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Essia
22-07-2005, 06:40
Although magic is a large part of the game, it is so often abused to the point where I often see players turning up with 10+ power dices and tries to win the game pretty much purely by magic.

If I use 2 scroll caddies so that I have 4 dispell scrolls as well as 4 dispell dices per turn, would that be enough to shut down most magehammer armies? I'm hoping by playing this a few times with my local gamers, they'd get the point and get back to planning to win through some more tactical thinking rather than "hey I can throw a bucket of power dices!"

Or is it more likely they will refuse to play me and continue on their mage lovin' ways?

feintstar
22-07-2005, 07:08
They won't refuse to play you. And if you've got a couple of Good mage hunters in there, You'll probably win the game in spite of their magic supremacy. It might take them a while, but they'll eventually start bringing some different lists.

However, You might want to see if you can't bring even more magical defence than even that, if you really want to shut them down. Ideally, you'd be looking at Dwarves with Lotsa Runesmiths and the rune of balance. Or a Grimgor Hardboyz List with 3 Black Orc heroes, Idol of Gork with a Scroll Caddy, thus grabbing you 6 Dispell Dice.

Or Khornate Lists would do a good Job too, for the same reasons as above.

Riddy
22-07-2005, 07:27
Skink Priest+Cube of Darkness+Mk of Old Ones=Crying Tzeench player

Yes, i actually made him cry. Now if i knew what army you use i could tell you the best way to shut down magic with it.

Essia
22-07-2005, 08:17
I play Orcs and goblins, so I get cheap shamans :)

Hannibal
22-07-2005, 08:47
4 dispel dice and 4 dispel scrolls only is enough if you fulfill one of these points:
- you have to survive just one to two rounds of magic, meaning you´re playing a cav. army
- you still have some mage hunting stuff
- your opponent gets some miscasts
- you´re playing HE. In this case you have drain magic and magic is flickle spells which are really good to caonter magic.

Hannibal

Falcon
22-07-2005, 10:46
I always feel sorry for the poor kid if you start assasinating, sniping and butchering his mages and he sees all his expensive models being lost

Reinnon
22-07-2005, 13:18
i think this magic hatred is a bit stupid really.

i want to play a magic heavy army....i like the idea of having plenty of power dice- thus i play a tzeentch deamon legion.

its not as bad as some armies and as some point out a heavily magic army isn't always the best idea, i can except that people will take magic defence....i would.

however all this quote really makes me wonder (don't mean to insult ya or anything):


Although magic is a large part of the game, it is so often abused to the point where I often see players turning up with 10+ power dices and tries to win the game pretty much purely by magic.


is that any different from say playing a bret army and winning pretty much purely by close combat? No, i don't think it is.

Bar maybe the empire and orcs (well, with goblins in em), most armies are better at one thing then the other, for example:

1) lothern sea guard: a very shooty based army, would you say that hes abusing the by trying to win pretty much purely by shooting? He/she has no choice but to shoot as its the main strength of the list.

same with magic heavy armies, its not abusing the rules as some people point out a magic heavy army can be shut down quite easily and some armies (undead for example) are very difficult to play without having some magic presence.

I play tzeentch, you gotta like magic to play tzeentch as the whole army is geared towards it, am i abusing the idea of magic by playing an army that focuses on throwing out a bucket load of spells (with random effects 90% of the time) and bound spells? If i am it isn't my fault but the fault of the army designer who was foolish enough to make the army of the God of magic too magic based.

in other words, going magic heavy is the same as going for an army geared for close combat or shooting (for example dwarfs), and like these armies you gotta have magic defence, in the same way you wouldn't just take halflings in a DoW army and then complain that a khorne army wipes the floor with your army when it gets into combat, is khorne overpowered in this situation?

No, you just lacked the means to fight him off with your army.

just my 2 cents

KillbotFactory
22-07-2005, 17:26
In response to the orginial topic, that magic defense will by no means protect you for the game. What that magic defense will do for you is protect you for maybe 2 turns when you really need it. Depending on your style of army this may be enough, but usually you will need to go and take out the mages to get a good win against them.

branchwrath
22-07-2005, 18:14
I believe in magic heavy armies being fun, but I know they're not for everyone (cough cough, Dwarves)

I personally, when I know I might be facing magic heavy armies, go for the increase in Dispell Dice over Scrolls, it's more fun that way. As nothing hurts more then when you've used up all your D Dice and Scrolls and your opponent still has like 6 P Dice.

A good example of this is my Southland Lizardmen list I'm doing, 1000 points, 1 level one shaman with NO scrolls, but thanks to three Spawnings of Tepok, I have 6 Dispell dice.

Just my opinion...

Selsaral
22-07-2005, 18:53
Well Reinnon said what I wanted to say. But to add a bit more:

Magic is currently ruling my gaming group too. Spell-heavy armies almost always defeat non-spell heavy armies.

But I really think the two types of armies playing have a lot to do with it. For example against a Tzeentch army, if you don't have good spell defense you'll take a bunch of magic missile and other generic-type damage spells. Not too bad really, especially if you play a horde army. But against Slannesh spells, failing to dispell will surely lose the game. Titillating Delusions and Enrapturing Spasms are game-winning spells that must be avoided at all costs. Also some armies have trouble casting into melee and therefore are significantly weaker spell-wise as the game progresses (like tzeentch).

So in conclusion, IMHO, your 4 dispell scroll/4 dispel dice will be adequate against certain armies. The points you'd be saving by buying troops instead of casters can overcome a fair amount. But against others, you'll be in serious trouble.

As for changing people's minds, good luck. Our group has currently been scheduling no-magic battles just to get us into different territory, cause we can't find any other way to get us to play magic-moderate or weak armies.

NarCiS
22-07-2005, 19:08
This game is so wonderfully balanced that no experienced player will cry about magic heavy lists (the only lists worth crying about is a SAD skaven army) because it is ll perfectly counterable. So he has 14 power dice? GREAT! i say.
That gives him a lot less points unit wise, thus giving my mage hunters a break. Think about your army and then consider which units are useable as mage-hunters. I go to tournaments with 5 DD and 2 scrolls, which is enough for any opponent.

It is kind of like a scale, if you have a balanced army, the sides will be even. If you have a magic or shooty heavy army, you won't have a lot of points for combat units. The mage-hunter units in a balanced army will then kill 3x their points value worth of mages, maybe at the expense of some RnF, but so be it, they are more effective against other opponents, this is what tournament lists are all about.

And yes, I know I suck at explaining, but I hope you all got some of that :p

Thx
Narc

EvC
22-07-2005, 19:35
Well magic seems to be so broken with regards to orcs and goblins. My last opponent had two mages, not costing that many points really, and he had like 10 power dice just because there was the odd scrap going on nearby. And a bound item for 25 points (At least with the VC bound spells there's a chance they might run out- not so for the O&G ones). It was ridiculous!

PelsBoble
22-07-2005, 20:08
But Orcs and goblin do have a VERY nasty miscast table. So you need a bit of luck (or stock up on anti miscast items that let you reroll one dice etc)

bored1
23-07-2005, 00:47
-to say it doesn't tactical skill to use the magic phase well is misleading. I could (and I do) just as easily say that you (meaning the whining opponent) lack the tactical ability to design a list and properly utilize magic defense in all its forms (here's a hint: it's not only in the magic phase!)

-regarding 4 dice and 4 scrolls. That's what I bring w/ my RAF. I'm across the board by turn 3 at the latest. My army is 80% 2+ saves. If you have these kinds of mitigating factors, then yes, you should stand a shot against the worst magic heavy lists. If not....well you may still have some trouble.

-all that said, magic in it's current incarnation is broken. What lists do well at GT's? Vampires (typically necro), Tzeentch Daemons, Skaven, Lizardmen, and Brets (typically RAF). Out of those 5, I'd say exactly one of those is "magic-light" (RAF). Even lizardmen who win the game through shooting, avoidance, and late game finishes puts a lot of relative points into mages and magic defense. When most of the top tier competitive armies focus in a particular area, and they are also those that could be considered exceptionally strong in that area, you get the feeling that the one area may not be balanced with others in the game. Even more so, the fact that mid-level magic simply doesn't work for most players/armies in a competitive environment hints at some pretty serious issues. Magic at low levels is weak, and at high levels egregiously powerful.

User Name
23-07-2005, 04:04
Foe the points it costs to go magic heavy I can see why people want it to be so destructive, as mages are rather easy to kill in close combat. The only major peoblem is that mid levels of magic are rather useless as the points spend while not redicolous are still high enough to change what troops can be taken and thus how good your army is in CC.

Something should be done to increase mid levle of maigc woudl be nice but would make heavy magic armies more powerful.

Most armies have ways of dealing with mages so the problem really isnt that bad. The magic system isnt so much broken as just needs a little tweek, perhaps adding to the number of PD and DD produced my each mage.

feintstar
23-07-2005, 10:38
No, reduce the amount of PD created by each mage, then randomise the amount of PD you get BASE per turn.

(i.e. D3 +1/D3 instead of 2)

And rather than extra PD determined by wizard level, make it the same as dispell dice, or else make it level -1.

Zeb
23-07-2005, 12:08
Take away the PD Batteries... Those magicians that are only there to give the level 4 more PD, I hate it when a guy turns up with two or three spellcasters but there is only one that uses the dice...
That is the only thing I think needs to be fixed.

And I agree with NarCiS concerning the rest of the stuff.

Darmort
23-07-2005, 15:20
Play a fast army, like Dark Elves, full of Dark Riders, Manticore's, Dark Pegasus's, Hydra's and Chariots... then just watch him cry, just have a pair of Scroll Caddies and a Seal of Ghrond, and a Noble on Dark Pegasus with Deathmask.

Like this;

Beastmaster, Seal of Ghrond, SDC, Lance, LA, Manticore.
Noble, Deathmask, Pesasus, Lance, HA, Shield, SDC, RXB.
2 Sorceresses with 2 Dispell Scrolls each.
4 Chariots
2 Hydras
as many Dark Rider units as possible. Give them RXBs.
That'll change their Magic Heavy Opinions. :p



Or just play Khorne with lots of Flesh Hounds, and 15*3 Chaos Warriors with Shields (Halberds if Chosen). Always works, ;)

fubukii
23-07-2005, 17:23
bleh so much hate towards magic :(

Well the army i play is supposed to be a very magic heavy army ( i play a necromancer VC army) I enjy hording ppl with tons of summoned mobs. But i do not play with this list all the time as i know to alot of people it can be "annoying" to say the least. This is why i also run a Vampire based list with only 6 levels of magic 8pd and 5dd. Compared to my 13-14pp and 8-9 dd

NarCiS
23-07-2005, 19:55
@fubukii : I personally have no problems with a Necromancer VC army, it's very fluffy and usually fun to play against. Their problem though is that some units are very hard to beat if they stay in combat. A chosen khorne chaos warrior unit will destroy zombie/skeleton unit after unit with a little chance of being stopped, Unless they get hit by some good spells, but that can't happen if they are in combat.

The only real way to stop elite units like those is to bait them away with small zombie units, but it takes a skilled player to do that, which I will have a lot of respect for if he beats me. I know this is totally off-topic but I thought I'd just say this.

To sum up, if a magic heavy army beats me the player must be pretty good to do it without the combat punch of the vampires.

NarC

fubukii
23-07-2005, 20:25
i normally bait units with frezny with summoned zombies, if i do it succesfully enough and the other player doesnt expect it i can just take that unit right out of the battle. If im havin trouble baiting away a unit ill normally find a way to flank them with my black knights as they pack a large enough punch to be the unit in combat on the charge and stop their frenzy.

Hal
26-07-2005, 08:52
I have no problem with magic - VC necromancy, most of the lores from the main book, even Slaanesh is acceptable. What I DON'T like is Magic Missile Artillery. Not just one or two wizards with the lore of fire (which iI myself usually take). Instead, I get annoyed when I see the 14 PD, all MM Tzeentch lists; the Fire Lorers with max wizards, etc etc. Now, many say magic does not involve tactics. It does, but not these point-and-shoot, BANG BANG Magic!!@!! armies. It really annoys me when people try to defend these lists as tactical.

~Hal|Rant over

AKBandito
26-07-2005, 09:44
if he is trying to beat you down with just magic, its likely your opponent is taking
close to the same army every game, so.. just custom your army to rape your opponents
which is pretty easy.

fubukii
26-07-2005, 09:56
bleh magic missles are lame creating new units and making them move in the magic phase is where its at ! :)

malisteen
26-07-2005, 13:24
The main problem with magic is that the primary defence against enemy magic is more of your own magic, such that if you want to be safe from magehammer armies eventually you end up playing one yourself.

At least, thats how my chronicals wood elves ended up turning into a magehammer army. I kept getting crushed, so I added wizards for more dispell dice and scrolls, and pretty soon I ended up with 11 casting dice and relying on the master spells to perform rolls that the units I dropped for all that magic were supposed to do, but couldn't because back when I played less magic they would all get blasted before they had the chance.

With my new army, I'm trying to concentrate more on mage hunting then the more blunt and limiting answer of more mages. I'm going to see how far 5 dispel dice and 2 scrolls can get me if I've got hit & run fliers, an eagle, and a bow that can pick enemies out of their units.

fubukii
26-07-2005, 22:26
thats not true , khorne gets dispel dice and has no casters. Lizardmen can do the same. :)

malisteen
26-07-2005, 22:31
Alright, replace primary with 'most common'. Few armies have plentiful sources of dispel dice other then their own wizards. Those few are khorne, lizardmen, and dwarves.

fubukii
26-07-2005, 23:39
true true, i was just pointing out a small exception, but yea you are correct to say most armies must bring their own mages to the table in order to dispel properly

Drachen_Jager
27-07-2005, 00:37
You could also go the magehunting route of magic defence, I'd like to see the look on a Magehammer general's face when you plop down 4 units of handgunners with HLRs, 2 cannons, 2 hellblasters and a captain on a pegasus.

Fubukii: You have opponents, with frenzied units that don't expect you to summon zombies as charge bait? Wow! That's pretty much the #1 tactic for VC vs a frenzied opponent since you can't flee ('cept for ghouls). I guess it works well unless your opponent is prepared, with 9 dispel dice and a big bag 'o tricks I've never run into a VC player who could cause me any problems in that regard.

fubukii
27-07-2005, 00:46
well, to be honest i seem to hav more trouble vs lizardmen then chaos armies in general. The one khorne player i know runs with a unit of chosen khorne warriors with 2hand wpns. it totally destroys my infantry blocks. luckily i have black knights and spirit hosts i use to take it out. but yea if i dont get to dea with that unit it just rampages through my army :(

Lordmonkey
27-07-2005, 00:59
Although magic is a large part of the game, it is so often abused to the point where I often see players turning up with 10+ power dices and tries to win the game pretty much purely by magic.

If I use 2 scroll caddies so that I have 4 dispell scrolls as well as 4 dispell dices per turn, would that be enough to shut down most magehammer armies? I'm hoping by playing this a few times with my local gamers, they'd get the point and get back to planning to win through some more tactical thinking rather than "hey I can throw a bucket of power dices!"

Or is it more likely they will refuse to play me and continue on their mage lovin' ways?

That'll work, but wont it also defeat the object? In order to take 4 scorlls you have to use 2 hero slots, and about 300points, to buy the two wizards to carry them. (or lord slot). So you shut down each others magic, what then?

And yeah, they will prolly refuse to play you because their one trick pony is nullfied by you and will probably make them think about the game a bit. Its a bit lame, but most of the time when people play magichammer they are playing purely to win, and not to have fun, or enjoy the "warhammer world" that is supposed to be created when you play the game.

made_of_metal
27-07-2005, 16:44
I am conflicted on the subject in ways. I get bothered by those armies that focus on generating PD at all costs. And ussually those armies have some very powerful lores availble to them. At the same time magic heavy armies can be approprate. With my lizzies the Slann just looks to cool not to take alot of times. Mind you i gues i am not as extreme as some people with only 9PD.
I think magic is out of hand when your oppenent does not really get to play. That is why Undead magic is so good. new units and free moves can mean ones tactics are useless. Or getting blown to bits in 2 turns with no rolls to hit needed is kinda depressing.
I feel magic should be designed to help tip the balance in your favour, not win the game. But that is just personal opinion.

leeoaks
27-07-2005, 16:57
i think the miscast table should be individual for each race to show there own control of magic, also the bigger the spell the worse the resulting miscast should be! that would make some people think about relying on magic....
and make the casting even more fun!

i'd love to see my caddy get his head blown up because he a crap mage! would make me chuckle!

Shimmergloom
27-07-2005, 17:16
The easy solution for anti-magic defense for those who don't want to use magic offensively but have to take magic for defense vs magic heavy armies is to let any race who take 0 casters get 4 dispel dice basic like dwarves. Where dwarfs would get 4 dice + D3 if they have no runesmiths.

If you take any mages or runesmiths then you lose the extra basic dice and just get normal dice as we have in the system now.

And add in clerics(different names for different races) or something similar who don't count as characters who just generate dispel dice and can carry 1 dispel scroll. Say they're similar to the champion upgrade. Only you get maybe 1 per 1000pts in the army. They cast no spells, can carry no other magic items other than their dispel scroll.

I think something like this or similar to it would help people who don't want to play magic and still allow people who play magic heavy lists to have fun with magic without nerfing it even more than it is.