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View Full Version : Having poor results using flyer daemons...



feintstar
18-02-2007, 04:39
Yeah, well that says it all really.

In around 4 games taking 3x Screamers and 5x furies, they've been wiped without acheiving anything in any game. In order to charge the hated warmachines, they have to be in LOS of your opponent, who rightly sees them as a soft target and charges or blows the crap out of them, sometimes in both magic and shooting. Seeing their immune to psych difficulty, I can't flee. Against dwarves, they bounce off the artillery crews. Against Ogres, they just don't have anything worth doing with them, any combat will simply see them beaten and wounds caused against them, leaving them with responsibility for lowering my combat res. If I leave them near the ogre army, they'll turn and blast the crap out of them with Leadbelcher cannons.

Likewise have had similar problems with Marauder cav, but haven't used them as much, only 2 games, and they got wiped without achieving anything in those either.

So, am I using them incorrectly? Should I keep them hidden and then jump Over my opponents? Should I just keep them out of combat/Los til they can be used for march blocking? Should I bring bigger units, and less of them?

Thanks in advance guys...

Makarion
18-02-2007, 07:50
Boddy of mine has decent luck with a unit of 8 furies. They sometimes evaporate a little if he's sloppy moving them, but if all goes well he parks them out of the LOS of enemy gunners, then flak- or rearcharges them in turn 2. He's also taken out multiple warmachines in one turn (3d6 overrun and fear are a beautiful thing).

It's why I have started to like pistoliers and outriders against Chaos Daemons. Normally, marchblocking is not a huge thing versus them (never a bad thing, but not critical), but the 360 degree sight is real good at dealing with flyers.

Finnigan2004
18-02-2007, 15:52
A daemonic army seems to be a tricky one. When I use mine (undivided and khorne or pure khorne), I prefer to use LOTS of fast units rather than counting on a few. I tend to use my furies, bloodcrushers, flying characters, and 15-20 flesh hounds. Otherwise, my daemons tend to evaporate under heavy shooting.

hoboreefer
19-02-2007, 15:37
are you running mostly a mortal army and using the daemons for splash, or is it a daemon amy and the furies/screamers just for artilary? i guess i'm just wonderin what army you use and what kinds of tactics you employ. i'd bump the number in both units, or eliminate the furies and just run a larger unit of screamers (i personally don't like furies). in regards to the marauder horsemen, for 65 pts...let the enemy blow the crap out of em. it's a turn they didn't wreak havoc on your knights.

DeathlessDraich
19-02-2007, 16:02
1) It's a myth that the sole purpose of flyers is to take out warmachines. Their purposes depend on the opposing army.
2) Gauge the gunline accurately before sending flyers against it. Flyers will be very successful against:
a) a single warmachine especially stone throwers
b) a move or fire unit of shooters e.g. crossbowmen

Other uses where flyers excel:
3) Chasing and catching fleers
4) Flying behind enemy units to march block, threaten a future rear charge or a double charge.
5) Placing them behind an enemy unit in combat that will probably be broken - when they break, they flee into the flyers and are destroyed.
6) Hunting isolated characters/models/small units.

Screamers are great for flying over (and over again) combat units without engaging them in combat - Slashing attack. They are also reasonable in combat, although I think Pegasus are better and being a fear causer helps against some armies.

Units that die early have not done 'nothing'. They have removed the magic and shooting from other targets. This is only worthwhile if the other units accomplish something in the process, e.g. manoeuvre into a flank charge.

feintstar
19-02-2007, 22:18
Thanks guys, that's pretty helpful actually.

Yeah I run a mortals Knights list with Daemon flyers cos that's the only type of flyer available.

I will seriously consider scrapping the small furies unit for more Screamers. I could save some points while cranking the effectiveness.

Problem I see with flyers versus gunlines is that usually they're facing a whole battery of guns, or they're not really facing anything. That means that while you are denying shots to the battery versus other targets, the battery uses the right weapon for the right job, and effectively hammers both targets.

I can successfully use them for march blocking, but charging just isn't that good with them.

Makaber
19-02-2007, 22:27
Well, seeing as you play a Knight based list, consider this: Each time your opponent is forced to fire his Helblaster or Handgunners or what have you not at your 100 points of Screamers, that is one round he is not shooting at your twice as expensive Knight units.

I've used Screamers quite a bit and like them a lot. While I don't always send them out hunting war machines, it's at least nice to have the option. Other than that, they're great for dealing with light cavalry (which is otherwise a pain in the ass to counter with an army with no shooting) and other really light units, like skirmishers. Their special fly-by attack is surprisingly useful as well, with a little luck you can break a unit of five light cav simply by flying over them when getting into position for a next-round charge.

hoboreefer
20-02-2007, 22:06
you mention you run a knight army. in addition to screamers, do you use marauder horsemen, or chaos hounds? i have a fondness for chariots myself, even though they can't march. you just need to play around with your list and discover strengths and weaknesses. from there you can tweak out your list to tone down strong spots to help weaker areas, or forget the soft spots and make the good better.

Hywel
20-02-2007, 22:18
I've found screamers to be irritatingly tough to kill. T4 with 2 wounds a piece and more often than not a 5+ ward is incredibly survivable for a non-monstrous flyer. That's not to mention the fear which might cause enemies to be hitting on 6's.

As others have said, I'd increase the number. 3 screamers doesn't really do much, 5 on the other hand can do some reasonable 'fly-by' damage to vulnerable units, can take a little flak and will have a fair number of attacks too.

Personally I'm gutted they're not available to my slaanesh army!

feintstar
21-02-2007, 03:46
I use screamers, furies, marauder horsemen, AND chaos hounds. And I have Spawn of Slaanesh.

I've heard occasional reports that 5 screamers is preferable to 3 screamers and 5 furies. I figured the more units, the less chance i lose all the points in a single instability test.

5 Screamers would also take up a lot of space, making the unit significantly more difficult to hide. Thoughts?

Neknoh
21-02-2007, 12:24
And said unit would also screen a LOT more of your vulnerable army, not to mention the fact that a unit of 5 screamers ammounts to 10 wounds at T4 with a 5+ ward.

In any decent cavalry army, you should have enough magical protection to survive the magic onslaught brought upon you by the enemy, might I also reckomend a unit of Mounted Daemonettes to further your Warmachine Hunting capabillities?

A unit of 8 Furies, a unit of 5 Screamers and a group of 6 Mounted Daemonettes will cause a true pain for your opponent to deal with in time, considering everything's got a charge of 20 inch and can deal a lot of hurt in close combat.

As for parking your Furies behind Ogre lines and the ogres then turning their leadbelchas arround to shoot them, that is a GOOD thing, those Leadbelchas will now be out of the game for arround 2 rounds before they can do anything of significance again, not to mention the fact that they will now stand with their backs turned towards the rest of your army, which should have enough of a charge range to hit them in their back.

A unit of 5 screamers utilizing their Slashing attack can easely kill a wizard hiding in a unit, then landing behind said unit, forcing it to turn away from the rest of your army if they want to deal with the threat that the screamers pose, again, a very bad thing to do when fighting cavalry armies

5 Dispell Dice+maybe a scroll, get this any way you like, be it khorne-marking of normal Knights or through the use of Sorcerors
3-4 knight units (prefferably one chosen)
2 Marauder Horsemen units with Flails and Musician
4 Warhound units

1 unit of 5 screamers
1 unit of 8 Furies
1 unit of 6 Mounted Daemonettes

throw in a pot, add a pinch of marks and you're all done