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Tormentor of Slaanesh
22-07-2005, 16:45
They're vampies with monsters, better magic and evil chariots.
They can charge on the first turn and if you try and shoot them there is too many targets. What do u do? Combat or shooty army specifics please. :confused:

User Name
22-07-2005, 17:14
well the obuis one is to kill the herophat, other then that I have found eleit infintry that is immune to psychology to fair quite well aganst them, mainly chaos warriors.

KillbotFactory
22-07-2005, 17:19
The short answer is simple, shut down thier magic. TK completely rely on thier supportive magic to be an effective army. Killing the heiorphant is an obvious way too but good TK armies are usually unaffected by crumbling if they still have a Tomb King alive. Shutting down magic mainly restricts thier movement and ability to heal in combat so after you have gained the edge there, engage them as quickly as possible and hope to just overpower them.

Tormentor of Slaanesh
24-07-2005, 10:53
but they have so many spells, its hard to stop all of them. the heirophant is usually well protected and runs off.

Zeb
24-07-2005, 11:12
Staff of Sorcery (+1 to dispel) is an item I usually pack if I make a specilized andti TK/magic army. VS TK's its great since you willhave a much better chance in dispell.

And the only spell I realy lock down is the movment spell...

Tormentor of Slaanesh
24-07-2005, 11:24
but, wat if u want a tournament army?

kyussinchains
24-07-2005, 11:54
one tactic you can use is to take a couple of scroll caddies, although with my group we have a house rule of 1 dispel scroll per army.

obviously magic defence is very good, although not always an option with every army, elves and ogres have enough movement to deploy an inch back, then when the chariots fall short, you can charge in and (mainly with ogres) wipe them out pretty fast.

Stubborn troops which are immune to psychology are really effective charge blockers, maneaters in particular are great as they have high WS so many skeletons will be hitting on 5's, which means you get to do some damage back.

I'd always take some fast-moving hard hitting troops to strike out at the failed chargers, then move up and protect their flanks, whilst shutting down their worst magic if possible.

In general tomb kings have the worst troops in the game, so a couple of core units (preferably with a flank charge) can see off most of their units without too much trouble. All this time you should be shooting the hell out of his tomb guard/ushabti/bone giant depending on which is the most threatening, the bone giant is nasty on charge, but if you can charge it first it's not nearly so tough. Ushabti are pretty good all round, but they can get minced on charge by a tough unit with a hard character. Tomb guard are the least hard hitting, but they can be dangerous with those killing blows (make sure important characters are either out of contact, or well protected with wards) and they take the longest to wipe out, always flank charge them if possible to speed things up.

Hope those ideas help!

Zeb
24-07-2005, 12:10
Well, I usually think that I can't really take an army to a tournament that is tailored for one army. Lets face it; it's what 25-28 potentiall armies out there. Armybooks, Storm of Chaos, Lustria and WD lists (Zompie Pirates) potential lists that can be feilded depending on what the orginized decides. Why should I make a list that focuses on one of the other armys main strength?
It's better to focus on your own army and it's strength.

Of course you should think about what you might encounter but to tailor it. Nope! But Staff of Sorcery is a nice item no matter what.

I also feild small units (MSU/MSE), no unit costs more than 220pts. I can sacrifice a unit in order to take out the Heriophant, it will be more of a draw point wise but it will influence the game quite drasticly to my advantage...

In order to succed, I would include a unit of flyers (Harpies, Furies, Pegasus Knights, Warhawks, Eagles, etc.) preferbly high Ld or immune to psychology. To get that anoying flying Heriophant.
And a unit (or two) of Fast Cav. that can be sent into a unit and get as manny attacks against the Heriophant as possible (and then probably die or break).
Suicide missions (not a good anology in todays world, but) works pritty good.

There is also the sniping thing to get the flying one, you just line up Canons, Hellblasters, Boltthrowers etc and scrren other opponing units with your own so that teh only visable/closest target is the Heriophant... THis is quite sneaky, and wont get you sportmanship points.

Other than that, you'll have to remeber that he can't flee as a charge reaction. Double tapp the units. And set trapps with your own, flee and charge with other units in your turn.

Good Luck!

Warlord Gnashgrod
24-07-2005, 17:25
I don't think tomb kings have better magic. Max range for spells is 18, not counting the Casket of Souls. Yes, they will always cast their spells, but it'll never be done with irresistable force, so you can always dispell them.

There is onespell that you need to always stop: The Invocation of Urgency. Then they'll be moving much more slowly, and you'll have a better chance of getting charges. Also stop the spite spell when appropriate, like when he wants to shoot the screaming skull catapult or get extra hth hits. The summoning spell should be stopped when you almost have a unit down to either below half strength or almost destroyed. Also remember that only the Liche priests can cast the summoning spell, so destroy units out of his range of influence. They wont' be coming back.

tomb kings have poor armor. Their best is a 3+. and that's only on a Bone Giant and their heavy cavalry. Nothing else is better than 4+, and that's only with the hth bonus of shield+handweapon. This makes them somewhat more fragile than some other armies.

The fastest thing that the Tomb King army has is the Carrion, since they can still fly 20". Also, their tunnelling Scorpions and scarabs can be a problem, but you'll know about them ahead of time, so you can prepare for them.

Tomb Kings can be dangerous if done right, but if you know their weaknesses, they can be dealt with.

meowser
25-07-2005, 02:09
the movement spell is the priority to dispell
having the screaming skull catapult fire twice is ugly too
and watch out for the banner that gives a unit the magic march spell

dont put yourself out to take out the heirophant either, a good player can beat you crumbling

i lost with my SoC eshin after taking out his lurking heirophant in the 1st turn with an irresistable force casting of skitterleap with my master assassin =)

Tormentor of Slaanesh
25-07-2005, 09:11
Basic infantry can't beat chariots. Its a major problem. Tomb kings can take out most heros and some lords. How can you use terrain to your advantage, anti-chariot wise?

Warlord Gnashgrod
25-07-2005, 18:29
Chariots can't charge into Forests. At least, not without taking major damage. I don't think even a Tomb King player would risk it. They can repair their chariots with magic, yes, but you can dispell it. And the Tomb King players know this.

A good idea vs Chariots is the 'speed bump' tactic. Do you have a unit that is unbreakable? Put it in front of the chariots, and make sure that it is the only thing the chariots can charge. He'll have to charge them, or be charged by them. Then the chariots will be held in place so you can make countercharges.

I do it with my Skaven rat swarms all the time. It's a tactic that works well. Yes, I always lose the swarm, but that's what they're there for.

leeoaks
25-07-2005, 18:43
i would say tk are one of the few armies that rely on good a good general, if your getting pasted, its not the army but the person controlling them!

Tormentor of Slaanesh
03-08-2005, 17:27
I must point out that that I've used my dwarfs for years and my Vampies for quite a long time. I know how to use them and i've tailored a good tournament army of each. I'm only having probelms with my vampies cos the tomb kings seem to be very good against them.
The enemy general isn't brilliant, I taught him myself only two years ago. he goes for all the super troops like ushabti and bone giants. they are my only problems that and his tomb knig led chariot unit that charges on the first turn.
I've taken what you helpful fellows have said onboard and I'll play him again.
Thankyou, but continue commenting.

Warlord Gnashgrod
03-08-2005, 18:39
Against his multi-wound models, magic weapons that do multiple wounds per unsaved armor rolls are a good idea. Against the Bone Giant, well, you have to try to get the charge against it yourself. That's the best plan. With you VCs use your Danse Macabre spell to charge him before he does you. Or use nights or something else. That's the best thing I can think of here.

Not to mention always, ALWAYS stop his Urgency spell. Tomb Kings cannot march moveat all, so if you stop this spell, you can have the advantage in movement over him. Remember, there's no Irrisitible force with Tomb Kings magic. You can always dispell their spells, provided you have the dice or scrolls, and can make the dice rolls for it.

Lady's Champion
03-08-2005, 18:56
Yes, as the Tormentor says, the Tomb King player we play against is rather inept- but those chariots are a problem- even the worst player can use them effectively (not my infantry Orc army beat them so Tormentor's point wanes a little)

Also Tormentor with your whole "the wizards just get out of the way and they have too much magic" you don't see me complaining when your Vampire Counts army uses its magic to keep itself alive all the time and the wizards get out of the way and the General stoo powerful do you? Every army has its advantage

Tormentor of Slaanesh
03-08-2005, 20:29
my general can easily be killed. cough, brettonian lord, cough, combat resolution, cough, etc.
Anyway, even stopping the movement spells doesn't stop the chariots. they have a good charge range as do the ushabti. on the warlord's point when my knights charge they win the first combat but then get whittle down later on, rather quickly.

fubukii
03-08-2005, 23:49
tks can be a tough army to beat if they are played properly or if you dont have a high amout of magic. if you can shut down their magic phase and land some nice charges our chances of winning shoot up :)

zvonda
04-08-2005, 09:29
Against TKs good protection from magic is essential. TKs are basically one trick army - they relly on the incantation of urgency and charges in your flanks. Other incantations aren't that dangerous.
A assassin type character who would kill the hierophant early can win the game by himself.

gortexgunnerson
04-08-2005, 10:01
just concentrate your fire and keep everything in front of you are the tactics that have always worked for me. Try and kill units rather then damage. So just keep fireing till the unit is dead, next target. Good solid infantry units will generally beat Tome kings. If you dont have any run and hide. Deploy at the back of your deployment zone and then shoot/magic as they advance. Gives you more time and also reduces the effectiveness of the nastiness that is a tomb scorpion as he generally wont risk putting him too close to the edge.

Am surprised that VC don't beat up Tomekings just on weight of numbers. VC's can raise fast so should be albe to zombie tarpit evry nit of chariots on the battle field whilst running around with a vampire thrall with heavy weapon and wolf form runs round slapping chariot units I thought every VC army came with one as standard ;).

Though I normally play dwarfs so don't really have problems with tome kings due to my high Ld and availbility of rank piercing Str 7 weapons. Thiers something so satisfying with a flank shot from a str 7 bolt thrower. So I think the question should be about normal tournment army design, if you have lots of magic then you shouldn't have a problem. If you don't have much magic you should have a lot of good fighters and hence lots of Str7 attacks (this is a must for tournment play as their are so many beast of choas chariot armies, Tzeentch armies of doom, black coachs etc that need to be killed).

Lady's Champion
04-08-2005, 16:12
I get the feeling that Vamps are naturally weak against Tomb Kings

Warlord Gnashgrod
04-08-2005, 18:10
Yes, as the Tormentor says, the Tomb King player we play against is rather inept- but those chariots are a problem- even the worst player can use them effectively (not my infantry Orc army beat them so Tormentor's point wanes a little)

Did you see my "Speed Bump" tactic earlier in this thread?

Another good idea here is flyers. They can always move 20 inches, try and use them to get a flank charge into his chariot units. Then hopefully, they can hold them long enough for your main line to charge them. Always do your best to get the charge on them.

Also, if you can(and I know that VC undead can't do this, at least not the 'undead' units) consider using the flee reaction from their chariot charge. Try to have at least 2 units lined up so that either are charge targets for the chariots. Whichever one he charges, flee with it. He can't redirect into a unit that he could've already charged ot begin with(this is in the rules, the FAQ from one of the Annuals, I believe). So iwhen his charge fails, (hopefully you're far enough for this) then you can charge him with the other unit.

And don't forget to always stop the urgency spell. As for the Dwarfs, is it possible to use the spellbreaker/destroyer on Tomb King magic? If so, use it on the urgency spell, where only one TK character can possibly cast it on the units. That will slow him down.

ObiWan
05-08-2005, 20:41
I get the feeling that Vamps are naturally weak against Tomb Kings
No sir, we are not :D
We can easily dominate the magic phase, stopping dead (un?) their army on the tracks.
Also every mage can churn up zombies to stop the chariots.

Everence
08-08-2005, 12:20
So how would the new Wood Elves fair against TK? Got a match coming up and my opponent is think of using that special character Queen thingy. So it seems like a shooty sort of an army that will always hit on 4+. Not nice against unarmoured elves.

Tormentor of Slaanesh
08-08-2005, 14:40
Well, bone giants would mash eternal gurad but tree whack would kill the bone giant, (which in case u haven't noticed i hate).
I have three level 2 wizards in 2000 and 2500 points.
as strigoi I can't have S7 characters and as I have a characterful (ish) army I wouldn't have a black coach. only 2 bloodlines can have S7 anyway.

corben_da
09-08-2005, 19:48
avoid getting in to a TK trap.. TK is most effective when it surrounds you and it can come from suprise because of moving/charge spell.. and thinking about gettin hit twice from TK in close combat you might get you're ass whipped really quick. Although TK is really a slowest army in game so if you can shut down massive magic that tk can give then one major problem is "solved" other is that you might want to get rid of those screaming scull catapults... they do lots of damage and cause panic on your ranks. And if you have cannons or bolt-throwers etc. you might get surrounded by some scorpions or swarms so don't rely TOO much on them. On your magic phase you are on pretty dominative role because TK wont be dispelling too much, so take risky castings ;) you also should try to snipe that hierophant like everyone has allready said :D If you have shooting army then just stand and shoot and avoid the closecombat to the last, Tomb King can be really a pain in the ass att cc :P

Warlord Gnashgrod
10-08-2005, 18:45
So how would the new Wood Elves fair against TK? Got a match coming up and my opponent is think of using that special character Queen thingy. So it seems like a shooty sort of an army that will always hit on 4+. Not nice against unarmoured elves.
Well, here's a few possibilities. I know a little bit about the WEs, but I don't know them the best, so if I suggest something that can't be done, I apologize.

I know that they have a new magic item called the 'huntsman's bow' or claw, that will allow them to shoot mundane arrows without any targeting restrictions. Give this to a character to use against the TK characters. First against the Hierophant, then any other Liche Priests, then Tomb Princes, finally the Tomb King. I don't know if you can still do this, but you could put the character on a Eagle for greater movement flexibility so he can get LOS to these targets.

The Hail of Doom Arrow. Use it on one of his more expensive units, like Tomb Guard or Heavy Horsemen. The best save he'll get against it after modifiers is 5+ for the Horsemen and 6+ for the Tomb guard, if my memory serves me correctly.

Also, use your ability to magically move forests to your advantage, to block his chariot units and his horsemen.

Also, don't forget to always shut down/dispell the Invocation of Urgency spell.

I hope these tips have been somewhat helpful. Let me know.

Warlord Gnashgrod
10-08-2005, 18:47
A few other general hints all around: Dont leave your characters alone outside of units, Because of his Tomb Scorpion and Tomb Scarabs and the 'it came from below' ability.

And always try to arrange it that you charge the Tomb King units. Try to prevent the TKs from charging you.

enlightened0ne
13-08-2005, 05:42
always hit on 4+
It is actually a 5+ with poison :P

Warlord Gnashgrod
13-08-2005, 07:34
That's correct, enlightenOne. The special Queen character just gives the bowshots the poison special rule. They still require a 5+ to hit. This cannot be improved or made worse in any way.

corben_da
13-08-2005, 09:52
yep blessing of the asp (all hits are poisonous)
queen khalida is the character

Warlord Gnashgrod
14-08-2005, 17:11
Lets see now, Dwarfs could also use miners to get at the Liche priests that will be hiding at the rear of the army. Also, don't forget about all the warmachines Dwarfs can get, not to mention all the customization Dwarfs can give these warmachines with their runes.

There are many counter strategies to the Tomb Kings.

Tormentor of Slaanesh
14-08-2005, 18:46
the problem with my dwarfs is that I have to shoot ushabti, chariots and bone giant, too many targets!!!! ushabti are a bit too good i reckon, especially as they strike before dwarfs... miners aren't that good as the priests can run away as they are single characters.

Lady's Champion
14-08-2005, 19:15
Lets see now, Dwarfs could also use miners to get at the Liche priests that will be hiding at the rear of the army. Also, don't forget about all the warmachines Dwarfs can get, not to mention all the customization Dwarfs can give these warmachines with their runes.

There are many counter strategies to the Tomb Kings.

The miners would never catch the liche priests, the priest are faster and can just move away.

Dwarves do have a weakness to tomb kings.

Warlord Gnashgrod
14-08-2005, 20:06
But you will have ranks, standard, and outnumbering bonuses over the Ushabti with your Dwarfs. Not to mention what the Dwarfs will do back with wounding hits. I doubt the Ushabti always hit with all their attacks. I beat them with Skaven Clanrats. Are you saying a basic clanrat is better than a basic dwarf? I don't think so. I defeated the Bone Giant with lowly clanrats. I did get the charge, yes, but that's not the point. The point is my clanrats defeated a Bone Giant. Never underestimate the advantage of Rank bonuses, standard bonuses, and the outnumbering bonuses. ;)

Use Trollslayers as a speed bump for his Chariot units. Use Gyrocopters to go after his Liche Priests. Use rangers to go after them(rangers can scout, right? I honestly don't know). The miners could also go after his screaming skull catapults. Use your cannons to snipe his priests. Use the miners to force the Priests out into the open. I'm telling you, there is PLENTY of things you can try.

The best armor save that TKs get is 3+, and that's only on the Bone Giant. You don't get the hw + shield bonus for cavalry. So even his Heavy cavalry aren't exactly 'heavy'. I might be wrong here, I'll admit. But even if I am, then only the Bone Giant and the heavy cav get the 3+ AS, and the cav only get it in hth. Shoot them down!

Concentrate your firepower on one unit at a time until it's either destroyed or too weak to be much of a threat in hth.

I'm telling you, at least some of these ideas should work.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
14-08-2005, 20:18
The main thing to remember is that Tomb Kings simply aren't that resilient. Sure, they can get back on their feet, but for the most part, they are low toughness, and barely armoured.

As such, it's probably worth leaving your real heavy hitters at home. Basic combat res is the order of the day, and as many regiments as you can lay your hands on.

I'm guessing your playing Dwarves (sorry, can't be bothered to read all the thread right now!) so i would suggest a healthy sized unit of Slayers to bog down his Kings unit. Tomb Kings tend to win by attrition rather than sheer hittiness. Slayers excel at attrition, as you no doubt know.

With his Magic Phase, I find it useful to try and dictate it as much as you can later in the game. Initially, I would spread your firepower around a bit, and see which units he heals the most. This can give you a good insight into his battleplan.

Expect the Tomb Scorpion and Tomb Swarms. Not a great deal you can do about these, so I suggest taking NO artillery (seriously!) and instead investing in anti-magic and lots of extra basic troops.

Always try to engage his Tomb Guard with standard troops. With Stunties, even his Elite units will be just on par. And his Killing Blow blags him less points.

For your Missile Troops, I would reccomend Handguns over Crossbows. Reduced range, true, but the extra save modifier, and +1 at short range ought to damage his Ushabti type units.

Longbeards make an excellent Anchor, as with the General, they are Stubborn, and immune to fear. Believe me, this makes them a VERY stubborn understain!

vypyr
14-08-2005, 21:05
as someone stated before, the best way to deal with chariots is to flee. send a bait unit up, let him charge them, flee, he fails his charge, then you counter charge with a nice fast and/or powerful unit. then the chariots wont last long at all, and most importantly, wont do the damage they are capable of doing

Tormentor of Slaanesh
16-08-2005, 08:48
Longbeards make an excellent Anchor, as with the General, they are Stubborn, and immune to fear. Believe me, this makes them a VERY stubborn understain!
That is wrong!!! It's Hammerers who are stubborn and I have them led by my unkillable general. Then again do you have the master rune of kingship on your general as that is the only thing to confure those abilities?
I will give it a whirl and see. I have two war machines and a 10 man thunderers unit. The warmachines will mash the giant and the thunderers the ushabti or chariots if they are in charge range.

Lady's Champion
17-08-2005, 09:45
Grrr you have to hate Tomb Kings- fortunately our local player is totally inept and has never ever won a game (yay!)

Everence
17-08-2005, 12:02
It is actually a 5+ with poison :P

Oh damn, my Khemri friend has found me on the forum looking for Anti-TK tactics.

Regarding Queen Khalida, does she make the arrows magical and/or just poison?

Lady's Champion
17-08-2005, 18:12
Just poisoned attacks I'm afraid

Warlord Gnashgrod
17-08-2005, 18:23
But she also has the ability to automatically cast the Smiting spell once each TK magic phase. The soell is automatic and is essentially cast with Irrestistible Force. This special ability is called "The Queen's Command".

Tormentor of Slaanesh
17-08-2005, 18:40
I've never palyed against the special characters. Isn't her curse really bad?
Do you guys have any problem with tomb guard, I find them really naff, grave guard but worse.

Warlord Gnashgrod
17-08-2005, 18:59
Tomb Guard don't seem that bad to me. Their save is no better than the standard Skeleton warrior. Their stats are a bit better. but not so much as to be a major threat, at least not without really good armor. Their main advatinge is their tomb blades, which count as magic weapons and give them the killing blow special ability. They can also carry a magic standard as well. I don't think they're all that dangerous, not compared to some other special units. I think the chariot units are a bigger threat.

fubukii
17-08-2005, 20:16
why is the only anti tactica thread dedicated to tomb kings :x?

WE should have a anti S.A.D thread :)

Tormentor of Slaanesh
18-08-2005, 11:10
this tactica is here to give us help agianst a certain army. if you want to start one do so. there are several tactics that are anti, ie: the against ones, cough, Lady's Champion.

Commander X
18-08-2005, 19:41
I've never palyed against the special characters. Isn't her curse really bad?

Isn't it something like every model in the unit dies on 6+, then roll for that every turn after that? I don't have the book here, so I can't look it up.

PS: I just noticed the Anti-Tk Tactica is bigger than the normal one, I guess you don't like us that much...(I suppose that has to do with the necrophobia some Warseers appear to have ;) )

Lady's Champion
18-08-2005, 19:55
It's because the auto-breal outnumbered by a fear-causing enemy thing is too good.

Tormentor of Slaanesh
18-08-2005, 20:07
well, this is relevant to more people as this is relevant to every army not just tomb kings.
the casket, I have problems with it as I forget about it. can you use generals leadership against it?
yes the auto-break thing is good but it can be neutralised by causing lots of wounds, skeltons can only get 4+ save.

Lady's Champion
18-08-2005, 20:16
Nah it is basic leadership I'm afraid- and nobody can cause that many wounds against the millions of skeletons they face

Davian
19-08-2005, 02:54
Actually, according to the FAQ I'm reading, the General's leadership may be used...

Mad Doc Grotsnik
19-08-2005, 21:48
That is wrong!!! It's Hammerers who are stubborn and I have them led by my unkillable general. Then again do you have the master rune of kingship on your general as that is the only thing to confure those abilities?
I will give it a whirl and see. I have two war machines and a 10 man thunderers unit. The warmachines will mash the giant and the thunderers the ushabti or chariots if they are in charge range.

Looking at my Book Of Stunties, it seems you are indeed right. I guess Mr Gummer had the Kinship rune. But when you look at it, Lonbeards under the influence of the Kinship rune will simply NEVER bugger off. Stubborn on Ld10, immune to fear, terror and panic. Sure, it's expensive, but you now have a unit which you can depend on to literally fight to the last, and give your army a solid central anchor. Flanked, rear ended, who cares. It's going NOWHERE! And being Longbeards, with a Lord, they can dish out a severe slapping to any unit foolish enough to engage them! But do watch out for Killing Blow....could rain on your parade!

Tormentor of Slaanesh
24-08-2005, 10:29
wouldn't the lord die with no extra defence goodies? he could have a 2+ save and no ward. if you had another lord to do challenges you'd do better but only in 3000+.
you can use generals leadership!!! thank god, I thought it was a bit two good. where does it say that?

aakurtz
07-09-2005, 23:51
why isnt there a TK tactica on this site and only a anti-TK tactica? (post1)

Tormentor of Slaanesh
08-09-2005, 17:16
there was an anti-tomb king's tactica. start one if not.

fubukii
08-09-2005, 19:22
^^^ this is a anti tomb king tatica!!!!

there was a Tk tatica a while back we could start a new one i guess.
It would be nice to discuss tactics and such with veteran tk players since im just startin my tk force.