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Rainbow
21-07-2005, 20:19
This question is spesifically about characters joining a unit..

Can a mounted model join a infantry unit and still be protected from shooting like he was a part of the unit? I've time and time again seen a DE player place his Highborn on a cold one mount join a DE spears regiment.

According to the player it's perfectly legal, and he's protected just as he was on foot.

Right, or wrong? Or is there a third alternative?

Zeb
21-07-2005, 20:54
He isn't protected, he has to be on the same basesize as the unit he has joined to be protected. He could possibly be on a smaller base size and still be protected, but I'm not sure about that.

But it is legal to join that way.

Rainbow
21-07-2005, 22:13
The highborn was mounted as said, so he was on a cold one cavalary base...

So it is legal.. Fair enough, is he protected? That's an important question as well...

Brother Frog
21-07-2005, 22:46
So it is legal.. Fair enough, is he protected? That's an important question as well...


No! As Zeb said, a mounted character has to be accompanied by mounted troops (ie, cavalry) to benefit from "Look out Sir!" rolls.

Damage
22-07-2005, 02:41
No! As Zeb said, a mounted character has to be accompanied by mounted troops (ie, cavalry) to benefit from "Look out Sir!" rolls.

True. But if there's a unit of 5 Cold Ones (or other Cav) within 5", and the character's not the closest target, then the character can't be targeted by shooting, regardless of the fact that he's on a Cold One with an infantry regiment. It won't help much against templates, of course!

Rainbow, this is a perfectly legal tactic - it's a common Empire move, actually, and part of TVI's tactica. Usually you give your mounted character a 4+ ward save, and put him in with a good-sized infantry regiment - you want the enemy to waste his shooting on your rock-hard character, rather than the troops. But unless there's a unit of similar-sized friendly models within 5" of the character, your DE player has been playing it wrong. Show him p97-100 of the BRB, especially the top left of p98.

- David.

Major Defense
22-07-2005, 13:27
True. But if there's a unit of 5 Cold Ones (or other Cav) within 5", and the character's not the closest target, then the character can't be targeted by shooting, regardless of the fact that he's on a Cold One with an infantry regiment. It won't help much against templates, of course!

Rainbow, this is a perfectly legal tactic - it's a common Empire move, actually, and part of TVI's tactica. Usually you give your mounted character a 4+ ward save, and put him in with a good-sized infantry regiment - you want the enemy to waste his shooting on your rock-hard character, rather than the troops. But unless there's a unit of similar-sized friendly models within 5" of the character, your DE player has been playing it wrong. Show him p97-100 of the BRB, especially the top left of p98.

- David.

Sorry to bully but you and this supposed tactica are wrong. The rule you point to in the book is protection for single models. When that character is inside an infantry unit he cannot benefit from cover of cavalry units because he is not an "INDEPENDENT CHARACTER" as the section of rules indicates.

Keep in mind, everyone, that an independent character can only take shooting and magic missile cover when within 5" of a unit of 5 or more (ranked or skirmishing) models of the same or larger size and only if the unit is a closer target to the shooters than the character. I nailed a ratling gun the other day when my friend forgot this detail of the rule.

Baindread
22-07-2005, 23:14
Sorry to bully but you and this supposed tactica are wrong. The rule you point to in the book is protection for single models. When that character is inside an infantry unit he cannot benefit from cover of cavalry units because he is not an "INDEPENDENT CHARACTER" as the section of rules indicates.

Keep in mind, everyone, that an independent character can only take shooting and magic missile cover when within 5" of a unit of 5 or more (ranked or skirmishing) models of the same or larger size and only if the unit is a closer target to the shooters than the character. I nailed a ratling gun the other day when my friend forgot this detail of the rule.


I think you misunderstood. What he means is that you put a mounted character with good protection in a unit you don't want to get shot. The enemy will then think the player has made a mistake and will then shoot everything he has at him, thus wasting a lot of power trying to take out a character when he perhaps could have gotten far more succes shooting at the unit.

Bortus
23-07-2005, 06:53
Rainbow here's a direct quote from the Warhammer rule book page 98:

"If a character is substantially larger than the troops he is with or near to, then he can be picked out as a target regardless of the rules just given(reffering to page 97 in the section called Proximity to Friendly Troops). If a character rides a horse then he will stand out amongst a unit of infantry, if he rides a dragon or is mounted in a chariot he will be an obvious target amongst a unit of cavalry, and so on".

There seems to be some confliction between posters here as to what the meaning of your question was so hopefully I got it right. Take care all!

Rainbow
30-07-2005, 22:32
Rainbow here's a direct quote from the Warhammer rule book page 98:

"If a character is substantially larger than the troops he is with or near to, then he can be picked out as a target regardless of the rules just given(reffering to page 97 in the section called Proximity to Friendly Troops). If a character rides a horse then he will stand out amongst a unit of infantry, if he rides a dragon or is mounted in a chariot he will be an obvious target amongst a unit of cavalry, and so on".

There seems to be some confliction between posters here as to what the meaning of your question was so hopefully I got it right. Take care all!

You did get it right, thank you for your clearifications, all of you...

Tarax
31-07-2005, 13:23
On a similar subject:

Do Bretonnian characters on Pegasi benefit from 'cover' ('Look out, sir', targeting) when inside or within 5" of a unit of Pegasus Knights?
Same goes for Wood Elves on Great Eagles and Warhawk Riders. Probably more examples.

My point is that they have the same base size and neither is a Large Target.

Brother Frog
31-07-2005, 18:12
The Pegasi mounted character certainly does as he's riding the same size monster (or rather, base size) as the unit he is with.

I would have to locate my Welvis book to confirm the eagle question.

Griefbringer
31-07-2005, 18:57
Just notice that as the rules are, the pegasus riding character cannot actually join a unit of pegasus knights.

Brother Frog
31-07-2005, 19:12
Ah yes, you are correct. I had forgotten that the Royal Pegasi are different to the ones ridden by the Pegasus Knights. The last paragraph on page 106 of the WFB rulebook book explains all about characters and flying units.

Yanos
01-08-2005, 08:41
Characters can never join units of flyers, correct? :eyebrows:

On the other hand, going on base size, an independant Pegasus/Eagle-mounted character should still be able to take advantage of the 5" rule when around Pegasus/Warhawk units. The only thing is those'd have to be verrrrry expensive units to have the requisite 5 models to shield the character. And can you even have 5 models in a Pegasus Knight unit?? :confused:

Crazy Harborc
01-08-2005, 23:44
I do believe you can have 5 in a unit. I used five in a unit in one of the first Bret. armies I pushed after the 6th Ed. armybook came out.

Brother Frog
02-08-2005, 08:43
And can you even have 5 models in a Pegasus Knight unit?? :confused:

Yes. You can have between 3 and 10 in a unit.

Crazy Harborc
02-08-2005, 18:31
Welllll, "some" people may/can have ten! Um, come to think of it, I AM one of those somes!! I gotta admit, I haven't done is yet. I know just the opponent too spring those turkeys on :evilgrin:

Tarax
05-08-2005, 11:52
Yeah, sorry, I forgot about characters not able to join Flying Units.

But thanks to pick up on the 'within 5" '-rule.

Festus
05-08-2005, 12:59
Hi

To pull it all together:

If a character is on his own, he can be shot at as any other unit, provided he is NOT within 5" of one of his own units of the SAME size and consisting of at least 5 models.

If a character is in a unit, he can be shot at if the unit he is in consists of SMALLER models, irrespective of other units of the same size in the vincinity.

Greetings
Festus

Atrahasis
05-08-2005, 13:10
If a character is on his own, he can be shot at as any other unit, provided he is NOT within 5" of one of his own units of the SAME size and consisting of at least 5 models.Or is the closest target.

Festus
05-08-2005, 19:03
Hi

Cheers mate, you are of course right, I forgot this one :(

Greetings
Festus

Lady's Champion
05-08-2005, 20:11
So if a Pegasus mounted Bretonnian is within 5" of a Pegasus Knight unit, can he be targeted? (ie. not in the unit)

Festus
05-08-2005, 20:27
Hi

Yes, of course he can, as he is riding a monster whereas the Unit is a unit of *flying cavalry*.
(I know that there are those who define size by base size, which seems to be quite a good *base*line to follow, but it surely breaks down at some points: A DE Pegasus hiding beside a few Ogres, etc.)

Basically it is very rare for ridden monsters to get any protection from shooting whatsoever.

Greetings
Festus

Lady's Champion
05-08-2005, 20:30
So if it is so rare how come a lord on pegasus can?

Festus
05-08-2005, 20:40
Hi

Please reread: It is rare for him to get protection, therefore he can be targeted.

Festus