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EmperorEternalXIX
27-02-2007, 20:21
I notice a lot of spread out talk as far as the Space Marines go. A lot of it seems to be rants of varying degree that talk about a lot of crazy things that in practice don't always make sense or exist.

Normally this aggravates me, as I'm sure other more fluff-driven SM players might also attest. Day in and day out we see talk about 15 man terminator teams with 10 assault cannons apiece, huge lascannon-toting armies that never move and never have their line of sight blocked, etc. etc.

My bottom line is, there are a lot of "myths" about the SM that some people seem to propagate. Maybe they met someone who wasn't playing by the rules right, and think that these crazy setups are standard; maybe they just hate SMs; maybe they are just part of a bandwagon group. Whatever the case you have to admit there is a lot of fear and loathing out there for my preferred army.

Usually this made me a little upset but it doesn't anymore. Because people running around telling stories of invincibel soldiers who never die with more firepower than imaginable and never losing a battle...is exactly what the Space Marines are supposed to instill in their opponents.

However this got me thinking: what's the most off the wall SM misconception you've run into? I'm just curious to see if my sentiments are shared at all among SM players.

For me, I think the time I was at the store, and I was asked why I didn't use terminators. I said they were a waste of points for not-so-good weapons, and was told that Terminators all get free assault cannons. That was probably one of the funniest....

Hopefully some other SM folks have some more funny "SM Myths" to share.

BrainFireBob
27-02-2007, 21:05
My gripe's the shifting scale.

"Marines are broken because they can take the 6 man las-plas"

Yeah, but it's bad for objective seizing missions

"But for those missions they can take all-infiltrating True Grit Marines"

Not at the same time, dammit.

Rabid Bunny 666
27-02-2007, 21:09
That all Fire line marine armies should have las/plas.

I had an army with 6 units of 5 marines, either with Missile Launchers or Heavy Bolters, and combi-weapons for the Sarge. Lascannons can crack open tanks, but against a Horde, they're screwed, whilst Missile Launcher can do both.

Kahadras
27-02-2007, 21:14
I've heard on this board one person claim that Space Marines never need to use cover.


Not at the same time, dammit.

I agree with that too.

Kahadras

Gen.Steiner
27-02-2007, 21:20
My gripe's the shifting scale.

"Marines are broken because they can take the 6 man las-plas"

Yeah, but it's bad for objective seizing missions

"But for those missions they can take all-infiltrating True Grit Marines"

Not at the same time, dammit.

Yes they can.

Three squads of 6-man L/P.
Three squads of infiltrating True Grit.

Admittedly, it's not 'all' infiltrating, but the Fast Attack, Elite, and HQ can infiltrate - and if I was insane I could have 30 infiltrating True Grit Furious Assault veterans tooled up for CC with a base of 24 Tac Marines in four squads of 6 with las/plas... ;)

Okuto
27-02-2007, 21:32
Before I had my first game against marines with my IG, my oppenent kept talking about how it's impossible to take out a marine in CC and how they can take anything you can throw at them.......

Then when we finally play(my oppenent runs a shooty UM army) I notice that he has all this stink point units.....the first turn he hides all his point stinks in buildings. Ok.....understandable....since I've got russes and bassie....

Then I find that my shooting isn't doing much to the smurfs sooo I charge, my oppenent laughes and says my weak guardsmen can't stand up to marines. When the first couple dozens of guardsmen charge in, my oppenent lets me know that he's never done an assualt before.......I had no comment, the guy had termis and the UM chapter master.......

Needless to say, my guardsmen bested his smurfs in combat and destroyed him......

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
27-02-2007, 21:42
I'm not sure if English is your first language or not, but just for your own edification and not in a disparaging way I'll just point out it's point "sink" not point "stink." Unless they don't work very well and still take a lot of points, then I'd assume that point stink is a hilarious pun.

Lately I've heard a lot about how it's impossible for drop pods to be destroyed, how even if they scatter off the board edge they stop short. I'll tell you from drop pod army experience that is simply not true. Although mine have never scattered off the board. And what's the deal with 10Ld across the board?!?! ZOMG, tehyre broked!!

The_Outsider
27-02-2007, 21:44
That the assault cannon army o doom is actually beatable.

TBH the assault cannon of doom army is so hit and miss its not funny.

Reflex
27-02-2007, 21:47
this may come as a shock, but i think marines are the hardest army to win with. think about it, they are a simple army, i think the hardest part of them to understand is the they shall know no fear rule. but this theory only applys to vet gamers who can use armies like Tzeench armies effectivly and dark eldar armies like no one else.. so i am talking the guys at the top of the gaming ladder, not the new guys or anything. i think some may agree with this and some may not, but really it all comes down to how much exsperience you have had with the hobby.

i wont go into that because its kinda off topic.

funniest thing i have come into with marines... a black templar player thought that you could have infinite amounts of neophytes, he had like 8 or 9 boxes of them.

i think space marines are one of the armies that will always have trouble in the gaming community because there is so many against them and so many for them... that what makes them a cool army.. :)

MrBigMr
27-02-2007, 21:50
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6f/Mythbusters_logo.gif
http://www.cavill.com.au/images/234.gif
I'm not afraid of Marines. Bring plenty of plasma and lasguns.

EmperorEternalXIX
27-02-2007, 22:54
Someone in another thread said that he fought a guy who had all lascannon marines throughout all his squads, with bolters on their backs, claiming some were lascannon guys and some were bolter guys.

Imagine anyone at first glance seeing that on the table. Heh.

cailus
27-02-2007, 23:42
My Orks prefer to face a basic Codex Marine army rather than any other one. Marines are easy and unfortunately most people that use them are newer players with not much experience.

The one army I totally fear is the Imperial Guard and especially the lowly IG infantry squad with it's heavy bolter and the equally lowly Chimera with a heavy stubber, multi-laser and heavy bolter.

The lowly mortar squad is also quite scary - basically pepper an Ork squad with fire and after they've lost a bucketload of Orks, dump some mortar rounds on them. With Ld8 there's quite a chance of failing the pinning test especially if the number of models you have left is pretty low (this makes passing mob checks more difficult).

I once had an Ork slugga mob pinned for 3 whole turns from mortar fire. This especially sucked as I failed my first Mob Check with 11 models remaining in the unit. After that the pinning tests got easier as my boyz died in droves.

I have to say that I have never faced an Eldar army and loathe the day someone decides to introduce me to massed scatterlaser fire, and Avenger Catapult fire, all while my units are getting Doomed. Eek!

Overlord Krycis
28-02-2007, 00:16
My Orks prefer to face a basic Codex Marine army rather than any other one. Marines are easy and unfortunately most people that use them are newer players with not much experience.

The one army I totally fear is the Imperial Guard and especially the lowly IG infantry squad with it's heavy bolter and the equally lowly Chimera with a heavy stubber, multi-laser and heavy bolter.

The lowly mortar squad is also quite scary - basically pepper an Ork squad with fire and after they've lost a bucketload of Orks, dump some mortar rounds on them. With Ld8 there's quite a chance of failing the pinning test especially if the number of models you have left is pretty low (this makes passing mob checks more difficult).

I once had an Ork slugga mob pinned for 3 whole turns from mortar fire. This especially sucked as I failed my first Mob Check with 11 models remaining in the unit. After that the pinning tests got easier as my boyz died in droves.

I have to say that I have never faced an Eldar army and loathe the day someone decides to introduce me to massed scatterlaser fire, and Avenger Catapult fire, all while my units are getting Doomed. Eek!


Well...that was off-topic...:p

For me it had to be a group of younger/newer players who thought that because Terminators get an Invulnerable save, that the 2+ on their profile was it! This ended up spreading around the gaming club I went to until EVERY new player thought this!
That and that every Terminator in the army could have a Heavy weapon because "they can move and fire heavy weapons!"
:eyebrows: :rolleyes:

Drasriath
28-02-2007, 00:16
Truth is, just about any player can make a cheesy list. The reason Space Marines get a bad wrap is because so many people play them, and therefore the largest percentage of those 'cheesy list' players play them. Eldar can do the same thing with las/plas styled armies. Three squadrons of three warwalkers, filled out Vypers, filled out guardians, and it comes out to close to the same points cost, but you don't see it, because there's so few Eldar players that an even smaller percentage of them are cheese players.

Also, another thing to consider is that Space Marines are often player's first army. This means they get the most young players, and they're the demographic most likely to cheat or to make a cheesy list.

Lyinar
28-02-2007, 00:45
Here's one: That the Assault Cannon is some superweapon that will destroy an entire army on its own. Granted, it's also a Marine players' myth too.

Like I've said before, Rending is only exceptional if your luck is exceptional, or your dice are loaded.

Azuremen
28-02-2007, 00:51
Or just not know their own rules. Bah, I hate it when people don't know the rules, and I don't know their Codex... off topic here, but hear me out for a second. I unloaded massed S6 shots into a Krootox Kroot Merc squad. Guy started allocating one wound to each, and didn't insta kill them, even though it says right there in the army list Krootox can be insta killed by S6 weapons. Of course, I didn't know this at the time.

Back on Topic - Marine players tend to be new to the game... I remember when I was new and I had Marines from the 3rd edtion set, plus some my friend gave me, so I was running Marines at first. I thought cover was pointless, as I thought "hey, my save is better than cover, what do I need it for?"

The myths on marines are somewhat true, do the much larger number of players that use them, and the fact that almost every new player starts on them. GW basically sells them out as the best army there, always makes boxxed sets biased towards them, and so on.

pwrgmrguard
28-02-2007, 01:05
Basalisks mean i never fear marines. Indirect, instant death, no save, pie plate... SM are not that hard. I became thouroughly convinved when i had one all lasgun squad double tap and kill ten termis and the chapter master in one shooting phase. Also the whole unbeatable in assault thing, ten ratlings get charged by ten assault marines, at the end of the combat, 5 ratlings still stand, with no marines in sight.

The Dude
28-02-2007, 01:38
Here's one: That the Assault Cannon is some superweapon that will destroy an entire army on its own. Granted, it's also a Marine players' myth too.

Like I've said before, Rending is only exceptional if your luck is exceptional, or your dice are loaded.

Biggest myth ever. I reckon I've gotten a grand total of 5 rending shots from my 1 assault cannon in about 10 games. If you're relying on the rending to do the job, it's just not that reliable.

That said, it still shouldn't be cheap and common :D

Spotty
28-02-2007, 01:53
The biggest myth about marines that i've heard is that the army doesnt exist...

(played at a center where everyone hates marines)

Reflex
28-02-2007, 02:03
Like I've said before, Rending is only exceptional if your luck is exceptional, or your dice are loaded.

i never ceases to amaze me that no matter how bad or how little i need rending shots, it never happens for me. your words flow with truth. good one.

studderigdave
28-02-2007, 02:13
i got into a discussion on AIM with a kid i know about marines. he just started playing and was talking to me about tactics. it looked something like this:

Him: What do you play mostly?
Me: mostly orks, footslogging variety
Him: Heavy Bolters own orks, my space marine could wipe out your orks easily.
ME: thats a broad statement.
Him: there is no way orks could win against a heavy bolter heavy army
Me: care to test that theory?
Him: sure, 1500 points at the local shop in an hour?
Me: sure.

i show up. the local store doesnt cater to gaming much but has a small 6 x 4 in the back with some basic terrain for mageknight mostly. he highjacks the table and sets up. he opts to play "short board" so all of his bolters are in range ASAP. i smile and drag in my 3 cases.

his army looks like this:

captain with bolter and fist

4 - 10 man tac sqauds, HB and Flamers

2 - 5 man devestator squads, 4 HB's each

some skimmers

some bikes

dreadnaught, ass cannon and dCCW

my army looks like this:

warboss, PK and choppa, 3+/5+ save

30 boyz with nob, PK 2 flamers
30 boyz with nob, PK 2 flamers
30 boyz with nob, pk 2 flamers

30 gretchin w slaver, hound

zagstruk with 10 vulchas

looted basilisk

i set up my army, and before i get the second squad of orks out he tells me my list is more then 1500 points. after i show him my math, he quiets down. after the thrid squad is deployed he ggets a little jitery. after the grotz, the stormboyz and the bassie, he is almost sweating.

no scenario, just face beating, ork style. i win the roll for first go. grotz move up, boys behind, zagstrukk and vulchas take tio some terrain on the left. bassie makes the loota test. direct hits a squad of devestators, killing 4. his go, he kills 6 orks from on squad, land speeders and bikes DONT MOVE (?).

turn 2.

grotz and orks move up. they are within 12 inches now, he makes this very clear as he repeats the word "rapid fire" for the entire store to hear. i just smile. bassie passes test. pounds the other devie squad, drifts a bit but still kills 2. he offs the sgt. as one of the kills. zagsrtuk moves into assault with command squad. assault phase, zagrtukk and vulchas cut down the command squad, and consolidate into a tac sqaud. he killed 12 more boyz and a slew of grotz. again his speeders and bikes sit still and shoot. dread missed mostly.

turn three. all orks are in assault, all marine squads are destroyed in the next 2 rounds with all squads except the center squad keeping at least 12 boyz alive. warboss gutz the dread with PK while the dred swings for nothing in a random assault phase.

so after the game he was kinda quiet. he looked at his forces as he picked them up and said:

"no one plays orks like that but you, you got lucky"

Joewrightgm
28-02-2007, 02:29
rumor that I kind of don't like is Plasma Cannons are worthless.

That's before I pop open some light tanks/skimmer with it, then have the rest of the army shoot the (usually) pinned contents with bolters. I heart plasma, I heart it alot.

Hicks
28-02-2007, 03:23
Well for me it would be that everybody and their brother owns an SM army. In my gaming group, only said brother (and soon me) play with SMs. I almost never game with my bro because he is too lazy, so I really can't say that I have any experience fighting them. While most of you seem to pray for a game against non-SMs, I would actually like to fight some for once.

The Dude
28-02-2007, 03:25
Well for me it would be that everybody and their brother owns an SM army. In my gaming group, only said brother (and soon me) play with SMs. I almost never game with my bro because he is too lazy, so I really can't say that I have any experience fighting them. While most of you seem to pray for a game against non-SMs, I would actually like to fight some for once.

I think this depends on where you are. Unfortunately for me, All but one game I played during Medusa V was against Marines, and I play Marines. Ordinarily I would have not played the games, as it was sort of against the background, but I rarely get to play and so you take it where you can get it, I suppose.

Chainsworded Codpiece
28-02-2007, 03:43
Firstly-

EmperorEternal the 19th: You have a great way of dealing with the silliness that can abound, and I approve. It's forgiving, it's novel, and it makes the game more fun for you despite others' attitudes.


Secondly-

The_Outsider: thank you for writing out "Assault Cannon" instead of "Ass-Cannon", which makes me explode with giggles.

The wierdest non-understanding of the rules (aside from my own) that I've heard was some new guy (young and very enthusiastic, but very raw) misunderstanding the Rapid Fire and True Grit.

So much so, that he had the idea that he could A) fire twice prior to charging, then fire his bolter in CC twice again, or B) Elect to fire his bolters four times in Rapid Fire, forgoing their use in CC (of course).

As far as I could tell, this is not the case. Then again, I don't own C:BT, har de har har.

Gutlord Grom
28-02-2007, 03:52
Yes they can.

Three squads of 6-man L/P.
Three squads of infiltrating True Grit.

Admittedly, it's not 'all' infiltrating, but the Fast Attack, Elite, and HQ can infiltrate - and if I was insane I could have 30 infiltrating True Grit Furious Assault veterans tooled up for CC with a base of 24 Tac Marines in four squads of 6 with las/plas... ;)
Which means you're army is doomed on non infil games. And the Veterans are really just Marines with two attacks and shiny weapons. That are generally for close combat. Ad those three units would be a massive points sink.

the Mann
28-02-2007, 03:58
I met a guy at the local GW once that was completely confident that his marines could take out any army in any scenario. We got into a bit of an arguement about it and he challenged me to a game, 2,000 points, omega cleanse. I walked over to a freind of mine (who very well might be crazy) and asked to borrow his orks. His deathskull orks. With thirty-six plasma cannons in the army. Long story short I broke his soul. I also think I might have also driven him away from marines.

But it's O.K., the world needs less marine players.

AngryAngel
28-02-2007, 05:48
Biggest myths ?.. there are so many. Lets see

First being the fear and awesome might of the assault cannon. I neither live in fear of this weapon..or believe anyone should overly fear it.

Second, that marines don't need cover. With the amount of weapons that you normally run into game in game out to rip through marine armor. They need the cover as much as anyone.

That using the army is so relatively easy, when most people tool directly to kill them. When everyone knows how to counter them or best put them at a negative.

Generally just that they are so unstoppable. I have been stopped plenty, as I'm sure most every marine player has. So I can attest, they are hardly beyond reproach bad ass.

boardbox
28-02-2007, 06:04
To be honest I don't understand all the flak marines get.
They're slow and not difficult to beat in close combat (I'm talking codex. Space Wolves are a different story). They can also be outshot. The strength of marines lies in their generalist nature (a marine can fill any role fairly well) rather than them being very good at anything in particular.

Arch-Traitor Horus
28-02-2007, 06:05
True Fact marines suck! i have a DE army most people laugh when u drop it down on the table then acuse u for having more than the allocated points cause u have so dam many raiders and agonizers most marines i play have a tooled up commander or liby with a termi squad i have the much mobility i just ignore that squad for most of the game or i go after it with 2 wyche squads n a incubi with lord... marine aint that scary

Gen.Steiner
28-02-2007, 07:52
Which means you're army is doomed on non infil games. And the Veterans are really just Marines with two attacks and shiny weapons. That are generally for close combat. Ad those three units would be a massive points sink.

I never said it was a good army, just that taking infiltrating AND six-man las/plas squads is possible. :p

MysticTitan
28-02-2007, 08:23
True Fact marines suck! i have a DE army most people laugh when u drop it down on the table then acuse u for having more than the allocated points cause u have so dam many raiders and agonizers most marines i play have a tooled up commander or liby with a termi squad i have the much mobility i just ignore that squad for most of the game or i go after it with 2 wyche squads n a incubi with lord... marine aint that scary

Ya (DE here too), I have my friend who plays Grey Knights in fear of my dear dissie ravager pieplates (6 str7 ap2 pieplates for 240pts!) I normally get off a volley or two before they die (WWP helps with that). I dont fear marines, DE seem made to kill them...

The_Outsider
28-02-2007, 08:48
Pfft marines, I also play DE (but as per every 40k player own a marine army).

Needless to say my archon and incubi in a 1k game ate roughly 650 points of blood angels. I was amused, he was not.

More debunked rumours - marines can *actually* fail morale tests.




(Surely you jest!?).

GodofWarTx
28-02-2007, 09:00
My personal favorite myth is marines are absolutely invincible unless you have a few dozen AP3 weapons

Azuremen
28-02-2007, 09:00
Ya (DE here too), I have my friend who plays Grey Knights in fear of my dear dissie ravager pieplates (6 str7 ap2 pieplates for 240pts!) I normally get off a volley or two before they die (WWP helps with that). I dont fear marines, DE seem made to kill them...

I coulda swore they were only normal blasts, not the massive ordinance ones? Maybe I am staring at the wrong codex?

MysticTitan
28-02-2007, 09:05
Pfft marines, I also play DE (but as per every 40k player own a marine army).

Needless to say my archon and incubi in a 1k game ate roughly 650 points of blood angels. I was amused, he was not.

More debunked rumours - marines can *actually* fail morale tests.




(Surely you jest!?).

I am the proud owner of a lack of marine models(Ie, I dont have any, and never have bought any) (First army was a 500pts eldar), followed by my ever growing DE.
Reminds me of when one player saw my lords updated profile, he was going on about how "You mixed up those saves, it should be 2+ normal and 5+ invunerable", made my day at his look when he saw I was right.


Editaddon: They are normal blasts, I just like sayin pieplates. =)

Drasriath
28-02-2007, 09:07
My personal favorite myth is marines are absolutely invincible unless you have a few dozen AP3 weapons

I seem to do just fine with Dire Avengers with blade storm. They tend to average 4 or 5 marines every time they do it. Add doom or guide and you'll kill around 8 or 9.

As a wise man once told me, the best way to make space marines fail their saves is to make them roll.

Dunno where some of these myths come from.

Eniac
28-02-2007, 09:40
The myth in my locale was that my deathwing army was unbeatable because "OMFG loadz of Terminat0rZZZ!!!!WTF!!!?!" but the truth was actually far from...true....

Any army with more than three figures could pretty much hammer it into the dirt in fact in all the time I played it, no matter what configuration it always got panned by turn 4 and I didn't chalk up even a single victory.

Azuremen
28-02-2007, 09:41
I am the proud owner of a lack of marine models(Ie, I dont have any, and never have bought any) (First army was a 500pts eldar), followed by my ever growing DE.
Reminds me of when one player saw my lords updated profile, he was going on about how "You mixed up those saves, it should be 2+ normal and 5+ invunerable", made my day at his look when he saw I was right.


Editaddon: They are normal blasts, I just like sayin pieplates. =)

LOL, okay. Sounds much scarier when you say pie plate ;)

I got the 3rd edition starter set with the DE and SM... and like any other 14-15 year old, I thought DE sucked cause they didn't have good armor or guns, etc etc. So I have a decent Marine army (I can pull about 2000 pts out if I field almost everything, but its almost all foot sloggers)

Luckily, I quickly got hooked on the idea of speed and started on Eldar... and now I crave Dark Eldar, despite their somewhat over the top on spikes deal.

Just something about tons of super cheap AP2 weapons and 55 pt fast transports. Oh, and those splinter cannons seem rather appealing as well... lots of move and shooting going on, which I enjoy.

Back on topic - Myth that Space Marines can do anything if numbers are even, regardless of shooting or hand to hand. They are, according to GW, better than almost any other force's elites, so they should be able to just shoot them all to death or punch them in the face. YEAH, iN DA FACE!

HtH against Banshees will not be pretty, and shooting it out wiht Warp Spiders is going to be a bad idea too... oh well.

Onisuzume
28-02-2007, 10:18
Needless to say my archon and incubi in a 1k game ate roughly 650 points of blood angels. I was amused, he was not.
"Marines just own Tyranids."
"A lone Hive Tyrant can't possibly last long."
"Wtf?!" (after said Hive Tyrant just ate the remaining 775 points of his army)
Yes, the battle lasted well beyond the 6 turns, but we were just wondering how long that Hive Tyrant would last.

Gen.Steiner
28-02-2007, 10:22
Any army with more than three figures could pretty much hammer it into the dirt in fact in all the time I played it, no matter what configuration it always got panned by turn 4 and I didn't chalk up even a single victory.

Then you were doing something wrong. While the Deathwing are vulnerable, you should have been able to rack up at least one win!

Deathwing Mantra:
Stay AWAY from the enemy
CONCENTRATE your fire
BELIEVE in the God-Emperor!

Eniac
28-02-2007, 10:24
Yes I was doing something wrong, I played as deathwing. PLus I have bad luck. I suck, I admit but at least I had some fun doing it so it wasn't all bad :D.

Gen.Steiner
28-02-2007, 10:30
So long as you had fun. :p

Seriously, though, if you want to win with the 'wing (it is possible!) visit the Deathwing Tactica. :)

machine_recovered_meat
28-02-2007, 11:05
Great thread:D .

Every comment about the assault cannon, including the spelling - absolutely spot on.
Ass Cannon indeed. Fires donkeys does it? ;)

It really does seem that certain elements of the gaming fraternity are of the impression that marines merely need to turn up to achieve victory.

Lyinar
28-02-2007, 11:08
Oh, Gods... Don't give CS Goto any ideas... the last thing we need is a braying assault cannon!

Thenmy
28-02-2007, 12:08
Every comment about the assault cannon, including the spelling - absolutely spot on.
Ass Cannon indeed. Fires donkeys does it? ;)
Oh, Gods... Don't give CS Goto any ideas... the last thing we need is a braying assault cannon!
Oh yes. That, and next SM Codex will have Dreadnoughts with Heavy Llamas.

Griffin
28-02-2007, 13:03
Oh yes. That, and next SM Codex will have Dreadnoughts with Heavy Llamas.


*chokes on cofee and falls backward off chair - nostrils scalded by burning liquid*

Overlord Krycis
28-02-2007, 13:43
My personal favorite myth is marines are absolutely invincible unless you have a few dozen AP3 weapons

I've heard this rumour so much that is starting to get funny.
My Tau own Marines every time I play against them...know why?

Markerlights and Pulse Rifles...:evilgrin:
It's sort of the Tau version of Dooming a unit...but with much more use.

HMSNoodles
28-02-2007, 14:22
Biggest myth with marines (codex: sm) is that we're good in close combat

I find its the bane of my marines. Don't really have any good close combat units that can do a combined move/assault of more than 12", which means I normally get charged and ravaged by power weapons, khornate axes, choppaz or whatever anyone else has.

My biggest gripe is that the assault squad can't have power weapons.

Sir_Turalyon
28-02-2007, 15:07
"Marines are good in close combat"

I had played quite a lot when I met marines for first time, and expected them to eat my guardsmen alive... until i saw 10 men speedbump Guardsmen squad hold assault squad for 3 rounds, giving me time to separate and shoot other units. In that first battle i shot all his units except Terminator commander, who killed half of my infrantry in close combat, before second half run far enough away and killed him with flashlight fire.

"Black Templars charge is unstoppable "

It was an opinion by soon-to-be Black Templar player (late 3rd edition), who came to tournament with borrowed BT army and rolled over every (Chaos and Marine) army he met. He had a Whirlwind and lot of CC squads in Rhinos, I had 3rd ed guard rocket/plas gunline with conscript screen, bassilisk (first use), russ and extras like Ogryn and Rugh Riders.

Turn 1: He rushes all rhinos and kills some squad with ww fire. Conscripts advance towards him and outside 12" of rest of army, which he comments as stupid move. Rockets and ordnance immobilize leading rhinos.
Turn 2: Mobile rhinos advance, passagers disembark and whole army (20 models?) charge conscripts, killing all 50 of them in one impressive turn of slaughter. Then they sweeping advance towards rest of army, and all squads in assault range are shot to pieces.
Turn 3. Survivors move toward guard line, but most fail to charge it; then they are again shot. Rough Riders mob up survivors, Ogryns break immobile rhinos.

It's one of my favorite battles ever, because templar player-to-be started guard instead. So I guess i dismissed the myth succesfuly.

Thenmy
28-02-2007, 17:56
*chokes on cofee and falls backward off chair - nostrils scalded by burning liquid*
One internal burning at a time, I approach world domination. :evilgrin:

MysticTitan
01-03-2007, 04:28
LOL, okay. Sounds much scarier when you say pie plate ;) Thats why I say it like that (They know its a normal blast though).



I got the 3rd edition starter set with the DE and SM... and like any other 14-15 year old, I thought DE sucked cause they didn't have good armor or guns, etc etc. So I have a decent Marine army (I can pull about 2000 pts out if I field almost everything, but its almost all foot sloggers)

Luckily, I quickly got hooked on the idea of speed and started on Eldar... and now I crave Dark Eldar, despite their somewhat over the top on spikes deal.
I started with an eldar army, stopped at 500 pts and went for something faster with more spikes.


Just something about tons of super cheap AP2 weapons and 55 pt fast transports. Oh, and those splinter cannons seem rather appealing as well... lots of move and shooting going on, which I enjoy.
I know, it seems we are made to kill those marines, and I plan on putting more dissies in my army by making my transports have them (+5 points for a marine killing template? Yes please!)


Back on topic - Myth that Space Marines can do anything if numbers are even, regardless of shooting or hand to hand. They are, according to GW, better than almost any other force's elites, so they should be able to just shoot them all to death or punch them in the face. YEAH, iN DA FACE!

HtH against Banshees will not be pretty, and shooting it out wiht Warp Spiders is going to be a bad idea too... oh well.

Hmm, shall we count combat drugs, and whether our dear little wyches start in CC?

MrGarm13
01-03-2007, 05:17
Locally, it's that Space Marines suck. ( I play them and haven't won a game yet.)

Another opinion is that Assault Cannons are broken and that Landspeeders are ridiculous. (Yet, the speeders are the first thing shot at in every game.)

MysticTitan
01-03-2007, 06:19
Locally, it's that Space Marines suck. ( I play them and haven't won a game yet.)

Another opinion is that Assault Cannons are broken and that Landspeeders are ridiculous. (Yet, the speeders are the first thing shot at in every game.)

Eh? You might want to read the space maine(s) tactica threads then...

Yorrik
01-03-2007, 07:05
I know a guy who believes his own Space Marine trash talk - he was confused to the point of epic anger when his tactical squad got charged and wiped out by the enemy assault specialists. They're Space Marines, they're decent in close combat, but they've still only got one attack each. Hell, even my Space Wolves have trouble holding their own against dedicated assault troops of other armies.

One myth I've run into is that Space Marines' stats are so good that they'll make up for bad rolls or poor strategy.

zealousheretic
01-03-2007, 07:53
I've got a couple interesting ones.

1) Space Marines should never advance towards an assaulty army, ever. Space Marines can only win against Tyranids if they kill everything and prevent any Tyranids from reaching assault.

The fear most armies have of Tyranid units (of any kind, even spinegaunts) assaulting them is something I cheerfully exploit, but I do run into people that realize that a unit like Raptors or Assault Marines can do plenty of damage in assault if they target the right units, and that recognize that barring horrible play or horrible luck on the 'nid player's part, they will get assaulted, and they will take casualties, even if they win the game.

2) Las/Plas is an "all comers" configuration. It's not. It's a "kill power armored infantry" configuration. "All comers" armies require more variety in weaponry.

Las/plas squads don't worry me nearly as much as dedicated infantry killing tac squads do; if I can force my opponent to choose between shooting my gaunts and/or real assault units (which is the part of my army most likely to actually kill him) and shooting my MCs (which pin tanks, and can wreck things pretty good if they make it to his lines) with his tactical squads, things are going my way.

Eniac
01-03-2007, 08:36
in my experience, it is not that marines cannot win an assault against nids it is that my entire marine (vanilla) army will inevitably become bogged down for much of the later turns in a game untill the chitinous speedbump is fully destroyed. by that point you just get hit with another wave of bodies


the one that makes me larff time and time again is the old "marines don't need cover" which is fine if all you are against is ig with no tanks, guns or battle lust

blargh
01-03-2007, 13:05
Myth 1:
"If you play marines you're not a good player"

Myth 2:
"If you don't have a marine army you're automaticly a good player"

It's a certain elitism that creeps in when a game has an army that are so popular as the Space marines are. If it's popular none of the good players are playing it, and everyone that are not playing the popular choice have to be talented. This of course is rubbish since army choice in general have nothing to do with player skill.

The_Outsider
01-03-2007, 13:26
and everyone that are not playing the popular choice have to be talented. This of course is rubbish since army choice in general have nothing to do with player skill.

Although true, there is some truth in that less played armeis are often played by more experienced gamers (ref: Dark Eldar).

More myths-

"Command squads are unstoppable killing machines"

Have fun with trying to make combat with it, even if you do anything that strikes first can dramatically reduce its strength.

"Land raiders are the toughest tank in the game"

Close, but the monolith and immortal falcon (and probably hammerhead) are far tougher than a land raider.

Arkturas
01-03-2007, 16:16
SM CC ability is seriously overated.

The standard marine although fairly hard to kill doesn't have remotely enough attacks to do any CC damage. With nids any gaunt brood will tie most marine squads for a really long time. If you go for a gaunt shoot then assault move a couple of marines will die and they'll be there for a little bit longer squashing 2-3 gaunts a turn for the rest of the game.

That leads to marine tactical advice vs nids involving assault. Sit back, shoot them and then charge them first. Who came up up with the idea that you shouldn't charge a CC force anyway.

EmperorEternalXIX
01-03-2007, 18:01
There is a guy on here who plays nids and he has made a couple of anti-marine complaints which are in direct contrary to the opinions in this thread; things like "Marines are invincible in CC" and "Auspex and Bionics are way too good."

Heh. That last one makes me chuckle.

Lyinar
01-03-2007, 18:04
Let me guess, he has a Broodlord that got killed by a marine that he thought he'd killed but got back up due to Bionics?

Inquisitor Lord Horus
01-03-2007, 19:05
If a SM player who is cheesie or cheats or has been playing 3 months and still needs to look at the codex for their toughness comes near my chaos army I give them 11 S7 WS6 I6 no armour SV attacks from my Deamon prince of doom.

EmperorEternalXIX
01-03-2007, 19:17
Actually I'm not sure. He hasn't really given too many specifics, he just usually makes the point that marines are too reliable or forgiving. No matter the counter arguments or suggestions made he clings pretty hard to the idea that 6 man las/plas can never be beaten by nids, etc.

He is a big fan of the whole "Space Marines are impossible to beat in CC" argument. He claims that a 6 man las/plas squad can beat 30 gaunts in combat without being at all remotely hurt. Cries a lot about hidden powerfists, too. Uses a lot of mathhammer conjecture to make his points, as well.

I notice nid players seem to be the most agitated with marines. Understandly so, I think, but still. I really feel for this dude when I read his posts though. I read them and think, "What happens when he has to fight Necrons, and they get to come back to life and teleport?"

For me the biggest marine myths are how certain weapons of ours are unfairly powerful but other armies have an endless supply of them and no one minds. Case in point, Necron Heavy Destroyers are T5 lascannons with the gauss rule who are skimmers that can come back to life...but no one minds. ImpGuard can have a ton of lascannon teams if set up right, way more las/plas than the marines from what I've seen.

I think a lot of this guys' experiences come from a marine player who is maybe bending the rules in his favor.

jfrazell
01-03-2007, 19:46
ImpGuard can have a ton of lascannon teams if set up right, way more las/plas than the marines from what I've seen.



Lowly BS3 guardsmen actually pay more for their lascannons then marines.

FireN.Brimstone
01-03-2007, 19:57
Lowly BS3 guardsmen actually pay more for their lascannons then marines.

Well yes and no. A support squad with 3 larcenous pays 36 2/3 points per Lascannon, where as a marine can get them no cheaper than 43 3/4 points per Lascannon. You got to factor in the price of the bodies around the heavy weapon and the over all number heavies an army can field when you determine in the price.

Hrogoff the Destructor
01-03-2007, 20:03
Huh? How do you get a daemon prince that has 11 attacks of S7, I6? Does it involve furious charge and the manreaper?

To be a slightly more on topic, doesn't that person realize that Space Marines are supposed to be all around good? They appeal to beginners, and such were made very forgiving. Other teams with lower toughness and worse armor saves are supposed to require a little more expertise.

But why the heck would gaunts be scrapping melee with space marines? Of course they are going to lose! So would 50 imperial guard vs. 10 Khorne beserkers.

jfrazell
01-03-2007, 20:48
Well yes and no. A support squad with 3 larcenous pays 36 2/3 points per Lascannon, where as a marine can get them no cheaper than 43 3/4 points per Lascannon. You got to factor in the price of the bodies around the heavy weapon and the over all number heavies an army can field when you determine in the price.

That creates an apples to oranges argument. In simple cost marines get their lascannon more cheaply then guardsmen.

Gensuke626
01-03-2007, 20:50
Hrogoff....I'd like to say that 50 guardsmen against 10 Berzerkers is not an impossible situation...that's ALOT of bodies, and anyone who plays this game knows that sometimes The Lady doesn't favor us...(not the Bretonnian lady, But the Vegas Lady...)
To that end, I've seen Gaunts rip into a Marine squad, Break it, and force it to fall back off the table. Specifically I've seen MY gaunts do that. It's also seen a squad of 5 SM scout snipers break 10 Striking Scorpions (Again, my Scorpions)

As for Marine Myths...I think my local group doesn't have many. We all play enough to know that Marines are beatable and are just starting to learn that Orkz are the the Supreme race in the universe.

inane-fedaykin
01-03-2007, 22:58
My shops insists that orks are useless and SM a total newb army. I blame me, I'm the one pointing out that SM is marketed to new players and Orks just can't win with their outdated codex.

hoobajoo
01-03-2007, 23:55
Yeah, Marines never need cover. Ever. Until ol' Leman Russ pokes his head out and blasts away whole squads.

The most hilarious myth about SM I've seen (and I've exploited it several times) is that Scouts are weaker than Tacticals in some way other than a save. I use them for CC all the time, and one of my opponents in perticular keep thinking that their 7 Marines with Bolters will somehow prevail against my 10 Scouts with Pistols and CCWs, and a Power Fist.

Stella Cadente
02-03-2007, 00:26
Biggest myth I had (if you can call it that) was a Tyranid Player (previous codex) who said after looking at my Librarian "why take Librarians?, Force weapons are useless, my Tyrants will rip you to shreds, also why Bionics? (also previous codex) there no use either".

by the end of a 6 turn game he had lost by my Librarian:
2 Hive Tyrants
1 Carnifex
6 warriors
18 Genestealers
and 6 Gaunts.

he also passed 4 6+ Bionic saves in a row.

needless to say, by the end of the game his mouth was on the floor and he soon learn't to fear a Dark Angel Librarian, by the name of Jariel hehe

AngryAngel
02-03-2007, 05:26
While I'm in the company of marine supporters. Let me field, the rumor and myth of marines being a newb..beginner army..are as well false. Any army is going to be easy/hard to learn. Depending on what your own personal tactics and acumen is. I started on Marines..though it was mostly because of people telling me how unstoppable they were..which I soon found to be a little false.

Out of my particular group..I had one friend start with Tau..one with Nids, Me with Marines and another friend with guard. Not a one of us learned the rules any quicker. None of us just opened the fury on the others. Even now..we've spent some time into it. Yeah we're broken down into good or bad. We knew what that was going to be by whom are friend are however. It was still just as easy for everyone to learn it.

That bs of the easier to learn army, just a way for people to feel more elite with their.."hard" army. Diffrent armies require diffrent touches. That is all.

As well biggest myth ? I just rememberd why I started playing Marines. A friend of mine who played necrons kept telling me these tall tales of marines. Even going so far as to tell me space marine Terminators got their invulnerble save just because they were bad ass. The convo went like this.

"Yeah..they are veterans..called terminators..they can take anything."

"Anything ?"

"Yeap..just because they are that bad ass..they don't have time to die."

"Your telling me they can get blasted by a tank..and just be fine afterwards ?"

"Yeap...hell their regular armor isn't even poped by krak missles..which you use to hun tanks."

"Damn..they sound like bad asses..would be cool to have a whole army full of um.."

"You can do that..its called Deathwing"

"Awesome..with people that bad ass..how can anyone else win ?"

"Its hard..they are tough as hell"

Needless to say I was let down to discover they didn't just get their 5+ save because they didn't have time to die.

Fire1098
02-03-2007, 05:53
Minus the speeders, I think the real cool thing about asscans are the terminators they are attatched to. Used to have a decent DW. They do play a tad differently nowadys.

I'm off subject as well but decided to throw a few cents in.

Prince Facestab
02-03-2007, 06:12
Even going so far as to tell me space marine Terminators got their invulnerble save just because they were bad ass.

...

Needless to say I was let down to discover they didn't just get their 5+ save because they didn't have time to die.

You know, I think I actually prefer it that way.

Maybe in YOUR army it's a special feature of their armor that gives terminators their 5++ save. In MY army, it's because they're total badasses.

AngryAngel
02-03-2007, 06:26
Think about it..

Bob Terminator..talking to Sal Terminator.

"So..the Sgt turns to Phil and says..." BOOM!!!..Demolisher cannon blasts the two..they kinda stand there. Ground explodes around um. Dust and breeze is blown across their armor.

They dust themselves off..and Bob turns and clears his throat as they just ignore the Cannon blast, because their so bad ass.

"So..as I was saying..the Sgt says.."

Maybe thats why they're kinda slow. They need time to talk..and show how bad ass they are ?

Inquisitor Lord Horus
02-03-2007, 16:21
[QUOTE=Hrogoff the Destructor;1344802]Huh? How do you get a daemon prince that has 11 attacks of S7, I6? Does it involve furious charge and the manreaper?QUOTE]

well your dude starts with 3 attacks then give him mark of Khorne thats 4 then Bezercker glaive making 7 then Deamonic mutation making 8 then rage of khorne meaning on a luck charge u get 11 attacks

for strength starts 4 then deamonic strength making 5 them Deamonic stature
making 6 the furius charge giving him 7

for I starts at 5 furius charge makes 6

there you go 11 S7 I6 attacks with no armour saves, see what the SM players say to that...:D

jfrazell
02-03-2007, 16:29
Then some annoying Slaanesh lord with a dreadaxe comes along with warpscream and kills the Khorne boy buahahahah. :)
I just love going first...

MrBigMr
02-03-2007, 16:43
I don't remember who had it, but his sig had a nice quote about Ork Boyz vs. Deathwing terminators. Basicly 120 attacks with maximum of 4+ save.

MrGarm13
03-03-2007, 04:10
I've heard the myth that Space Marines are extremely hard to learn because of "And They Shall Know No Fear."

It was strange to hear that coming from a Daemonhunters player. (They have more rules than Space Marines.)

dblaz3r
03-03-2007, 04:28
i remember in 2nd edition when my brother used to brag about how his termies were unstoppable and they`d take down my ork mobs like a hot knife through butter, I also remember the look on his face everytime I`d fire some snotlings(iirc) from my shokk attack gun straight into his termie suits or many of the other useful tricks I had of dispatching his ubertermies, priceless.