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Lord_Sanguinius
20-07-2005, 16:46
Ok i searched about 3 pages and could'nt find a high elf tactica thread, or one being revived. Well they're one of the 2 alternate armies i've decided to play next to my chaos so i have no idea how they're suppose to work. From what i hear they can be a swift assaulting force or a defensive force. I was thinking of building an army in between.

post away, i'm not very good at finding a topic to discuss first.

NarCiS
20-07-2005, 17:40
Topic 1 : Lord at 2000 points : Archmage/Prince/no lord
-explain which and why :D

I use an archmage for magic defense and some offense, also teamed with commanders i will always have a Ld9 general

Exavier
20-07-2005, 17:50
I use a lord, because a combat punch is always appreciated. If we're playing Archaon or something that lets me use enough points for two lord choices, then I use an Archmage as well. However, depends on the army faced for me, i.e. chaos you want more fire support. Definitely.

Lord Anathir
20-07-2005, 17:57
I am currently writing a high elven tactica....Its a MASSIVE undertaking.....its almost done......Its quite long. I dont even know how to post it.....
It should be done in about a week.

g0ddy
20-07-2005, 18:08
Highelves Control the magic phase, and you dont need a lot of mages to do it. They can HIGHLY defensive or offensive (or both) in the magic phase w/ minimal points/character slots used.

They make the widest use of magic items of any army in WHFB. They typically receive a 20% discount on the cost of their magic items (and have lots of them) - in some cases more (something that would cost another army 50 pts is now 40 pts and 15 would be 10 pts). Additionally the unit champions of most of their specialized units can take 25 pts of magic items - which comes in handy below.

A few examples :

a (talisman or enchanted item - its been a while) that gives a 2+ ward save versus magic to the bearer and his entire unit. (<50 pts)
a enchanted item that subtracts 3 from the casting roll (suddenly your opponents 7+ spell becomes a 10+ to cast) of any spell cast towards it
another enchanted item that gives magic Resistance 1? and immunity to fire

These last two are cheap enough to be given to said unit champions (VERY useful)

They have a (60?) point magic banner that makes the entire unit joined by it IMMUNE to all forms of magic..

Even their fighting characters can be lvl 1 mages - by use of the "loremaster" honour or a magic item.

They have a pair of utter fantastic bound spell items, 30/35 points.

one of which casts Vauls Unmaking (the last spell in the high magic lore - it destroys enemy magic items :o)
the other casts Fury of Khaine (the high magic lore 2d6 s4 magic missile)

and their last line of defense comes two fold - every high elf mage (providing hes using high magic) knows in addition to his other spells "Drain Magic" (easy to cast spell, 3 ranks of casting - EFFECTIVELY limits or completely shuts down an enemy mage for a turn depending on which level you cast it at). Secondally every high elf mage, opposite to the dark elves - gains +1 to all dispell attempts.

The list goes on :)

Shooting however, unlike the dark elves is a bit of a weak point for the High Elves - They have RTB's in the same availability as the Dark elves - however they have a lot more competition for rare slots and their archers unlike their dark elf counterparts are somewhat lackluster in comparison.

Overall both mage heavy and fighting character heavy armies are effective and additionally Cavalry and Infantry heavy armies or any combination are totally viable options aswell.

I suggest you pick up the army book in advance as we cant divulge too much info on the boards, but hope this helps :)

- g0ddy

(did i mention - you probably alreayd know, swordmasters use their great weapons at initiative? swordmaster honour can also be given to characters which also gives them killing blow in addition to having a i6 or 7 great weapon o_O)

Lord_Sanguinius
21-07-2005, 05:30
ok i appreciate the advice. i'll be buying the army book soon. i'll also be posting an army list sooner or later. i was thinking of making a balanced list. even amount of shooting and assault then what leftover points goes to characters and i am planning on having an archmage and giving him the seer that lets him pick his spells :p .

And i dont think i'll ever go to battle without a unit of swordmasters, you cant beat weapon skill 6 and not having to strike last with Great Weapons. as for rare i wanted to take 2 bolthrowers and fill up rest with eagles to harrass warmachine crew and enemy casters. but i dont want to get too much into detail which is why i'm posting an army list.

Czys
21-07-2005, 06:38
But unfortunetly swordmasters aren't wery tough and have saveing throw on 5+. So u have to give them banner of ellyrion :D and go throught the woods without penalties. :D

NarCiS
21-07-2005, 09:29
Seer isn't so good on the archmage because he gets 4/6 spells already. You can give him the cheap 10 point item for 5/6 spells. wasting 30 points on seer is stupid because you will probably get the spells you want anyway.

Zeb
21-07-2005, 10:11
But it's hell when you don't get that nice spell... Unseen Lurker as an example. ;)

But 4 spells, with certany that you'll get what you want for 30pts vs. 5/6 spells and not knowing for 10pts.
I would go for the Seer anyway.

And it's devestating when you have seer on two Mages in the same army...:evilgrin:

NarCiS
21-07-2005, 10:42
Go Away Dark Elf boy :D
I still prefer 5/6 spells

Zeb
21-07-2005, 10:57
I actually have a small High Elf force as well...:evilgrin: Not much, maybe 1000 pts. But I have played both with HE and, of course, against them in lager battles.

The funny thing IMHO with Archmages and mages in a HE army is the use of seer, the seers seem to have studdies the Lore of Life esentially. And more or less only that lore.

I have encountered two players that have thought outside the box, the cav army with two level 2's and a guy on a Dragon, a Seer with Lore of Light was present. I tought it was just to let the RBT to rip the Dragon appart. Boom! and suddenly the Dragon was healed again...
Getting lower WS hurts as well. Buit I guess you know about that because of Word of Pain... ;)

And another Cav force with Archmage with Lore of Shadows, imaging a unit with 18 inch charge, add 8 inch to that and your in trouble... :angel:

But in these cases you build your army around these things and you can't really afford to miss it in a game, hence the use of Seer. It works on any mage... :eek:

NarCiS
21-07-2005, 11:41
Thats true Zeb, but in my opinion, any army that is built around something as fragile as an elf mage isn't a great army :P You do have some good points though, I might try the Lore of Light sometime. These days I only use High and Heaven

Zeb
21-07-2005, 12:02
It's a point that the army is fragile due to a T3 5+AS Mage. But the magic isn't as fragile...

enyoss
21-07-2005, 12:25
in 2000pts i always go for a prince over an archmage. i'm a bit of a fan of a prince on foot at the moment if only for the reason that to get any use out of the high elf magic weapons Armour of the Gods is a must. auto wounds just doesn't sound threatening with an AS modifier of -1 really.

wanderingblade
21-07-2005, 16:09
I never really developed any strong preferences on Lord choices or lack thereof, I think every option's got its advantages.

I'd say that in an Infantry or Combined Arms Force, the Archmage would probably be my decision. There's quite a few tricks that can be used to boost you leadership, so missing the Prince isn't too much of a problem. But fragile elven bodies need magic support, to make certain march blockers don't exist, flank charges go off and missile fire doesn't too do much damage. Since High Elves rely on precision, I prefer using Seer most of the time but on an Archmage it isn't so essential - I'd normally use him as a magic battery, relying on him getting a few good spells to scare the enemy so a Mage with Seer could give off the more important spells.

I'm more likely to use a Prince in a mounted force, where he can be used to help increase the combat resolution and there's not too many places for a Mage to hide. However, I did even find myself using just heroes, High Elf lords are very expensive and frequently their hero equivelants can do the job.

Lord Anathir
21-07-2005, 18:03
Light is devastating against armies that rely on high WS and BS...like elves.

In mycurrent army ive got 2 level 2s +dragon, one with seer, and i take death lore for doom and darkness to maximize the terror of the dragon. When i take an all cav list (without dragon), lore of beasts is the way to go.

Lord_Sanguinius
21-07-2005, 20:59
i wont get into alot of details but i wanted to know if these units i've chosen(not purchased yet thank God) would work as a good army. i'm not discussing items just units. i'll do the details in the army list forums.

I wanted to use an archmage, 2 mages, 1 commander with a reaver bow, 2 units of 16 archers, 1 unit of 16 spear elves, unit of 8 silver helms, 1 unit of 16 swordmasters, 2 bolt throwers, and 1 great eagle.

anyone see any falters with units?

Zeb
21-07-2005, 21:03
The archers arn't that good. But The rest seem to be OK. Maybe a bit heavy on the magic...

Lord_Sanguinius
21-07-2005, 21:07
The archers arn't that good. But The rest seem to be OK. Maybe a bit heavy on the magic...

how else am i suppose to soften up the enemy without archers? :wtf: they'll rip me to shreds and brake my units if i dont kill them from afar. with bad armour and weak leadership they could easily be broken or killed if i dont soften up the advancing units.

Harky
21-07-2005, 21:18
Well you could use a repeater bolt thrower. It packs more punch than 10 archers and is 20pts cheaper.

My question is how many characters do you use in a 2000pt game? I want to use an archmage (lvl4 if possible) and what else?
Also which unit do you like best, the Swordmasters or the White Lions. I like the Lions for the fluff, but am worried they would die fast because of the GW...

Lord_Sanguinius
21-07-2005, 21:32
Well you could use a repeater bolt thrower. It packs more punch than 10 archers and is 20pts cheaper.

My question is how many characters do you use in a 2000pt game? I want to use an archmage (lvl4 if possible) and what else?
Also which unit do you like best, the Swordmasters or the White Lions. I like the Lions for the fluff, but am worried they would die fast because of the GW...

I listed what i was going to use in a post above. i have 2 repeater bolthrowers. i really like the swordmasters with weapon skill 6 and ignoring striking last with a great weapon. I was thinking of keeping one unit of archers then using some of the open points from the unit i could get rid of to use for shadow warriors.

Eldanar
21-07-2005, 21:45
Magic is the key to the High Elf army.

I tend to go with an Archmage, unless I'm playing high enough points to have multiple lord choices.

I also almost always use Seer with every mage.

Some people have suggested and given some good examples of how to use mages combined with a specific lore to augment your playing style. Seer allows you to accomplish this because you MUST be able to draw the 1-2 spells which are necessary in whatever given lore.

I like High, Light, Beasts, Fire and Life.

And there are so many different potentialities within these specific choices for different types of armies.

Also, I almost always field the 2 bound items, simply because they are an extremely easy way to add 2 spells with which to draw out dispel scrolls and dispel dice.

Lord_Sanguinius
21-07-2005, 21:48
Ok, well like alot of people said the Archmage is bound to get a spell he wants or needs and seer should be used on the little'uns cause they have less chances of getting what THEY need or want.

NarCiS
21-07-2005, 22:12
Arathnir when you say 2 lvl 2s and a dragon, what equipment do you use for the Prince on the dragon? I'm interested because I have thought of this set up as well.
Thx
NarC

Lord Anathir
22-07-2005, 01:04
Prince, Vambraces of Defense, Ring of Corin, Heavy Armor, Great Weapon, Dragon
Lvl 2 ,Seer Channeler, Silver wand
Lvl 2, Ring of Fury, Jewel of Dusk
Banner of Sorcery on Dragon Princes.

feintstar
22-07-2005, 07:13
I'm not sure about you, but I never seem to leave home without a Banner of Sorcery. Too Bloody useful. Even with only 1 lvl2 in 1000 points, feild 12 Swordmasters just for the banner, take a ring of fury and you Own the magic phase.

Hannibal
22-07-2005, 09:29
Well, because there is a tendency to post the magic combos, I will post mine, too:

In 2000pts I regularly use:
mage, lvl 2, seer, dispel
mage, lvl 2, dispel, jewel of dusk
banner of sorcery

This is about 395 points and normally owns the magic phase wether you fight against magic heavy armies or low magic users.
Against magic heavy, you try to get that spell that forces miscasts (magic is fickle???) and two times drain magic. With 9 power dice on average you can cast each spell once and ruin the day of your opponent.
Against magic light users, you choose lore of heavens/lore of life depending on the terrain and go magic offensive. 9 power dice on average can cause some real pain. Second sign of amul from the lore of heavens in conjunction with RBTs are devastating.
This combo can also be used with all cav armies with great success. Simply use lore of shadows...
Lore of shadows can also be very useful if you fight against a cav heavy army. specially bretonnians often give you a headache, lore of shadows might be of help.

Sure, you can go more offensive in simply taking ring of fury for one of your fighting characters, maybe ring of corin, too.
The opportunities are near endless with HE magic, although HE magic isnīt that offensive like OrcsīnīGobbos or Skaven.

1000 pts:
Commander with radiam gem of Hoeth
level 2 mage with 2 dispel
the two dispels are there because I normally play against magic heavy users and I hate that slaanesh spells!

Hannibal

Harky
22-07-2005, 10:47
I would be very very very grateful if somebody writes a quick comparison between Swordmasters and White Lions.

Zeb
22-07-2005, 11:49
It really depends on how you are going to use them.

I use them in a MSU list. Small (10 models) with a Champion included. Both have advantages:

Swordmastgers almost always strike first against RnF, due to I5. But there are units out there that are faster; mainly Witches and Black Guard in the Druchii army and Phoenix Guards and Dragon Princes in a High Elf army, Eternal Guard and Wardancers among the Wood Elfs etc. A 5+ save in close combat is a nice thing as well.

The White Lions are quite good as well, better save vs shooting (4+) but worse in combat (6+). Nifty rules as woods men and possibly stubborn. Strength 4 doesn't hurt either, so with GW the do get S6...

I prefer the WL as flankers/detachments, while I think that Swordmasters are better in a regiment sized unit (16+).

I actually tool my champ in the WL unit; Sword of Battle (or what ever that +1A is called) and Enchanted Shield gives him 3 attacks and a combat save of 4+. Nice, and with a S4 he is bound to take at least one (usually two) of the opposition away, before they can strike. This helps the unit survive and a better chance of hiting hard with S6...

It's not a good sum up, but I hope it helps.

johnblund
22-07-2005, 18:42
i am thinking of getting a smal unit of WL (10-12) to use as a flanking unit.
IMO Swordmasters works better as a support unit rather then a big center unit.
they get to little attacks and die to easy. both Swordmasters and WL is great in combination whit a big block of spearelves.

Lord_Sanguinius
22-07-2005, 18:48
i'd much rather buy 2 bolt throwers and a great eagle. and if i had to pick rare infantry it would be phoenix guard which cause fear ;) .

NarCiS
22-07-2005, 18:51
@ Lord Arathnir : You are going through the battle with a Prince with a re-rollable 5+ save and a 4+ save mounted on top of a 3 storey building for easier hitting?
I have one little tip: Give him an enchanted shield for 3+ re-roll against shooting as that's where the largest threat will come from, it would be pretty lame to have him die to bowfire:P

@ Zeb : I prefer Swordmasters honestly, and not just because they are special and White Lions are rare. Initiative striking, higher initiative and WS all make for better all-round flankers. Taking a champion is something I'm a fan of too. Those elite elf units can have their champion challenge, and beat (with the right gear) many goblin, skaven and human heroes. This is something I love seeing.
for champion gear try: Sword of Battle/Enchanted Shield for White Lions/Swordmasters/Phoenix Guard and Helm of Fortune for Dragon Princes. There is nothing like a champion with a 1+ re-rollable armor save :)

Thx
NarC

ElfGuy
22-07-2005, 20:09
A fully commanded unit of twenty Swordmasters is great for going toe to toe with enemy blocks and killing models turn after turn. They are pretty effective against undead, dwarf, chaos, and empire infantry. It's also nice to have a hardy block to carry the Banner of Sorcery. The Bladelord may also carry a magical trinket if you have some points to burn. The Blessed Tome is quite nice since your general is entirely random, also a good way to get 10 leadership without a Prince. The Amulet of Fire or Purifying Flame can provide a little extra magic protection to keep the unit in tact and ready to fight. If only the Sacred Incense was 5 points cheaper...

The problem with Swordmasters is that a large unit can get really expensive and often cannot justify it's own points cost. Opponents will avoid the unit, shoot it until it's worthless, or send calvary to crush it in one fell swoop. Beside all that, elves are not meant to be fighting the war of attrition. The need to do the damage on the charge and break the unit, which is why our Silver Helms are so effective. As a rule, I tend to steer away from fielding Swordmasters. Spearelves can acomplish much of what the Swordmasters can, but at a lower cost and without wasting a special choice.

White Lions, in my opinion, show a great deal more promise than the Swordmasters. Unfortunatly without knowing in advance who the general will be, the Bodyguard rule is wasted on the White Lions. Costing a valuable rare choice and not being able to field multiple units also hurts the units playability. The Lion Guard honor does soften the restriction allowing them to be purchased as a special choice.

An uncommanded unit of 10 can be really effective shock troops or as a flanking force. WS5 and S6 means your hitting and wounding almost everyone on 3's and 2's, with a minus 3 armour save modifier. Very few elf units can boast that. A 4+ save against shooting is exellent for elven infanty. If you get a solid charge off, your 6+ armour save should not be that big a deal. The Woodsmen ablility allows them to move through woods without penalty, letting you to set up some premium charges. You can also use them to purge the woods of small beastherds, skinks, and scouts.

A Lion Guard Commander in a unit of Spearelves gives you an elf block that can hold a charge allowing for your White Lions to counter charge. If the opponent charges the White Lions, you can flee and counter charge with your Spearelves and a Tiranoc Chariot. The Lion Guard honor is also useful on a Commander or Prince who rides a flying mount. You can charge a unit and pin it in place while your other units set up their own charges.

Harky
22-07-2005, 20:18
So do you use the Lion Guard honour often? How cost effectice is it in a 2000pt game? I often wanted to take it but it costs the same as armour of the gods and that settled it :D

I agree with you on the Sacret Incense bit. I mean that item would give back the SM their special rule from the previus edition of WH. Seems to me GW sent us a big ****** you with that one. ;)

Eldanar
22-07-2005, 20:31
I pretty much agree with everything Elfguy said, with the caveat that I'm not too impressed with either swordmasters or white lions (but I typically still have to field at least one in order to get the Banner of Sorcery).

IMHO, the Lionguard Honour is one of the best, and typically least utilized, abilities in the army.

feintstar
23-07-2005, 02:03
Umm, it is, until you notice that it takes up effectively all your magic allowance and gives your hero (usually on foot for stubborn to be of any use) a maximum of 3+ save. With Toughness three and 2 wounds, he could easily be killed by ether a unit champion, or an enemy hero, or ust rank and file selecting him out on the charge (particularly Rank and file that happend to be armed with Lances.)

This means that your expensive hero will more likely than not die in the first round of combat, thus wasting the stubborn ability. The only way to get around this is a wierd one that Lord Anathir pointed out; to turn the unit so that it is charged in the flank.

The other way is to give it to a prince, or better yet, to a dragonlord. Who cares about combat res and ranks when you're just killin, killin andd killn?

Lord_Sanguinius
23-07-2005, 02:40
if i use a commander and i probably will, i'll give him a reaver bow. thats almost like him attacking in close combat just with 3 attacks and strength 5 on every hit. its just like him in close combat just no great weapon and nobody can attack back :evilgrin: .

Eldanar
24-07-2005, 06:20
Umm, it is, until you notice that it takes up effectively all your magic allowance and gives your hero (usually on foot for stubborn to be of any use) a maximum of 3+ save. With Toughness three and 2 wounds, he could easily be killed by ether a unit champion, or an enemy hero, or ust rank and file selecting him out on the charge (particularly Rank and file that happend to be armed with Lances.)

This means that your expensive hero will more likely than not die in the first round of combat, thus wasting the stubborn ability. The only way to get around this is a wierd one that Lord Anathir pointed out; to turn the unit so that it is charged in the flank.

The other way is to give it to a prince, or better yet, to a dragonlord. Who cares about combat res and ranks when you're just killin, killin andd killn?

Why would you want to restrict it to a Hero? Why not put it on a magelord or on a prince, and have them lead the unit. 24 stubborn spear are one of the hardest things in the game to break. I almost never put it on a hero for just the reasons you dilineated. But then again, I rarely field HE heros, except in heavy cav units and with one of the two bound spell items.

And I am not a real big fan of dragons period. These models are more typically chosen by the more novice/power gaming players. Too many points are invested in them (typically 1/4 of your armies points at 2,000), particularly when their best role is as a support unit. Can they be devestating and win some games...yes. But they also will attract every cannon ball or lightning bolt available to your oponent. No, I reserve dragons for games of about 5,000 points or more, where I can afford the be a little extravagent with my points.

Harky
24-07-2005, 09:17
So the Lion Cloak gives the mage a 5+ save against range attacks and does not count as armour?

Zeb
24-07-2005, 09:38
Yepp, add a level 2 with Light magic (and choose spells) and you can heal your Archmage/Prince as well (but I'm not sure that it can be cast into combat)...

EDIT: It says anywhere on the table. But it doesn't say that you can cast it into combat, so my intrepertation is that you can't. But the casting value is as "high" as 7+... :angel:
Damn, I had forgotten how good Lore of Light is... :evilgrin:

NarCiS
24-07-2005, 10:26
Zebbie Zebbie Zebbie

Anywhere on the table really means Anywhere on the table, you know?
The Prince could be fighting 3 Hydras, he will still be "somewhere on the table"
you think too much mate :)

NarC

EDIT
I like the good old Danse Macabre Slam for my elfs.
Get a Mage with Seer and Channeler, pick the shadow lore
then pick Unseen Lurker and slam those cavalry units into those flanks!
yay! magically animated elfs

Zeb
24-07-2005, 10:35
I belive there was an statement that said; you could only cast a spell into combat if it stated so in the spell. But that might be damage spells...

That was the thing with "Word of Pain" before as an exapmle. That's why! ;)

NarCiS
24-07-2005, 10:39
I have a question, last night I was wondering this but I couldnt find the answer, can you cast spells with wizards that are in combat?

Zeb
24-07-2005, 12:12
Spells that require no LOS, yepp.

LOS requering , nope.

NarCiS
24-07-2005, 19:20
ok thanx,

lets get back to the tactica :

Heroes:
Mages/Commanders?
BSB: yes/no ? why?
dragons?griffons?eagles?horsies?

Grey-Knight
25-07-2005, 03:01
as the commander/mage arguemnt goes, i believe mages should be the dominant hero choice in any high elf army, they have the widest selection of magic and the potental to be one of the most powerful spellcasting armies in the game and therefore mage is obvious choice, however a commander or two in 2000 points is a good investment, since elves are frail as is, a bit of combat punch in a basic spearman unit or some extra umph in a silver helm unit is always welcome.

BsB's are useless unless they are mounted, a 5+ save (or 4+ if you want helm of fortune) is just to frail to be in front rank with any sort of banner, it is a waist of a hero slot if on foot. In cavalry they are amazing however, heavy armor, barded horse, battle banner, its almost an instant win in combat against all but the very lucky units. Other then the battle banner the bsb is not very good as elves have good leadership as it is and any other banner the bsb would carry, a unit can carry as well.

Dragons are just a no no in my books, very hard to make points back and it is a big bullseye to anyone with any shooting, terror is nice however other things cause terror for cheaper...

Griffons are sometimes ok, in large games they can be useful or against horde armies w. low leadership, though still a maybe unless 3k+ games because it is poitns better spent otherwhere.

eagles are great!, for 50 points why not?, as mounts they rock, march blockers are also very very nice... a very good investment.

Zeb
25-07-2005, 07:45
BsB's are useless unless they are mounted, a 5+ save (or 4+ if you want helm of fortune) is just to frail to be in front rank with any sort of banner, it is a waist of a hero slot if on foot. In cavalry they are amazing however, heavy armor, barded horse, battle banner, its almost an instant win in combat against all but the very lucky units. Other then the battle banner the bsb is not very good as elves have good leadership as it is and any other banner the bsb would carry, a unit can carry as well.


I actually wrote an article in the Oracle about BSB's, and this was the approach I went hardest after. It's the typical Cool Banner approach, and that's not why you incorporate a BSB in your list.

Are you outnumbered with your elfs? Most probably.

Can you afford to have a unit run away because they lost combat by one or two? Nope.
And there is no such thing as luck in that case, adding a BSB will make you stand over 75% of the time on a Ld 7 break test, because you have a reroll.
Are you still unlucky when a unit breaks you unit and you don't have a BSB, or are you just very brave (there are other words to use instead of brave...)?

If you look at most turnament winners they have included a BSB, why? Well, I tell you one thing, it's not to have a cool banner, that's for sure.
If you are outnumbered, you need to break as many of your opponents units as possible. Take it one step futher, how about adding that you don't want your units to break.
You limit the influence of a bad dice roll, that's why.

If there are any armies that will benefit from a BSB and never/seldom includes them it's small elite armies, such as Elfs (any kind) and Chaos.

And let me tell you, High Elfs has an item that is more or less tailored to a BSB;
ARMOUR OF THE GODS.

Add any weapon you want, most widly used is Sword of Might. For a 3+ save and a S6. Bad idea??? Nope.

Bodyguard, a unit of Swordmasters, White Lions, I like the Phoenix Guard models so I use them (10 and a Champ, I6 makes them strike before Swordmasters and as fast as Witch Elfs) or Spearelfs, they work great as well. You can actually hide him in a unit of Shadow Warriors if you want.
You can also feild him without a bodyguard and just stick him close to units not to be picked out.

Sorry for the rant, but this is a question that is very close to my heart. ;)

NarCiS
25-07-2005, 10:35
Yay for Zeb
you smashed his ignorance right back in his face matey. nice one there.
Armour of the Gods is 3+ save and +1S for 35 points right ?
(I use a commander with radiant gem to cast second sign, to re-roll break tests, but considering BSB)

Zeb
25-07-2005, 11:24
Yepp, Armour of the Gods = Power Armour...

And it doesn't matter what army I play of the armies I got at home (Dark/High/Wood Elfs, Chaos Mortals/Beasts) the BSB is down on the roster before I have figured out my lord choice (or if I need one)...

I just relised, that it's Enchanted Shield and Sword of Might I use on the WL Champion since the Sword of Battle is 20pts. But I have used it without any shield.

enyoss
25-07-2005, 11:50
i agree with the BSB neccessity. with troops as expensive as HE i just can't afford to lose an entire unit to one bad dice roll. you may get away with it for one or two games but it'll get you in the end!

as for how to field the guy, i think mounted is your safest bet. i'm always tempted to take him with Armour of the Gods (and have done before) but still find that against the barrage of attacks he always takes he gets tonked into the ground pretty sharpish. these days i've started to accept that he's there for the flag not the damage and just try to give him as much protection as possible.

cheers,

enyoss

ElfGuy
25-07-2005, 16:39
I'm not a fan of Elven Battle Standard Bearer's. Unless you want a Battle Banner in one of your cavalry units. As a rule, elven infantry cannot take a charge and shouldn't be trusted in doing so. I'd rather have a Lion Guard Commander than a BSB to keep my Spearelves in place. With a BSB you might still lose combat by so much that breaking is unavoidable. With a Lion Guard commander you can hit by Brettonian cavalry in the flank an still hold. Not only that, the BSB is worth additional victory points when defeated.

Like I said in my previous post though, elves are meant to charge and break the enemy in one motion. A defensive elven list is doomed when facing many other more aggressive and powerful armies. Elves need to take full advantage of their speed which would discorage the use of a BSB and the Lion Guard. There is nothing wrong with wanting your units to take a charge, I just think the BSB is an overcostly and ineffective way to do so.

johnblund
25-07-2005, 17:17
sometimes I use a bsb whit the armour of the gods and a sword of might.
3 st6 A from a bsb is very unexpected, and evil. He is very usefull indeed.
But I dont really use the bsb that often. (Dont know why?)
But in my new list I will be using a prince whit lionguard instead.

*runs off to by that new model*

Grey-Knight
25-07-2005, 17:37
i was just stating my oppinion btw, though i suppose i was kinda ignorant :eyebrows:

NarCiS
25-07-2005, 18:25
I didn't mean it Grey-Knight, sorry.
And I disagree with the defensive elf list post.

With the choices we have we can hold any charge anyone throws at us
How is this line: Lion Guard Prince, Pure of Heart, Vambraces of Defense
20-25 Spearman unit, Lion Standard
BSB Commander w/ Armour of the Gods

Plz break that...
I know it's not impossible, but that surrounded by other units is a pretty decent line, especially with a heavens mage.

Zeb
25-07-2005, 20:30
I'm sorry if I sounded harsh (sp?), you stated an oppinion, I stated mine. And since I'm into reserch I'm used to bild my argument, and I guess I got carried away. ;)

Concerning a stubborn unit, the can break due to a bad roll anyway. Trust me I know, I learned the hard way. But most people think a BSB is for pure defensive armies, the reroll is an incurence for the times you attack and roll average/bad and your oppnent roll good. These things happen.
I run a MSU/MSE list, I know how to flee, and get chargers off to the right unit. But sometimes the dice are against you, and the BSB is the insurence that it won't be to bad.

I have actually run him blank (HA only) just to get the rerolls.

And NarCiS, you can only reroll a dice once. ;)

Lord Anathir
25-07-2005, 21:51
I agree with elf guy to some extent. It comes down to what you call a defensive list.
If you are thinking of making a unit stubborn using Lion Guard, it simply doesnt work. If you want rock solid defensive infantry based army with high leadership and great missile troops, play dwarves, because, they simply OWN the cornerstone tactic.
@ Narc, its not about breaking that unit, its about whats going to happen to the rest of your army while your 500 point unit of 5+ AS unit gets shot to hell.
I also agree with elf guy when he says elves are meant to break on the charge. It doesnt mean that they shuold always field all cavalry armies, it means that spear-elves should not be used to hold up the enemy longer then 1 turn (or if any at all).

NarCiS
25-07-2005, 22:13
@ Arathnir, could you post your tournament army list? I'd love to see what Mr.know-it-all (I mean that in a nice way :P) fields in a battle...

Lord Anathir
26-07-2005, 01:01
sure.

Lvl 4 Archmage, Silver Wand, Scroll, Ring of Corin
Commander, Steed, Barding, Shield, Dragon Armor, Radiant Gem of Hoeth, Lance, PoH
10 Archers
18 Spears wSB
17 Spears wSB
5 Silver Helms
5 Silver Helms
5 Dragon Princes + SB + Champ + Amulet of PF + Banner of Sorcery
5 Shadow Warriors
2 Chariots
2 RBT
2 Eagles
8-10 PD + 1 Bound Spell
5 DD + 1 Scrolls
Total: 1999

I saw a list on the internet once that had a commander and a archmage for heros. Both Leadership 9....its a very good idea. My original list had swordmasters with the blessed tome in between the spearmen, making the centre leadership 10. I dropped them for archers, but im not sure which is better yet. I wont say what my tactics are yet...cuz...u'll see. (my tactica is almost done.)

feintstar
26-07-2005, 05:46
Cool Anathir. I might have to borrow some concepts.

I can see Anathir's List is very flexible and capable of doing just about anything, while that's really cool and fun, I personally wouldn't be able to theme it well enough for my personal taste.

Furthermore, while it is arguably a magic heavy list, my Warhammer schooling has taught me to never go by halves when trying to dominate a phase, and to therefore throw as many points into magic as possible, or else your expensive archmage will never get a spell off against other magic armies, or anyone with decent magic defence.

That's why I've always thought that the only option, when it comes to balancing the magic phase with the other phases, was to take the Book of Hoeth, and ignore the Magic phase apart from that.


But lastly, I've always wondered what stops a cavalry elf list from countercharging from a defensive position, backed up by RBTs that force your opponent to close with you, i.e. a trap? Could you defend RBTs with cavalry any less than you could with infantry? I don't see how... You might even try Shadow warriors to defend the Warmachines, if desperate, while keeping your cavalry hidden from enemy warmachines, and out of range of gun-line shooting... It sounds so plausible to me, why don't other people think it would work?

NarCiS
26-07-2005, 08:14
LOL arathnir, that looks so much like the list I posted earlier,well, hero wise anyway.
Maybe it was my list you saw then ;) Only I prefer the ring of Fury over the ring of Corin for the Archmage.
nice list though

Lord Anathir
26-07-2005, 18:27
All armies can work, it just depends on the skill of the player and the tactics he employs.

and Narc, it's spelt anathir ;)

@feintstar, I once wrote this list with 4 RBT, a unit of archers, the reaver bow, the bow of seafarer and 4 or 5 units of cav/chariots. It was NASTy, but im not sure it would work. Because, your cavalry looses its mobility as it has to stay put and defend the warmachines.

NarCiS
26-07-2005, 20:25
LOL lies
You will always be Arathnir to me buddy :)

Lord Anathir
27-07-2005, 01:35
LOL. I officially hate lustria (and any games below 2000 points). I just lost my third game in a row. That hasnt happened since....hmph.

Well, you can say Ive come to respect tomb kings magic, particularily the movement spell. I had it cast three times, and i dispelled it all three times, then he used his jar thingy, and he cast it for the FOURTH time in the same phase....and i just couldnt do anything. The fact that I can't take eagles really pisses me off ( ican, but they will be movement 12 ithink). I really rely on them

fubukii
27-07-2005, 05:14
does the tomb king movement spell work exactly like vanhels dance? im not to familar with the tomb kings

Lord Anathir
27-07-2005, 19:55
no, its even worse (worse for us, better for them). The can cast it with all of their mages, and they get a free movement phase (just one unit). So you can have a unit of tomb chariots (fast cav), that come off the table edge (say they persued off), and move around that forest, in the magic phase they get another movement phase, meaning they can charge, move again, whatever. and then cuz they are fast cav they can shoot their bows in the shooting phase.

so technically, if the spell goes off they have a 21 inch charge (7 normal movement and 14 charge)

Teh mistake i did was advancing towards the enemy, that was my 2nd game vs tomb kings, so il be ready for em next time grrrr...

fubukii
27-07-2005, 20:12
i see so in theory its about the same spell only they have it on every mage, rather then 1 or 2 mages and a bound item. Sounds wicked ^.^

Acheron
27-07-2005, 22:27
Chariots, lots of them.

shadowprince
23-08-2005, 22:44
The major problem with high elves is not the army but the incopetents useing them. If the mighty HE are your first army you are pretty much screwed for a while unless you are a natural tactian. One nof the nmajor things in High elfs is you don't really want to max characters a good rules of thumb for 2000 pts is 1 archmage and 1 lv2 mage. Drop the combat guys is u have the points in moddles to do it. Unless you are playing all calvary but that army has serios flaws. Also item wise the HE are the most powerful haveing in my opinion the overal best items in the game. I can also not stress this enough. YOUR CHARACTERS ARE SUPPORT CHARACTERS. if you want power houses you are playing the wrong army. Also spear elfs are spectacular infantry with at least 15 attacks and a high Iniative they will destroy most non elite unites. Next your elite unites are not stand alone power houses either they don't have the T, but are support to add that punch. Also high elfs work well when useing the theory the best defense is a strong offense. Use a mix force, where you use your calvary to eliminate the outliers and gang charge unites. While you march your infantry behind . Also don't bother takeing archers or pheonix guard. Archers are hard press to do the damage they need, and for the feer of pheonix guard to work you need at least 20 wich is 300 poins without command or standard, I love the models but these suckers need to be redone. The power of the high elfs is the ability to execute tactics better then really any other model. A High Elf force under a good general is frighteneing to use. Inpersonally havent lost in 50 games with them and, have won my last two tournaments against good players. They also got me in second in last years Emperors Champion tournement.

Eldacar
24-08-2005, 06:43
One nof the nmajor things in High elfs is you don't really want to max characters a good rules of thumb for 2000 pts is 1 archmage and 1 lv2 mage.
Not really. You can get by in 2k without any Lord choices at all. Archmages aren't all they're cracked up to be, two level 2's do just fine for the same or less cost.


Also spear elfs are spectacular infantry with at least 15 attacks and a high Iniative they will destroy most non elite unites.
*laughs*
They are overpriced and underpowered. You want good infantry, go look at the Lizardmen or the Wood Elves (who with the Eternal Guard, now have one of, if not the, best block infantry units in the game).


Also high elfs work well when useing the theory the best defense is a strong offense. Use a mix force, where you use your calvary to eliminate the outliers and gang charge unites.
The strongest "power choice" for the High Elves is the all-cavalry + Seer Council approach, actually.

shadowprince
24-08-2005, 22:22
first i never said you needed a lord, but personally if you take a llord i suggest an archmage, next spear elves are good, the only advantage eternal guard have is stubbern both unites have the same amount of attacks, also i belkive lizadman infantry only get one rank attacking, so kill five and their running, with spear elves kill 5 and you are still getting at least 11 attacks back. All calvaryarmies just have way to many many weakness, but are effective, but truly well balanced high elves will easily defeat an all calvary high elf list.

Eldacar
25-08-2005, 00:52
next spear elves are good, the only advantage eternal guard have is stubbern both unites have the same amount of attack
Spearelves are overpriced for what they do by about a point or so. Eternal Guard are much, much better. When there is a Noble with them, they are Stubborn. They can fight in an extra rank if they so with. They are also LD9, or 10 if they have a Highborn leading them. Added to all that, they get an extra attack due to their weapons, and have a better WS than a Spearelf. And do you know how much they cost? 12 points. They are leagues ahead of Spearelves, and are only one point more expensive.


but personally if you take a llord i suggest an archmage
Why? You don't need an Archmage, and taking a Prince gives you access to LD10.


also i belkive lizadman infantry only get one rank attacking, so kill five and their running
Not having the Lizardmen army book on me right now, but I think that they get spears. And do you know what spears do? They let you fight in two ranks. Not to mention that Saurus infantry are damn hard. Scaly Skin, Cold-blooded, and so on. You won't be killing five of them. You'll be lucky to get near that many before they kill you. And they can do it with relative ease.


All calvaryarmies just have way to many many weakness, but are effective, but truly well balanced high elves will easily defeat an all calvary high elf list.
Not really. Haven't you heard of cavalryhammer before? Playing MSU style with an all-cav force is an easy way to win. They can easily beat a balanced force, since they have the advantage of both movement and a better armour save.

Put simply: It sucks, but the easy way to win with HE is to take an all-cavalry force with lots of magic.

shadowprince
25-08-2005, 01:15
I am sorry all calv list is a power gameing so you really need to realize there are major problems with this list as they have to break the unit on the first turn of cobat, so against undead demons and slayer you are just screwed. Balanced is the way to go.

Eldacar
25-08-2005, 03:41
I am sorry all calv list is a power gameing so you really need to realize there are major problems with this list as they have to break the unit on the first turn of cobat, so against undead demons and slayer you are just screwed. Balanced is the way to go.
Right.

Yes, you break on the charge. Now, if you have 6 or 10 knights coming at you from the front, and another 5 coming in from the side, conveniently nullifying any rank bonus your ranked up infantry block may have, you're in trouble. They're charging, so they will be hitting with S5. Against most things, they will generally always succeed in doing plenty of damage to you.

Against undead it is a little different. An Undead army depends almost entirely on the General. Without that leader, they will fall apart. So, with the Undead, you kill the General (or Heirophant if you're playing against Tomb Kings), and you've virtually won. All you need are a few good charges, and basically make sure you don't lose too much, and the Undead will crumble away.

Slayers are, again, different. But the same principle applies. You use your superior speed to pick and choose your fights. You don't get stuck into a combat where it will be prolonged and you don't have a very good chance of winning.

Now, just as a reference: Cavalry have a 2+ AS (when they take the Heavy Armour). Spearelves have a 4+ if they take HW&Shield, and they lack in the movement area. Have you ever had a bunch of Slayers slam into your expensive 200+ point Spearelves? It isn't pretty. Where, by contrast, you have a unit of 5 SH that costs about 110 points, is less likely to be charged (thanks to their superior movement), can nullify ranks when they hit the flank of an enemy unit and has a better AS overall. Who wins? It certainly isn't the Spearelf unit.

Ranged firepower can also be fixed with the simple addition of the Seer Council to an all-cavalry list. The overwhelming magic fixes any problems that may or may not have existed in the Shooting department.

Against Daemons, you have the bonus of the Seer Council. So Daemons get a Daemonic Ward Save. Big deal. You can still outrun them, outmove them, and in addition to magic (which can nullify their save in the case of a non-Daemonic Legion), you have the ability to still choose your fights. Daemonic Legion requires a slight shift in tactical thinking, but the same principle applies.

High Elf All-cavalry isn't all about just charging across the board like the Bretonnians do. You have to pick where and when you will fight. And it isn't that hard to combine charges at all.

shadowprince
25-08-2005, 04:22
yes but Normally the slayers will not brake the spear elfs on the first turn this allows you to slam in both flanks with cav then finish off the slayers with the 15 attaks from the spear elvs, look Eldacar I am guessing you are a good general, and I know I am we just have different approaches to how to use our elvs, both ways works, an all cav army is devastating and fast on the charge, and I have never said that the Silver healms are bad, but a balanced army works as well, go ahead and say it doesn't, but I constantl win tournements and have roughly a 90% win rate with it, when I used an all calv list It was around 50%. So to use the elf infantry or not isn't whether the spear elfs are bad but in the way you play style uses them

Eldacar
25-08-2005, 05:24
Normally the slayers will not brake the spear elfs on the first turn
If that's what you're basing that on, then you have to take unit size into account. Trollslayers are not the best unit to draw comparisons with, because they will usually upgrade into Giantslayers. In a unit of 15, when you have all of them as S4 3A maniacs, you are looking at a big problem for your little Spearelves.


go ahead and say it doesn't
Straw Man arguments don't work. Don't use them. I didn't say balanced doesn't work. What I said was that all-cavalry armies work easier.


but I constantl win tournements and have roughly a 90% win rate with it, when I used an all calv list It was around 50%.
And this means what exactly? I have enough wins with all-cav, balanced and all-infantry (yes, I have used all three combinations before, numerous times) that I couldn't care less what you've won or lost. Maybe you're just using the cavalry wrong. Ever think of that?


So to use the elf infantry or not isn't whether the spear elfs are bad but in the way you play style uses them
Overpriced <> Bad.
Cavalry > Infantry when used right.
Infantry <= Cavalry when used right.

I repeat my earlier statement. If you have a unit of 6 coming at you from the front, and you picked Spears and Shields (obviously, for the rank of attacks). That is a 5+AS. In case you didn't know, S5 negates that. That unit has hit you from the front, but you aren't worried, right? Because you have your ranks? When another unit hits you in the side, that bonus goes out the window. If you want to prevent this, you need the ability to quickly move and counter such attacks before they can hit you.

shadowprince
25-08-2005, 06:00
I agree with you for gods sake all calv armies do work but they do have some flaws. and the slayers probably werent a god example should have gone with a large unit of like 30 skeletons, without character. Plus i don't use all infantry listed, and I use the infanty to hold the senter with my unit of Helm for the flanks. This way they dont get flanked.

Eldacar
25-08-2005, 07:07
all calv armies do work but they do have some flaws.
So do balanced and all-infantry armies. Both of which have more flaws than the aforementioned all-cav army.

hairyman
25-08-2005, 09:09
Err... sorry to butt in, but I was hoping I could get some advice on this thread...

In the process of putting together my first WFB army (no more 40k for me). I'm targetiing 1,000 points of HE's, and am uncertain about what to do with my cavalry. The 1000 points will all be core units, bar either an eagle or RBT, and I've been lurking about reading what people have been posting about silver helms. I don't want an all cav. force, I want a mix to get a feel for the different unit types, but as I've been glueing together my cavalry I've been uncertain of the make up of the units I want.

I'm guessing units of 5 are used for flank charges, and bigger units are used to take on units head on? If you were going to go for a larger unit in 1000 points what size would you recommend, and would you include standard & stuff? Is it worth giving command upgrades to a smaller squad? Is their a commonly accepted effective unit size for helms, and is the armour upgrade an automatic choice, or one to pick up only if you have the spare points?

Cheers.

Eldacar
25-08-2005, 09:26
I'm guessing units of 5 are used for flank charges, and bigger units are used to take on units head on? If you were going to go for a larger unit in 1000 points what size would you recommend, and would you include standard & stuff? Is it worth giving command upgrades to a smaller squad? Is their a commonly accepted effective unit size for helms, and is the armour upgrade an automatic choice, or one to pick up only if you have the spare points?
Right, the following is on the assumption that you have a mixed force, and that you already have some Spearelf blocks.

Generally, a unit of 5, preferably 6, will work best. If possible, get two or three units of these guys. 5 is more movable, but 6 has the advantage that you can still negate ranks if one gets killed. Give them a champion and/or musician. Never take standards on small units like this, they're just eavy VP's for the enemy.

If you were to take a larger unit, 10 or 12 will work. This is called the "Hammer", because it charges head-on into the enemy in a frontal charge while another smaller unit of 5 or 6 hits the side of the unit to negate ranks. Again, here you should be getting a Champion and Musician, but don't take a Standard Bearer unless you have to. If you are, then grab the Banner of Ellyrion. Having a unit of 10 or 12 Silver Helms come flying through of difficult terrain at full speed can really scare your opponent.

On the armour upgrade, always get Heavy Armour for them. It gives them that extra point or survivability, and is generally well-worth it.

Now, I wouldn't go for the Hammer unit in 1000 points, since smaller units work better and have more purpose to them (flankers, and so on), but if you are going to use an all-cav force in 1000 points, then take a Hammer. Since you're not, I wouldn't bother so much.

Note: Take Eagles. They're much more effective in small battles.

Another note: Don't take more than two characters in a 1k battle. On most occasions, don't even bother taking two. One Commander will work perfectly well.

hairyman
25-08-2005, 11:45
Thanks, that's really helpful. Think I'll go with two units of 5 for starters.

shadowprince
25-08-2005, 23:23
The problem with the all calv list is it cannot take a charge. and if it doesn't break the people on the first ties becuase sometimes you just won't your done, thus why spear elfs and swordmasters arre nice to take in addition.

Eldacar
26-08-2005, 06:34
The problem with the all calv list is it cannot take a charge. and if it doesn't break the people on the first ties becuase sometimes you just won't your done, thus why spear elfs and swordmasters arre nice to take in addition.
Swordmasters can't take a charge, for starters. They are T3 5+AS models. Spearelves aren't that good at it either. The average lance will grant the bearer S5, which wounds elves on a 2+ and takes the 4+ AS from the HW&Shield combination down to a 6+, or if they use the Spear&Shield combination, leaves you with no AS at all.

Second, cavalry armies aren't supposed to take a charge. With their high movement, they're the ones who are supposed to be charging. If you let them get charged, then you are clearly doing something wrong.

Third, if you aren't going to break on the charge, don't charge, or get some supporting flank attack units in to support you when you do attack to ensure that you will be breaking them. This is all basic cavalry tactics, you realise.

shadowprince
26-08-2005, 22:32
Ok lets go against basic calvary, in a unit of Five so we will say four hit and they kill four, thats a tied combat against spearelfs right there, ad thats being generouse. then roughly 12 attacks back we will say 6 hit 3 wind, and 1 calvary dies roughly. statisticaly rolling three dice roughly 50% of rolling 1 one. Also i know swordmasters arent supposesd to take a charge. they are great at charging other infantry. LAstly A full calvary will get charge, by Slannesh, flyers fast calv or skirmishers.

Xaviar
26-08-2005, 22:55
Ok lets go against basic calvary, in a unit of Five so we will say four hit and they kill four, thats a tied combat against spearelfs right there

As Eldacar already said, you don't simply throw cavalry into the front of an infantry unit if you cant break it. Instead you would use their movement of 16" to go around and eventually hit them in the flank. Then you would roughly cause 3 wounds and the spearelves (unable to take advantage of their spears due to the flank charge) would only get 2 attacks back doing nothing. That would be a combat res of 5/2 in the cavalry favour causing the spearelves to take a leadership test at leadership 5.

enyoss
27-08-2005, 01:23
Enough... please!

A quick question to those who take eagles. Apart from march blocking (and taking out the odd war machine) what other uses do people have for eagles? I thought the march blocking would be useful but against brets I find it just doesn't make a significant difference. In fact, I've found that canny deployment with the army overall seems to buy just as much time and manoeverability. Any other experiences on this?

Cheers,

enyoss

Eldacar
27-08-2005, 02:11
Firstly, shadowprince, Xavier beat me to it with regards to answering that. Second, Swordmasters may be good at charging other infantry, but when they're M5, and all other cavalry is M7 at least, they have a problem.

EDIT: And as to how cavalry armies get charged, why do you think, honestly, that a mixed force will escape it? You have even less chance of avoiding it than the cavalry do.


A quick question to those who take eagles. Apart from march blocking (and taking out the odd war machine) what other uses do people have for eagles? I thought the march blocking would be useful but against brets I find it just doesn't make a significant difference. In fact, I've found that canny deployment with the army overall seems to buy just as much time and manoeverability. Any other experiences on this?
The following is taken from an article on Asur.org written by Elthair on the usage of support units:

Flyers

The high elf army gets flyers in the form of great eagles, most certainly one of the most useful units in the game and the best unit in the entire army list. These are mandatory, and it would be safe to say I have fallen in love with them.
They have a great movement of 20, and can pass any obstacle or unit, and land watching in any direction. Due to this, they are useful for many things:

- First of all, you get a good statline for 50pts: a ws5, s4, I5, a2, w3,ld8 guy who can fly as mentioned above.

- March stoppers. Slowing enemy moving towards you and really disturbing him.

He can't move his whole army it's maximum range, giving you more time to shoot at it, or make them attack piecemeal if your opponent is not too bright. This is done in the same way as fast cavalry stops marches: stick em within 8" and you're done.

- They are the best war machine hunters that HE can get. A lone eagle can make almost every warmachine to cease fire. Against dwarves a single eagle will have to struggle to win, but even getting them in CC stops a warmachine from firing, allowing your army to get near relatively safe.

- Protect your own army from enemy flyers. Fell Bats, harpies and other things can easily be intercepted, thus stopping them from causing havoc in your bolt-thrower battery.

- Protect your cavalry from swarms with eagles. What I really hate are his swarms that usually try to attack my cav's flank. Eagles can easily intercept them, tie em up for the entire game and/or destroy them in most cases.

- Fearfactor: two Eagles moving to the flank of a unit often cause critical mistakes, and the winner is the general who makes the least of them. Not to mention they often draw fire and attention beyond their real danger once you opponent saw them ruining his plans once. Note that this obviously doesn't mean that they aren't a danger!

- Eagles can be used to redirect enemy units, forcing them to show their flanks to your countercharge units just like Fast Cav: Place a great eagle at an angle in the charge arc of your enemy. Make sure he'll charge your frontal zone still, or he'll pile in in a way we don't like. Then, he'll have to align with the eagle exposing its flank: about the same as we did with Fast Cavalry earlier.
Its just easier because of their increased range, lower cost, and the ability to turn them in any direction after their flight move.

If you don't have a counterstrike unit ready, you can also sent enemy units to the middle of nowhere. Its likely that they kill or rout the eagle, get an overrun move in the direction they where facing or have to persuit. This can be used to send them into a wood or other difficult terrain, or to place them in a position where they bottleneck his entire force. Its not quite a reliable maneuver, but often works nonetheless.

The moves mentioned above can be pulled off because a great eagle is a monster: enemy units charging them will have to align with them as when charging units. This means that if you place it at an angle as obvious bait for any enemy, but so that he will still make a frontal charge. This makes sure that, if he charges, he has to wheel into align, showing its weak flank to a countercharge unit. If done right, you can sometimes even achieve that if the eagle is killed or flees (very likely) you can get a rearcharge!
The same thing can be used to send enemy units to a far corner of the field, taking them out of the game for 2/3 turns before they have manuevered back to the battle.

- Of course, Great eagles can be used for any other tactic that includes sacraficial units. At 50 pts, they are the best option for almost any of these.

shadowprince
27-08-2005, 05:25
Agreed the eagles are nice for the warmachine and characer hunting they provide to the elfen army. AND YOU ARE NOT ALWAYS GOING TO GET THE FLANK>

Eldacar
27-08-2005, 08:46
AND YOU ARE NOT ALWAYS GOING TO GET THE FLANK
1. Talking in caps doesn't make you more intelligent. In fact:

http://maddox.xmission.com/keyboard4.jpg

2. If you can't get a flank, then you can't charge and enter combat to the best effect (read: you only have a small chance of winning). Hence, there are two words to use in one situation. Don't charge.

A failure to understand this only reveals that someone is incapable of using basic, across-the-board cavalry tactics. Is it really so hard to understand? It's blindingly obvious.

shadowprince
28-08-2005, 19:33
lol caps picture funny. And that is a good point against most army but i was meaning against armies more mnuverable than elven calvary I realize there arent any but they are what I normally play against, SLannesh, Wood elfs, Dogs of warr skirmish based skinks. I know most people don't play these armies, but these are the armies I most commonly play, And in these cases All calvary is in a lot of trouble.

Eldacar
29-08-2005, 09:49
SLannesh, Wood elfs, Dogs of warr skirmish based skinks.
40K Lizardmen are a cheese army. Meet fire with fire here (at least, I do, and it encourages people to bring balanced forces to the table).

Wood Elves are new. There aren't many tactics out and about for beating them yet. Sooner or later, they'll surface. For now, however, people are still learning how to play them.

Slaanesh's main problem is their deadly magic. Counter with anti-magic, and you should regain the advantage.

Dogs of War are like toned-down Empire (in a sense). That's how I treat them.

So it isn't that much trouble, when you know how to counter them. MSU tactics rule (and you can, to a point, do it with infantry too, but I prefer to do it with cavalry if I'm going to use MSU).

shadowprince
29-08-2005, 22:59
u adressed none of the issues I had with them. The thing with slannesh demons I mean 20 inch charge range. And DoW Wood Elfs and Skinks their all manuvable and should never get charge by calvary if they don't want to. This means you calvary is getting charged in the flank most likly, mainly applies to skirmish armies and Slannesh, and then become inafective with just 2 str 3 attacks back. Also game club has a rule no customizing armies against others you stick with the same for the night.

feintstar
30-08-2005, 00:12
I heard another good Great Eagles tactic that wasn't mentioned which I haven't tried but it soundslike it'd work brilliantly against brettonians.

The Bret player has moved close enough to charge you. Now, take 2 GEs and place them on either flank of a Brettonian lance, just toward the rear of the unit.

Then, get your own units out from immediately in front of the brettonian lance. See what has happened? He can't wheel to charge. he can only charge immediately forward. He's totally stuck. Best yet, do this to Knights errant units led by heroes, and add in a bait unit that forces them to eventually run off the board. After all, there should be plenty of targets in charge range, some causing fear and terror, so they'll all be failing their errantry banner tests. Its just that they won't be charging what you want them to charge. :)

Lord Anathir
30-08-2005, 01:20
BRILLIANCE!!!! SHEER BRILLIANCE.....lmao.... thats sooo sweet. Of course, that can be adapted to work against other units as well.

remember that he can move forward, then wheel, then charge. So make sure to get ur unit as close as possible. (and put ur eagles towards the front of the unit)

feintstar
30-08-2005, 02:05
I'm glad you like it my lord arathnir, but sadly I cannot take full credit for this one...

Are you sure he can wheel midway through the charge? I thought he had to charge in a straight line; you could put in a wheel at the beginning and got a free wheel to allign to the enemy...

the other thing is though that if you put the eagles toward the front, then he can get a fair bit of angle from the back before hitting the eagle. Nevertheless, it will work to a large extent.

Lord Anathir
30-08-2005, 02:13
yup, he can wheel at any time during the charge. the rule is very usefull especiall when there is a forest in between the two units.

Eldacar
30-08-2005, 07:27
u adressed none of the issues I had with them. The thing with slannesh demons I mean 20 inch charge range. And DoW Wood Elfs and Skinks their all manuvable and should never get charge by calvary if they don't want to. This means you calvary is getting charged in the flank most likly, mainly applies to skirmish armies and Slannesh, and then become inafective with just 2 str 3 attacks back. Also game club has a rule no customizing armies against others you stick with the same for the night.
20 inches. So what? You can slow them down fairly easily by capitalising on other bonuses the HE have (such as magic, for one example), and then you can counter charge them.

DoW are toned-down Empire (IMO). I said to treat them that way. How did I not address your issue with them? If you can consistently lose to an army, re-evaluate your tactics.

Wood Elves are supposed to be maneouvreable. Nothing new here. And I say it again, when you have a new army book out, that army won't have anti-tactica for use against them until people get used to playing them.

The Skink army is a cheese army. What about it?

If you let highly maneouvreable cavalry get charged in the flank, then you are doing something wrong. There's no way about it.

What does game club rules have to do with it? 40K Lizzies/SAD/RAF/Undead Hordes can design themselves a power list that will take on all-comers. You aren't being clear.

shadowprince
31-08-2005, 03:22
yes 20 inches is a big deal 4 inches more than the SH on the charge. So they are chargeing. Skinks being cheesy isn't any help becuase they are still often played. and DoW arent toned down empire if played right, they can be highly highly manurvable with str4 armor pericing weopons. Plus skirmishers and fast calv demons aka slannesh is much more manurvable then the HE calvary, and sadly these are the only armies i really ever get to play against. but th weakness of most of these is they can't take away the rank bonuses so thats were spear elfs are very handy.

Eldacar
31-08-2005, 06:47
yes 20 inches is a big deal 4 inches more than the SH on the charge. So they are chargeing.
Only if you let them outmaneouvre you.


Skinks being cheesy isn't any help becuase they are still often played.
How do you normally deal with skirmishing skinks/scouts/Shades/whatever? Do the same with them, just more of it.


and DoW arent toned down empire if played right, they can be highly highly manurvable with str4 armor pericing weopons.
You're still faster than they are. And you get S5 on the charge, and will be charging. With a 2+ AS, you should survive long enough to get into combat. If you're trying to say that the S4 AP weapons mean that cavalry sucks, I've got news for you. Infantry will suck against them even more.


Plus skirmishers and fast calv demons aka slannesh is much more manurvable then the HE calvary, and sadly these are the only armies i really ever get to play against. but th weakness of most of these is they can't take away the rank bonuses so thats were spear elfs are very handy.
So, you face very fast armies. And you say you still keep your rank bonus. Your opponents must be pretty damn poor then, to not capitalise on their superior movement to crash into the flanks of your army.

shadowprince
31-08-2005, 22:49
ok good points on all but the skinks and slannesh. THe skinks i normally beet by haveing my infantry block for my calvary or vice versa becuase the infantry can soak up the casualties, without infantry there though i am pretty screwed. ANd you are saying outmanuver an all fast calv army with morespeed than me. I beat slannesh by using the silver helms to protect the flanks and counter charge when the infantry are hit. Good points on the DoW though

Eldacar
01-09-2005, 08:52
ANd you are saying outmanuver an all fast calv army with morespeed than me. I beat slannesh by using the silver helms to protect the flanks and counter charge when the infantry are hit.
Slaanesh is fast, but Eagles are faster. March block them and counter-charge the little beasts with the cavalry.


THe skinks i normally beet by haveing my infantry block for my calvary or vice versa becuase the infantry can soak up the casualties, without infantry there though i am pretty screwed.
Skinks should be treated the same way that anybody would treat a skirmisher army. I said that. Cavalry has methods for doing it, and infantry has different ones. If that's how you treat a skirmishing force, then what's the big deal about it?

shadowprince
02-09-2005, 03:29
good point to both but eagle are the same speed as slannesh. Base speed anyway. But other wise your right. Well anyone got ideas on slannesh becuase I ngot a big game against the cult of slannesh comeing up and they have always given me trouble.

Eldacar
02-09-2005, 07:53
good point to both but eagle are the same speed as slannesh. Base speed anyway.
Eagles can sit themselves right in front of the Slaaneshi, and happily set said Slaaneshi up for the perfect counter-charge. Base speed doesn't really mean much.

As for tactics, I'll have a think about it. There's a few options you can take.

shadowprince
03-09-2005, 01:10
well thank you the problem is normally the fast calv or demon prince takes out the eagles.

Eldacar
03-09-2005, 01:17
well thank you the problem is normally the fast calv or demon prince takes out the eagles.
Eagles can outpace the fast cavalry. A Daemon Prince can only get one at a time, so having two or more should be enough to let you get the tactic working with one, at least. Besides that, keeping the Daemon occupied with magical attacks will keep him busy trying to make sure that his general doesn't die, so you can use the march-block tactic while that's going on.

shadowprince
03-09-2005, 20:42
hmmm nic idea on that. Any ideas on how to handle the CoS army I think thats the only army i havent beteen.

The Black Knight
04-09-2005, 21:27
If you are taking spells then get as many fury of khaine's as possible. This can be done through the wunderful item known as the ring of fury and a dark elf army will be packing

shadowprince
07-09-2005, 05:09
hmm its a good spell but i wouldn't say its the best in the list personally i think Flames and Curse aer a bit more effecive

Eldacar
07-09-2005, 14:57
Flames needs to build itself up over successive turns to start getting really, really effective. Most opponents will see it coming and dispel it as soon as possible. What you could do is use movement-related Lores of Magic to limit the movement of your opponent, which then allows you to take advantage of your own movement to outdo him.

Lord Anathir
07-09-2005, 15:22
Allflames need to do is go off for one turn. That way, you will get one turn of str 3 hits, and another turn of st 4 hits (since it is at the beginning of the magic phase). after that, you can end the spell. Usually, on an infantry unit, 20 st3 and st 4 hits usually nearly wipes out the unit.

shadowprince
08-09-2005, 02:58
also they will be tryig to dispel it in their magic phase so thats three to four dice they won't be useing against you. Also against str three you should kill 25% statistically wise, then even more with the str 4 at the begging of their magic, so if they don't bother that uit is destoyed by the tine it gets back to you becuase then its str 5 its the ultimate infantry killer.

Eldacar
08-09-2005, 03:48
Usually, on an infantry unit, 20 st3 and st 4 hits usually nearly wipes out the unit.
Unless that unit happens to be Chaos Warriors, Knights, and so on. Against Horde armies, the hits can be quite useful, but against those elite, heavily armoured units, it is much more likely that your opponent will do everything he can to stop it going through.

It is an excellent spell, but an experienced opponent will do a lot to get rid of it, or stop it going through to begin with.

phusg
09-09-2005, 15:51
Hi guys, new here.

I just read this thread and didn't see anyone mention the Lothern Guard. Anything wrong with spearheading (sic) your army with them? You can get shots in and if cavalry charge then you can stand-and-shoot and fight back with three ranks.

phusg
09-09-2005, 15:52
Also haven't seen any mention of the maiden guard. I've got the models waiting to be painted, and so have never played them in a game. Any use?

shadowprince
09-09-2005, 19:16
Unless that unit happens to be Chaos Warriors, Knights, and so on. Against Horde armies, the hits can be quite useful, but against those elite, heavily armoured units, it is much more likely that your opponent will do everything he can to stop it going through.

It is an excellent spell, but an experienced opponent will do a lot to get rid of it, or stop it going through to begin with.

Look at it this way, if your oppenant is doing everything he can to stop the spell, and especially once it goes off, then thats a lot of energy he isn't spending somewhere else, and it isn't the spell against chaos elite, but to wipe out their support unites like maraders. Against tzentch it could be nice becuase its just more power dice you are depriving him.


Also lotheran seaguard are awful and really should only be use din the SOC list

Eldacar
10-09-2005, 03:06
Look at it this way, if your oppenant is doing everything he can to stop the spell, and especially once it goes off, then thats a lot of energy he isn't spending somewhere else, and it isn't the spell against chaos elite, but to wipe out their support unites like maraders. Against tzentch it could be nice becuase its just more power dice you are depriving him.
And again: Three dispel dice is enough to stop the spell, of which plenty of armies would have at least three, most likely many more.


I just read this thread and didn't see anyone mention the Lothern Guard. Anything wrong with spearheading (sic) your army with them? You can get shots in and if cavalry charge then you can stand-and-shoot and fight back with three ranks.
They're overpriced and underpowered. The only good way to play with them really is to use them in the SoC list, which in itself is both immensely boring to play and poor overall.


Also haven't seen any mention of the maiden guard. I've got the models waiting to be painted, and so have never played them in a game. Any use?
Maiden Guard are more useful in games of around 3000 points, because then you can take Alarielle along and use her with them. In smaller games, they aren't worth it, IMO.

shadowprince
10-09-2005, 05:45
Ok the flames of the pheonix thing we are saying that the book triggered it irristably, so thats a round of str3 and str4 on the unit. Then the guy dispels it with three power dice costing him depending on the army it could be very helpful of corse against chaos or magic heavy its only costing them a spell but for example against low power magic armies could be very helpful dropping off three of their powerdice.

Eldacar
10-09-2005, 08:06
but for example against low power magic armies could be very helpful dropping off three of their powerdice.
But why would a low-power magic army care if they lose three power dice? It isn't as though their battle plan was dependent on it, as yours seems to be. They didn't need the three dice for anything, so why bother caring about the fact that they've just used the dice to dispel it?

shadowprince
11-09-2005, 02:53
its not them caring aboutit buts its sparing u dispel dice for something else

Eldacar
11-09-2005, 05:51
Low power magic armies would typically have some magical defence, generally 4-5DD and 2 scrolls. That's enough to stop FotP from going through, as well as neutralise another spell, on top of which you still have scrolls.

shadowprince
11-09-2005, 18:36
good point but the original theory was it going off with irrisistable force so tha tmeans they are useing the scrolls and on their turn not really hurting the spells effectivness.

Eldacar
12-09-2005, 08:17
good point but the original theory was it going off with irrisistable force so tha tmeans they are useing the scrolls and on their turn not really hurting the spells effectivness.
It depends on what you aim it at. Also, if they can neutralise it before it starts really climbing, then they've taken it, and you've wasted all that spell power.

The Machine GoD
12-09-2005, 18:51
What makes lotherian guard horrible is what im wondering? The ability to shoot and still take a charge is decent.

shadowprince
13-09-2005, 04:16
on paper they are great. Bu 16 points is a little ridiculas for what they can do this makes them 1 of the more expensive infantries, with 5 armor save and three toughness, with only 5 str 3 ranged shots isn;t overlly effective.

Scabby
15-09-2005, 21:02
Yeah they get to be both poor archers AND poor fighters all for the cheap price of 16 points. Shame though as they have neat fluff and can look great.

shadowprince
16-09-2005, 23:43
It depends on what you aim it at. Also, if they can neutralise it before it starts really climbing, then they've taken it, and you've wasted all that spell power.

Hopfully somone won't be stupid enough to aim it at small Calvary units its an infantry killer. Also against a basic infantry the whole unit takeing str3 hits then str4 hits is pretty good without it getti g to str five, And we are saying in combination with book so their isn't a dispel chance when you cast it.

Strakar
24-09-2005, 06:47
Has anyone been able to field an infantry template in 2,000 points that has had much success?

I've been trying to squeeze in Phoenix Lords and Swordmasters (because I like the models) with a healthy dose of core spearmen, and there just aren't enough points. Especially because you would need a healthy dose of magic without speed and ranged support, with a few units to counter-punch along with the small SM unit.

Lowering the cost of all elf infantry by 1 point across the board would really help a list like that. Dark elf warriors look like a bargain now compared to their high elf counterparts, only losing one rank of attacks for a savings of 3 points each.

shadowprince
24-09-2005, 07:35
nope not really tried and failed

Lord_Sanguinius
29-09-2005, 01:39
Has anyone been able to field an infantry template in 2,000 points that has had much success?

I've been trying to squeeze in Phoenix Lords and Swordmasters (because I like the models) with a healthy dose of core spearmen, and there just aren't enough points. Especially because you would need a healthy dose of magic without speed and ranged support, with a few units to counter-punch along with the small SM unit.

Lowering the cost of all elf infantry by 1 point across the board would really help a list like that. Dark elf warriors look like a bargain now compared to their high elf counterparts, only losing one rank of attacks for a savings of 3 points each.

i dont really see how you can have a succesful high elf army thats under 2000pts. infantry is way too expensive and thats when i'd turn to another army for that sort of thing.

shadowprince
29-09-2005, 02:12
Yep high elfs all about balance they work well when the different parts can support each other.

Strakar
29-09-2005, 04:04
Well, you obviously can't have ALL infantry with the elves, as you still need some small silver helm units and possibly chariots for support.

Has there ever been any discussion about a revision like the Dark Elves got? I know High Elves are a popular army anyway, so GW has taken a stance to not mess with them. But wouldn't they be even more popular if players weren't pigeon-holed into a cavalry/magic force to be effective?

It wouldn't have to be too tough. A 1 or 2 point reduction on the spearmen and bowmen for starters, and an overhaul of the Phoenix Guard. For a 15-point T3 unit, I'd like to see them immune to psychology instead of causing fear, which is pointless when you need to buy 400 points worth to have a decent-sized unit. Since they also have elite WS, I, and Ld stats anyway, why not give them each 2 attacks? I'd contend PG are at least on par with the champions of lesser units. At least you would give players some debate on using their rare slots instead of always taking RBTs and eagles.

The elves are already competitive, but why have so much dead weight in the list when certain units are clearly overpriced? Variety can't hurt, and they wouldn't become overpowered if GW didn't touch the parts of the army that were balanced.

ph34r
30-09-2005, 02:38
It seems to me that all the infantry is overpriced... Cavalry has worked well with me but still has a hard time if you don't make your enemy flee. Especially if your enemy has some really hard unit, fear causing or unbreakable or something like that.

Lord_Sanguinius
30-09-2005, 04:01
yeah, i had to take things like that highly into consideration before starting them. i try to take on units that i know will break and flee from me every chance i get, but the only way to mow down tough stuff like you were saying would probably be either a bolt thrower or let all hell break loose with your magic on a certain unit.

Eldacar
30-09-2005, 13:19
i dont really see how you can have a succesful high elf army thats under 2000pts. infantry is way too expensive and thats when i'd turn to another army for that sort of thing.
You can. However, your skill as a general has to be much, much higher. Some HE infantry armies can do well, but you are playing at a huge disadvantage if you go with it. Nothing says that you can't win, it's just a lot harder.


It seems to me that all the infantry is overpriced...
It is.


i try to take on units that i know will break and flee from me every chance i get, but the only way to mow down tough stuff like you were saying would probably be either a bolt thrower or let all hell break loose with your magic on a certain unit.
This is correct as far as it goes that cavalry needs a combined charge to work really effectively. High Elf cavalry may be the easiest way to play them, but charging 6 Silver Helms into a fully ranked up unit on a frontal charge still won't win you the combat. You need to successfully combine charges and outmove your opponent so that you pick when and where combat starts, and you decide who will win (with suitable prayers and groveling before the almighty dice gods, of course :p ).


Has there ever been any discussion about a revision like the Dark Elves got? I know High Elves are a popular army anyway, so GW has taken a stance to not mess with them. But wouldn't they be even more popular if players weren't pigeon-holed into a cavalry/magic force to be effective?
After the 6th edition book came out, a lot of 5th edition powergamers started whining because it had been heavily nerfed. There were also others complaining because the Ravening Hordes list was far superior to the 6th edition AB. DE getting a revision only compounded the problem of all the whiners, and eventually, GW just said the equivalent of "shut up and go away, HE won't be getting any revisions". Nowadays, revisions will supposedly be model-based. Because HE armies still sell (the cavalry-magic variant), they won't be at the top of the revision list.

shadowprince
01-10-2005, 19:17
Eladacar welome back i was getting board. And i disadree that the ravening hords is better. Dps suck in it, and i believ swordmasters are also weekend

Lord Anathir
02-10-2005, 19:33
going to my first tourney this month with a dragon themed list Not the easiest list to play, but lots of fun. The only thing im afraid of is that ive only got 3 DD and 2 scrolls. And yes, it would be much easier to take an all cavalry army. The way i figured is that i can handle 2 lvl 2s, but anything over that and id have to go mage hunting with my flyers. The tourney is on the 22nd @ the oakvill battle bunker in ontario canada. (anyone else going?)

Eldacar
03-10-2005, 08:54
And i disadree that the ravening hords is better. Dps suck in it, and i believ swordmasters are also weekend
DP's are pathetic anyway. For what you pay, they really aren't worth it. Silver Helms do a much better job than them, in RH and the 6th edition list.

As to Swordmasters being weakened in RH, they weren't. They were stronger, striking first on the charge (regardless) and in initiative order in the following rounds (like they do now). They also had I6, and the WS5 was a very small price to pay.

The current High Elf list is actually far, far weaker than the Ravening Hordes list. Go here (http://www.redelf.h1.ru/w6/rh/rh_he.html) to get a look at the Ravening Hordes list. It is superior to the 6th edition AB in all ways except magic items, honours, and magic. All you need to do is transfer the three things I stated over to it, and everything works out fine.


The only thing im afraid of is that ive only got 3 DD and 2 scrolls. And yes, it would be much easier to take an all cavalry army. The way i figured is that i can handle 2 lvl 2s, but anything over that and id have to go mage hunting with my flyers.
How many flyers do you have? That would affect your ability to go mage-hunting.

shadowprince
04-10-2005, 05:11
Oh i thought the swordmasters wherre weekend as this was my only gripe with the list, but Weoponskill five is fine as it stads now, turns them into only marginally less powerful against weopon skil five oppenents but the Initiative is fine. But they really did jsut make Dp's pointless. But other wise fine combine magic items honors and high magic and i use it.

Eldacar
04-10-2005, 06:01
But they really did jsut make Dp's pointless.
They're pointless in the 6th edition army list as well. Silverhelms do their job much better than they do.

Lord_Sanguinius
04-10-2005, 23:56
i'm not trying to get off topic but they're cheaper moneywise too. I really like the models for the dragon princes though. if only they were plastic..........

shadowprince
06-10-2005, 04:28
ya, agreed but 18 chrge calvary can be nice silverhelms only have 16.

Xyon
19-10-2005, 13:22
Right, well here's a few of my opinions and thoughts about some of the HE units.
The archmage is kinda overpriced, if you as me. I still like the archmage, and take one, but is overpriced. I think all mages (bar the slann) are kinda over-priced for what they can acomplish.

All the infantry, but especially the archers, seaguard, and phoenix guard are over-priced. WE archers get what? S4 at short range, and no move-shoot penalty for the same points as HE archers? Seaguard should only be 13 pts with shield, dont so much mind the bow instead of longbow, but longbow would be better.

Here's a simple fix for phoenix guard, if they keep fear. Why not make every model count as two for purposes of causing fear? They'd be worth their points as a fear-causing unit then. But would still be voulnerable. Maybe if they also had 2A they'd be worth their points.

The new lack of scythes on the chariots was a surprise to me when it happened, why wouldent elves who are dieing out and dwindling numbers stick some metal to their wheels to help keep from being turned into pulp by the counter attack?

The lack of heavy armor on spearelves/seaguard is a bit dissapointing too. IMO getting rid fo heavy armor slowing down infantry was a bad idea, barding still slows down cavalry, so why doesnt heavier armor slow down people?


Hows this for an idea? In 40k they've been doing new lists with wargear having different point values for whether its given to a character or a units upgraded leader. So why not the same thing for fantasy? Or a seperate list of magic items for our unit leaders. like giving a bladelord a magical greatsword, so he gets 3A and still strikes at I5 with S5, or that gives him killing blow. Instead of Magical Items, they could be called skills. They could have a skill and a certain # of points allowance of magical items. Anyhoo I think they need to develope the idea of 0-1 unit leaders being more experienced or carrieing magical items further.

Also allowing seagaurd the ability to take magical banners, and giving them heavy armor.

oh well, sort of a rant that iv been thinking about for the past couple weeks.

I still like the elves, their background, models, and dont mind losing a bunch. I just need better tactics.




SO what do yo think of this combo?

Archmage with +1 casting staff, ring of fury, seer, lvl 4
with: Curse of arrow attraction, fury of khaine, flames of phoenix, vauls unmaking

Mage with, seer, jewel of the dusk, lvl 2
with: curse of arow, flames of phoenix

banner of sorcery on a unit to carry it.

ok, so you start off with the ring, then maybe a curse of fury of khaine, then let loose with two flames of phoenix, you're bound to get one through, or even use up some/all of your opponents dispell scrolls leaving them open the next turn without the scrolls. And if you do get the two flames off, then great! you potentially either shut down their next magic phase trying to stop them from burning their units, or you hit them at S4 and start all over again, great if there are mages in the unit you cast at, as they get hit with the S3 and S4 aswell, potentially killing them as they are usually T3 and W2

DJ Master
03-01-2006, 05:40
Bolt throwers, 2 high elf archer reggies, a loithern seagaurd and a mage... most valuable spell... curse of arrow attraction... I created my high elf army around this and as long as you can shoot em to bits early.. Its all good

shadowprince
03-01-2006, 14:49
not bad its what I run somewhat trying silver wand ring of fury 2 dispels scrolls on my archmage havent decided what I wanted with the last 20 leaning towards a dispel scroll.

But I agree I am fine with spearmen haveing light armor becuase the idea is they can move faster, but since that advantage is no longer their, give em heavy armor.

OH and don't bother with the seaguard get more archers if you want the shooting so bad, or more preferable a spearman unit then use the other points on some shadow warriors.

hairyman
03-01-2006, 14:57
On the subject of dispel scrolls...

...although my HE force is only at a formative stage, fighting 1,000 battles vs skaven, lizards and tomb kings, I've not really found a use for dispel scrolls. I have found that if I make room for the Annulian Crystal I can be pretty much certain of dispelling anything not cast with IF, and have more of a disruptive effect on my opponents magical plans (well, for the lizards and skaven, anyway).

As I'm pretty new to HE's (and WHFB in general) I'm wondering if this is a valid assumption in 1,000-1,500pt battles, or if I just haven't come up against a decent magical list yet? For the record, I usually run one Lvl 2 with seer and the jewel that gives +1 PD, and one Lvl 1 with the crystal.

Kroxhandler
04-01-2006, 15:18
- Eagles can be used to redirect enemy units, forcing them to show their flanks to your countercharge units just like Fast Cav: Place a great eagle at an angle in the charge arc of your enemy. Make sure he'll charge your frontal zone still, or he'll pile in in a way we don't like. Then, he'll have to align with the eagle exposing its flank: about the same as we did with Fast Cavalry earlier.


Hmm....doesn't the eagle count as a skirmisher unit due to it being a flier? I'm pretty sure skirmishers has to align to charging R&F and not the other way around. Does this in any way disturb the general plan?
Sources: BRB p.116 and p.106

feintstar
05-01-2006, 00:16
If the eagle was a skirmisher unit, then you would be correct. But the Eagle is not a skirmisher, nor is it flying cavalry (which follow similar rules IIRC) but it is a flying Monster (thanks to its wounds profile), which means they have to align to you.

This tactic is used by HE players thoughout the world and is one of the few ways in which High Elf armies retain any degree of respectability. :)

Correct me If I am incorrect...

shadowprince
05-01-2006, 00:22
ya we don't reply respectabilit with about half the untits. :) But am going to trry not to rant about that. Eagles re great but I have found that well used scouts can take out warmachins better depending on scenery.

Lord Anathir
05-01-2006, 01:17
yeah...magic defense is good. nowadays i get anxious with 7DD and 1scroll. But 4 eagles mage hunting usually solves the problem.

feinstar, you are 100% correct. it is the MOST important rule to know.

warmachines arent what eagles are best suited for...even though they can be used to do that as well. scouts are the best for warmachines, because on the turn before theycharge they can block line of sight preventing a cannon shot or stone thrower shot somewhere else.

@xyon
check out:
http://mars.walagata.com/w/lordanathir/3192397.pdf
maybe theres something for you there.

shadowprince
05-01-2006, 05:03
problem with that Anathir, is while it is a good strategy it deprives you of bolt throwers, which are a major high elf dvantage for knocking out light calv, hevy calv and anything else. Personaly I am a fan of the scouts for the mage hunting they shoot then chage next turn, but 2 eagles as back up is the cru de gra

Eldacar
05-01-2006, 09:46
which are a major high elf dvantage for knocking out light calv, hevy calv and anything else.
I'd just use magic to blast them off the table. There's no need for RBT's, I don't think. And beyond that, you can always use movement-related spells to get yourself in a position to charge them.

Major Defense
05-01-2006, 10:40
Lots of scattered whining about the HE list in this thread. Sure, mages and bows are expensive and 'Intrigue at Court' drives me nuts. Those are drawbacks/weaknesses that balance the list. HE still win a lot more often than the old Dwarves.

That said, my two favorite 2K+ lists are...

Book of Hoeth archmage shooting for Comet of Cassandora, level 1 scroll caddy, World Dragon BSB and wild card fourth character. BSB with a unit of 15 Shadow Warriors screening almost everything in the army and the Banner of Sorcery hiding out somewhere in the back. This army does not engage but uses cheap units to divert fast enemies while making the magic game a one-sided battle.

Double dragons (Null Stone with longbow and Asarnil) and lots of shooting. Doesn't get too eaten up by magic with the Null Stone and makes a waste out of any magic defenses the enemy takes. The HE version of a Khorne army!

shadowprince
05-01-2006, 22:41
I'd just use magic to blast them off the table. There's no need for RBT's, I don't think. And beyond that, you can always use movement-related spells to get yourself in a position to charge them.

ok will try not to argue against you too much so the thread doesn't turn into a debate between us:D

RBT are very good siege weopons, and as I am sure you will want to save the magic to unleash upon his nice big units, they help a lot in knocking off the units support. Also big bolt down a knight flank.

Eldacar
05-01-2006, 23:11
RBT are very good siege weopons, and as I am sure you will want to save the magic to unleash upon his nice big units, they help a lot in knocking off the units support. Also big bolt down a knight flank.
"Saving" it depends on how much I have.;)

As to sending bolts down a flank, that's what the Bow of the Seafarer is for.


That said, my two favorite 2K+ lists are...

Book of Hoeth archmage shooting for Comet of Cassandora, level 1 scroll caddy, World Dragon BSB and wild card fourth character. BSB with a unit of 15 Shadow Warriors screening almost everything in the army and the Banner of Sorcery hiding out somewhere in the back. This army does not engage but uses cheap units to divert fast enemies while making the magic game a one-sided battle.

Double dragons (Null Stone with longbow and Asarnil) and lots of shooting. Doesn't get too eaten up by magic with the Null Stone and makes a waste out of any magic defenses the enemy takes. The HE version of a Khorne army!
So your two favourite lists are the Dragon Attack Squad, regarded as a powergaming option, and another list that revolves around tactics based on MSU. Beyond that, you are using the Book of Hoeth when you don't have enough PD to make it worthwhile. To be honest, I think that there are plenty of better ways to equip that Archmage of yours. And the BSB... well, suffice be it to say that I don't believe in giving them expensive banners, because it will just make them a fire magnet.

Moreover, two units of six Shadow Warriors will screen your army just as easily as one unit of fifteen, and you're paying less for them, too.

shadowprince
06-01-2006, 02:20
[QUOTE=Eldacar
As to sending bolts down a flank, that's what the Bow of the Seafarer is for.
QUOTE]

But if you are planning on a a realble magic phase to do damage you ould normally go archmage thuse you wouldn't have the bow. also their might be other things you want that prince to do

Eldacar
06-01-2006, 07:44
Three mages will do more than enough magical damage without taking it to the level of a Seer Council, if they have the Banner of Sorcery somewhere in the army (an Archmage is still fun on occasion, though).

That leaves space for a Prince, and you can arm him with the Bow of the Seafarer and Shadow Armour (or the Armour of Protection and mount him on a Great Eagle) and send him off to hunt for flanks to shoot at.

Major Defense
06-01-2006, 13:56
Beyond that, you are using the Book of Hoeth when you don't have enough PD to make it worthwhile.Thanks very much for your opinion but the fact of the matter is that 10-12 dice is enough to nail 2 or 3 UF spells per turn. Magic heavy armies are lucky to nail that many after MR, dispels and scrolls. I have had a lot of success with this type of list.


I don't believe in giving them expensive banners, because it will just make them a fire magnet.Sure, shoot at my skirmishing 15 points/model unit instead of the RBTs and chariots. By the time you wear it down he will have left to seek cover in another unit. In armies that already have high leadership a BSB is less important for his re-rolls and more useful for his banner. The two most expensive (and thus BSB only) banners in the HE army are undeniably useful. I offer my condolences for your lack of belief.


Moreover, two units of six Shadow Warriors will screen your army just as easily as one unit of fifteen, and you're paying less for them, too.Paying less...and taking another special choice...and taking a panic test on two wounds instead of four. I understand your point.

shadowprince
07-01-2006, 05:53
Guess you are right here Eldacar over looked that idea due to miniminizing on characters. But it is rather a large gamble to put the prince out their all on his lonesome, or with a small group of shadowed kin.(shadow warriors) Especially with all the auto hit weopons and spells. Also it is nice ot use your prince for other things, but that combanation is highly efficient I will admt.

Kroxhandler
07-01-2006, 11:43
As a LM-player I'd just love to see a elven prince with low toughness, low armoured retinue. Salamanders are ideal for handling those and cost about a fraction of the prince.
Now how come you ask? Well, one artillery dice each of auto-hitting S3 hits with a -1 save mod. At a maximum you're looking at a unit of three sallies, a skirmisher unit I might add. On the height of bad days you just might be facing 30 save-rolls from an enemy that started their turn 21" away from you. Sallies are a wonderful tool to the lizards but they still have their weaknesses like anybody else.
Just thought you should know, in case you were thinking about where to put your expensive prince against a LM-army.

Major Defense
08-01-2006, 03:20
As a LM-player I'd just love to see a elven prince with low toughness, low armoured retinue. Salamanders are ideal for handling those and cost about a fraction of the prince.You're forgetting that dragon armor makes that prince immune to salamander shooting. It'd be more effective to charge him.

Flypaper
08-01-2006, 05:03
[edit: Post removed when I realised its utter stupidity. For the record - and as I remembered too late - Rule of Burning Iron is also a flaming attack. :(]

Eldacar
08-01-2006, 07:56
Thanks very much for your opinion but the fact of the matter is that 10-12 dice is enough to nail 2 or 3 UF spells per turn. Magic heavy armies are lucky to nail that many after MR, dispels and scrolls. I have had a lot of success with this type of list.
It all depends on the player, I guess. I wouldn't take the Book of Hoeth normally. Statistically, though, using four dice is generally the best option when going for Irresistible Force, so when the Archmage has four spells, I'm going to want to get them all off with the best chance of IR that I can.


Sure, shoot at my skirmishing 15 points/model unit instead of the RBTs and chariots. By the time you wear it down he will have left to seek cover in another unit. In armies that already have high leadership a BSB is less important for his re-rolls and more useful for his banner. The two most expensive (and thus BSB only) banners in the HE army are undeniably useful. I offer my condolences for your lack of belief.
I don't necessarily need to shoot at them. I just need to hit them with whatever I have available that I can spare. An example being a lot of magic, or sacrificing some Eagles. Or missile fire, assuming I have taken it. Or taking them on in combat, because they are on foot and have a 5+ AS and T3, carrying a banner worth more than 50 points (80 in the case of the Battle Banner). Yeah, of course that won't be a fire magnet. Let me see... 95 points for the BSB, 80 points for the Battle Banner, perhaps the Pure of Heart honour (it depends on who you choose to put this one on), and on top of this, he might become the general with the I@C rule. There's another bundle of Victory points right there. In a T3, 2W, 5+ AS model... You can do it, and it might work for you, but I personally cannot justify tying up so many points in one model. Most people I know would immediately jump at the chance to take him out. Instead, I give them something like the AotG and the SoM (if I take them at all). He will still be a BSB, and he can support my MBU's. And he has good(ish) protection and some fairly decent offensive capability.

As to the RBT's and chariots, the Howler Wind combined with other movement-altering spells for the Chariots will deal with them (and so might terrain in general). Of course, there's always the possibility that your magic defence might block them, but then again, if I had the Book of Hoeth, and I was throwing out spells, they could well be IR spells.

To continue from that:


Paying less...and taking another special choice...and taking a panic test on two wounds instead of four. I understand your point.
And of course, once you're finished screening (read: you're in combat), what will those fifteen-odd Shadow Warriors do? Move around the board in a pack? I'd take two units of six because I can easily split them up and have them move around, making my battle plan more flexible and open to modification depending on what my opponent is doing.


Guess you are right here Eldacar over looked that idea due to miniminizing on characters.
I didn't overlook anything.

In the end, it might well come down to a different way of playing, at which point, I think agreeing to disagree would probably be easiest. Unless you'd like to continue, of course.

Kroxhandler
08-01-2006, 12:20
You're forgetting that dragon armor makes that prince immune to salamander shooting. It'd be more effective to charge him.

Hmm...darn. Well maybe the prince is immune but the rest of his unit isn't. Unless he has pure of heart, a strong possibility though, it's most likely that the unit will be taking a panic test when properly grilled. A small consolation.
Charging....with sallies that just might be an option. It's the skink handlers that makes this an unattractive option as they die about as easy as goblins. In a unit of salamanders that only has a couple(3-4) left due to being shot up I just might. The salamanders themselves are pretty dangerous in CC, S5 A2...You could always do a kamikaze run with them, getting two sallies in contact with your prince isn't difficult, 4 S5 attacks should hurt a bit. Sure, they'll be hitting on 5+ and the prince probably has decent saves but considering that 2 sallies cost just about as much as a bare prince(no equipment or anything!) this actually sounds like a good idea. At the moment at least...
Has anyone been up against prince-hunting salamanders? Anyone seen this tactic?

Tobias
08-01-2006, 12:43
Mhm HE, is my fav army too play and they are good to play with, they have one bad unit (Phoenix Guard)

LSG are really underrated, good unit, very good, I have used them well many times :)

ANd the characher thingy
it's 2 lvl 2 mages and 2 commanders or 1 archmage 1 lvl 2 mage and a commander for me. That'll be around 600points :)
Chariots are holy :)
So are spearmen

^^

Major Defense
08-01-2006, 13:34
It all depends on the player, I guess. I wouldn't take the Book of Hoeth normally. Statistically, though, using four dice is generally the best option when going for Irresistible Force, so when the Archmage has four spells, I'm going to want to get them all off with the best chance of IR that I can.Yes, with the Book of Hoeth four dice gives you just over a 50% chance to cast IF but brings with it a shocking 10% chance for miscast. Five dice approaches 70% or more but miscast increase to about 15%. Whenever I get 12 dice I burn 2-3 on Second Sign, 3-4 on Forked/Uranon's/Cronos and 4 on Comet. Too bad the book isn't 90 points so I can cinch the comet with the Silver Wand.


Of course, there's always the possibility that your magic defence might block them, but then again, if I had the Book of Hoeth, and I was throwing out spells, they could well be IR spells.The Banner of the World Dragon is not MR. It makes a unit immune to the effects of any spell, IF or not. That's why this tactic is so effective. You can cast all day and maybe even miscast some but any spell using LoS will stop at that unit. Sure, HE and Lizzies can access spells that go behind the skirmisher line but in those cases my wildcard hero would be back there carrying the amulets (Fire and Purifying Flame) for MR1 and -3 cast. Aso for killing my BSB, he will most certainly be out of the unit before a threatened charge can get anywhere near him. In a large enough army I might take 2 units of 15 Shadow Warriors and fall back to a second spell-proof line. While you're thinking of how to deal with that, remember that I've been casting IF comets for three or four rounds. I'll have a lot more to show for it than merely killing off 225-450 points of Shadow Warriors.


And of course, once you're finished screening (read: you're in combat), what will those fifteen-odd Shadow Warriors do? Move around the board in a pack?Um...exactly. Yes. That many can S&S some units out of charging and be a significant threat of numbers in melee. Taking two small units would mean completely abandoning the plan I outlined and you haven't really talked me out of the effectiveness of it.


In the end, it might well come down to a different way of playing, at which point, I think agreeing to disagree would probably be easiest. Unless you'd like to continue, of course.Making points is one thing but I believe that we've exhausted this debate to the point where further discussion only goes into hypothetical situations for which either of us will surely have a counterpoint. I will end in saying that this tactic is indeed a one-trick pony but I hold that it is so effective as to be worth the manageable risk of facing situations that would threaten it.


Hmm...darn. Well maybe the prince is immune but the rest of his unit isn't. Unless he has pure of heart, a strong possibility though, it's most likely that the unit will be taking a panic test when properly grilled. A small consolation.Remember that Dragon Princes also wear dragon armor and a dragon mount is T6. I would suppose that somebody might buy a prince on foot but I can't see many situations where that would be smart.


Chariots are holy :)Aren't they though!? I once faced a 3K Skaven SAD army with 8 chariots and 30 archers. I lost but it secured the tactic of charging the rat blocks with narrow chariots. Once they are engaged I can then shoot at the Ratling Guns as they become the closest unengaged unit. Scared the hell out of him! :p

Kroxhandler
08-01-2006, 18:06
Remember that Dragon Princes also wear dragon armor and a dragon mount is T6. I would suppose that somebody might buy a prince on foot but I can't see many situations where that would be smart.

Whoa, now charging a prince on a dragon with salamanders is a whole other matter, shooting at it is also out of the question...almost. You could get lucky and get 10+ hits distributed between the prince and the dragon( he can't save every save), against the dragon it would most likely just bounce.:(

I've had incredible luck against princes on dragons by using skinks. Sure they run as soon as the dragon looks funny at them, not to mention what happens if the breathing attack gets used. Skink kebab anyone? But before that they can really pepper the dragon, and rider, with poison. Using a pretty standard unit of 13 skinks armed with blowpipes I once put 2 wounds on the prince and 1 on the dragon in just one round. Finished him off with a lightning bolt the next round.:evilgrin: Usually skinks manages to do 1-2 wounds due to the massive amount of shots( blowpipes, 2xshots @ -1 mod).

If you're looking for a spot to land with your dragon be very sure that it's clear from skinks. Since they're skirmshers, usually spread out, you won't kill nearly enough with the breath-attack to render them harmless. Their cheap cost makes them pretty expendable as well, most LM player would likely commit at least 2 units of 10-13 just for the chance of poisoning the dragon. If you get into CC with skinks you most likely will break them like twigs but you probably have better things to do with your expensive dragon, no?

C'tan
08-01-2006, 20:41
My Magic Character list:
Archmage: Level 4, Seer, Silver Wand, Starwood Staff, Staff Of Solidity. Barded Horse.
Mage: Level 2, Ring Of Fury , Jewel Of The Dusk, Barded Horse.
Mage: Level 2, Channeller, Ring Of Corin, Pure Of Heart, Barded Horse.
Mage: Level 2, Sigil Of Asuryan, Talisman Of Protection, Barded Horse.
Banner Of Sorcery
Power Dice: Up to 16, at least 14.
Dispel Dice: 7 + 1 Dispel Scroll.

Major Defense
08-01-2006, 21:50
Archmage: Level 4, Seer, Silver Wand, Starwood Staff, Staff Of Solidity. Barded Horse.

:eyebrows: When will they learn? When you're already going to get 4/6 spells and there is almost no chance to not get the spell you want (swapping any one for the default spell) with the Silver Wand giving you 5/6, it is always, in all cases, a foolish thing to give an archmage the Seer honor. Always. Foolish.

Lord Anathir
08-01-2006, 23:20
i agree! that and you cant take more then one arcane item on a mage. so its either silver wand, starwood staff, OR* staff of solidity. so...its illegal.

shadowprince
09-01-2006, 01:21
I didn't overlook anything..
I ment I over looked it not you. In my opnion princes very uselss for high elfs, unless you re useing certian item combos, Sea fere bow shadow armor, Or a dragon etc. As a commander can do most of what a Prince does.

Eldacar
09-01-2006, 03:09
That's why this tactic is so effective. You can cast all day and maybe even miscast some but any spell using LoS will stop at that unit
Luckily for me, Life, Heavens, and FotP from High Magic aren't LOS spells, and those three Lores are what I use the most, which allows me to bypass your spell-immunity line.


I would suppose that somebody might buy a prince on foot but I can't see many situations where that would be smart.

Perhaps so that they can get the Swordmaster Prince to auto-kill Chariots, but that's about it, I think. Or they might play an Infantry list.


Archmage: Level 4, Seer, Silver Wand, Starwood Staff, Staff Of Solidity. Barded Horse
Besides the fact that the Archmage is illegal, I'd be changing that equipment to Annulian Crystal, the Amulet of Purifying Flame, and either the Sacred Incense or perhaps Guardian Phoenix, given what your other mages have been outfitted with. Normally, if I take an Archmage I'll go with the Crystal and three Dispel Scrolls, but that's only if I'm going magic-light, where I just maximise my defence (which isn't often).

And yes, giving him both Seer and the Silver Wand is outright foolish. Take the Silver Wand, but never Seer unless you're using a Lore that only has one spell that you would want. And in that case, you'd be better off picking an altogether different Lore of Magic anyway.

Cyel
10-01-2006, 09:36
It all depends on the player, I guess. I wouldn't take the Book of Hoeth normally. Statistically, though, using four dice is generally the best option when going for Irresistible Force, so when the Archmage has four spells, I'm going to want to get them all off with the best chance of IR that I can.

I actually like the combo of Archmage+Book and a Lv2 with 2 Scrolls + Banner of Sorcery. I often used it and have seen it used to good effect. It's 9-11 dice, so 2-3 spells with very respectable chance of IF. With good spells rolled it can easily be a game winner.

Eldacar
10-01-2006, 10:53
I actually like the combo of Archmage+Book and a Lv2 with 2 Scrolls + Banner of Sorcery. I often used it and have seen it used to good effect. It's 9-11 dice, so 2-3 spells with very respectable chance of IF. With good spells rolled it can easily be a game winner.
Two things:

1) "With good spells rolled..." means that you need to get the right dice rolls coming up. Yes, while taking a good Lore of Magic helps, it isn't everything. Of course, one can also argue that any spell can be effective in the right situation.

2) I specifically said that if my Archmage has four spells (which he generally does, excluding the small chance of him facing something like the Sigil of Asuryan), I'm going to want the best chance of an IR that I can get. And that means four dice.

Of course, this is only if I am going to be using a magic-heavy list (though I'd rarely play without about five Dispel Dice and two or three scrolls, thanks to how my style has developed).

shadowprince
11-01-2006, 01:18
I used t run the lv4 book lv 2 scolls banner combo but droped it. I found it can really hurt and it does, but sometimes you don't get what you want out of it. Also it exculdes the two rings which are just wonderful. Moveing to the Archmage with 2 scroll silver wand ring of fury just not sure waht else to give him and the level 2 hacng jewel of duk and ring of corin or seer.

Eldacar
11-01-2006, 01:58
Moveing to the Archmage with 2 scroll silver wand ring of fury just not sure waht else to give him
I'd give him another Dispel Scroll myself, but that's just me.

shadowprince
12-01-2006, 02:22
ya was what I was thinking will go with that. Give me a bit more time against SAD which we got four of those little rats here

EvC
01-02-2006, 18:57
So, first proper High Elf game coming up... what's a good way to use a small bunch of Shadow Warriors?

shadowprince
01-02-2006, 23:18
just posted somethign on it, good for charging certian chariots (Eldacar it does work I tested it), siege weopon killing pulling out fanatics, killing mages with either shooting or in combat. screening and marchblocking.

Major Defense
02-02-2006, 02:17
what's a good way to use a small bunch of Shadow Warriors?This is all opinion but I have an excellent track record with using Shadow Warriors so I'll go ahead and sound like a pretentious dick because that's not too out of place on a forum these days.

Shadow Warriors *must* be bought in units of 5, 9, 13 (to require an extra wound before a panic test) or 15 (to max out the unit strength and shooting) and a unit champion is *never* a good idea...never. No, really. Never.

When using a unit of 5 or 9, you're best off to try to scout with them and assist Great Eagles in march blocking and dividing an enemy's movement in whatever tactically advantageous way you can find. Smaller units are almost disposable if you can eek a real tactical advantage out of their loss.

Units of 13 or 15 might not scout in order to screen your army or guard against ambush/miners/tunneling/etc. Larger units have a great shooting punch and enjoy a threatening unit strength and mobility among ranked units when close to the enemy.

Try not to charge anything with Shadow Warriors unless you see a need for extra unit strength in a combat. Their shooting attacks are exactly as effective as their melee without commiting to a ranked position and risking a counter-charge. They can almost always move to 'Stand and Shoot' distance before firing their bows and this is especially threatening with larger units of them.

shadowprince
02-02-2006, 02:22
I wouldn't go with everone being a pretentious dick because that's not too out of place on a forum these days. But shadow warriors can charge if going at something hat isn't ranked, for example things like swarms,

Lord Anathir
02-02-2006, 02:42
I like shadow warriors...they help alot...good for warmachines and stuff.

screen and marchblocking are the other ways to use them.

Major Defense
02-02-2006, 04:21
shadow warriors can charge if going at something hat isn't ranked, for example things like swarms,I wouldn't argue with you that they can charge but it's not exactly wise - especially against an unbreakable unit like swarms that could keep them there for a while until counter-charges arrive. Lets just say that 15 hypothetical Shadow Warriors find themselves a few inches away from 3 bases of swarms in the HE player's turn...



Scenario A - they charge
The SWs rank up 8-wide and get only that many attacks, 5-6 hits, 3-4 wounds. 7-8 hits back from the swarms yield 2-3 wounds (6+ saves are a joke). In the opponent's turn the SWs would get another 3-4 wounds and take out one of the three swarms. So only 1-2 wounds back.

SW wounds caused = 6-8
swarm wounds caused = 3-5



Scenario B - they move and shoot
The SWs step back over 6" away and fire 15 shots, 5 hits, 3-4 wounds. In the opponent's turn the swarms charge and take S&S, another 3-4 wounds. Then in melee the swarms have only two bases, 1-2 wounds. 6-7 SW attacks back get 4-5 hits, 2-3 wounds.

SW wounds caused = 8-11
swarm wounds caused = 1-2



Played out, Scenario B would get the Shadow Warriors out of melee quicker and offer a little less of an opportunity for the counter-charge. I would always prefer two rounds of shooting with every model to one round of melee with half or even fewer of them. You also get the chance to thwart the enemy's charge with 25% wounds from S&S.

shadowprince
02-02-2006, 04:31
ok swarms was a bad examle I ment something that doesn't have a begining static combat resolution and can be flanked happy? like chariots, other scouts, chariots is the best example as if they are hit in the rear SW will start the battle at +3 CS and have a good chance of only looseing 1-2 scouts.

EvC
02-02-2006, 13:19
Thanks for the responses guys! I'm a bit rusty so I didn't even consider using mere skirmishers as march-blockers...

English 2000
26-08-2006, 05:56
Yepp, Armour of the Gods = Power Armour...

Am I blind or something? I can't find the Armour of the Gods in my book

god octo
26-08-2006, 14:19
its not in the book, its in a pdf somewhere and comes from the Albion campaign. ill try and find the linky.

ha ha, i think i have found it:

http://us.games-workshop.com/games/gaming/treasures.pdf

English 2000
26-08-2006, 16:47
Thank you so much, I saw the chronicles title and pulled out my copy of Chronicles 2003. Muwahahahahaha. Look out all enemies of the high elves!

Von Wibble
28-08-2006, 20:04
For characters - why have a pricey mage when you can use commander mages?

My usual characters in a 2500pts game (no enemy army in mind)

Prince - Usually mounted with 1+ save with reroll (Helm of Fortune), Ring of Fury, Radiant Gem of Hoeth.

Commander - has Loremaster, great weapon.

Commander - Reaver Bow/ Armour of Stars/ Armour of Gods

Mage - Channeller, L2, Dispel Scroll, Jewel of Dusk.

That gives me 3 characters who can fight, and 3 characters who can cast spells. Charging is important for the Loremaster as he has no armour though.

Seperate point- why do people rate the RBT so highly?

If you do the maths, multiple shots give on average a 50% improvement to shooting over a single bolt (more against T3 <5+ save, less against T4 4+ who i always seem to face).
BS4 is 33% better than BS3.
Combined, this makes a RBT twice as good as a goblin or dwarf bolt thrower

But it costs nearly triple the goblin one, has less crew than either example, less T and LD that the Dwarf one, (OK more LD than the goblin one), no runes, and uses rare slots instead of special!

With the rules as they are it is surely worth 70-80 pts not 100. I prefer to invest in Eagles and magic instead.

Final question - any ideas on how to beat Dwarfs? I can win but only by heavily tailoring my army. Dwarf war machines (particularly the flame cannon and stone thrower with Rune of Accuracy) tend to take out half a unit per turn each. Throw in another half unit from a third war machine and thunderers/crossbows and whats left in the army isn't hard hitting enough to beat equal WS troops with T4 and a 3+ save (who, incidentally, cost less than you do).

Without going heavily for shooting and war machine annihilation tactics, which I wouldn't do against anyone else, I can't see a solution. Please help!

god octo
28-08-2006, 21:26
the banner of ellyrion may help, allowing you to move through cover avoiding fire.

English 2000
29-08-2006, 01:16
Final question - any ideas on how to beat Dwarfs? I can win but only by heavily tailoring my army.

That's the complaint I've heard from most HE players, myself included. It's harder to HE to put together a list that can take on all comers that any other list. Unless you go all cav high elves....but you can just read my sig to see how likely it is to see me field all cav.

eldrak
29-08-2006, 09:56
For 60p the dwarfs get a BS 4 bolt thrower which they can upgrade with runes and that has twice the crew (+stubborn) of the HE or DE ones.

Back in the days the HE bolt thrower did cost 50p with almost the same rules (s5 single shot, D4W, no AP) while the DE one costed 100 :)

Seems all ranged HE weaponry is a bit overcosted, anyone at all paying those 5/6p for bows for their reavers?

Rae'arc
29-08-2006, 15:51
Actually the Druchii one cost 50 as well... and yes those were the days... but anyway.

While it is more difficult for my lesser brethren since Reavers are special and Dark Riders are core I think the basic tactic is the same. Overwhelm them with the presence of 2 units of 5-7 Reavers and a Great Eagle threatening them with a second turn charge. Cannons won't be much use against the reavers and a stone thrower has a much narrower target with the long line. Organ guns can only annhilate one unit and the bolt-thrower is going to kill what? One reaver? Or maybe the great eagle. There will be casualties but hey... this is war right? It's worth the sacrifice and you will AT VERY LEAST buy yourself a turn that the guns won't be pointed at your main units. I mean after all, what are stunties without their artillery? Not much, so it's worth using a few points to take them out right.

And just in general for those who cry about their 'ethics' on 'tailoring an army for certain opponents is bad", reavers and great eagles are good against practically any army. March block, flank charges, baiting, war machine hunting...

Oh and for English 2000... Druchii have the harder list for taking all comers, not high elves... and wood elves are beneath us both.

Von Wibble
29-08-2006, 16:52
@Rearc

You are pretty much describing my tactics on 1 of my failed attempts. The problem is that 1) a crossbowman unit of 16 will kill on average 5 Reavers in a volley (clever deployment means it is unlikely that i will be in charge range and out of LOS)

The unit of Thunderers does the same to the other reavers, leaving the war machines (usually 2 stone throwers, 1 flame cannon and 1 bolt thrower) to keep firing at my thin blue and white line, which then, by the time it gets to him, is about 1 rank deep...

Eagles charging war machines - they are 4s 4s with 2A - that's 0.5kills. If it gets 0 kills then the crew will outnumber it and possibly have another bonus somewhere - an eagle has to be lucky to stop it firing for even 1 round.

Also note Dwarf warriors with shields - T4 and 3+ save for a whopping 205pts. I won't kill many and will be outnumbered. At that price you can get a lot of them.

The time I won against Dwarfs I fielded both magic bows, 3 units of archers, and was fortunate enough to get 2 hills in my deployment zone (both zones had 2 hills in). I had some shadow warriors take out the flame cannon in turn 1 (which i incidentally got) and neutered his crossbows, thus forcing the dwarfs to come to me. My Helms, spears and swordmasters then combined to outflank the 3-4 combat units who had no choice but to come to me.



With no magic, and an overreliance on shooting this is not an army I would use against anyone else.

One tip I can give in general is that the Standard of Balance is amazingly good, especially against Undead, Dwarfs, Chaos, Wood Elves and Dark Elves. It makes your unit ignore fear, and the enemy lose hatred/frenzy/stubborn (the last one especially important). Just don't give it to White Lions!

Finally- As a Wood Elf playermyself, I consider the Wood Elves to be one of the best lists, if not the best, against all comers. I just pick a bit of everything (except warhawks) and seem to do OK. It is certainly better than HE.

Rae'arc
30-08-2006, 14:39
Hey, don't get me wrong, there is proverbially more than one way to skin a cat and I used a similar heavy shooting army to the same effect although I didn't have those awesome bows that you have access to, but when I attempt the fast cav charge it usually works. I'm not telling anyone how to play here although I do tend to come off a bit arrogant, probably just the decade of playing Druchii speaking.

And in regards to Wood Elves... Really? Honestly? You think? I have never lost to wood elves... ever

Sorry I'm going a bit off topic here.

Ok here's a small list for 1000 off the top of my head.

2 units of 10 rxb, shields
6 Cold ones Champion, standard
5 Dark Riders
2 RBTs
2 Level 2's

Kill that.

You have an advantage to tailor against it but I don't care. It'll be nice to see how the wood elves are suppose to tick.

It's an open invite though to all on the thread, but don't get me wrong, I don't believe this is the be all and end all of Druchii 1000 lists... far from it... i'm tired.

English 2000
31-08-2006, 01:05
Oh and for English 2000... Druchii have the harder list for taking all comers, not high elves... and wood elves are beneath us both.

I can't comment on the DE having never used them and never played against a half decent DE player, however that still doesn't change the fact that of the armies I do own and use (brets with infantry, HE, VC, beasts, SoC Slaanesh Daemons) and armies I used to have (O&G) by far the hardest to put a generic list together for is the HE. The only generic HE list that I've seen consitently win is the lame lame lame assed all cav HE army.

As for the woodies, dude they are awesome if used by a good player. I've played both good and crappy WE players and it's not the list that's the problem it's the players. It is a very unforgiving list which is why many people think they are weaker than they actually are.

Some armies are more forgiving than others and can still do well when commanded by medeocre players..others require a skilled player to do sell with on a consistant basis. And let's not start naming what armies are more or less forgiving or else this is just gonna lead to people getting offended.

Von Wibble
31-08-2006, 10:19
I agree with English 2000 - and especially with their signature:)

Rea'arc - if the challenge is to beat that army with wood elves then I would use an army along the lines of alter hero (with the -2 to be hit by shooting item + HODA, gw), 2blocks of 10 glade guard, Branchwraith with Cluster, 2 blocks of 10 + 9 dryads, 5 waywatchers, and some wardancers.

That list took me bout 1 minute to think of and I wouldn't say its that specialised. Apologies if i am off topic here.

WE are entirely about the player ability/style. I would use my deployment and free wood to tie up a lot of shooting, whilst alter man wipes out the bolt throwers or stares down the knights. Combined with units providing easy mutual support thruogh a 360 charge, and -1 to be hit/ longer range - i am happy they can do teh job. Also your level 2s will have to hide in (small) units, giving me an easy target worth loads! (and a high priority!)

I can't think of any army I am scared to face with WE. However, I think HE are better against some forces such as Skaven and Tomb Kings. Its just that my HE then struggle against Dwarfs, Brets, Empire and Blood Dragons

My preferred force in any army is to have a mix - I like army books that allow you to throw out a quick army like above and stay competitive, without being too uber at the same time. That is something that isn't really in the HE flavour as I feel myself that an army without a least one block of spears and archers isn't right (overpriced as they are!)

Noone seemed to give an opinion one way or the other when I mentioned this before -what is the general vibe on loermasters. I like them as I can have my cake and eat it but noone else has included them in an ideal character lineup...

Also I am curious - has anyone really used any of teh HE special characters to good effect? I consider them to be the worst in any of the army books (exception Eltharion) but might have missed something...

Storm Hunters
23-09-2006, 11:40
imeric seems a little underpowerd. But on the occations i have used tecles, and he hasnt fried his brains in the fist turn he has been superb, compleatly dominating the magic phase.

Also have any of you had good exsperiance with hte bow of the seafearer, i have never used it, and am wondering if any of you lot rate it.

Von Wibble
23-09-2006, 12:39
Teclis good??!!!

As in, the character who pays 100pts (ish) for a sword he won't use, has a cosmetic potion ability that I really don't rate, generates less dice than an Archmage + Mage (who cost less than him also) are capable of, and is outclassed in the magic phase by a mere rat (Thanquol).

Reroll effects is all very well, but 1 spell cast with rerolls compared to 2 without - not worth the points. Also a lot of the best spells don't roll effects (the Slaaneshi deck has 2 of the best spells in the game, neither of which require a dice to be rolled) - its only magic missiles really...

Imo if Teclis is in an army then he should be better at magic than the equivalent character slots, not worse. And, as the background states, only Nagash should be his equal in the magic phase.

At least he's better than Imrik - I could make a better Prince for less and have a character slot left over.

Tyrion - OK, but really suffers from Manhandir having 1) big base and 2) >1 wound . I would happily leave him at the same price to change these things.

lachlanwizard
01-10-2006, 09:15
I have been pondering with a few High Elf lists, and i have made one for 1000 points. Please keep in mind that i am new to high elves, and the game in general. I'm using characters to save $$$. My game group consists of lizardmen(mostly saurus), dwarfs(pimped out characters) and Tomb Kings(relatively little magic). Here is the preliminary list.

Commander on chariot(mostly for the flavour, i just love chariots), Sword of Sea Gold, Enchanted Shield, Heavy Armour.

Two level two mages, one using Heavens with Seer and Jewel of Dusk, the other using life with ring of fury and Silver Wand, both on barded steeds.

Two groups of 5 Silver Helms, both with champions. One group with 6, a champion and a standard bearer with War Banner.

Any help with army composition and tactics against my friends armies would be most appreciated, Thanks!

Tutore
01-10-2006, 12:11
I prefer the attack strategy based on a couple of spearelves units, a couple of silver helms units, 2 bolt throwers, 1 small swordsmasters unit and 1 lions unit (giving a hero the lion's ability), using magic only as a small support/dispel thing (1 lvl2).

English 2000
01-10-2006, 19:51
I think you'll find yourself losing a lot of games against half competent players with a list like that.

The dwarves, even with minimal missile fire will likely decemate one unit of silver helms per turn...one failed panic test and you'll find your unit with wizard running

Next turn same thing, and that's assuming he can't muster enough fire to wipe out the unit and wizard in one turn.

After 2-3 turns you'll have maybe your general, one silverhelm unit and no magical support against a mostly undamaged dwarf army.

Read my sig for more information about army comp. ;)

lachlanwizard
02-10-2006, 00:33
Any suggestions about what i could make instead? And if dwarf firepower is potent enough to rip through 2+ saves, what good are slower infantry with 4+? I was thinking about getting a block of spearelves, but i'd really prefer to not get a dud unit that uninspires just for the sake of a balanced list. One of my(theoretical) tactics is to place a comet to disrupt his gunline. Would that fare any well? Anyone play against lizards or TK? I feel they would be my most prevalent opponents. Thanks for the help!

Tutore
02-10-2006, 07:36
I think you'll find yourself losing a lot of games against half competent players with a list like that.

The dwarves, even with minimal missile fire will likely decemate one unit of silver helms per turn...one failed panic test and you'll find your unit with wizard running

Next turn same thing, and that's assuming he can't muster enough fire to wipe out the unit and wizard in one turn.

After 2-3 turns you'll have maybe your general, one silverhelm unit and no magical support against a mostly undamaged dwarf army.

Read my sig for more information about army comp. ;)

Cannot guess if it was said to me :) I change list every time I play to try everything, so...

Von Wibble
02-10-2006, 19:01
Vs Tomb Kings I find it pretty easy.

Use the Staff of Sorcery for +2 to dispel (recommended vs Ogres also). This means 1 dice incantations are pretty much dealt with. Meanwhile their magic defense is woeful. (only 2 items, one of which is a bound spell) and Fury of Khaine and/or Flames of the Phoenix hurt them.

You have access to a lot of immune to fear magic items.

Finally, your units can hold pretty much anything in the TK as long at it isn't combined. Therefore tactics against them are simply to neuter the severe threats and let the rest impale itself on your army.

Kroxhandler
02-10-2006, 22:03
Since I usually play Lizardmen myself I'd like to offer my assistance in dissecting their strengths and weaknesses, hopefully you(lachlanwizard) will find it useful.

One thing the Lizards don't handle well is cavalry, a combined charge of a unit of Silver helms and a Tiranoc chariot will shatter most Saurus blocks. Getting a unit of Silver helms with Banner of Ellyrion will allow you to take care of most scouting/advancing skinks. Do not underestimate skinks! They are fast(M6) and if they get within range (>12") to your less armoured units they will hurt. A lot. Be very careful where you place your Giant Eagles (or dragon for that matter), it only takes a couple of 6's to kill them. Skinks are dirt cheap, expect to see lots of them. Take two units of archers to cut them down to size, mop up with forementioned Ellyrion Silver Helms.

A couple of units that also might sting are Terradons and Salamanders, both are hard to hit with shooting(salamanders often take the scenic tour through water, giving them soft cover), both can offer quite a bite in combat too. Use magic missiles against the Salamanders(auto-hit weapons rock) and always place a unit of Archers in front of your Bolt throwers, those Terradons tend to dive straight at them. Repeater Bolt Throwers are usually useful to kill the Lizardmen support units before they do much damage. Target Saurus Cavalry and Kroxigors first, they are both fast and hard-hitting, you do not want them to reach combat (at least not unscathed).

Swordmasters are pretty useful against Saurus, high WS and high S means lots of kills, though I'm sure you're aware of the SM's specific uses. Against large blocks of Saurus getting a flank-charge is often necessary, you do not want to get into a prolonged fight with the lizzies. Spearmen are usually not worth it, they just don't do enough damage compared to what they have to suffer in return. But by all means, stock up on them to provide a solid core unit with ranks that can suck up the Saurus units. Then slam some knights or other heavy hitters in their flanks, very much recommended tactic.;)

When it comes to magic you've probably found your match, if the Lizzies take a Slann that is, the high skill of the toad and cheap power dice (Skink shamans) will give them an edge in magic. If you play your Elves loaded with magic the Drain Magic and Fortune is fickle spell might just save the day, High Magic is much recommended here, as many of the spells are very useful against Lizardmen. Flames of the Phoenix is really nice on the Saurus Blocks, who often 'only' have a save of 5+. It'll eat away at them and earn you valuable points, Flames of the Phoenix might be better served in getting skinks of your back. Vaul's Unmaking(or the Ring of Corin) has one primary target: JSODs...

Jaguar Saurus Of Death/Destruction. Often a Scar-vet with a Great Weapon and the Jagar Charm, providing it with 4-5 attacks at S7 and a 18(!)" range...Chariots and Knights watch out! This little killer can screw your small units of elite knights in a heartbeat, make sure to try and nullify the Jaguar Charm ASAP, you never know when it'll kick in. Another nifty Lizardmen item may be the Blood Statuette of Spite, a real nasty one. It'll probably just sit there in the hands of a random Skink Shaman, just waiting for a moment where you've spent all of your dispel dice and your general is wounded. Then it's bam! Please take some toughness tests or just plain die...no saving, no anything, just save or die. Try to leave at least one dispel dice in your pool until you're certain your Lizardmen opponent hasn't got this little gadget hidden away somewhere on his/her characters. It sucks to have your pricey Lord on his dragon just drop dead without warning. You have been warned.

lachlanwizard
03-10-2006, 04:12
Thank you all for your assistance! And i must say, lizardmen are now scaring the hell out of me. I dont terribly like any of the core choices aside from sea guard(fluffwise, but we all know thier problems). I do, however, like Swordmasters. Is it possible they could be used to remedy my lack of infantry?

And i suppose while i am posting, i have a few questions. Firstly, is it possible to have two characters on a chariot, i don't think i would ever do it, im simply curious. Secondly, kind of protection is common for a slaan? Ive heard things like being placed in a very large block of saurus. And thirdly, drain magic confuses me a little. When it makes certian rolls not count, the rolls are simply wasted? One opponent said he re-rolled. A definate answer would assist greatly.

Kroxhandler
03-10-2006, 08:46
Thank you all for your assistance! And i must say, lizardmen are now scaring the hell out of me. I dont terribly like any of the core choices aside from sea guard(fluffwise, but we all know thier problems). I do, however, like Swordmasters. Is it possible they could be used to remedy my lack of infantry?

And i suppose while i am posting, i have a few questions. Firstly, is it possible to have two characters on a chariot, i don't think i would ever do it, im simply curious. Secondly, kind of protection is common for a slaan? Ive heard things like being placed in a very large block of saurus. And thirdly, drain magic confuses me a little. When it makes certian rolls not count, the rolls are simply wasted? One opponent said he re-rolled. A definate answer would assist greatly.

I think I can continue to help you with your Lizardmen issues, I'll leave the High elf stuff to others;)
Slanns usually come in three flavours; 1)Inside a big Saurus unit. It's regular saurus, able to use the Ld9 from the Slann for CR, but certainly beatable. 2)Inside a big Temple Guard unit. These are elite Saurus infantry, halberds and stubborn, very nasty. Just plain stay away from it and magic/shoot the Slann from afar. 3) Alone with some Jungle Swarms close by. The swarms will step in between the Slann and any units you send its way, takes a lot of time to get rid of. Be sneaky and use two units(preferably one from an unsuspected angle) so that the Swarms are kept busy. Then your second unit can swoop in and begin chasing the Slann.
Don't bother trying to kill the Slann by conventional weapons, it's tough with lots of wounds and ward saves, just kill it by CR. It will still turn to a green paste when you force it to run from combat and pursue.
AFAIK drain magic wastes all rolls above a certain level, the level(4,5 or 6's) depending on your casting choice. Your opponent does not get to reroll them due to this spell, though (s)he might be able to do so by other means (often magical items or Second Sign of Amul).

Tutore
03-10-2006, 08:53
Since I usually play Lizardmen myself I'd like to offer my assistance in dissecting their strengths and weaknesses, hopefully you(lachlanwizard) will find it useful.



Thank you for advice. I also find easy to destroy some Lizard units with cavalry or elite troops, but always have problems with skirmishers.

Kroxhandler
03-10-2006, 10:16
Thank you for advice. I also find easy to destroy some Lizard units with cavalry or elite troops, but always have problems with skirmishers.

Well, I'd advice all High elf players against trying to weed out skinks and other skirmishers with archers alone. There are usually too many of them and they tend to hide in bushes, making it too difficult to pin them. Other skirmishers are ideal for fighting skinks, pretty much anything can bash 'em, they're among the weakest of all warhammer units in hth. Flying units are also nice, especially if you can get within range to avoid the stand&shoot reaction(hard to do against blowpipes but might work against Javelins). Things that autohit (Skaven ratling guns, dwarf organ guns) are just gold.
If you find skirmishers to be the main problem, try hiring a Dogs of War unit, it's often the best way to fill your particular army's weaknesses. You will lose a rare slot but it might be worth it. I'd recommend Duellists with additional handweapons, they skirmish, are very cheap(just as cheap as the Skinks!) and packs a whole lot of fighting power against T2 troops.

Tutore
03-10-2006, 11:57
Well, I'd advice all High elf players against trying to weed out skinks and other skirmishers with archers alone. troops.

Exact, high elven archers are not that good against skirmishers at all. The new no-march-if-inside-8inch-limit rule of 7th edition limits also the effectiveness of the skinks, although they remain a threat.

English 2000
04-10-2006, 17:00
As a rule things like fast cav, chariots and flyers are your best bet against skirmishers.

However, in the case of skinks this isn't the case. Simply because they have poisoned shooting attacks. Against them you need a pair of chariots, or two fast cav units. One gets shot up, the other one gets stuck in and kills the lot.

Obviously this is expensive pointwise and wasteful.

Personally with HE Fury of Khaine (2d6 s4 hits) is my weapon on choice...I always have it at least twice (one lvl 2 with seer and a prince with the ring of fury) if I get lucky my second wizard can get it too.

Remember that skinks are easier to catch now due to skimishers being march blockable so your other units will have more chance of getting to grips with the little 'uns.

Tutore
05-10-2006, 08:41
As a rule things like fast cav, chariots and flyers are your best bet against skirmishers.

However, in the case of skinks this isn't the case. Simply because they have poisoned shooting attacks. Against them you need a pair of chariots, or two fast cav units. One gets shot up, the other one gets stuck in and kills the lot.

Obviously this is expensive pointwise and wasteful.

Personally with HE Fury of Khaine (2d6 s4 hits) is my weapon on choice...I always have it at least twice (one lvl 2 with seer and a prince with the ring of fury) if I get lucky my second wizard can get it too.

Remember that skinks are easier to catch now due to skimishers being march blockable so your other units will have more chance of getting to grips with the little 'uns.

Yes I will try blocking them with a couple of eagles, hoping they do not die because of the poison, and then kill them with a unit of silver helms with the banner of ellyrion.

Dogskills
05-10-2006, 18:27
Even Dragonprinces with armoursave 2+ and movement 18, they are a better choise then chariots imo. They are also very good at getting rid of those pesky salamanders being immune to fire attacks.

Von Wibble
06-10-2006, 19:09
I find that HE archers are actually effective against lizardmen more than most other armies, ie actually worth taking!

Saurus blocks are very easy to kill for their points value, with a poor armour save and high cost (except Quetzl). It is not too difficult ot whittle them down with some well placed volleys.

The main advice I can give is to have a lone character/ war machine deployed where it can see most of your deployment zone. Why? Chameleon Skinks. They can deploy behind one of your units and easily knock off a rank per turn if you aren't careful.

I have only faced a Slann army once. It was totally shut down in the magic phase. I like Loremasters as they give a defence dice and combat punch (if mounted inside a unit their lack of armour save isn't a problem - use a challenge vs Nike Saurus), and Drain magic is very effective. I agree with the previous post regarding using High magic over college magic here.

Fortune is Fickle is also much better with the new remains in play rule - as it is dispelled at the END of the next magic phase (so they cant just use a few power dice to bypass its effect!).

The Stegadon on its own has never removed one of my conbat units - WS is too low in any round with no impact hits.

Vs Skinks - use Silver Helms. They have the armour save to ignore the poison, and a block of 6 with musician and 2+ save is not unreasonable in cost. They can also provide flank charges. Unlike Dragon Princes they are core, and the Dragon Princes advantage in weapon skill is mostly irrelevant as Silver Helms hit most units on 3s anyway. 1" extra move is more of a relevance against cavalry than infantry and skirmishers imo.

Deathraven
10-10-2006, 09:13
That's the great thing about HE mages, they are just so good at shutting the opponent out of the magic phase. Gotta feel sorry for VCs trying to keep their army intact when they keep sucking drain magics.
As for poison attacks from the likes of skinks who cares, HE have no toughness anyway! That's what all that shooting and magic is for, getting rid of these little annoyances like skirmishers and fast cavalry that try and stop you from out maneuvring the opposing army.

wolvemaster
06-07-2007, 06:09
Hey guys, I don't know if this topic has already been covered but most of the armies played around here are Chaos. I really have a hard time defeating them.

The army i need the most help against is

-Sorcerer
-Greater Demon
-Two groups of 10 chaos warriors

happy_doctor
14-11-2007, 23:49
Rise, long dead topic, rise!!! (invocation of happy_doctor)

Ok, what with the new HE book out on the shelves, i figured it would be better to have this tactica lying around than 20 or 30 new topics on what to use and how ;)

Please, no ASF whinefest... ("no he didn't!")

Vase
11-11-2008, 18:05
Holy cow, you said it Happy_Doctor, this topic is long dead and it needs to rise.

To any who are interested in HE tactics, strategies, etc.:

I'm currently compiling an all-comprehensive tactica over at the LO forum. If you would like to participate, or just read the articles that are already finished, come check it out.

http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/high-elves/145000-high-elves-ulthuan-he-tactica.html

Thanks...I hope this plug is not too shameless :P

TekDragon
20-02-2009, 21:28
Well, I'm getting close to going out to purchase my first HE army, but I'm stuck deciding between two completely opposite lists. God help me if I decide to get both. Could you guys read through this and tell me which one you prefer, and any major flaws? Be sure to read HOW I plan to use each list as well as the list itself.

The first list focuses on combat and mobility with 2 dragon prince groups of 8 (1 with 7 and a noble with battle banner), 2 lion chariots, and a prince on a star dragon with vambraces of defence and a star lance. Core group involves 2 groups of 10 archers with 2 level 1 mage scroll caddies trying to get off dispel magic tucked away behind the advance of the chariots and dragon princes. If I take it to 2250 I can add 2 eagles, add 2 more DPs to each group, and add a trinket here or there. Both the 2000 and 2250 have 4 pd, 4 dd, and 4 scrolls.

That list would be all about hittting hard, hitting fast, and hitting from 3-4 different angles. Dragon up one side, Dragon Princes up the other. Chariots straight up the gut hitting anything that turns to one side.

The second list focuses on combat and magic one big phoenix guard block, full command, with bannder of sorcery protecting an archmage with the invincible robe, talisman, and silver wand, and a life mage with seerstaff casting howling wind. This block is flanked by two 12-man groups of swordmasters, full command. Two 10-man archer groups spread out 10-wide in front of the swordmaster groups to block some shots on the advance. The archer groups have a high mage with ring of fury and a fire mage with the annulian crystal or dispel staff. Two eagles run up the side and try to tie up the artillery with archmage fire support. If I take it to 2250 I'd get one more fire mage, put him on an eagle, and put the other fire mage on an eagle too. That's give me a mobile magic wrecking crew to slow down an advance on a flank. The 2000 point list has an average of 14 pd and either 7 dd @ +2 dispel per dice or 8 dd. The 2250 point list has an extra 2 pd and 8 dd @ +2 dispel per dice or 9 dd.

That second list would involve a big scary melee group moving slowly up the middle, turning everything that gets within 24" into magic dust, and chopping anything that makes it through into pieces. The 2 archer groups spread out up front block magic line of sight (not too worried due to dispel dice) and shooting (not too worried due to Howling Wind). On the turn before they try charging my archers I'll pop Dragon Horn, then retreat the archer groups through the main block (no panic tests) and reform them to the sides to charge into any flankers to deny CR.

TekDragon
20-02-2009, 21:31
Also please note that neither of those lists used any characters, they also had significant weaknesses. First army excels at mobility and combat but has next to no magic and very little shooty. Second list excels at combat and magic, but has only moderate mobility and very little shooty.

I tried to make them strong, fun to play, and fun to play against, with 2 big strengths and 2 big weaknesses.

Molay
23-04-2009, 13:38
hi,
i would really need some help, a friend of mine is playing a chaos armee which is focused on magic...
what he told me he is going to have:
about 21 energy dice
70 models (66 of those are pink horrors)
but all of his models would have a 4+ ward save...
any tips?

happy_doctor
23-04-2009, 15:08
Since the army focuses on Tzeentch magic and units, most of the attacks are going to be flaming. Dragon Princes and/or a prince on dragon with the armour of Caledor is your best bet.

Redheadedmb
24-12-2009, 00:14
Alright, here it goes.

In January, my brother (Dwarves), father (Empire), and I are engaging in an 8 week escalation tournament starting at 1000pts. My brother and I are current testing various army lists against each other and for some odd reason he keeps winning, (despite what I believe to be are pretty decent army lists). Now without revealing any lists yet, would anyone be kind enough to share some tactics to keep High Elves living and effectively fighting against other forces? Please?