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HughbertofKhorne
28-02-2007, 23:58
I suppose there is nothing stopping Orks from worshipping chaos, but how likely is it?

Does an Ork have enough individuality to make the decision to worship? (aside from Nobz and Warbosses that is)

DrDoom
01-03-2007, 04:22
I suppose Orks could worship Chaos, but I think they would do it under the auspices of worshiping Gork.

Quite frankly, Orks do enough to help Chaos out without direct worship.

PondaNagura
01-03-2007, 04:36
actually in the back of the daemonhunter codex, in the adversary section, they give multiple examples as to why DH would be called in against any of the 40k armies...except for themsleves. but it usually comes down to the orks worshipping a totem of nurgle or khorne that just happoens to look like gork (or is it mork)...they give another one or so but i don't have the dex handy at the moment.

Torgo
01-03-2007, 05:24
I don't know about current background. Orks used to be resistant to chaos, but not immune. There were a few types of freebooterz, such as Khornate stormboyz. I think they may have been in Realm of Chaos warbands as well. Mostly, I feel that chaos might grab a few orks here and there, but anything larger than a 40k sized warband is unlikely.

Justicar Jacob
01-03-2007, 05:40
Orks could worship chaos but I'm not so sure they would really do it directly. Like the daemonhunters book said they might mistake the concept of a choas god or an effigy of a chaos god to be gork or mork.

Orks move purley by instinct that is gentic, so them shooting and praising gork is like our hair color or nose shape. There are of course oddities in genetics and mistakes so through whackey coincidences and happenings so in a one and a 4 billion chance there could be ork(s) that could fall to chaos through misunderstanding or something else.

Zedric
01-03-2007, 07:43
ORKS AND CHAOS

There is no predilection for Chaos among the Orks; indeed, Orks are much less likely to turn to Chaos than Humans or other races. This is due to the fact that the Ork race is relatively stable and content. There is little psychic stress or angst among the Orks, which leaves virtually no avenue through which Chaos can invade their minds. Some races confuse Orks as being evil and thus synonymous with Chaos. This is a misunderstanding on their part, however.

Orks are not inherently evil; neither is Chaos. Likewise, Orks do not naturally or consistently affiliate with the forces of Chaos. Orks simply live by the crude survival-of-the fittest principles that pervade the universe. Warlike civilizations, such as that of the Orks, simply reflect these survivalist principles all the more. By the same token, Chaos is neither good nor evil; it simply mirrors the survivalist emotions of intelligent beings in the real universe. Thus, predatory powers of Chaos, be they deities or daemons, exist because living things generate these emotions.

By analogy, there are gargantuan Ork powers in the warp -powers that are the reflections of the Orks' cheerfully irresponsible and warlike nature. At the same time, it is possible for Orks to overindulge their taste for militarism and bloodshed, which will ultimately lead them to Khorne. Indeed, Khorne does feed on these aspects of Orkish character; this shows in the very face of Khorne, which has markedly Orkish aspects.

Most of their enemies would agree that Orks lack many of the finer qualities found in the various races of the universe. Not surprisingly, Orks have no second thoughts about fighting alongside servants of Chaos, especially in return for pay or loot. Orks are not easily impressed by Chaos, since a typical Ork raider is likely to be exposed to manifestations of Chaos as he rampages about the less orderly parts of the galaxy. He is also less liable to be tempted by lure of Chaos power and sell his soul than many other races. This is in contrast to the unfortunate Humans who live in ratholes of hive worlds or desperately trying to build civilizations in inhospitable environments. These suffer from the stress of day-to-day survival. They become suspicious of the unknown and begin to look inwardly to find irrational explanations for their problems and misfortunes.

The gist of it is, none of the Chaos Powers have anything to offer your average Ork. As Uthan the Perverse says in my signature, they have no greed or angst. There is nothing missing in an Ork's life that the Chaos Powers would try and fill.

That said, it used to be that Ork Stormboyz who grew to love carnage too much were susceptible to Khorne, and I've heard fairly compelling arguments for the Kult of Speed obsession with speed and adrenaline leading down the path to Slaanesh, but I still fall back on the idea that no Ork needs anything a Chaos Power can offer.

HughbertofKhorne
01-03-2007, 08:22
Okay I get that, but Gork & Mork actually exist in the Warp yes? So they themselves are not just Chaos Gods "in disguise"? Or have I read that Waaaaagh The Ork excerpt wrong?

masecase
01-03-2007, 15:56
They are more likely lesser aspects of the greater gods, just like Khaine is an semi independent aspect of Khorne, but at the same time of slaanesh, since he is the excess of the violence of the eldars psyche.

HughbertofKhorne
01-03-2007, 16:12
Okay I thought that both the Eldar Gods and the Ork Gods were Old Ones

Lockjaw
01-03-2007, 18:45
you can have chaos orks if you want, it's just that aside from khorne, not alot are gonna make sense for them to follow, maybe nurgle , but that's about it, I don't really see tzeentch orks being that likely

masecase
01-03-2007, 18:54
Gork, Mork and the Eldar gods could have been the Old Ones and still be now part of the Chaos gods. Assuming the Old Ones were an uber-race of psykers their souls should by now make up part of the essence of the chaos gods.

Also, Orks could still unknowingly worshipp Slaanesh. As the god of excess and emotion directed into yourself its quite possible, that an Ork is so orky that he attracts Slaanesh and gets seduced in worshipping it. He would probably just think of it as an vision of Gork or Mork and be happy about the results. Its a quite healthy aproach.

Zedric
01-03-2007, 23:58
Okay I get that, but Gork & Mork actually exist in the Warp yes? So they themselves are not just Chaos Gods "in disguise"? Or have I read that Waaaaagh The Ork excerpt wrong?
Gork and Mork actually exist as a reflection of the collective Orkdom in the Warp. They are more powerful than the Chaos Gods - Orks are the only race that actually produces their own warp energies (colloquially known as WAAAGH! or WAAARGH! if you're old-school) and they also happen to be the most numerous race in the Galaxy, not including any extra-galactic Tyranids.

If Gork and Mork are so powerful, why haven't they conquered the galaxy and made their presence known, you ask? Simple - because like the Ork psyche that comprises their being, they are disorganized, easily distracted, and often too busy scrapping with one another to bother with the powers around them. They're also unconcerned with subjugation of their opponents or domination of the galaxy - like the Orks that created them (moreso even), all they want to do is fight.

Gork and Mork are more easily measured by the strength of galactic Orkdom - they tend to follow their charges around, unlike the other Chaos Powers.

As far as the retconning is concerned, I wouldn't compare Gork and Mork to the Eldar Gods as far as being Old Ones - they are a psychic reflection in the Immaterium, like Khorne or Slaanesh, rather than the progenitors of the species (those would be the Brain Boyz, which are in all likelihood the aforementioned Old Ones).

HughbertofKhorne
02-03-2007, 06:49
werent the brain boyz snotlings or something like that?

ryng_sting
02-03-2007, 07:20
We now know that the Old Ones engineered the Orks (or Krork, as they called them), so it seems probable that the 'brain boyz' were the either the OO themselves, or an intermediary race bred by the OO to command them.

Gork and Mork are real: they're the greenskin's reflection in the warp. Perhaps their territory overlaps that of Tzeentch and Khorne, but I doubt it's much of a problem. Only the Orks generated and sustain their gods, so it might be safe to assume that their emotions and souls are still the sole property of those gods.

Kandarin
02-03-2007, 07:34
Okay I get that, but Gork & Mork actually exist in the Warp yes? So they themselves are not just Chaos Gods "in disguise"? Or have I read that Waaaaagh The Ork excerpt wrong?

No, they're not. And while they're both in the Warp, in some sense they're not even on the same wavelength, so to speak.

The psyches of Eldar, Humans, and many other, lesser races are arranged such that emotions fall between four extremes of hope, despair, rage, and desire. These four concentrations of emotions (as well as countless minor combinations thereof) coalesced into the Chaos Powers we know and love/loathe.

The Ork psyche doesn't work that way. It doesn't have those four extremes. Instead it has only two, which can roughly be approximated by our non-Orky minds as violence and cunning. There is some small degree of overlap with the Human/Eldar spectrum, but it is indeed small, and neither of the Ork extremes have a direct correlation to any one of the Eldar/Human extremes.

Picture the normal spectrum as a flat surface with four corners, and the Ork spectrum as a yin-yang intersecting perpendicularly with it at an edge, if that makes any sense.

HughbertofKhorne
02-03-2007, 09:37
yeah it makes a lot of sense, its just very hard to get out of the mindset that Chaos is the warp, its kinda screamed at you from all directions.

Zedric
02-03-2007, 10:41
Kandarin, that was a beautiful explanation.

We ALL just need to get in tune with the Tao of WAAARGH.

Orcboy_Phil
02-03-2007, 13:35
Lol, sigged.

But coinstidentally, what does it say about the Necrontyr and Old Ones psyche. The inbalance in the warp only occured when the Old Ones started creating and using the younger races to fight the Necrons. The Necrons can be dismissed as like the Tau having little to no Warp presence, but the Old Ones, they where supremely powerful psykers. So they either had a completly balanced mind or there where so few of them that their minds didn't create rippels in the Warp.

Rabid Bunny 666
02-03-2007, 13:41
werent the brain boyz snotlings or something like that?

They were Snotlings who ate special Fungus, but then the Fungus died out, and they remain trapped in their current Juvenile state.

@Kandarin: True, but theres only one difference 'tween Gorkers and Morkers :D

azimaith
02-03-2007, 13:43
Theres no reason to write out Necrontyr as having warp presence of even having psykers among them.

They just weren't as good at it (if they did do it) as the Old Ones. Same way the humans have pskyers but they're still outmaneuvers by Eldar webway gates as easily.

masecase
02-03-2007, 15:15
Its quite probable, that the Old Ones were like the emperor in their psyche. The god of humanity didn't experience negative feelings or feelings at all like normal humans. He had a mind mostly devoid of emotions, due to being the reincarnation of the shamans which were in tune with the harmonous warp.

But since a lot of the old background is by now obsolete, I tend to view the emperor as the reincarnation of the Old Ones except for Cegorah and Khaine.

jp22102000
03-03-2007, 19:00
can orks become possessed or mutated? is it possible for a warp entity to take over an orc pysker? (since they can barley control their powers in the first place)

Iracundus
03-03-2007, 23:03
Yes it is possible for daemonic possession of Orks and Weirdboyz (see old Weirdboy Warpheadz). However it tends to be a raw deal for the daemon as because of their mental resilence and stability there is little room for the daemon to maneuver mentally and few of the fears, quirks, and flaws compared to a human host that a daemon can take advantage of. For Warpheadz in particular who gained in power with little downside except for being a bit more weird and unstable than normal, it was said that it more clearly resembled the daemon being in prison.

Zedric
04-03-2007, 16:32
Iracundus is remembering this:


POSSESSED WARPHEADZ

Occasionally Weirdboy Warpheadz (who have become addicted to the warp and reckless in the use of their psychic powers) become possessed by daemons. This happens because the Weirdboy acts as a natural conduit for warp energy when he uses his power and a daemon can be sucked into him from the warp together with pure warp energy. However this does not result in daemonic possession of the same kind as would occur in a Human psyker. The Ork personality and soul are much more robust and resistant. Orks are resolute and self-knowing and there is almost no weakness in their minds for a daemon to exploit in order to manipulate the host. The daemon is therefore unable to take control and is effectively imprisoned within the Weirdboy with the result that the Weirdboy becomes greatly enhanced. The cost to the Weirdboy is a form of mania in which he appears to be constantly arguing with himself while his mind disputes with the daemonic prisoner within him. The result is a confused Weirdboy almost ecstatic with power sharing his body with a daemon who is very disenchanted with the situation and prone to outbursts of frustrated wailing. Such possessed Weirdboyz are very rare, and usually keep themselves to themselves or are avoided by other Orks. Like other Warpheadz the Possessed Weirdboy does not need Minderz because he actually enjoys using his powers, but unlike ordinary Warpheadz he has no Madboy followers. This is because the Madboyz, in their intuitively accurate way, recognise the daemonic presence in the Warphead and avoid him. Being less psychically attuned, Gretchin and Snotlings are quite willing to serve the Warphead and soon become used to his endless conversations with himself inexplicable poltergeist activity, and occasional outbursts of daemonic wailing.

And mutation is perfectly possible, such as this...


ORK MUTANT MOB

These are Orks who have passed through an accidental influx of the warp or were too close to some kind of deranged Mekaniak or Weirdboy 'eksperiment' that went horribly wrong. The precise cause of the mutations may have been a leak in the force field of a space hulk while travelling through the warp, an experiment with a Shokk Attack Gun that went wrong, or the poltergeist activity of a Weirdboy. Whatever the cause, the result is a group of mutated Orks who do not know what has happened to them but are suddenly treated as outcasts by the tribe. Naturally all those who have suffered in this way tend to go around together, scavenging about on the edges of the settlement. Those that survive longest may degenerate into Chaos Spawn, and these usually lurk as single individuals. Mutant Orks, and especially Spawn, are poor, pathetic and confused creatures. They do not understand why they are different or why the other Orks look at them suspiciously and reject them. On rare occasions, a Warboss will actually allow them to tag along with the Warband so that their mutations and frightening appearance can be used against the enemy. Mutants and Spawn are only too eager to go and will do anything to be amongst 'da Boyz' again.

HughbertofKhorne
04-03-2007, 17:57
Orks!Orks!Orks!Orks!Orks!Orks!Orks!Orks!Orks!Orks!

Thats really cool, is this stuff 2nd ed? where do I find more Orky Fluff!!

Pilgrim
04-03-2007, 18:35
It's 1st edition background. If you can get hold of them, the best sources for Ork background are the ancient books 'Waaargh the Orks', 'Freebooterz', and 'Ere we Go' (of which the latter two are primarily army list books, but with integral background pieces). There are scraps of further background scattered through a lot of other old publications, such as 'Warlords' (for 2nd edition Epic) and 'Gorkamorka' (a standalone game similar to Necromunda).

Bear in mind that there are elements of these books, particularly the 1st edition sources, that do not match up to the newer re-imaging of the Warhammer 40,000 setting and Ork species. Not that this is necessarily a bad thing, but just something that people who are primarily familiar with the new background may want to keep in mind.

Adrian

HughbertofKhorne
04-03-2007, 18:56
Take it thats an Ebay job, not chance of being able to buy them from Games Wrkshop still no?

Gutlord Grom
04-03-2007, 21:29
Gork, Mork and the Eldar gods could have been the Old Ones and still be now part of the Chaos gods. Assuming the Old Ones were an uber-race of psykers their souls should by now make up part of the essence of the chaos gods.

Also, Orks could still unknowingly worshipp Slaanesh. As the god of excess and emotion directed into yourself its quite possible, that an Ork is so orky that he attracts Slaanesh and gets seduced in worshipping it. He would probably just think of it as an vision of Gork or Mork and be happy about the results. Its a quite healthy aproach.

The Old Ones aren't the Chaos gods. The Chaos gods existed at the same time as the Old Ones, though much weaker than their current state. The Old Ones are not one, singular race, and has often to have been thought that they were a federation of enlightened races and beings, sort of like a mega Babylon 5. The 40k Slaan have also ben suggested as a lower race in that galactic order. The Old Onescreated the orks, as the Krork. Only after the Old Ones either died or fled in the War in Heaven or died did the orks begin to come to their current state. And the Enslaver plague didn't help either.

Orks lack the general intelligence to understand and use the worship of Slaanesh. Orks have no need for sexual pleasure, which is often the center of a Slaaneshi cult. They kill on the battlefield, and that is pretty much their one true pleasure. And then that would conflict with Khorne and then you have a problem.

Pilgrim
04-03-2007, 21:35
Take it thats an Ebay job, no chance of being able to buy them from Games Workshop still, no?

Yep, you'd have to hunt around on Ebay (or some other source of second-hand gaming materials). All of those books have been out of print for years.

Adrian