PDA

View Full Version : Tzeentch Mortals Tactica



Kerill
21-07-2005, 06:16
No army lists please, just sneaky ideas and ways to use Tzeentch mortals (incl. beasts and daemons but not daemon horde rules)

Tzeentch Overview

Always my favourite of the chaos powers, it is an army with many strengths and a few weaknesses.

Strengths:

A wide range of different troop types to choose from including the most powerful h-t-h troops in the game (apart from Khorne Chosen).
Combat lords with spellcasting powers means that you can save on character slots
A huge number of power dice
Some very useful magic items
Can choose flee as a charge reaction
Useful daemon sidekicks

Weaknesses:
Very expensive characters (especially with the Tzeentch mark)(means a lot of concentration in each one and means you will often have a
Many expensive troops
By far the weakest psychology of the mortal chaos armies- panic fear, terror and so on can affect your army a lot. Sure chosen knights have LD8, but they are an awful lot of points if they do fail and test.
Very little shooting- just flamers and the hell cannon (and screamers too in a way).

Tzeentch Magic

Tzeentch magic has 7 spells rather than the usual 6 in the lore which is fun for a bit of variety. As to the spells themselves:

Red fire- a very nice spell IMHO, a very good range (30”) but a very random effect, D6S6 hits rocks, D1S1 hits is laughable even to a snotling. Generally I think the randomness is quite a good thing as long as you have a couple of character with this spell- your opponent has to worry more about it than a normal basic magic missile just in case this time it does kick **** so more likely to draw out the dispel dice.

Orange Fire- Another good spell as a booster for your characters making them much harder to kill and more effective in combat. RiP means that your main spellcaster should maybe wait until he gets into combat. A Character with a good armour save/ more attacks will benefit more from this spell. So reasonable combos would be the blade of battle (+1A) Black Maul (extra S, extra attack from frenzy), Berserker sword (esp. against monsters) Chaos runesword and mounted on a chaos steed or with decent armour. Rerolls to wound mean that S5 is not a problem although enemy armoursaves might be. Of course if your enemy dispels it….


Yellow Fire- Another good spell, who doesn’t want their Chosen Warriors/Knights to have a 5+ward save. Remember you can only have 1 ward save so other ward saves (apart from the eye of Tzeentch) are not worth buying- go armour of damnation or crown of conquest if you need protection beyond the small rubber kind. Stacks nicely with orange fire- you will save against a cannon shot or other hits more than half the time (5/9 of the time). The only problem with Yellow fire is that it is RiP and you may want to protect yourself from shooty armies earlier- meaning you cant cast other spells or wasting a few power dice every turn to recast. This combined with the fact that the blasted standard can cast this without RiP problem means that its often the better option. For secondary casters its great, take a spell familiar to increase your chances of getting it.

Green Fire of Tzeentch- very useful against infantry ok against light cavalry (red fire would be better in most cases), very useful against greatsword/halberd arm troops. Useless against undead armies, and less useful against armies immune to psycholkoy (slaanesh, Khorne).

Blue Fire of Tzeentch- short range but powerful magi missile, potential for S7 hits.

Indigo Fire- not terribly useful except against infantry. Against T3 hw+s infantray will kill 1/8 of the unit. Some debate about whether you can use the horrors bound spell afterwards. If you can then s3 on every model in the enemy unit would kill another 1/4 of the unit. Horrors are very unlikely to win the next combat or do much damage unless you are very lucky indeed.

Violet Fire- 6” range means you will probably only be able to use this in the turn you charge or if you have a mobile character flitting about. Since it’s a Ld test, the models you really want to kill are likely to pass. Still your opponent may not wish to take that chance with his Vampire Lord saw can probably draw out a dispek. Generally not a big fan of this spell. Vulnerable characters- those far from the general, skaven, goblin heroes, beastmen, ogre kingdoms, skinks, necromancers (and other human spellcasters) and wraiths.

Overall the magic is quite good, but my biggest problem with it is that is very simple in execution- its not very Tzeentch. In many ways the Slaanesh spell list has far more devious Tzeentchy uses than the Tzeentch one, really a pity in fluff terms.

How to Play Tzeentch Mortal Armies

Charge forward, blasting the enemy with magic missiles and flatten them in close combat. Simple? Yes. Effective? Quite. Buy IMHO not very Tzeentchian, this all has its place of course but to be Tzeentchian you should try to be more sneaky in what you do use cunning tricks (I don’t just mean lord on a dragon with staff of change and eye of Tzeentch). Use your units, deployment and control the game more. I’ll leave looking in depth at units to later but for now a few tricks that can be used:

Warhounds are you’re number 1 unit for sneaky tricks, cheap, disposable, fast, US2. Can be used to redirect enemy charges, shield troops (units of 9). Get a rank bonus and can cancel rank bonus when 3 or more in the unit. Horriblw leadership though, but any chaos character (even an undivided level 1 sorcerer) can add a good leadership boost for the first turn or two before you use them/sacrifice them (moving the sorcerer out first) and can act as a flying reserve/rank bonus in time of need. Alternatively a unit of 19 hounds, 4 wide led by an aspitring champion with mark of Tzeentch gives the unit a standard. With a spell familiar he can have a 50% chance of getting the yellow fire making them much more combat viable. Alternativel the blasted standard can guarantee the spell. What do we have now? a unit with a standard, +3 rank bonus, M7, Ws4, possible ward save and a massive US of 40. Led by a very capable combat character. Lacks a champion for challenges though. Still against basic units you have +3 (ranks) +1 (standard) +1 (US) and 19 hounds come pretty cheap. You pursue and flee at 3D6” and can reroll break tests. Usually I would give the exalted the sword of the battle standard bearer (i.ew. sword of might) and spell familiar. Alternatively give him a banner (blasted or war would be best) or give him sword of might and armour of damnation.

Units of 5 warhaounds are throw away screeners, march blockers and can redirect enemy chargers. Units of 12 get a +2 rank bonus and US of 24 and can chase off lighty cavalry units if needed (far from 100% necessary if you have a lot of magic missiles) Can also support the charge of cavalry to get extra rank bonus. Can also be part of the refused flank of an army if spaced fairly widely apart to not spread panic

A lot of warhound use makes using a chaos lord rather than exalted champion as general more viable since panic tests are likely to be more numerous.

Beast herds make a very useful screening unit that can keep up better with cavalry. And add a decent rank bonus, make e’m ungor heavy.

Furies and screamers in units of 5+ get +2 for charging the rear of enemy units and screames make it more likely that your enemy’s wizards will have to hide in units. Since you can take two units of fliers it makes it easier to have a refused flank.

Tzentch Wargors are an excellent choice if you take a beast herd, with the gore tooth the get 6 attacks, reroll misses in the first round and if on their own can pursue 3d6”. Also a good battle standard bearer with the gore tooth..

Chaos spawn can be used as the second line of your assault in case things go wrong, keep them behind your cavalry, if you flee your enemy will pursue into the spawn, random movement makes this awkward though. Remember that a small unit of furies/screamers can also quickly fly behind your army to fulfill this roll and are also immune to psychology. They are likely to disintegrate next round though and as skirmishers cant redirect attacks well.

Refused Flank: Straight forward enough- have fast troops and flyers that cost little on flank to slow the enemy down, wahounds redirect charges, maybe a chariot to add a bit of threat everything else on the other flank and roll the enemy over.

The army of attrition: Personally I always prefer a fast attack Tzeentch army for fluff reasons (Khaldors Knights of Tzeentch in the old fluff) but another option is the attrition based chaos army. Lord and Battle Standard almost required. Unit of 12 chosen warrior with blasted standard/war banner, maybe more warriors Chaos trolls, Undivided Heroes (to keep cost down- maybe one with the book of secrets) or wargors, firewyrms (fen beasts if you have a DE), chariots, beastherds, marauders (for rank bonus) and wear your enemy down until he breaks. A bit different from the usual list but nurgle and Khorne both do it better (because of fear on one hand and sheer combat power on the other). Hellcannon might be worth a look in if you can spare the points. Flyers/mounted marauders to attack enemy flankers.

MSU (Multiple Small Units) Tzeentch. Chaos Knights can come in units as small as 4 with a champion, you have minotaurs, kick ass heroes, light cavalry that hits hard (marauders with flails), dragon ogres ( bit too many points there really), fast skirmishing infantry (beast herds, chariots), throwaway lght units (hounds), flyers that are Immune to Psychology, spawn, Giants. As a result you can make a decent little MSU army out of Chaos, Tzeentch has the extra advantage of all those power dice for whittling the enemy down too and if you take MSU with lots of Tzeentch marked units you will have an obscene magic phase.

Riddy
21-07-2005, 07:24
All very interesting and some very valid points but i think it would be more useful if this was posted in the chaos tactic thread, there is a reason there is only one (If there wasn't we could end up with 12+ chaos tactica threads, one for each god and army type.)

Lord_Sanguinius
22-07-2005, 00:54
You pretty much proved every point. so i dont have anything to say.



:(

Kerill
22-07-2005, 04:05
A couple of other things to try:

Dark emissary in the army (dont take a lord with the staff of change though or you will lose friends at an alarming rate. Emissary is nice and Chaosy too (as a servant of Belakor). Also allows you to go for fenbeasts rather than spawn- faster, more reliable movement and can be healed in the magic phase. Also a legal choice. DE is a dogs of ware unit using 1 hero, 1 rare slot, 1-3 fenbeasts use 1 rare slot. DE is about as useful as a spare testicle in combat though so will need saome chaperoning.

The interesting part with the DE though is the new spells he brings which are more interesting and Tzeentchy in potential rather than endless magic missiles and blasty spells.:

Emiisary Spells:

Bolt of dark light- S5 magic missile with slightly reduced range. Pretty good and useful if you need a set strength magic missile and for when the enemy get closer.

Betrayal in Death- very interesting spell, especially with the combat prowess of chaos taken into account. Also makes chariots on the charge even more powerful. Taking over minds is also quite Tzeentchy and its all in all a cool spell with a reasonable casting level. Very useful against horde undead since they often have poor saves (zombies) and you can whittle the unit down very quickly with this. Can also be cast into a difficult combat to swing the odds your way.

Nightmare- forces a panic test- very useful at times, not so good against high Ld opponents. Still most non dwarven war machine crews, skink units (esp with a skink shaman in them) and humans outside the generals range. Can send a goblin army fleeing in short order too. Some flyers/fast units to take advantage might be a good idea, but this sort of conflicts with the fog of death..

Curse of the dark master- Not a bad spell, if a little expensive. -1 to hit for enemy is not so useful on enemy shooters unless a big unit (which is rare) and remains in play. Against a unit in combat its very useful. Stacks well with the armour of damnation when going up against that blood dragon vampire lord. On a side note for slaanesh armies stacks with the slaanesh banner to mean most enemies hit your knighjts/warriors/characters only on a six. Overall best befoe receiving a charge or for difficult combats. Unlimited range is useful.

Fog of Death- My favourite spell in the list, potentially very powerful and there is no other spell like it. D6s3 hits on every enemy unit on the table, own units also take D6S3 hits on a 4+. Bear the latter in mind, units of furies, screamers and warhounds will suffer badly, the latter likely to panic if far from the general and small units. Might be worth skipping some units or making them bigger. Add a few more models to your marauders/beast herds just in case. Still your other troops, with their high T and good armour saves will usually shrug the hits off, and you will also have less units than your opponent in many cases. Still you have the potential to wipe out war machine crews, weaken shooters, enemy light cavalry and regiments in one shot. Lethal against Wood elves- all those dryads, archers, wild riders and wardancers will suffer. Also great against those annoying lone mages that love hiding in woods so much.

Coils of the serpent- another character killer spell. Better than violet fire in most cases since it is more likely to kill your opponent and has a better range. On the other hand you don’t want your emissary too near combat (T3). Also cant be cast into combat, unlike violet fire. Not a big fan of the spell, more for suckering dispel scrolls than anything and if your enemy army is cavalry you will have few chances to use it, maybe none. (out of range, out of range, in combat).

The Undivided army of Tzeentch:

Take an exalted champion of Tzeentch as general, undivided sorcerer/bray shaman as a scroll caddy and all other characters/units are undivided (maybe one unit of Tzeentch klnights for the blasted standard.

With this you can make your army much bigger than normal and the points your fearful opponent has spent on magical defences will go to waste. Army will also perform better against psychology.

Kerill
22-07-2005, 09:13
Riddy, I want to do this one separately so that everything can be gatherd together in one place in a logical order, if the powers that be want me to summarise and add it to the chaos thread together than thats cool.

PelsBoble
22-07-2005, 20:26
In my opinion the Truthsayer would benefit chaos more than the DE. Mainly because i like his lore alot. It may seem defensive compared to the DE lore, but unlimited range on most spells is extremely good. It also enhances the combat abilities of your troops making them even better ;)

A truthsayer is ofcourse way more unfluffy for a chaos army.

As kerill said the febeast are pretty nice and way better than spawns in my opinion. But the main problem is if the DE or TS die. Then all fenbeast are lost. So the TS is better in this case also as hes got way better combat abilities as well as a 4+ ward.

Kerill
24-07-2005, 05:04
Pelsboble:

Good points about the trusthsayer and the +1 dispel is probably more useful than +1 to cast as well. A couple of their spells (blessing of valour/light of battle in particular) are quite useful too although on the whole nothing in the list quite compares with fog of death.

Anyway, as is traditional, onto the Character Choices:

Demon Prince with Master of Mortals 6/10

Can fly, causes terror and can have 5 attacks with no armour save against your opponent. Magic level 4 is cheaper than for other Demon Princes and with master of sorcery has an excellent chance of getting orange fire to help fend off those cannon balls (you will now save against them more than half the time). Flight can be handy for the violet fire as well. Problems are the cost- its very very expensive indeed, can't join non demon units and even if it does can be targeted for shooting. Against missile heavy armie he is in serious trouble.

Not really a big fan myself, prohibitive cost point sink with less combat attacking ability than a Chaos Lord (who can have S7 attacks and a nice armour save), overcosted gifts generally of somewhat limited use.

Chaos Lord of Tzeentch: 8/10 (10/10 with staff of change)

Excellent powerful lord choice but very expensive. With orange fire is the most effective attacking character of the game apart from the bloodthirster. Did I mention he can take the staff of change- the best arcane item in the game which every Slann would happily trade in his left spawning sac for. Eye of Tzeentch allows him to mount big nasty monsters/chariots and give excellent protection from shooting. Ld9 is also very useful for Tzeentch, especially if you are going warhound heavy.

If you do take the staff, other useful item,s for the remaining ponts are:

armour of damnation- 9/10very useful protection item, isnt a ward save so is in addition to the yellow fire ward save.
Blade of Blood- 7/10 In case you need six wounds. No great weapion now though
Bane Shield- 6/10 a 1+ re-rollable save (with orange fire) causing S4 hits on your opponent. Gimmicky but quite nice.
Scimitar of Skultar- 5/10 still not wonderfull effective an item, with re-rolls to hit from orange fire it goes from "a waste of points" to "something to take for a change from a GW" More useful on a tzeentch wargor since they have lower S.
dispel scroll- 8/10 you know you want one
eye of tzeentch- 10/10 if in chariot or mounted on something monstrous.

Can be mounted on:

Chaos steed: 9/10 For a nice 2+/1+ save, good movement and can join knights.
Chaos Dragon:7/10, 9/10 with eye. For a horrendously powerful, horrendously useful unit- probably the best thing in the whole warhemmer game. In small battles you will lose friends. If your opponent is an empire steam tank user bring it for a cheese vs cheese battle you are sure to win.
Disk of Tzeentch: 6/10 nice and fluffy, but with several drawbacks- sticks out like a sore thumb for enemy shooting (yes I know you can take the eye), needs supporting, means your lord can not increase his as substantially. Fear causing makes your lord immune to fear (useful against undead for example) and at a combined US4 will auto break wizards and warmachine crew (not so useful since you are likely to have hacked them to death anyway). Mobility helps use the blue and violet fire more effectively.
Daemonic Mount: 5/10 Similar to the disk, slightly less manoueverable but packs a slightly better combat punch.

In the old edition a champion of Tzeentch with the breathe fire reward on a disk was a barrel of chortles but now they aren’t so useful, a real pity.

The daemonic mounts are generally a bit more worthwhile against undead where there is little shooting and fear autobreaks could be an issue.

Exalted Champion of Tzeentch- 9/10

Nice powerful character, half the price of the tzeentch lord, almost the same combat prowess. Cant carry the staff of change but can do anything else pretty well. Good gear to choose from too. Armour of damnation, dispel scrolls, craown of everlasting conquest (if the general). For steeds, same comments apply as for the lord above, but disks are maybe a little more viable there since he can be a useful mage hunter/war machine/archer/light cavalry killer whereas the lord needs to be in major combats to get his points back so the disk option goes up to 8/10. If on a disk with the eye a spell familiar might be a good chpice to use his LOS for more spells and to have more chance of getting blue fire (violet fire on a 12+ casting roll is unlikely to happen unless Tzeentch is grinning like a loon at you today).

3 Exalteds on disks would look cool in an army (quite expensive though) and would have a combined fear causing unit S of 12, 12 S7 attacks (great weapons) and 3 S5 attacks. Throw in a few furies/ogres./minotaurs/trolls and you have autobreak potential. Not 100% practical but flexible enough and cool.

Aspiring Champion of Tzeentch 7/10 9/10 with battle standard

Generally for combat I woukld rather pay the extra 20 points for an extra attack and WS. Ws7 is better than Ws6 because most standard units will only be hitting you on a 5or 6 rather than a 6. Against spearmen, wights with killing blow (grave guard etc and their champions.) wraiths, spearmen, pikemen (if for some reason you have to make a frontal charge) it can make a difference. Against Ws4 armies (elves, dwarves) against rnf there will be no difference but against their lord characters it will mean they are hitting on 4’s rather than3s. The extra attack means you get more value from orange fire and cause more casualties. An aspiring champion of tzeentch is not a bad character by any means-my other armies would love one, but exalted is better. The exception is if you really need 20 points (in which case an undivided exaltedf with book of secrets would save you thirty) or to take the battle standard. The battle standard is very useful in a tzeentch army, especially since there are units that lack a standard trolls and warhounds both benefit greatly (especially the latter), and an independent standard can be useful at other times too. You may or may niot want to give him a magic banner- blasted banner, flesh banner and war banner are all good choices. I usually go for spell familiar, biting blade and dispel scroll. Spell familiar and scroll her since I am slightly less likely to get him into battle quickly so the extra spell allows me to get more use and more chance for yellow fire to protect him/his regiment.

Alternatively you can take an undivided battle standard bearer with the banner of the gods- very useful if you want to take an attrition based army, in which case keep him safe.

For mounts pretty much the same applies as for the exalted champion, but I tend to always go for the chaos steed to protect my 100 VPs.

Beastlord 6/10 (8/10 with staff)

His inability to be mounted (except in the chariot at the cost of a precious special choice.). Can add a bit of oomph to a beast herd. Still he doesn’t quite fit with the army since herds are unlikely to be your main combat units. The man reason to take him is to get the staff of change without having to shell out the points for a chaos lord- since he is LD8 an exalted champion can be your general. In an infantry based army he’s pretty cool, in a cavalry based army he is too slow to get back his points.

Exalted Daemon: 6/10

Almost the same comments as for the Demon prince really except it keeps a Lord slot free. Slightly more viable as a terror unit since the lower points anmd can also be used to chase light/archer/warmachine units early on. Still an exalted champion on a disk will hit harder, can be far more survivable, and costs about 80 points less, and has better equipment/magic item choices. 80 points is a lot to be able to fly and extra 5” and cause terror. Not to menmtion he is a large target for enemy shooting, unlike the disk.

Wargor: 7/10

A good leader for a beast herd and a decent character to carry a battle standard. A cavalry attack with a second wave of beasts and chariots is good.. Since your BSB re-rolls can help your initial assault if bogged down and then the second wave can break through. For this to work you will need a refused flank otherwise you won’t have enough coverage. With the gore tooth he has a potential 6 s6 attacks (with re-rolls from hatred and possible re-rolls from orange fire) making him a monster in combat. Alternatively the staff of darkoth gives you a nice spell, and the choice of a great weapon or +2 as. Battle standard bearers cant use the staff though.. If you need some defence crimson armour of dargan gives him a reasonable AS (2+ with the staff of darkothj) and a nice little extra ability. If your opponent’s basic troops are M5 (e.g. elves) the dark heart might be a decent investment too.

Dark Emissary- 8/10

Mostly covered above, remember fenbeasts are much better than spawn in most cases. If your opponent has some powerful flying units (lord on a dragon, Pegasus knights) it might be worth keeping a fenbeast 1” ahead of the dark emissary in his unit to protect him from getting wiped out too early on.

Truthsayer- 7.5/10

As pelsboble pointed out he is a better fighter than the dark emissary and much more survivable. Against armies with powerful flyers he may well be a better choice. Some of his spells are very useful boosters. Blessing of valour on chosen knights springs to mind. As mentioned above +1 dispel is better than +1 power especially if you don’t have the staff of change or if it burned out. He's not listed as an option in armybuilder, so I'm not sure if he's legal- anyone have that White Dwarf?

Kerill
24-07-2005, 05:06
Overall I still prefer the emissary, especially against undead (no hard flyers apart from a vampire- fellbats are unlikely to kill your emissary) but you can whittlke down a lot of units including wolves with fog of death. Also betrayal in death is excellent against undead units- undead rnf die easily, the extra comrade attacks and the addition they make to the overall combat score means you can disintegrate units with ease. Against skaven shooty armies (ratling guns, jezzails) fog of death is a god send.

At the end of the day though, your choice of characters is largely constrained by points cost. In a typical 2150 point army I often have a whopping 35% invested in characters, a total of 12PD and 6DD. For example:

1) Chaos Lord of Tzeentch, steed, staff of change and armour of damnation. Aspiring champion of tzeentch, bettle banner with 50points of items,(to save a few points sometimes undivided with book of secrets and biting blade- saves 70 points) wargor with gore tooth. And dispel/crimson armour (860 ish points)
2) Dark Emissary, 2 Exalted Champions (mounted) 1 with crown of conquest (general) one with spell familiar and armour of damnation. (740 ish points)
3) Exalted Champion (mounted)- general, crown of conquest, Aspiring champion of Tzeentch BSB (50 points of items), Beastlord of Tzeentch with staff. Of change., Armour of damnation (820 ish points).

All that can take them have great weapons.
For a 2000 point army I might well drop a more expensive character for a brayshaman or sorcerer on steed..

Kerill
24-07-2005, 06:37
Armies of Tzeentch: Core Choices

Chaos chariot of Tzeentch 7/10 (6.5/10 if undivided, 7/10 against ogre kingdoms, undead)

A powerful unit on the charge, decent charge range, and extra power dice all for 140 points. Sadly turned to matchwood by S7+ hits like powerful lords and cannons. I’ve heard of a lot of powergaming with Tzeentch chariot armies, personally I think they are best used as an infantry support unit, their normal M being two slow to keep up with cavalry. Chariots are good in that they are worrying to an opponent and there are some units they are almost guaranteed to wipe out- light to medium cavalry units for example. With a character inside they become US5 and so can potentially negate ranks and with the eye become immune to most ranged attacks. Importanrtly, they count as a core unit choice.

Chaos Knights of Tzeentch 9/10, 10/10 if Chosen (8.5/9.5 if undivided)

Wonderful combat power, the lack of lances but S upgrade to 5 cuts both ways, S4 horses is also cool. Chosen Knights will cut their way through anything although will struggle to wound Imperial Knights- but that’s what heroes are for. The blasted banner is an excellent protecting banner, and the war banner is always useful. If you need to whittle down the foe quickly the flesh banner isn’t bad either. The banner of wrath is usually unnecessary since you shouldn’t be short of magic missiles. Remember you can have units of as little as four knights if you want- for MSU or for an annoyance unit more resistant to shooting than mounted marauders.

Chaos warriors of Tzeentch 7/10, 8/10 if chosen. (undivided the same- infantry are likely to have to worry about psychology more)

Solid warriors, but very expensive. Chosen will benefit from halberds/great weapons and the blasted banner, other regiments should go hw/s if ina deep block, or halberds/add.weapons/great weapons in a small block. In terms of effectiveness though CW are not as good as Chaos Knights. Nurgle and Khorne armies benefit more from warriors than Tzeentch.

Marauder Horsemen- 7/10
nice hard hitting fast cavalry, I usually go for flails and a champion. An atrocious save means they are very unlikely to survive the battle against even moderately shooty opponents.

Chaos marauders- your main infantry unit, solid but nothing special. 7/10
Big units should go for hw+s, flanking units should go for great weapons/flails and a champion/musician only.

Chaos Warhounds- 9/10

An excellent little unit with many uses- in units of 5 can be an annoyance unit to threaten enemy flanksd and (more often) to redirect enemy charges and to protect your main units while they are getting stuck in. Can also be an important part of a refused flank strategy. Can protect your marauder cavalry in the first turn from shooting too. Units of 9 (9 for panic test reasons) have a +! Rank bonuses, and US of 18 so will break most archer units and have some chance against enemy fast cavaly. Units of 15/19 led by a character (esp BSB) should defeat most average units and can combine with knights to defeat any unit in the game. M7, 40US and +3 rank bonus for 114 points- yes please sir. Keep such units only 4 wide- your hounds lack of armour can give away combat resolution although Ws4 helps. The blasted banner/yellow fire of tzeentch also helps a lot. Alternatively a bare unit of 16 can stay near the general and charge in with knights into difficult combats- for just under a hundred points (96).

Special Units

A lot of useful things in here to choose from

Beast Herd 8/10

A very useful unit to back up a fast army. Go ungor heavy for maximum US and to absorb casualties, foe render is a must. Pretty cheap and powerful if led by a wargor a decent combat unit.

Bestigors 7/10

Faster than chaos warriors, but still expensive. Can have be Tzeentch marked. I can see a place for them in an infantry army, in a fast army I would go for trolls or minotaurs since they hit harder and are more survivable.

Chaos Furies- 9/10

Excellent little flying unit, take one for its innumerable uses. Larger units can combine with minotaurs/ogres/trolls to autobreak your opponents. Remember their potential use as a last chance enemy stopper- fly thwem behind yor troops so your opponent will have to pursue into them. If your opponents cavalry/chariot are threatening c charge to the flank of a unit from a longer range, sacrifice them by flying them 1” in front of your opponent- the enemy will probably overrun but maybe not far enough and the unit they were going to charge can move on/rally by then (or be chasing down the unit they are fighting in the combat phase.). Also good against war machine crew, lone wizards, chasing down fleeing troops and, if in larger numbers against missile troops. At Ld 6 they are very likely to pop if they lose. Important in a refused flank battle.

Screamers- 9/10

Much the same applies here- but tougher against shooting, have a slashing attack and less likely to pop out of existence in combat. On the other hand they have the same US as furies but cost double the amount. Ground movement of 1 means they wont be chasing down mages in forests either.

Which to take? Screamer or furies- I would go for a small unit of both. Against missile regiments or for fear autobreaks combine their charge, for general annoyance split them up.

Chaos Ogres- 6/10
I’ve run the numbers many times and am convinced Minotaurs are the better choice here, ogre bulls as a rare choice are also better. Their only advantage is a better save against shooting (4+) so if your opponent has a lot of bows might be worth a look in. Agaisnt handguns/ratling guns they are only slightly more survivable but cost more points.

Horrors- 6/10

In a slow army of attrition they have their place, as do the accompanying flamers, in a fast army they have no place. Of their spells, only one is particularly useful (12” range, every enemy takes a S3 hit). Quite good against undead, but will suffer badly against heavy cavalry from other armies. Did I mention they were expensive? Die horrible in the face of magic missiles. Units of 12 seem to work best.for a S3 magic missile and bound spell power 6.

Minotaurs- 8/10

Solid, hitty and nasty albeit with no ranks. To mark or not to mark is always a question depends on other factors really. I usually mark them and run them in units of 3 or 4. Pursue 3d6” is another important advantage over ogres. Will usually beat an equal sized (but more expensive) Kroxigor unit assuming all things are equal. In subsequent rounds after an initial charge will also win due to better Ws and higher Initiative. Give them great weapons.

Tuskgor Chariots- 6/10

If you really can’t afford the chaos version but really really want a chariot (or to mount a beast character) then take one otherwise go for the chaos one.

Chaos Trolls- 8/10

Better than the orc and goblin variety since they have an extra attack, and very survivable in combat. No standard or champion (unless led by the BSB). Subject to stupidity of course. 4 Trolls against a standard infantry unit (hw+s) will cause 4 kills per turn- on average losing by one (if they take a hit/enemy has a musician). Against heavy cavalry and vomiting they will cause just over 3 kills, less if they have lost a model of course. Regenerate means they can win any combat over a long enough period of time. If near the general and BSB they can be a real deadache for your opponent. If attacked by 6 inner circle knights they will take 3.266 wounds (losing a model) retaliate causing just under 3 wounds (vomiting). A model will regenerate (lets assume 1 wound) means they will win the combat by 1 (lost 1 less wound than knights, don’t have a standard but have a higher US) And will autobreak your opponent. Of course if your opponent has a hero or lord fighter this changes meaning you are likely to draw (therefore lose because of the musician), lose, and may lose too many wounds to regain a model (meaning you opponent may end up with highers US- although you will usually still have higher US this is where the general/Bsb comes in handy- in the next turn, without lances your opponents attacks will be weaker And combat should slowly swing in your favour. A unit of 1 troll near the general/Bsb is also hard to break- your opponent can at most cause 3 wounds (regenerate 1.5) Meaning they will win the copmbat by2 – you will be testing on Ld7 with a re-roll.

Rare Choices:

Spawn-6.5/10
Excellent in an infantry army as blockers, make them firewyrms if you have the points for a bit of extra fun or against undead to whittle down large blocks. In the fast army they are limited- maybe one to run behind your combat units in case your army breaks and to protect them from rear charges.

Dragon Ogres- 7/10
Powerful but expensive, against infantry minotaurs are almost as good and much cheaper. Against heavy cavalry they are excellent killers, as is M7 for charges, fleeing and pursuing.

Chaos Giant- Big, stubborn and terrifying. 8/10

I don’t like the idea of the mutant monstrosity- his special ability is to fall down? Its useful but it strikes me as a foolish special ability. Still the 5+ save can be useful against elven archers, although you seldom see them these days.

Hell Cannon- 7/10

Useful in a defensive army so you can use its breath weapon and attacks. Unbreakable is very useful. Have a couple of units of flyers/hounds/mounted marauders to catch enemy who fail their panic tests. Much less useful in an attacking army since the ponts spent on combat ability will be wasted. An expensive unit.

Kerill
24-07-2005, 06:38
Dogs of War

Well there are too many possibilities to go through all of them here, a few special mentions:

Fenbeasts- Excellent if you have the DE or TS.

Halfling hotpot- Just for a bit of fun really, convert something suitable daemonic and use hotpot rules. Nice to have a shooting phase.

Leadbelchers- an excellent little unit- take 2-3 to run with an attacking force and whittle enemy cavalry blocks down. Three lead belchers will cause an average of 15 S4 armour piercing hits. Of course they may kill themselves but hell they are just mercenaries. Not too bad in combat either with their ogre clubs.

Heavy Cavalry- If you need to save some points on a flanking cavalry unit. Not too much more expensive than marauders, and not fast cavalry but much more survivable. For your heavy hitters you should stick to Chaos Knights.

Norse Marauders- In theme with the army, but hit a bit harder than Chaos marauders due to frenzy.

Bearmen of Urslo- Similar to the above but more expensive and with a character and magic banner to cause extra havoc.

PelsBoble
24-07-2005, 11:28
Not to menmtion he is a large target for enemy shooting, unlike the disk.

Hes not a large target, nor is the deamon prince :)

The truthsayer is a RoR char so hes just as legal as a DE in chaos armies.

Also concerning the giants mutant attack. I have actualy found it to be pretty devastating. You get a str 6 hit which cause D3 wounds. Sure your giant lose a wound for falling, but since you get to choose the direction the giant is falling you probably will get in 4-5 str 6 hits which can be pretty good ;)

Also the marauder horsemen really should have a musician to help them rally. My musician on the maurader horsemen has helped them almost every time.


A really good guide kerrill :) Cool that you took your time to write down all this and i find that i agree with you on most points

Kerill
25-07-2005, 03:58
Pelboble, you are absolutely right about the daemon prince/ exalted. Thanks, it would be a lonely thread without you! :D About the Chaos giant, ass I said its useful, I just hate the idea. Gav should be shot for the idea that the special ability of a massive mutated giant is its ability as a stuntman :p oh well, the rest of the book is good so I'll forgive him.


Anyway a few more ideas for playing Tzeentch:

You will alway be outnumbered due to the cost of your characters and high cost of your troops. Therefore you need to find ways to fight things on your terms. Units for this are:

Refuse a flank- put your flyers, some hounds/other fast cheap units on a flank and slow the enemy down by stopping marches/ sacrificing units to charges.

Obviously you can go MSU with your army- small units, mobile characters (maybe on disks). No standard bearers (or very few to prevent giving away VPs.)

Break a hole through the enemy line- concentrate on a section of the line and breakthrough. If your opponent has enemy to his front and back you are almost guaranteed a favourable charge from one of the two sides.

Flyers- to take out warmachines/ archers before flying back to charge the rear of enemy units (for +2 combaqt resolution) or as a sacrifice unit now their jon is done.

Warhounds- as sacrifice units to redirect enemy charges - let them charge your hounds. They will either break (in which case your opponent may or may not pursue but will have lost two turns (if your warhounds are turned in the right direction)- the turn of the charge, and a turn to reform their unit in the right sirection for charges- if the enemy unit has a low M value or if you are breaking units along a line they may be out of the battle completely.

Chariots- just the threat of a chariot can often give your opponent pause- no one likes a chariot charge. In fact they are jonly averagely effective on their own. A charging chaos chariot against a large ranked regiment (hw+s, Ws3 or 4, T3) will kill 3 models (chariot) 1 model (.9 in actuality- crew) and .44 models (steeds) For a grand total of 4.5 models. This means you are likely to lose the combat (+3- ranks, +1 standard +1 US). Even if you get a draw you will lose because of the musician. Still on average you will not break in the first round, and if you subsequently flee you are likely to outrrun them and then have a chance to rally. (the get charged again etc.) It buys time and causes some damage. A large ranked regiment will also cost more (unlss skaven/gobbos). Against smaller regiments (20 or so) you have a good chance of taking off a rank improving your chances of a win. Its a much more effective unit against light cavalry/ skink skirmishers and the like. Against 2+ save cavalry you will kill 1.8+ 0.54+0.2- killing 2-3 models. Perhaps winning, usually drawing or losing (musician). So chariots alone are useful more for the threat factor. Obviously if combined with other units on the charge they are deadly.

Spawn- slow, but a useful holder unit. Oh but if we could take fiends.

Fenbeasts- very useful.

Giants- Big stubborn and nasty.

Maneater- Stubborn, immune to psychology and fearsome. Little bit expensive for the points though.

Leadbelchers- a unit of 3 will cause and average of 15 S4 armour piercing hits against your opponent. Thats 5 dead (2+ save) knights or 8 dead foot troops- enough to give your opponent poause. Even a unit of 2 leadbelkchers (causing 2/3 the damage) is potentially lethal, or at the very least damaging. Remember they can stand and shoot.

Concentrate/disperse your power as needed. Just because your heros/lords start in a regiment doesnt mean they have to stay with it. Remember you can charge out of your regiment if the regiment dosnt declare a charge. If there is a particularly threatening pair of enemy cavalry regiments bearing down on you in a line, concentrate one regiment of knights and all your characters on that regiment, block the other regiment with hounds/ marauders. furies/screamers and position your other regiments for a counter charge if he takes the bait.

Concentrate your magic- decide the threat level of different units and then blast them with magic. Cause panic tests where possible.

NarCiS
25-07-2005, 16:07
Tzeentch Armies can be horrendously powerful and fluffy, they kill my elfs even sometimes :O
The thing that works best imo is to go MSU with lots of marked warrior units, then have 20 PD to blast away any flankers that come your way. I wouldnt mount the lord on anything other than a horse, because hes already so expensive and you're better off putting him in a unit.

NarC

Nicodemus
26-07-2005, 04:09
These 2 rules questions are kind of off topic, but involve Tzeentch stuff.

1. How does the imune to psycology work for a character mounted on a disc, since the majority of the unit strength is immune?
2. Does the eye of Tzeentch protect against war machines(rock lobbers and cannons), because it says they are template weapons in the rule book, but i think a huge rock would be a missle weapon?

Good guide has helped me in building a list tremendously.

User Name
26-07-2005, 05:27
The eye protects from everything

Nicodemus
26-07-2005, 05:36
but the rules in the eye state that it protects from normal and magic missles, but it doesnt say that it protects against all shooting so that is what im confused about. :confused:

NarCiS
26-07-2005, 08:38
Think of a form of shooting that's NOT a normal or a magic missile... oh right, there aren't any.

Zilverug
26-07-2005, 08:50
Indigo Fire- not terribly useful except against infantry. Against T3 hw+s infantray will kill 1/8 of the unit. Some debate about whether you can use the horrors bound spell afterwards. If you can then s3 on every model in the enemy unit would kill another 1/4 of the unit. Horrors are very unlikely to win the next combat or do much damage unless you are very lucky indeed.

Early in the game, especially useful against night goblins containing fanatics: the fanatics will pop out in a random direction, which might probably cause greenskin devastation!

Also very nice against warmachine crews.

AKBandito
26-07-2005, 09:46
Tzeench tactica????, u have got to be joking..
may as well ask tactics on how to eat a banana

Nicodemus
26-07-2005, 19:07
Think of a form of shooting that's NOT a normal or a magic missile... oh right, there aren't any.
Alright thanks for the help, any ideas on the immune to psycology for the disc but does the rider get it also because the disc is the majority of the uinit str?

Chris_Tzeentch
26-07-2005, 20:30
I have been using a MSU Cavalry Tzeentch army with a large degree of success.

Have any one had any joy with Centigors? Not bad cost, potentially decent attacks, but very vulnerable to firepower, and unreliable.

6/10

Kerill
30-07-2005, 03:20
(abashed) whoops, forgot the centigors. A very good unit IMHO, although they compete for special slots. Move through woods and 2 S5 attacks each and S5 throwing axes makes them better than the marauder cavalry. Drunken is a two edged sword, overall not a huge problem. If they have to charge because of frenzy at least they will be doing more damage and if they are stupid its likey to be just one turn and they will usually pass the test. If they got frenzied on a flank charge though...

Depends on how much you like gambling. The fact that they arent core is the biggest problem for me 7/10

Chris_Tzeentch
30-07-2005, 13:09
I have been playing a MSU Cavalry army for a while now, and on the whole I have done very well. The games I have lost are normally due to getting critical charge distances incorrect, and being left out on a limb.

My list has evolved over time quite considerably. A few things remain constant :

Tzeentch Chariots - Extra Power dice, a load of attacks (two chariots charging the same unit in unison makes for a very dead enemy).

Chosen Cavalry - Expensive as sin, but they are absolutely lethal in combat. Learn to screen them, keep them safe from firepower, and them charge away.

Chaos Hounds - Dirt cheap, extremely useful for screening. I am even toying with the idea of using 16 to 20 hounds in a unit to provide me with some ranks and outnumbering bonuses.

Staff of Change - nuff said!

Nicodemus
31-07-2005, 10:44
Any one have any opinions on chaos spawn, since they seem like the spawn can do well on your flanks.

Trunks
01-08-2005, 06:41
Think of a form of shooting that's NOT a normal or a magic missile... oh right, there aren't any.

Breath Weapon?

taer
01-08-2005, 13:06
Oh, and thrown weapons. Marauder horsemen can have either throwing axes or throwing spears. {Plus, there are all those DoW units that can shoot}

Chris_Tzeentch
02-08-2005, 12:16
I have gotten fed up with my general letting me down, so I have decided to go for it and place him on a dragon. I dropped the Dragon Ogres, who never really earned back the points spent on him.

Kerill
08-08-2005, 03:34
Well we'll move on to army specific tactics. Some of the newer armies I havent had a chance to play against, so it will be mostly theoretical so if you folks can help out there 'twould be cool. We'll start off with the empire.

Threats:

The Cheese Tank Its cheap, its very nasty and it can cause a fair bit of damage to knights. Ist immune to so many things.

Dealing with it- well you can soften iut up with your red fire/blue fire spells and with a bit of lack can do a fair bit of damage. Then you can go into combat with it. This is another reason for going great weapon for your characters where you can. A charge from chaos knights led by a great weapon wielding hero or lord can do a fair amount of damage. A giant might work too, but only if he doesnt get his head shot oiff/ blown off by a cannon- sadly likely to happen.

Take some cannons- remarkable unfluffy (even if a conversion- use the hotpot rules is ok, cannons no). This is the one time where I support the use of cannons- the ST is remarkably undercosted so feel free to take some.



Block it- use hounds and the like to waste its potential for a couple of turns, the problem is the shooting of the tank can also be good (e.g. hellblaster variant) so they aren’t going to last long, make sure to keep your units far enough apart to prevent panic spreading.

Leadbelchers- have potentially two rounds to blast the steam tank (the turn they shoot, the turn they get charged) and have a fair bit of potential.

The Gunline:

Here your army needs more in the way of fast cavalry/flyers, but its also important to remember that your characters can charge out of their units. Hounds can also be pretty useful here- just be careful of the spacing. Yellow fire is one of your few friends against cannons.

Lots of magic missiles too. Take out the shooting as fast as you can, if the rest is infantry take your time blasting it with spells before the finish. Alternatively just break through the enemy units with cavalry and mop up the rest. A cavalry rather than infantry army needed here. Monsters should be replaced with cavalry.

The Cavalry Army-

Here you need to outfight them, your cavalry are better, as are your characters, but your opponent may be able to flank unless you use marauders/hounds carefully. Take out the enemy BSB/General as soon as possible so you can break knights easier. Cavalry army with steam tank is a bugger. You may need to distract one or other part of the army (for example with flyers/ warhounds) whilst you deal with the other part.

As for their magic items- there is of course the speculum to consider which is a good reason to mount you heroes and give them a decent weapon (whether magical or mundane) so that even if you do get caught ina challeng you can still have a good chance of killing your enemy.

Kerill
19-08-2005, 04:56
One other thing that I would like to go in to a little more detail about is horrors, after some thought I've decided that under the right circumstances they can be considerably more useful as a fighting tar pit.

As is they suffer badly from their low WS and lack of a command group. If you include a character in the unit it makes it considerably better. The chalice of chaos is not a good option here (exepnsive and with a good chance of half killing your cvhampion). On the other hand an Exalted champion or aspiring champion BSB on a disk or (better in my opinion since its more fighty) a daemonic steed. A unit of 12 or 16 horrors will gain an extra rank as a result (monstrous base takes up about 4 horros places). In addition there will only be two horrors actually in the line of fire reducing the casualties your enemy can inflict. At the same time you can have a decent fighty character (and +12 for standard) an extra fear causing US4 (so 16 or twenty) making autobreak more likely.

On a side note flamers can also be useful, 2 flamers moved forward as the enemy approaches (1 behind the other can stop your enemy charging the unit (i will be killed, second will be overran into). This is in addition to any shooting damage thay can inflict.

4 Flamers can perform this duty for the horrors and an adjacent unit (for examply chosen warriors of tzeentch. Which can be very important against cavalry armies. Flamers can also be deployed as emergence flank protection. Expemsive but useful.

Sanjuro
19-08-2005, 12:53
You will alway be outnumbered due to the cost of your characters and high cost of your troops.

Wrong! I almost always outnumbered my opponents with my Tzeentch mortal army (except when I faced Skaven and O&G). You can get a model count of up to 90-100 pretty easily if you just skip out on the costly magical stuff and don't use a lord. Chaos warriors of Tzeentch are so horrendously bad that you don't really want them in your army - better to use marauders and beast herds as your infantry, and then stock up on a few heavy hitters for combined charges (chariots, flyers of all kinds, horsemen, centigors, etc).

These days I play a combined Undivided/Tzeentch mix, and I have even more troops. I'm taking 100+ models to a 2000 pts tournament this october.

But you do have a very important point there - Tzeentch is THE way to go if you want to do a uber-elite chaos army with so few models you can pretty much count them on both hands. Lord on dragon with the eye, disc flyer, giant, shaggoth, chariots, screamers... we are talking VP denial and combined charges with the heaviest hitters in the army list. Unlike Khorne, the enemy cannot lead your units around on a leash, and unlike Slaanesh you can always flee from charges that would otherwise put you in a bad situation. The eye makes the dragonrider actually viable, and even though Tzeentch magic cannot stand up to the lore of Slaanesh, it can be quite effective with the Staff in an elite army like this.

Two extremes - a 2000 pts Horde, or a 2000 pts Warband? You can go either way with Tzeentch.

Chris_Tzeentch
20-08-2005, 05:45
Sanjuro - what do you have in your 2000pt list?

Sanjuro
20-08-2005, 09:13
Herax the Bold, champion of the gods, eater of the dead, lament of the southern shores and violator of a thousand codes of conduct
Exalted Champion of Chaos and General of the Chaos war host
Mark of Chaos Undivided, Helm of Many eyes, great weapon.
/129 pts

Sil-Ur the all-seeing
Exalted Daemon of Chaos
Mark of Tzeentch, Blade of Ether
/350 pts

Arje the Black
Sorceror of Chaos
Mark of Chaos Undivided, level 2 upgrade, 2 dispel scrolls
/170 pts

CORE:

Herax's Raiders
20 Marauders
Light armour, shields, musician, standard
/155 pts

The wagon of the Gods
Chaos Chariot
/120 pts

Arje's Riders
5 Marauder Horsemen
flails, musician
/81 pts

Arje's hounds
2 units of 5 Warhounds
/60 pts

SPECIAL:

Soul-sharks of Tzeentch
4 Screamers
/132 pts

Big Ur's boys
4 Chaos Ogres
heavy armour, great weapons
/176 pts

The Beast-kin
Beastherd - 10 Gors, 10 ungors
Gors have additional hand weapons, Full Command
/145 pts

5 Centigors
shields
/95 pts

RARE:

The Fallen
25 DoW Dwarfs
Heavy armour, shields, Full Command
/255 pts

The Hell-spawned
2 Chaos spawn
/120 pts

Grand total of 1988 pts, with nothing really to spend those last 12 points on. I'd upgrade one spawn to a Firewyrm if I could find 3 pts to drop, but meh. The general goes with the marauders, the sorceror loiters around next to some infantry unit, preventing him from getting shot.

EDIT: I see now that I also only have 99 models in this army. My bad. In another draft I had some more beastmen, which brought me almost up to 120, but I figured I wanted to show off my ogre models (more about them later), and I also needed the punch of a couple of S6 attacks.

The main idea is to win via combined charges. I have three ranked units (the beastmen rank up with a total rank bonus of +2 maximum, so they are semi-ranked) and hopefully lots of stuff to add kills to the static CR: the Exalted daemon, Chariot, screamers, horsemen, centigors, even the spawn in a pinch. The ogres will just look to smash their way through some weaker unit and they will also serve as something of a curiosity. They are namely from the old "C"-series of ogres (called Giant Ogres, though they are much smaller than the ogres of today) from the mid-80's. I even have the original Chaos Ogre in that unit. Here is a link: http://www.solegends.com/citc/c23ogres.htm

Well, that's all in theory. I shall have to test the list out.

What I was going for was to avoid some of the more common Chaos units that everyone hates to face (i.e warriors, knights and chosen of any kind). This army also looks extremely Chaotic, with units rangeing wildly in appearance. All my three main infantry units look and behave completely different, for example.

And I also wanted to create a link to Chaos of past editions (namely 3rd edition and the Realms of Chaos hardback books), back when Chaos was really mixed and really very random. The 'Chaos Dwarves' are part of that nostalgia: they are not the big-hat ones, but rather resemble the original Chaos Dwarves, which were just Dwarves that had fallen to the Chaos gods. They looked somewhat like small chaos warriors. The models I use are just converted plastic Dwarf warriors, but with a couple of subtle conversions and the right paintjob, they can look really Chaosy. I'd love to get my hands on the old Chaos Dwarf models, though they cost a mint.

What's more: I love the old randomness and unreliability that Chaos used to have. In this army, there are lots of tests I have to pass before I can start moving my models. There is a stupidity test on my general, the drunken test on the centigors, the unruly test on the beast herd and there are also two random movements from the spawns. I find this adds a bit of a Chaotic 'feel' to actually playing the army. You feel like you are really struggling to control this awesome force, that threatens to destroy you as well if you lose control of it.

der_lex
22-08-2005, 22:52
Can't see the necessity of having a big army myself.
My 2500 point Tzeentch army has only 50 or so models in it, but has only been defeated once so for, scoring a massacre on just about every win.

Granted, I haven't fought any horde-style armies with them yet, but I'm sure they'll at least put of a decent fight against that as well.

The idea of my army is pretty simple...two large blocks of 15 warriors each with the BSB and an exalted champ in them hold the centre (hopefilly abusing terrain pieces to deny my opponent possible flanking attacks). On one flank, a unit of 5 Screamers go for the war machines/spellcasters, with a unit of chosen knights and an exalted champ right behind them to flank the enemy and/or slow their advance. The other flank is guarded by my trusty Hellcannon (everyone I play against seems to be too afraid of the thing to charge it). My last unit is my Lord on a disc with the staff of change/eye combo, zipping around and zapping where needed.

I basically use dwarf tactics with this army...stay on the defensive and let your opponent come to you while I blast him with magic and Hellcannon shots. When he comes close enough, my army surges forward...even if they fail their charge they can get a round of magic blasting in, which is one of the things I love about Tzeentch. It's also usually very unsettling for your opponent to play against a defensive Chaos army...they're usually used to frenzied Khornites running forward mindlessly.
The army has 16 power dice, which is usually enough for me to cast what I want (if I brought any more I'd be accused of cheesiness). The Staff of Change really helps here of course.

Weak points of the army are the risk of being flanked, and possible hellcannon misbehavior (it hasn't done that thus far, thank Tzeentch...only time it charged it went straight into a Lizzy cold one unit who wanted to flank me :skull: )
I've been considering getting two chariots to use instead of the cannon, but since I mostly play against dwarves it seems like a bad tradeoff...

One more note I'd like to make is that I don't understand why people are so negative about Chaos warriors. they've performed great for me in combat thus far. I especially love the initiative 5, which usually makes sure they can hit their enemy first in a combat round, which combined with their 5 WS/STR (I usually give them halberds) usually doesn't leave many enemies to hit you back, especially if there's a character 'helping out'. Giving them shields has kept them alive from missile fire so far. (that and concentrating magic and cannon blasts on shooting units, or tempting opponents to shoot at my Lord)

Anyway, I guess everyone simply has different playing styles...which is probably the coolest thing about Chaos...it is flexible enough to accomodate them all.

I'd like to end with a small question (which might be better in a separate thread, but oh well): what's the coolest thing you've ever done with your Tzeench army? My personal fave happeed in my last battle against the dwarves: my enemy had a unit of 20 Hammerers and a Lord. First it gets hit by a stray hellcannon blast, which killed 9 of them. Then my Lord blasts out his Big magic Missile, and rolls a whopping 12 STR 7 hits, killing the rest of the unit and wounding the lord :skull:
Life is good when Tzeentch smiles upon you...

Sanjuro
23-08-2005, 14:11
I dunno about the coolest thing I've done, but I've got another hammerer-related topic. I cast Green Fire (the attack yourself spell) with irresistable force on a unit of 19 hammerers and a dwarven thane. After the hammerers were done with their attacks, 15 of them were dead. I kid you not, 15 of them croaked. 4+ to hit, 2+ to kill. I always let my opponent roll the dice for that spell, and boy did he roll well...

They passed their panic test, but were later charged by a few DoW frenzied norse marauders with great weapons, who killed the remaining hammerers and left the thane with his **** hanging out.

And the necessity of having a big army? It's the pure psychological impact on your opponent that does it for me. :D Nothing like watching them go 'what the... you are playing chaos! You aren't supposed to outnumber me!'

I also jam my army full of throwaway units so I never have to worry about sacrificing a unit in order to gain a better position. Of course, going the all elite route is fun too, and I frequently do that as well. No hellcannon for me though, I usually load up on fast and tough units and try to smash straight through. A bit old school, but then again, I'm all about old school. :cool:

On the whole, though, I'd say that Tzeentch magic has never really done that much for me, even when I loaded up on 13-14 power dice and a staff of change. Sure, it has won me the occasional game, but it's never crucial to my battle plan (which I feel it should be with Tzeentch, or at least on par with how important Magic is for Undead). One thing that I never figured out was why Lords Of Change (the greater daemons, the birdies) don't get +1 to casting spells. I just cannot understand what possible justification there could be.

Crube
23-08-2005, 14:19
And of course, the number one tactic with Tzeentch mortals, after Carnage is...


















Never listen to a damn thing Crube has to say, cos if you do, Tzeentch will have a word with the dice Gods and you will up a certain creek, without a certain implement...

axxizzer
05-09-2005, 06:05
I am starting a Tzeentch army, and this thread has given me great advice and many Ideas on how to own all my friends.

But as I purchased my army bits, and posted future lists on other forums, people call me cheesy and beardy and whatever dumb label they want to use.

Truth be told, I am just making the most Money-efficient army I can! That means A lord withs staff, eye, and disk, 2 heroes on disks, an 8-strong unit of Screamers(mebe)
Chariots, Spawn, and Chosen knights

PEOPLE SAY ITS CHEESY

which doesnt make any damn sense, this list should DIE to almost anything.


But I am intrigued at the possibilty of adding Dogs of war CANNONS
This really makes me excited now! Just wait until they see 2 spawn and A FREAKING CANNON. Jeez

But anyway, great thread, and I just wanna say that using 2 chariots together to attack units together is a GREAT strategy, and I used it to excellent effect in my first game.

PS: Where do you buy a Dogs of War cannon? There is no section for it on the online store....Do I just convert it from an Empire or Dwarf Cannon?

Thanks!

Chris_Tzeentch
05-09-2005, 20:38
I am getting rid of a lot of Tzeentch related stuff, be sure to check out my auctions

http://search.ebay.co.uk/_W0QQsassZchrisQ5fnurgle

Panzer MkIV
06-09-2005, 08:11
Great thread guys. Keep it up! As a new follower this has been very usefull to me.

I have a question: what is a viable 1000pts Mortal Tzeentch list that doesn't only rely on cavalry to do it's work? (i.e with an infantry core and no Beasts)
It's difficult to come up with a good list as it is impossible to take more than 1 character and he already costs 150pts minimum before upgrades and additional Marks from chaos warriors :)

der_lex
07-09-2005, 17:15
I already mentioned this before on this thread, but I don't think all-Tzeentch armies are viable under 2000 points (and ideally you should be playing 2500+).

The best thing you can do is play undivided and just give your hero the mark of tzeentch...that way you have spellcasting and nasty hittyness combined in one character slot.

And pray for Orange Fire. Possibly the best spell on the Tzeentch list anyway...

Sanjuro
07-09-2005, 22:35
Well, in 1000 pts, there shouldn't be any units that can take marks anyway (apart from characters), so it's gonna be real hard to try and play a Tzeentch army at that level.

Warriors and knights belong at the 2000 pts level (and warriors possibly even at even higher pts). Chariots can fit in in a 1000 pts army, but at that points level, they get really cheesy since it is hard for an enemy to deal with two or more T5 W4 chariot with a 3+ armour save. I'd only take a single chariot for this reason - you will want your opponents to want to play you again. The only ones who'd WANT you to field lots of chariots are probably undead and slayers.

In 1000 pts, just go for a bunch of marauders and horsemen, and a chariot for some punch. Squeeze in a unit of screamers if you can, and a character to lead the motley crew. Some hounds for bait, and possibly a small beast herd (think 5 gors and 5 ungors with no command save perhaps a musician) for screening duty - they are also useful for dealing with enemy skirmishers.

So what will you have? You will have a fighty character and a lv 2 mage (albeit in a single model), 5 power dice and 3 dispel dice to play around with (if you have a marked chariot), some warm bodies in the shape of 4+ save marauders (no units smaller than 20), some fast flankers in the horsemen and a chariot to add that extra little punch. Screamers just because they are damn good and can mess up an enemy battleplan something good by darting behind his lines and eating up weaker units like war machines or mages. Hounds and beastmen for baiting and screening, and dealing with enemy skirmishers (screamers can also function in that role).

This way you can keep a nice Tzeentch theme all round and I think you will be able to fit all of that in. Let's see:

Tzeentch exalted: let's face it, he's gonna be around 200 pts.

24 marauders with full command: 193 pts.

5 horsemen with flails and musician: 81 pts.

Chariot of tzeentch: 140 pts.

4 screamers: 132 pts.

10 beastmen (5/5): 55 pts.

5 hounds: 30 pts.

That's about 840 pts. Well, well, well. 150-160 pts to do as you please with. If it were me, I'd add another 20-strong marauder unit (but then, I am known as the Chaos Horde player), but you could just as easily toss in another hitty support unit, like, say, 4 ogres. As a matter of fact, 4 ogres sound pretty cool, I would probably do that.

Kerill
18-11-2005, 14:28
Sorry disappeared off the face of the warhammer world for a while. This reply is very late but:

Axizzer

Unless you were joking, adding those DOW cannons with the rest of the army is going to lead to some unhappy opponents.

Chaos are in fact the best army to collect cheaply partly because of the points cost and partly because of the fact that they are SO easy to convert. A conversion that goes terribly wrong becomes a spawn :-)

For the cost of two pounds for some putty (milliput), green stuff and a few plastics I have managed to make (so far) 3 spawn and a unit of Chosen Knights mounted on giant predatory birds. Anything you find from any army thats cheap can be turned to chaos with just a little bit of thought. Just leave the spawn to last- a few of your failures will be heading towards spawnhood anyway

ebolatheripe
21-11-2005, 09:48
Question. Has anyone out there tried using four spawn and a small unit or two, of Horrors to hold the center or refused flank in a fast mounted Tzeenchian army? I would think the horrors could magic anyone who got near and charge the flanks of units the spawn where holding up. Along with the mobility of the rest of the army I thought this would be a good combo., thow this is just speculation. If you haven't used it does it sound good?:)

Archapone
21-11-2005, 17:49
Wrong! I almost always outnumbered my opponents with my Tzeentch mortal army (except when I faced Skaven and O&G). You can get a model count of up to 90-100 pretty easily if you just skip out on the costly magical stuff and don't use a lord.



WRONG WRONG WRONG
Tzeetnch without a lord? skip the costly magical stuff in a Tzeentch army?
Why do you use Tzeetnch Mark then??

Static Breed
22-11-2005, 12:24
WRONG WRONG WRONG
Tzeetnch without a lord? skip the costly magical stuff in a Tzeentch army?
Why do you use Tzeetnch Mark then??

No, not wrong. Just a different playing style. And one that can be quite effective with a good amount of magic and power dce and still the numbers to take things out in combat, or even swarm them...:cool:

Kerill
22-11-2005, 18:32
Well it seems that the MSU Tzeentch is still the most popular version out there. One other thing that I think might work with would be to go for a small infantry based army. Refuse one flank. Have a hellcannon/spawn/fenbeasts on one or both sides. Maybe use the banner of the gods. Take a mixture of troops for ranks and combat side by side, a character on a disk to move forward to use magic.

Could even use Archaons horde for this although then you would miss out on some options (but you could then get a couple of units of Chosen Halberdiers of Tzeentch with shields). Personally I am tempted with this army together with a dark emissary in order to cause some real magical punishment to the ever more popular MSU armies that are being taken.

Basically you are playing like a dwarf but with magic replacing shooting and with much harder combat troops. At the same time though, you don't have war machines for easy VPs and you have the option to move (at least faster than dwarves) if you wish.

ebolatheripe
22-11-2005, 23:18
Come on guys let me know something. If you think it's stupid and will never work that's OK. I just need some feedback:

Question. Has anyone out there tried using four spawn and a small unit or two, of Horrors to hold the center or refused flank in a fast mounted Tzeenchian army? I would think the horrors could magic anyone who got near and charge the flanks of units the spawn where holding up. Along with the mobility of the rest of the army I thought this would be a good combo., thow this is just speculation. If you haven't used it does it sound good?

Kerill
23-11-2005, 03:53
I would say using horrors to refuse a flank is a bad idea. Their magic is either shortranged or not powerful enough. Also they will disintegrate quite quickly if trying to hold a flank. There is no way your enemy will choose to charge the 60 point spawn when there is a big VP **** poor in combat unit of horrors right next door.

Spawn might be better but they are a little slow. I would recommend throwing a unit or two of hounds into the mix to slow the enemy down earlier. If they charge the hounds they will then also be charging into the teeth of the spawn.

Latro
23-11-2005, 07:36
From experience I can say that a line of multiple Spawn are very able to lock down a flank or the centre of the battle-field. They won't win any combats, but they will stick around and are very handy for taking out any characters hiding in those units.

- Does a breath attack work when in combat? If so, even better.

- Can Horrors cast their spells into combat? If so, even better.

Just keep your soft squishy Horrors behind the Spawn and all will be well.

:cool:

Kerill
23-11-2005, 09:41
Well to try to get things back on some kind of logical track I would like to go carry on examining Tzeentch tactics and problems against other armies on an individual basis. We've done empire so we'll go on to another human army- bretonnia. One of the few armies that can go to to toe with us in close combat and also get quite a few things cheaper. Anyone got anything constructive on fighting against bretonnians before I add my two cents.

Kerill
23-11-2005, 09:45
Incidentally to add to the discussion of spawn above, they (and even better, fenbeasts) can be useful when placed behind other units. This can serve either as a solid second line when fighting powerful opponents to prevent you opponent catching you (while miring the enemy down hopefully long enough for you to regroup). Alternatively they can be used with hounds as a deliberate tarpit- annoy your opponent with hounds blocking his movement. If the charge, glee past the spawn.

Kerill
24-11-2005, 07:16
Well I guess I'l soldier on alone then.

Bretonnians have several large advantages when playing against Tzeentch:

Ward saves everywhere and since a lot of Chaos stuff is S5 the ward save will be 5+.
Bretonnian damsels will give the more important knight blocks magic resistance and have an item to give an extra dispel die
Holy icon gives MR3
Pegasus Knights are insanely good.
Bret's have an equivalent to Chosen Knights in the Grail Knights
Lots and lots of knights with a rank bonus!
Bretonnian knights have a better charge range than their chaos equivalents
Bretonnian lords are very powerful on the charge and mounted on pegasi are almost guranteed to get a charge in.

This means that bretonnians can beat chaos in h-t-h combat sometimes and because their units are cheaper (even more so by getting free champions for every unit) it means they will outnumber chaos as well. They also have an above average resistance to magic.

There seem to be three popular ways of playing brets:

Shooter heavy with knights to countercharge.
This is probably the easiest army to play against. Heavily armoured chaos is largely impervious to low level shooting so you can take your time and use magic to decimate units before rolling your opponent over.

Knight Heavy with lots and lots of units of Knight errants

Against this army I would initially stay in your own half, allowing the bretonnians to come to you and get the best out of your magic before combat begins. You have one important unit archetype that bretonnians don't have- chariots. A chariot charge combined with furies (to stop them from fleeing) should wreck a unit of Knights. Go for mainly knights and chariots, some marauder cavalry to threaten flanks and warhounds to block and redirect charges. An exalted champion/Chaos lord can charge out from surrounding knights if need be to demolish a unit of knights with 9 S7 (great weapon) hits. One or two spawn behind your line in case things go pear shaped might be worth a look in too. Maybe a beastherd for a couple of ranks as well. Remember to keep chariots covered by something in the earlier game so if a bretonnian lord on a pegasus charges them you can countercharge. If you can sqeeze in a BSB it may well be a good idea.

Bretonnian royal air force

The important thing against the RAf is to make sure you can always cover yourself on the flanks. You may want to deploy in a diagonal line so you have the board edge to your flanks against this army and then let lose with magic until they arrive. a Spawn on the flanks and a beastherd in reserve (for that 360 degree charge) should help keep your rear safe. Even in a mortal force you can take a tzeentch beastlord, with armour of damnation, gore tooth, great weapon and gaze of the gods he is quite a monster in combat, and may be something your opponent will not have expected. You could go for exalted daemons/disk riders and try to outfly them and your fear will give you an edge but I think thats a more risky proposition.

All in all, despite not having played them I have quite a lot of respect for the h-t-h ability of the bretonnian army. as a result against the last 2 I have opted for a more defensive approach. You will have 2, quite possibly three turns of magic to blast at the enemy before they get there. Use this to take away ranks, destroy mounted squires and hurt support units of knights.

If you have hounds/furies or the like you can send them forward early in a wide circle to further hamper bretonnian movement and maybe net a 4th magic phase before combat begins.

Kerill
24-11-2005, 07:30
In addition a shaman with beasts lore may be useful against bretonnia

darkin
29-11-2005, 21:19
What do you think of this tzeentch 2000pt list?

1 mortal lord, biting blade shield great weapon riding disc, mark of tzeentch

3 exalted champions, mark of tzeentch, shield, beserker swords, all on discs

2 units of 4 chaos knights, mark of tzeentch

5 chaos marauders, swords+shields

11 horrors+4 flamers

2 firwyrms of tzeentch