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The SkaerKrow
15-02-2007, 07:09
This Sunday I'm going to be running an event for my local game club. I've got the rules pretty much ironed out, except for how I want to handle the Magic Phase. Each side will be made up of teams of four-to-six players running 500 point armies. Up to this point I've had several ideas of how I want to deal with the Magic Phase, but I was wondering if anyone had information about/links to a more official or battle tested ruleset than my own home-brew solution.

Any suggestions on the matter are greatly appreciated.

T10
15-02-2007, 07:30
Use shared magic pools for each side.


Power Dice: 1 base plus 1 per army. Dwarf armies add none.
Dispel Dice: 1 base, plus 1 per army. Dwarf armies add 2 instead of 1.


It is assumed that each side has the same number of armies. If not, the side with the fewest armies should take additional magic dice to make up for the difference.

E.g. one Dwarf army facing three other armies should take 3 power dice (1 base, 0 for his own army, 2 to make up the difference) and 5 dispel dice (1 base, 2 for his own army, 2 to make up the difference).

-T10

Milgram
15-02-2007, 07:37
in larger battles with equal teams (2v2, 3v3 on 4-6k) we tend to play with 'normal' magic - i.e. everyone gets 2 dices in the pool.

if you have more armies on one side but on an equal point limitation, i would go for a balance in power and dispel dices. (2x 3000 vs 3x 2000 means 4 or 6 pool dices for each side).

the dices are bound to each player as normal.

but as you go for 2000-3000 points with 4-6 players per side, I would either give everyone one power&dispel dice or a pool for the whole side with 2-3 dices.

Avian
15-02-2007, 08:33
Our method of doing Multiplayer Battles (http://folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/rules/multiplayer.php).

It works very well and is hard to abuse.

The SkaerKrow
15-02-2007, 08:39
Interesting. I was thinking of handling each army's magic separately, and resolving each army's Magic Phase as a "Challenge" of sorts.

For example, Dark Elf Bob has one Level Two Sorceress, which gives him 4 Power Dice. The other team chooses one of their armies to participate in the Magic Phase against Dark Elf Bob. The player chosen happens to be Empire Joe, who has a Level Two Wizard and therefore has 3 Dispel Dice at his disposal. Dark Elf Bob casts spells using only the pool generated by his army, and Empire Joe is the only one that can dispel them, using his own pool. After Dark Elf Bob finishes casting his spells then the next army on his team gets to resolve their Magic Phase, and the other team must choose another player from their side (other than Empire Joe) to participate in the Magic Phase. This goes on until all armies in the active team have had a chance to cast.

The only problem with this system would be that it would take longer, but at 500 points I don't expect every single army to bring a caster to the table. If they do then I could just resolve each Magic Phase four players at a time, using the kinds of systems that have been suggested here. Thoughts?

DeathlessDraich
15-02-2007, 08:50
Interesting systems. Mine is simpler.

1) All 'pool' dice are counted per side i.e. 2 power dice and 2 dispel dice. Dwarves extra 2 is exclusive for Dwarven use only.

Dispel Dice:
All the armies are regarded as one conglomerate army for the purposes of dispelling i.e. pool dice, dice generated by individual wizards etc are collected together. Similarly Dispel Scrolls can be used for an ally. This ensures that a single army is not specially targeted by magic

Power Dice:
Each wizard uses his own generated dice while any wizard can use the 'pool dice'.

Avian
15-02-2007, 08:53
Thoughts?
Sounds needlessly complicated and different just to be different. And it doesn't scale with a different number of players on each side.




Power Dice:
Each wizard uses his own generated dice while any wizard can use the 'pool dice'.
Potentially unbalancing as you can combine effects much more than normal, for example an army that generates a lot of power dice combined with an army with a bonus to cast spells.

DeathlessDraich
15-02-2007, 09:11
Potentially unbalancing as you can combine effects much more than normal, for example an army that generates a lot of power dice combined with an army with a bonus to cast spells.

Not really. Armies don't generate power dice, they generate pool dice. (maybe you've misinterpreted my post). Individual wizards generate individual power dice.
If a wizard generates many dice, then it has the right to all of them.

The SkaerKrow
15-02-2007, 09:15
Sounds needlessly complicated and different just to be different. And it doesn't scale with a different number of players on each side.
I'm not sure how it's needlessly complicated, since all I'm basically doing is using the normal Warhammer Magic system. The scaling isn't a big concern of mine, since the number of players on both teams will end up fluctuating during this event. I will put a checkmark in the "No" column for this system, though.

Avian
15-02-2007, 09:29
If a wizard generates many dice, then it has the right to all of them.
The specific example is Tzeentch (who gets loads of power dice but a not too impressive lore) combined with Dark Elves* (who get a bonus to their casting roll and access to better lores).

On the flip side you get Dwarfs handing their extra dispel dice to the High Elves, who get a bonus to dispel. This came up during one team battle and the decision not to allow sharing was made because of this.



* or anyone else with with the appropriate magic item

DeathlessDraich
15-02-2007, 09:40
The specific example is Tzeentch (who gets loads of power dice but a not too impressive lore) combined with Dark Elves* (who get a bonus to their casting roll and access to better lores).

On the flip side you get Dwarfs handing their extra dispel dice to the High Elves, who get a bonus to dispel. This came up during one team battle and the decision not to allow sharing was made because of this.
* or anyone else with with the appropriate magic item


This is slightly different and has an easy solution:

1)Army specific rules for magic should only affect that army.
e.g. HE +1 to dispel should only work when magic is cast on a HE unit.
Warpstone tokens can only be used by Skaven.
Dwarves extra 2 dice, as I mentioned above, can only be used by Dwarves i.e. when magic is cast on a Dwarf unit.

2) Magic cast on a 'friendly' unit can only affect a army type which is identical
to the caster i.e. TrollGuts can only be cast by a Butcher on Ogres.

The main difficulty with magic is Tomb Kings and in particular the Casket. Simply avoid using them!:p

DarthBinky
15-02-2007, 16:34
1)Army specific rules for magic should only affect that army.
e.g. HE +1 to dispel should only work when magic is cast on a HE unit.
Warpstone tokens can only be used by Skaven.
Dwarves extra 2 dice, as I mentioned above, can only be used by Dwarves i.e. when magic is cast on a Dwarf unit.
Just to play some devil's advocate, what about spells that don't actively target an enemy unit, such as Comet of Casandora, Drain Life or buffs like Flaming Sword of Rhuin? How do you decide who gets what in those cases?

Also, the Gut Magic example is not a good one, because Gut Magic's rules actually state that only units that are listed as Ogres (ie not gnoblars, sabretusks or giants) may be affected.

Krankenstein
15-02-2007, 17:21
The specific example is Tzeentch (who gets loads of power dice but a not too impressive lore) combined with Dark Elves* (who get a bonus to their casting roll and access to better lores).


Is this significantly different from any other nasty combinations two armies might create?

That chaos player and that dark elves player could have made a wicket refused flank with a dark elves gunline and a fast Khorne army instead.

DeathlessDraich
15-02-2007, 18:48
Just to play some devil's advocate, what about spells that don't actively target an enemy unit, such as Comet of Casandora, Drain Life or buffs like Flaming Sword of Rhuin? How do you decide who gets what in those cases?


Dispel dice is used by the side as a whole and not specific armies so there will be no problems with the dice used to dispel Comet or Drain life.

Flaming Sword is cast on the Wizard itself.

However Steed of shadows will have to be cast on a charcater of the same army type as the caster.

jullevi
15-02-2007, 21:01
In our multiplayer games each army generates its dice as normal. Casting is done one army at time, but any opposing player may use his dice or scrolls to dispel. However, the opposing players may not combine their dispel dice. In addition, miscast result 8-9 only ends the current caster's magic phase and all spells with unlimited range are limited to 36".

DarthBinky
16-02-2007, 05:57
Dispel dice is used by the side as a whole and not specific armies so there will be no problems with the dice used to dispel Comet or Drain life.

Flaming Sword is cast on the Wizard itself.

However Steed of shadows will have to be cast on a charcater of the same army type as the caster.
You misunderstand me (or perhaps I misunderstand you).

You said that in your method, special bonuses used for dispelling only take effect when that army is being targetted- you gave the examples of a High Elf using his +1 to dispel only on spells that are cast on his army and the same for the +2 dispel dice to the pool for Dwarf armies.

So you get this situation- Dwarfs and HElves are allied. Enemy casts Comet of Casandora (or one of the other spells that doesn't actually target an enemy, such as Drain Life, Flaming Sword, etc). Under your method, they suddenly lose their special dispel abilities due to the quirk that the spell isn't actually cast on the Elves or the Dwarfs themselves. Which doesn't really make sense- why would they have a harder time dispelling magic just because they have some friends helping them? Seems to me that if anything, they should have an easier time with it...

DeathlessDraich
16-02-2007, 09:09
Yes, I understand your point. Apologies for the misinterpretation.
To rephrase:
What happens when a spell is cast on multiple units (or possibly affecting multiple units) of different armies with different dispelling bonuses or penalties?

No easy solution here but the same principle of Magic Resistance should be used:

In a normal game (of 2 armies only) if a spell is cast which affects 2 units, one with Magic Resistance and the other without, then the Magic Resistance can be used to dispel it.*

Therefore if Cleansing Flare or Drain Life is cast and one of the affected units is Dwarf and another HE, then the extra 2 dice and the +1 to dispel may both be applied.

The Comet - I can't offer a good solution since the comet might not impact immediately but in future rounds. A mutual agreement is needed.

*This principle is taken from Chronicles 2004 for the 6th Ed and strictly speaking does not apply to the 7th but I doubt whether this will change when an FAQ about it eventually appears.
I'm starting a new thread to see how players here feel about it.

Nkari
16-02-2007, 09:44
We do it very simple, Everyone generates their own dice as normal per wizard, then each side has 2 extra dice to share amongst themselfs, dwarfs get 2 "own" dispell dice, and none in their magic phase, allso helps to tone down magic a bit, since when you get to 3*3000 pts armies at each side, magic can get out of hand..

DarthBinky
16-02-2007, 14:44
Yes, I understand your point. Apologies for the misinterpretation.
To rephrase: trimmed to save space
That mostly seems reasonable, but you still seem to be missing my main point. What about with buffs and other spells?

Let's say that same Dwarf-Elf alliance is fighting against a nasty Necrarch and his army of skarytons. The Necrarch casts Invocation of Nehek, Danse Macabre or Hellish Vigour, which are all generally good candidates for dispel dice, but don't target enemies at all.

How do you decide who gets to use their dispel bonuses against those spells? Normally an Elf would get his +1 to dispel (even if his own units aren't the target), or the dwarf could use his extra dice (ditto). But under your method, neither could because they aren't targetted, or even directly affected (as in the Drain Life example).

Do you see what I'm getting at?

DeathlessDraich
16-02-2007, 15:01
Invocation of Nehek, Djedra Summoning.
Again difficult to decide. The same as the Comet, I suppose.

That's one reason why I suggested not including TK in combined armies. VC tend to be slightly less magic dependent (except Necrarch!) so it is possible to get away with using them.

Count de Monet
16-02-2007, 16:35
Assuming equal sides (# of armies/side, # of pts/army), I don't see any significant need to make any seperate system for it. Just have each army generate its own power and dispel dice as normal. Anyone can try to dispel anything.

The SkaerKrow
16-02-2007, 19:57
In our multiplayer games each army generates its dice as normal. Casting is done one army at time, but any opposing player may use his dice or scrolls to dispel. However, the opposing players may not combine their dispel dice. In addition, miscast result 8-9 only ends the current caster's magic phase and all spells with unlimited range are limited to 36".
This is basically what I'm doing, I've just codified it differently. Glad to see that I'm not the only one that thought of it.

TheWarSmith
16-02-2007, 20:00
You end up with some vicious combinations that way though, because tzeentch armies could use their staff of change to dispel things not targeted at them, but perhaps that's ok. Or you could say that the staff dispell reroll only applies to magic targetted at tzeentch units.