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Wodan.BR
23-07-2005, 21:39
When a cannon hits a unit from the flank, what happens?
The shot simply follows whatever rank it hits, hitting all the models in the rank; or it just hits the models it really passes over?
Long story short, what's the correct, fig A or Fig B, below:

Fig A:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y70/WodanBR/rules/graph2.jpg

Fig B:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y70/WodanBR/rules/graph1.jpg

This has been causing a nice argument around here, because some defend that although B would be more correct, it's easier to play it by the A way.

fubukii
23-07-2005, 22:04
Im pretty sure it would be B

anarchistica
23-07-2005, 22:32
You only hit one model per rank.

heldane
24-07-2005, 00:27
actually its example A.

Its what I refer to as magnetic cannonball. Sucks like hel but you hit the unit in the rank and then go down it.


I think this has been cleared up in one of the warhammer chronicles faq's



Cheers

Dan

anarchistica
24-07-2005, 01:37
actually its example A.

Its what I refer to as magnetic cannonball. Sucks like hel but you hit the unit in the rank and then go down it.

I think this has been cleared up in one of the warhammer chronicles faq's
That's from Gav's warmachine commentary (http://uk.games-workshop.com/chronicles/commentary-war-machines/1/) which i believe isn't exactly "official ruling" (unfortunately). It's an easier method, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense IMHO, especially not because of the pictures used in the example (they only make it worse).

You could interpret it pretty much anyway you want it, but IMHO my interpretation is the very strictest interpretation of the rules. The "template" covers models from 3 ranks, so you hit 3 models.

Geetarman
24-07-2005, 08:33
I think its about as official as it gets... I would pick A

Gman

Sylass
24-07-2005, 08:41
Wasn't there an article about that in one of the Chronicles too? I can't check cause I'm not at my place, but I'm 99,99% sure in the article they used a diagramm like the one marked as "A" to explain how a situation like that should be solved.

Zeb
24-07-2005, 09:52
Chronacles 2002 p. 20; gives the answer A.

anarchistica
24-07-2005, 10:48
The real question is...why wasn't this printed in Chronicles 2004? And why can't you get it from their site? Or, in other words, is this still official? And will GW ever do something right? :p

Geetarman
24-07-2005, 10:51
The real question is...why wasn't this printed in Chronicles 2004? And why can't you get it from their site? Or, in other words, is this still official? And will GW ever do something right? :p

The answer?


Na :D

Gman

Griefbringer
24-07-2005, 11:24
The real question is...why wasn't this printed in Chronicles 2004? And why can't you get it from their site?

As for not being printed in Chronicles 2004, it is probably due to the same GW incompetence that made them not to include any Albion campaign related stuff.

However, they actually have that war machine commentary on their website:

http://uk.games-workshop.com/chronicles/commentary-war-machines/1/

T10
24-07-2005, 12:35
When a cannon hits a unit from the flank, what happens?
The shot simply follows whatever rank it hits, hitting all the models in the rank; or it just hits the models it really passes over?
Long story short, what's the correct, fig A or Fig B, below:

(...)

This has been causing a nice argument around here, because some defend that although B would be more correct, it's easier to play it by the A way.

Actually, neither.

You score one hit for each model touched, but only a maximum of one per rank touched.

Since you are firing at the flank, each column now counts as a rank.

You wil note that the cannon ball exits before it has touched each rank (column) in the unit, thus it is limited in the number of models it can hit.

Though the angle of the shot means that in some ranks (colums) the shot actually passes through two models, you only score a hit on one of them.

The cannon ball passes through 8 models, but only 6 ranks (columns). Thus only 6 models are affected.


-T10

Tarax
24-07-2005, 13:47
T10 is right.

You hit only one model per rank (or file if shooting from the flank). However, if the cannonball leaves the unit before it has reached the final rank, than only the ranks which it has travelled through are affected.

The reason why this is in the Annual 2002 and not beyond, is probably because it's an article and not a Q&A, FAQ or something like that.

Wodan.BR
24-07-2005, 16:17
That's from Gav's warmachine commentary (http://uk.games-workshop.com/chronicles/commentary-war-machines/1/) which i believe isn't exactly "official ruling" (unfortunately). It's an easier method, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense IMHO, especially not because of the pictures used in the example (they only make it worse).

You could interpret it pretty much anyway you want it, but IMHO my interpretation is the very strictest interpretation of the rules. The "template" covers models from 3 ranks, so you hit 3 models.

The pictures are terrible, because when they show the cannon hitting the whole rank, the cannon is exactly in front of the rank it wipes out. So it kind of leaves to imagination what might happen when it hit on a diagonal.

By the way, how official are WD rulings? I'm asking, because all this discussion started after a rule clearing in the january Spanish WD, which was totally different from Gav's clearing in the web site.

Well, at least GW rules make their own staff as confused as the rest of us :rolleyes:

Wodan.BR
24-07-2005, 16:21
Actually, neither.

You score one hit for each model touched, but only a maximum of one per rank touched.

(...)

The cannon ball passes through 8 models, but only 6 ranks (columns). Thus only 6 models are affected.


-T10
Hi T10, I really agree with your interpretation, but Gav wrote the opposite in the web site article about warmachines.
There he says that the only reason for the wording "on model in each rank only" is just to prevent somebody from claiming that the cannal ball passes exactly between two models hitting them both.

anarchistica
24-07-2005, 19:39
The pictures are terrible, because when they show the cannon hitting the whole rank, the cannon is exactly in front of the rank it wipes out. So it kind of leaves to imagination what might happen when it hit on a diagonal.
Exactly.


By the way, how official are WD rulings? I'm asking, because all this discussion started after a rule clearing in the january Spanish WD, which was totally different from Gav's clearing in the web site.
As far as i understand the commentary isn't official.


Well, at least GW rules make their own staff as confused as the rest of us :rolleyes:
And we're not even talking about redshirts. :eek:

Griefbringer
25-07-2005, 15:30
I'm asking, because all this discussion started after a rule clearing in the january Spanish WD, which was totally different from Gav's clearing in the web site.


Well, the Spanish version of WHFB is claimed to be totally different from the English version in most aspects...

Not speaking Spanish, I have not been able to check this out myself.

Atrahasis
27-07-2005, 07:58
Hi T10, I really agree with your interpretation, but Gav wrote the opposite in the web site article about warmachines.

No, he didn't. Gav specifies a maximum number of models that can be hit. That maximum will not always be attained.

The cannonball is a template, and hits the models it covers, and no more.
It is further limited to one model per rank or file (depending on the arc which it is firing from).

AKBandito
27-07-2005, 11:31
From the cannon rules 'everything under the line' is hit.
but then gw put out chronicles 2002 contradicting this,
so i would say, contrary to the rules, its A.

Atrahasis
27-07-2005, 11:39
From the cannon rules 'everything under the line' is hit.
but then gw put out chronicles 2002 contradicting this,
so i would say, contrary to the rules, its A.

Chronicles 2002 DOES NOT contradict the rulebook (at least not so far as the cannon is concerned). If you think it does, please quote the passage.

Wodan.BR
27-07-2005, 12:42
No, he didn't. Gav specifies a maximum number of models that can be hit. That maximum will not always be attained.

The cannonball is a template, and hits the models it covers, and no more.
It is further limited to one model per rank or file (depending on the arc which it is firing from).
Actually he clearly did:


The cannon rules on page 122 of the Warhammer rulebook contains the line, 'When a cannon ball collides through a unit, only one model per rank is hit'. This has, understandably, caused some players to think that a unit hit in the flank by a cannon (enfilading fire, for you word buffs) will only ever lose one model out of a rank (see diagram 5).

Actually, the rule is written that way because the imaginary line that traces the course of the cannon ball is infinitely thin, and therefore cannot pass between two models and affect them both (see diagram 6).

So, according to gav more than one model is hit in the same rank or file.

Atrahasis
27-07-2005, 12:45
So, according to gav more than one model is hit in the same rank or file.

How do you get from "cannot ... affect them both" to "more than one model is hit"?

Wodan.BR
27-07-2005, 13:07
How do you get from "cannot ... affect them both" to "more than one model is hit"?

From the following bit:

This has, understandably, caused some players to think that a unit hit in the flank by a cannon (enfilading fire, for you word buffs) will only ever lose one model out of a rank (see diagram 5).


If it has caused some players to think this, it means that it isn't the truth.

And then he continues


Actually, the rule is written that way because the imaginary line that traces the course of the cannon ball is infinitely thin, and therefore cannot pass between two models and affect them both

Saying that the only reason for the wording "it hits one model from a rank" is to avoid the cannon from being used, lets say, between two ranks and hitting both.

Atrahasis
27-07-2005, 13:34
Nooooooooooooooooooo.

He is merely pointing out that when a cannon fires from the flank, the limit is one model per column as opposed to per rank as it would be if the cannon fired from the front or rear.


So, according to gav more than one model is hit in the same rank or file.

According to Gav, more than one model can be hit per file if the cannon is to the front or rear, or per rank if the cannon is to the flank. Never both.