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ss_cherubael
28-02-2007, 10:26
Hi all,
Ive been toying with the idea of buying some AI stuff for a while and i think when i get this weeks pay check i might just do that. Now the thing is i live in Australia which means FW's postage prices are rather high and the shipment will take ages to get here. Due to this im thinking about outlaying for the rule book and two squadrons so i can lend one to a friend and see if i can get some others into the game.
This is where i hope you guys can help, i have no idea about pts and that sort of thing and i want to pick up two equal pts squadrons so i need some help. I want an imperial wing as my main force (i loved double eagle so im guessin phantine atm) and i have no idea about the other force. A) what should i get for the imperial wing? and B) what other force should i get to face off against them?
(PS: not a fan of the ork minis so plz dont suggest them)
thanks in advance people!

Greblord
28-02-2007, 11:12
I bought two forces so friends could play:
Imperial: 4 x thunderbolt 2 x lightning 1 x marauder destroyer
Tau: 4 x barracuda 2 x tiger shark 1 x orca

Hope that helps.

fattdex
28-02-2007, 11:27
i got
Imperial: 4x thunderbolt 2x lightning 2x valkyrie 1x marauder destroyer
Chaos: 6x hellblades 4x helltalons. could even do with another 3 hellblades as they are very cheap points wise!

As a guide, if you wanted to have a 120 point game, you could take an imperial force consisting of 4 thunderbolts and two lightnings with 2 aircraft taking weapons upgrades, and a chaos force consisting of 10 hellblades.

Spacker
28-02-2007, 11:27
It all depends on whether you want a force flexible enough to play every scenario, or whether you want to start small.

Myself, I have 4 Thunderbolts, 2 Lightnings, 2 Marauders, 2 Valkyries, plus ground defences (hydras, manticores, flak guns), for my Imp Navy. I think this is reasonably flexible, although for some scenarios I'll be short on transports or bombers, so I might pick up another pair of Valkyries later on. Total points for aircraft is 176 at base cost, max 230 with optional weapons.

If you don't like Orks that narrows you down to Imp Navy, Eldar, Tau, or Chaos. Marines aren't really worth looking at unless you love the Thunderhawk, as you'll end up using Imp Navy to bulk out their force anyway as the Thunderhawk is a lumbering transport and not much use in air-to-air combat.

Chaos aircraft are very cheap pointswise, so you'll need lots. I'd suggest a 2 Talons and 6 Blades at the minimum, which is 120pts base or 128pts with optional weapon loads on the Talons.

For Tau, the Barracuda is a must. For transport you can use the Tiger Shark, Orca, or Manta. The Manta is overkill at around 100pts on it's own, so is only useful in large games. Taking one scenario as an example, the suggest Tau force is 5 Barracude, 1 Skyray, and 2 Tiger Sharks. I myself have 4 Barracuda, 2 Tiger Sharks, 3 Skyrays (you get 3 in a pack), and a Manta (love the model, and I can proxy it as an Orca as I hate that model :p).

For Eldar you will end up with fewer aircraft - the fighters have high points costs. The Nightwing is an excellent fighter, and is always a better choice than the Phoenix unless you need a multirole fighter than has additional ground attack capability. The Vampire is an excellent choice, but as a Bomber class aircraft cannot be used in half of the scenarios. My own Eldar force is 2 Nightwings, 4 Phoenix, and 2 Vampire Raiders, which is 224 points. You might want to get say 4 Nightwings and 2 Vampires, and skip the Phoenix altogether. The Firestorm isn't out yet, nor are the Vampire Hunters, so you may find that you'll want to wait a bit longer before ordering if you want to go down the Eldar route - the Firestorm is the only ground defence choice (although you could use converted Falcons or the GW Firestorm models, a couple of weeks ago FW sent out an email stating that the Firestorm would be available to pre-order soon), and the Hunter is the Vampire variant that has no transport capability but does have the Pulsars which are a little more nasty than the Pulse Lasers on the Raider, plus it has Missiles for ground attack roles.

Hopefully I've given you some ideas. If you need any more info let me know and I'll be happy to help :)

Tyra_Nid
28-02-2007, 11:49
If you want enough for intro games, you could get some Imperials and Eldar... three vanilla Thunderbolts against two Nightwings would probabaly work alright, although I maintain that Imp vs Ork make for the best intro scenarios.

If you were going for a full squadron, then listen to advice of other people in thread, theyve given you some good ideas.

In regards to this:



i live in Australia which means FW's postage prices are rather high and the shipment will take ages to get here.

Postage isnt *too* bad (especially if you are ordering in small batches), and the shipping is actually rather swift (usually 1-2 weeks for me, in Melb).

Wolflord Havoc
28-02-2007, 11:52
I would definatly base one of the forces around 4 T-bolts and 2 marauders and add additional Lightnings etc as per your wallet!!

As for a secondary force I would suggest either Tau or Eldar as these currently have almost as diverse lists as the Imperial Navy. Again I would base the forces around 4 basic fighter (Barracuda or Nightwing) and 2 heavier craft (T-shark or Phoinex) and add as your wallet can deal with the damage!!

fattdex
28-02-2007, 12:01
I might add that I just ordered some stuff last monday, we did an order with 3 people from my gaming club so that we went over the 250 pound free express postage mark, and the loot arrived in melbourne in one week exactly :) well, some out of stock items had to be sent seperately :)

ss_cherubael
28-02-2007, 12:13
feth me, i was expecting to have to wait a few days for replies. THANK YOU FOR BEING SO QUICK, and thank you for all the advice!

At the moment im thinking 4 x T-bolts, 2 x lightnings and an M-Destoryer hows that sound and what am i looking at to balance that list with eldar and tau as those seem to be the two best options.

I would like chaos but the money side will hurt a tad bit more due to their low pt cost it seems. Tau would be cool and several of the guys i want to try and get to play are tau players so having a tau air wing might push them to play a bit more (and the manta is such a cool mini for later on!). Eldar also seem like a good choice as they seem to require less minis than anyone else so my bank balance would be happier with this and i am liking what im hearing about their speed, seems very cool to me. So if someone could maybe post up a list for eldar and tau that works with that imperial list that would be nice .

As for AA weapons im happy to scratch build them for now or proxy them as they dont seem to be worth buying first off (and the minis arent as exciting).

@Fattdex: last time someone in my group ordered (a baneblade as a birthday pres for me) it took 3 weeks to turn up, last time i personally ordered from them i forked for express postage and pretty much got forked myself, it turned up 4 weeks after i ordered. When i asked them about it they blamed it on Australias customs. i was rather p***ed off.

Also does anyone know if chaos are getting anymore air units any time soon? They only have two and neither seem particularly good from what i hear and they dont cover every type of vehicle do they?

Thanks once again for the fast replies and thanks in advance for this set of questions.

fattdex
28-02-2007, 13:12
Customs laws have changed in the last year or so, the import tax dollar threshold for importing goods including internet purchases has been raised to $1000 now (inc postage) so if your order is below that you will be fine, most likely when you ordered it may have been on or close to the import tax threshold. But the order i put through the other day totaled $930 and arrived a day early :P as I said there were a few things missing from the order as they were out of stock on hellblades and ork aircraft, but the bulk of it came through quickly and the rest is scheduled to arrive on the 5th march.

It does mention in the book, that chaos and orks are less likely to do any troop insertions so for missions where the chaos or ork player is supposed to have a troop lander, they may choose another mission. Maybe chaos will get some anti air tanks in the future (there are lots of non-specific references to new stuff being released in the future), but i don't see why you couldn't just use imperial AAA if you wanted to and call them traitor guard. Personally i plan to build a dreadclaw for a chaos transport and just use the arvus lighter rules. oh and chaos machines aren't that bad stats wise! the fighters only have one hit though they are the cheapest in the game. And dollar wise you get three in a pack instead of two so it isn't that bad ;-)

The simple missions only require fighters, so you will need those as a core for your army. Some missions require the attacker or defender to take at least one bomber or transport, so you don't really need both sides that you want to buy to have a little of everything as you can just decide to make the opposing force the aggressor or defender based on what minis you have available.

ss_cherubael
28-02-2007, 13:18
Thanks for that Fattdex, i didnt realise it had changed. But that wasnt the problem as it was one baneblade (350Aud or so), they opened it and checked it and managed to not only hold the damn thing up but punch a hole in the side of the box which ripped the instructions and the cool certificate that you get.

Back on topic:
Ah i see (regarding the troop carriers). I would like to do chaos but tau and eldar still have more of a pull on me, the range of minis is also a reason.
BTW another question: how do vultures and valks fair in this game as they are gun ships and carriers not planes?

fattdex
28-02-2007, 13:39
I can't vouch for them out of experience, but they are slow, however the vulture can carry a lot of antitank firepower, and the valk packs enough punch just to get it into a defended LZ but not much more- I think they would do very well so long as they had a good fighter escort to protect them.

Wolflord Havoc
28-02-2007, 14:03
Okay a force to Balance 4 Tbolts 2 lightnings and a Mad-D

Right I have come up with the following

Eldar
2 Nightwing
2 Phoenix
1 Vampire Raider

or

4 Nightwing
and 2 Vampires

For Tau

4 Baracudas
2 Tiger Sharks
1 Orca

The points costs are roughly simular and can be amended by including or ignoring extra weapon loads on the Imperial and Tau fighters and the first Eldar and the Tau list give you a diverse force to play missions with.

Also you can use the Vampire and the Tiger shark as Varients instead.

Have fun

Tyra_Nid
28-02-2007, 23:16
Eldar
2 Nightwing
2 Phoenix
1 Vampire Raider

For Tau
4 Baracudas
2 Tiger Sharks
1 Orca


Seconded.

Also, it seems interesting that most Imperial players are getting almost the same thing: 4 T-Bolts, 2 Lightnings, 2 Marauders/1 Destroyer, 2 Valks.

I suppose it allows for the most flexibility, since it allows you to play most missions. Im not exception, either ;)

ss_cherubael
01-03-2007, 01:22
thanks for those two lists wolflord havoc. Very very helpful indeed! I havent decided wether ill get any valks or vultures at this point, i dont see the draw of them besides valks being troop carriers.
At this point im leaning towards Tau as the other army but am in the middle of trying to get my brother to buy the other fighters so we can both get bigger forces instead of me getting two small fighter wings.
Also on the vultures and their tank hunting role are they better at this than the lightning strike fighters?
and would it make sense to drop the lightnings and take either two more T-Bolts or take strike fighters instead? thanks once again to everyone whose helped.

Tyra_Nid
01-03-2007, 01:37
Also on the vultures and their tank hunting role are they better at this than the lightning strike fighters?

Personally I dont see the attraction of Vultures so much as tank hunters, apart from their VTOL/hovering ability. Other planes, with Hellstrikes and strafing, can do just as well.




and would it make sense to drop the lightnings and take either two more T-Bolts or take strike fighters instead?

Lightnings are good. Not as much firepower as T-Bolts, but more maneuverable, and after a few games you will see the advantages in this.

Strike variants, as far as I can tell, are fairly universally seen as a waste, when you can equip regular T-Bolts and Lightnings with Hellstrikes anyway, or use a Marauder and REALLY get the job done.

Plus, when the Strikes missiles are used, its quite useless.

New Cult King
01-03-2007, 01:49
I bought a handful of Imperial and Tau ships, haven't assembled them yet though, too busy working on my LatD army.

It only takes a week or so for FW to deliver to Oz, which is really quite good.

Wolflord Havoc
01-03-2007, 09:18
thanks for those two lists wolflord havoc. Very very helpful indeed! I havent decided wether ill get any valks or vultures at this point, i dont see the draw of them besides valks being troop carriers.
At this point im leaning towards Tau as the other army but am in the middle of trying to get my brother to buy the other fighters so we can both get bigger forces instead of me getting two small fighter wings.
Also on the vultures and their tank hunting role are they better at this than the lightning strike fighters?
and would it make sense to drop the lightnings and take either two more T-Bolts or take strike fighters instead? thanks once again to everyone whose helped.

I would always go for a more diverse force rather than more of the same but its entirely up to you. I would however suggest getting the fighters over the Valks first as they would be more useful in 'normal' air missions.

My group has found that a good mix of aircraft types makes for a good game. I personally (if building an imperial force) would plug for a force of 6 - 8 mixed fighters and a couple of bombers before seeing if my funds would stretch too additional Valks, Arvis landers, Hydras etc.

So for example

4 T-bolts
2 Lightning’s
2 Lightning strikes
1 Marauder
1 Marauder Destroyer

Obviously the Lightning’s and the marauders are interchangeable in games but as all the models are nice its great to have a mix.

ss_cherubael
01-03-2007, 11:14
I like that suggestion wolflord havoc. If i can convince my brother to buy the other wing i may have the funds to put into a wing that is that size. Also Tyra-nid past the comment that strike fighters are a waste as regular T-Bolts and Lightnings can be upgraded with hell strike missiles and normal strafing runs are good enough anyway, apparently. On the back of those comments i would be more inclined to drop the strike fighters for valks as the cost is the same and allows me to play insertion games. What do you guys think of that? At the moment the list is 4 T-Bolts, 2 lightnings, 1 M destoryer and 2 valks. This seem alright? or should i add something and lose something else?
Also on the Tau, if i want a carrier the orca is the only thing atm isnt it? thanks for the on going help people.

Spacker
01-03-2007, 11:41
I like that suggestion wolflord havoc. If i can convince my brother to buy the other wing i may have the funds to put into a wing that is that size. Also Tyra-nid past the comment that strike fighters are a waste as regular T-Bolts and Lightnings can be upgraded with hell strike missiles and normal strafing runs are good enough anyway, apparently. On the back of those comments i would be more inclined to drop the strike fighters for valks as the cost is the same and allows me to play insertion games. What do you guys think of that? At the moment the list is 4 T-Bolts, 2 lightnings, 1 M destoryer and 2 valks. This seem alright? or should i add something and lose something else?


That looks fine, and is exactly what I started with. However, I tend to use my Marauder Destroyer as a Marauder - it's cheaper, and better at air-to-air combat, I just prefer the Destroyer model. Most of the weapons on the Destroyer are ground attack only, but it does have better rear turret firepower. I made the mistake of buying Lightning Strikes - I'll be adding scratchbuilt autocannons to them instead of the centreline hellstrikes, much better at air-to-air combat and still has the option of adding hellstrikes on the wings. To play missions with troop insertion/extraction you'll want those Valkyries.



Also on the Tau, if i want a carrier the orca is the only thing atm isnt it? thanks for the on going help people.

The Tiger Shark (not the AX-1-0) and Manta are also transports.

The Tiger Shark has half the transport capacity of the Orca, but does have Ion cannons and better Missile pods, but worse drone burst cannons and no seeker missile option. It's top speed is higher than the Orca, but cannot hover, and has lower thrust. It's also got a higher points cost, but does have Jump Troops as standard.

The Manta is just complete overkill :P

Wolflord Havoc
01-03-2007, 12:10
I like that suggestion wolflord havoc. If i can convince my brother to buy the other wing i may have the funds to put into a wing that is that size. Also Tyra-nid past the comment that strike fighters are a waste as regular T-Bolts and Lightnings can be upgraded with hell strike missiles and normal strafing runs are good enough anyway, apparently. On the back of those comments i would be more inclined to drop the strike fighters for valks as the cost is the same and allows me to play insertion games. What do you guys think of that? At the moment the list is 4 T-Bolts, 2 lightnings, 1 M destoryer and 2 valks. This seem alright? or should i add something and lose something else?
Also on the Tau, if i want a carrier the orca is the only thing atm isnt it? thanks for the on going help people.

While the Tiger shark does carry 2 units of 'Jump Troops' its not really a troop transporter so yes unfortunatly the Orca is the only realistic option - I would suggest that your brother does get one if you are planning to do insertion missions.

As for Strike lightnings being rubbish - well being 'not as good as Normal lightnings in Air to Air' does not make them rubbish and they carry slightly more ground attack stuff. Try playing a mission where ground defenses i.e. AAA/SAM sites and /or bunkers have to be taken out before the Bombers / Valks arrive. You cannot have an aircraft defending the Bombers/Transports and attacking gound targets at the same time.