations that job involves? His ports could seem just as normal as the guy with a band saw for an arm...

MrBigMr
16-02-2007, 18:05
I dislike that piece of fluff. How does an 8 foot tall adonis pretend to be a regular citizen?
Like so:
http://kotisivu.dnainternet.net/juuso007/Pics/mcbain_nerd.jpg

Leftenant Gashrog
16-02-2007, 18:11
I dislike that piece of fluff. How does an 8 foot tall adonis pretend to be a regular citizen?

"my grandmother was an Ogryn"