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FatOlaf
17-02-2007, 14:31
I have an upcoming 3K battle with my TK vs Bret.
I have played WFB for nearly 20 years but my TK force is very new and I have not used them against Bret before.
So any tips? what should I have in my list, what works well against Bret?
I have plenty of the models available, so fire away...

Wez
17-02-2007, 17:46
Screaming skull catapults. Two or three if possible. They ignore armour saves and if you panic any knights the combination of long thin units, mediocre leadership and a 3D6 flee distance can see units fleeing off the table on turn one.:)

Other than that a block of skeleton warriors or tomb guard is useful if it's large enough because they don't flee, so the Brets will be stuck in combat for more than one turn which is bad for them.

Ushabti, Tomb Scorpions and a Tomb King are your best chance of actually killing knights. Use incantations to charge where possible. Chariots are also useful because they're incredibly fast, agile and can kill a few knights on the charge. A unit of carrion can stop any march moves.

Archers, bone giants and cavalry are imo all a bit poor against Brets. The bone giant can be useful, but mainly for the terror it causes. In combat it is imo not worth the points you pay for it: ushabti are better.

The two armies I use in fantasy are Brets and Tomb Kings.:)

Dspankdo
17-02-2007, 18:09
Gig units of skeletons are your friend, 3 or 4 blocks of 30 should do it. Then fill out the remaining points with 3 liche priests, icon bearer, TK and LHP. That should leave about 6-700 points to spend on chariots and the already mentioned catapults.

FatOlaf
17-02-2007, 18:22
My three rares are going to be 1 SSC, 1 BG and the COS.. Do you think the COS is worth trying against Bret?
I would take 2 SSC's but I dont have the model built yet (god I hate building them)

Wez
17-02-2007, 19:28
It depends. Their damsels and prophetesses have magic resistance which works against the casket. They also have pegasus knights and mounted yeomen so the casket may die quickly. However if you ever do cast it you can destroy hundreds of points in one go...

I'd get it if you have spare points, but otherwise it should stay at home.

FatOlaf
17-02-2007, 21:32
I do have the spare points and I think my Khalida poison bowmen should take care of his pegasus knights (i hope) but what is this mahgic resistance that the damsels have, how is this activated?

druchii
17-02-2007, 22:44
I do have the spare points and I think my Khalida poison bowmen should take care of his pegasus knights (i hope) but what is this mahgic resistance that the damsels have, how is this activated?

Damsels and prophetesses add MR to the units they join. As long as a spell(including the Casket) effects a unit with MR they're allowed to add that dice to the dispel attempt. Effectively meaning that if a unit with a damsel will be effected by the light of death, your opponent will get a free dice(or two) to dispel the effect.

Also, refrain from grabbing TOO many bowmen. How effective do you think they'll be against 3+save 2W models? Not very.

Chariots will put Brets in a quandry. Terribly. Units with 16-18" charge ranged are something I loathe facing with my Brets, especially a unit that can be magically charged into a flank or front.

Also, any stone thrower is absolutely awesome against Brets. The screaming skull catapuls is uniquely suited to tossing some Brets back into the lake. the S4 hits off the stone thrower wound on 3s and allow NO armor save and only a 6+ ward, where as things like cannons and such, allow a 5+. Oh, and they force panic at -1 (which will be about 6-7 depending on the unit).

Good luck man.

d

Alathir
18-02-2007, 00:27
Bretonnia have trouble versus any undead armies since they are all essentially unbreakable. I recommend, as people have said, big blocks of units. They will be a massive thorn in his side.

FatOlaf
18-02-2007, 10:43
Right then, I will drop the COS as if they get free DD it kinda ruins the point of it. I will go for 2 SSC's and the BG, 2 or 3 30 blocks of skeles with some poison archers, Khalida leading in a nice block of TG with the reform banner. The TG will be surrounded by 2 3 man units of Ushabti who will help flank attack any knights. Chariots on the flank lead by a TP in a chariot of fire supported by a BG in case he gets to charge first. I am tempted to go with a war banner held by a mounted IB flitting around near the Ushabtis to give them some much needed +2 CR in CC and two less CR wounds if they lose.
Having read the other thread about the IB, it has kinda changed my mind regarding their competence, 90 points including a war banner is surely worth a pop?

Wez
18-02-2007, 11:02
I think a liche priest, while more expensive, is still better, but if you've already got 2-3 of those get the IB.:)

Out of interest, why Khalida?

She's awful in combat against Brets and the poison arrows aren't particularly good against Brets either. Even against pegasus knights they won't do a lot. A tomb king with a 4+ ward save and a great weapon is imo considerably better and cheaper.

Maybe a unit of Tomb Guard somewhere? They're amazing against charging cavalry as they're incredibly hard to kill.

FatOlaf
18-02-2007, 11:43
Out of interest, why Khalida?


Maybe a unit of Tomb Guard somewhere? They're amazing against charging cavalry as they're incredibly hard to kill.


Come to think of it you're right, a quick scan of her stats made me change my mind, yep at S4 she's not going to be too hot vs bret armour clad knights. I think i was getting carried away with her since she led my army last week against a DE/Slannesh 3 K horde and I massacred them by an amazing 2500 VP's. She was awesome in that battle. But yes, I think I will go for a good old TK with GW or maybe the flail of skulls. That saves me some points to go towards my TG unit. I agree with you about them and absolutely love them, the killing blow is such a deterrent vs armour. I will have a unit of 18 (all I've got so far:cries: ) with IB and TK in the unit carrying a war banner, giving the unit a mighty +7 CR before we even charge the flank of a lance formation unit ;)

Wez
18-02-2007, 12:26
You could just use skeletons as tomb guard? I'm sure no-one will care if you have 18 tomb guard and 5 skeletons as a unit of tomb guard.

That unit's going to be insanely expensive. I wouldn't put both characters in the unit, but each to their own. Good luck!:)

chaos_core
18-02-2007, 14:43
dont forget a scorp or some tomb swams to take out his treb if he has one

FatOlaf
19-02-2007, 13:56
Oh yes, I have 2 strong swarm unit to go for his Trebuchet and a scorpion to protect my SSC's from his skirmishers and yeoman.

Von Wibble
19-02-2007, 16:15
Khalidah is at her best against high T, low armour save forces, such as Deamons, Ogres and Orcs. She is very poor against armies which use armour, such as....Bretonnians!

Bone Giant is very useful - since knights struggle to hurt it, and its a construct. They hold knights in place very well and then a flank charge by chariots can seal it. On charge its one of few things that can nail knights, but often a unit of Ushabti is more devastating. However the BG gets terror and +1M on its side.

Skull chukkas are good but remember due to the knights large base size you won't actually hit that many at a time - lucky rolling aside you are unlikely to hit more than 2-3 models at a time. A skull chukka will therefore do well to earn its points back. Don't bother with skulls of the foe as a bret army that knows its facing undead will do what it can to counter panic.

Against high save average Ld models the Banner of the Cursing Word is useful. On a chariot it will force 3 Ld checks on knights. With Ld 8 or less thats 1 wound average (and front rank knights will tend to have important things like champions and characters there).

Roadblock units are very useful. 2 units of 10 skeleton archers and 2 units of 5 Light/Heavy Horsemen (or a combination thereof) will only set you back a relatively modest 320pts. But in addition to shooting mounted squires and his own bowmen (pegasus knights if you're feeling lucky, but I'd prefer to try to get them in combat), they can angle themselves right in front of a nasty lance, giving it 2 options - charge and present flank to the enemy, or not charge and waste a turn. Heavy Horsemen could also present a threat if they get a flank charge with a powerful unit being engaged in the front, as they can negate rank bonus. But also take some (at least 2) big units (at least 25 models) as well - the unbreakable thing will force him to charge in multiple units to ensure victory. And your roadblocks will prevent him from doing this.

Tomb Guard are a risk. Charging Grail knights still hit on 3s and wound on 2s, ignoring armour - just like they would against a skeleton. With the damage they can do you won't get attacks back and so the extra points spent are wasted. Granted they are a lot better against non Errantry banner Errant knights (like they exist!), and indeed any S5 cavalry. Therefore if you take them, either take a smallish block as counterattackers, or make sure they are matched against the correct foe. The aforementioned roadblocks can do this for you of course.

Tomb Scorpions are useful against artillery but 2 bases of Tomb Swarm can also do this using Core not Special. Rather than 2 Tomb Scorpions I would suggest 1 of each. (or 1 swarm, 2 scorps if you want to use the extara choice). Carrion could also be good here.

Ushabti and chariots are both good counterattackers. I recommend 2 units of chariots minimum, and 1 unit of Ushabti. If you go for an Icon Bearer, put him with the Ushabti.

Apart from that, I'd say give the Tomb King the Flail of Skulls to really nail Pegasus Knights, leave the casket at home (good as it is, the MR of damsels stops it), but make sure you own the magic phase - Brets defense here isn't the best.

FatOlaf
20-02-2007, 12:07
Good advice Von Wibble, the battle was postponed till tomorrow so good timing there.
I have def dropped Khalida and will indeed go for TK with Flail of skulls, he loves his Pegasus knights so I will go flappy horse hunting with TK Olaf.
I am going to finally glue up my horses and have a few roadblock units like you say, leaving my Ushabti and BG to go a knight slicing!

StormCrow
20-02-2007, 12:37
if you want your tomb guard to stand up to a bret charge give them the banner of the undying legion and put a prince in their ranks with scorpion armour, it worked wonders for me. I was able to hold the charge of 2 units of 9 KotR simultaneously with that combo and go on to break both units with flanking chariots.

alternatively you can have the tomb guard in reserve accompanied by a TK with destroyer of eternities and collar of shapesh with the icon of rakaph. that is the ideal counter charge unit and will make any unit think twice before charging into it.

Also, the king in a unit of chariots with icon of the sacred eye is almost unstoppable on the charge. i usually equip mine with flail of skulls and 4+ ward in a chariot with this unit issuing challenges and crushing units. very good against anyone, especially lowly peasants

FatOlaf
21-02-2007, 12:31
if you want your tomb guard to stand up to a bret charge give them the banner of the undying legion and put a prince in their ranks with scorpion armour, it worked wonders for me. I was able to hold the charge of 2 units of 9 KotR simultaneously with that combo and go on to break both units with flanking chariots.

Yes this combo worked well for me and I will use it, TP with GW in a 30 strong unit should be able to hold until the flankers arrive


alternatively you can have the tomb guard in reserve accompanied by a TK with destroyer of eternities and collar of shapesh with the icon of rakaph. that is the ideal counter charge unit and will make any unit think twice before charging into it.

Not sure about the DOE and really want to put my TK in a chariot..


Also, the king in a unit of chariots with icon of the sacred eye is almost unstoppable on the charge. i usually equip mine with flail of skulls and 4+ ward in a chariot with this unit issuing challenges and crushing units. very good against anyone, especially lowly peasants

Is the flail any good against R&F though, come to think of it does the multi wound inflict more wounds against single wound R&F???

I was thinking of a TK in a chariot, LA and Shield. Blade of Setep and crown of kings. This gives me a greater chance of his MWBD coming off and getting his chariot unit into the flanks of the Bret Knights where he will be hitting on 3's and wounding on 3's or 2's with no AS, then maybe giving the chariot unit with him, either th Icon of the Sacred eye (is it worth though?) or the mirage standard as he has loads of skirmishers archers and 2 Trebuchets???

Or I give him Blade of Setep, Golden Eye of Rah-Nutt and Chariot of Fire but I think maybe his attacks and the ability to get into CC on my terms might be more important than more -1 AS impact hit and worrying about Trebuchet hits???
What do you think?

FatOlaf
22-02-2007, 15:41
Additional question, what do you think would be best to protect the 2 SSC's from the Pegasus knights.
A) charge them first with 3 carrion
B) A waiting TS
c) 3 strong swarm as healable tarpit??