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Rathstar
04-03-2007, 20:18
Hi,

I used play with a TzBeastlord, but wanted to use bestigors.

Previously I always thought that basic bestigors were a bit pants, so concluded to make them worthwhile I would use Khorngors and give them a BSB with the beast banner.

I didn't want an all khorne list so I decided to go undivided with the only unit not undivided being the bestigors. To counter the slow speed of the bestigors I would add a character with the dark heart (+D3 charge distance) and use magic to get them in.

Anyway here's the list I came up with, please rip it apart:

Great Bray Shamen (Undivided)
Dispel Scroll, Power Stone, Staff of Darkoff, Chaos armour

[This guy stays in the beastherd close to the bestigors, and tries to help get them into combat with the spell from the staff or unseen lurker if he rolls it up. The power stone is to give the opponent a surprise, and chaos armour should mean that he can go into combat with support units ok]

Bray Shamen (Undivided)
Dispel Scroll, Goretooth

[This guys stays with the shamen, bears angering himself, the great shamen or one of the characters in the bestigor unit]

Wargor (Khorne)
Great weapon, hand weapon, shield, Crimson armour of Dargan, Dark Heart

Wargor Battle Standard Bearer (Khorne)
Beast Banner, Heavy armour

16 Bestigor (Khorne)
Full Command, War Banner

[These 3 are the surprise I hope will crush the opponents hard units. They deploy 6x3 and will generate 18 str 6 attacks and 5 str 4 attacks on the charge, start combat with a combat res of 5, and have a charge range of 11-13". Hopefully with hounds screening and diverting units for the them, furies being annoying, and minotaurs, dragons and chariots appearing threatening the enemy may not pay them enough attention until it's too late]

6 Gor & 16 Ungor Beastherd
Full Command

5 Hounds

5 Hounds

5 Hounds

[used to screen and divert units to help the bestigors get in]

Tuskgor Chariot (Undivided)

Tuskgor Chariot (Undivided)

4 Minotaurs (Undivided)
Great weapons

[The 4 undivided minos and the chariots would put the enemy under pressure and would hopefully split up his batttle line for when the bestigors hit]

6 Furies

[basic war machine hunting duty and in the absense of war machines can go after archers/hand gunners or sacrifice themselfs to set up nice charges for the bestigor]

3 Dragon Ogres
Great Weapons

[again another fast unit to put the enemy under pressure quickly]

Total Pts: 2000
Magic: 8 Power dice, 8 Dispel Dice & 2 Scrolls


Have I got too many pts in the bestigors, with the 2 characters there will be over 600 pts in those 18 models ?

Is my opponent likely to see the threat of the bestigors coming, or are they likely to be distracted by the minotaurs, dragon ogres and chariots ?

Advice and criticism appreciated.

Rathstar

Bull
04-03-2007, 21:02
I think that your enemy will see the main threat, as both dragon ogres and minotaurs (without a std) are realisticly only flanking units. I think that you need at least 1 more herd as the single 1 you have I would place directly in front of your bestigors as you can see through them and it means that you have something quicker there to charge any enemy units sent to pull them, and also have a good shot at winning. I wouldn't rely on magic as after the first turn your opponent will shut it down (with scrolls if they aren't a magic high army).

Your army looks too much like a flanking force, or support for the 1 big unit. The only other unit in there that I would target would be the herd with 2 shammies, if someone charges that with some heavy cavelry or a lord on dragon you'll be up **** creek without a paddle.

I think 1/2 other mainstay units (herds cos they're cheaper and still rank up) will do your army wonders. Especially as suddenly you can use them to come in from the sides with their special rules which will place your op's defencive/offencive line in dissaray.

I don't know, these are just ideas and I could be wrong, I've never played beasts.

theDarkGeneral
05-03-2007, 00:01
Hmmm...looks like the same list posted on the Herdstone site...


*Great Bray-Shaman: Uh, this is different...as your general? Why not a Beastlord? If you want to fight in CC, don't rely on Magic Items or Spells to do your work...but if you want to "zap" people, then give him some items to help him along the way...3x Powerstones, a Spell Familiar and some Chaos Armor with a normal Bray-Staff would work...


*Wargor of Blood: Ok, a bit of an abuse in some ways...Hvy Armor, Pelt of Dark Young and the Dark Heart a better combo...w/Grt Wpn of course...

*Bray-Shaman: Keep up the Magical Assault if that's what you want, so the Power Familiar or Staff of Katam are good choices.

*Wargor BSB of Blood: Nice, combo I use all the time...

*Khorngors: Good, but the War Banner is ok, the Vitriolic Totem is better...

*Beast Herd: Ok...

*Warhounds: Maybe 1 unit of 8 to 10 models...

*Tusk Chariots; Ok, just slow...

*Minotaurs: Great unit, I like unit champs...

*Chaos Furies: Great unit, just a bit small to be effective in late game play.

*Dragon Ogres: Another great unit, but will attract a lot of attention...


Hope this helps....

Rathstar
07-03-2007, 01:11
Hi,

Thanks for the comments. I've taken on board the comments here (and from other boards :) ) and realise that with 2 characters sitting in the bestigors they are going to seem as the main threat and will therefore see most of the enemy's attention. With only a 5+ save they won't last long.

The basic wargor in the unit was only there to give them the dark heart so they'd be more likely to get the charge. He doesn't really add much combat punch to the unit. Taking him out would only drop the unit to 16 str 6 and 5 str4 attacks on the charge (still overkill against nearly all units). Losing the basic wargor would allow me to add two small herds as support to chase off diverting units and screen the bestigors.

Do you think with only a BSB with them and small herds to screen them the bestigors will face less attention ? Will the army be better with the addition of two small herds ?

I took the magic not to blast the enemy, but to help me get the charge, and get bear's anger off on the BSB when he was in combat (the powerstone being a nice surprise to help this happen).

On the war banner vs poison on the bestigors my thoughts were that on average I would get roughly 3 poison hits on average on the charge with the Vitriolic Totem, against T3 or T4 opponents there's only roughly 50:50 chance that they won't all wound, therefore I thought that a guaranteed +1 combat res was better than occassionly 1 extra wound.

Here's the amended list, do you think it's better:

Lvl 4 Great Bray Shamen (Undivided, goes for Shadow hoping to get Unseen Lurker) - 306
Gore Tooth, Power Stone, Dispel Scroll, Choas Armour, Bray Staff

Lvl 2 Bray Shamen (Undivided, goes for beast for bear's anger) - 160
Staff of Darkoff, Power Stone

Wargor BSB (Khorne) - 184
Beast Banner, Heavy Armour

5/15 Beastherd (Full Command) - 130

5/8 Beastherd (Musician) - 72

5/8 Beastherd (Musician) - 72

17 Khorngors - 304
Full Command, War Banner

5 Hounds - 30

5 Hounds - 30

5 Hounds - 30

Tuskgor Chariot - 85

Tuskgor Chariot - 85

4 Minotaurs (Undivided) - 184
Great Weapons

6 Furies - 90

3 Dragon Ogres - 237
Light armour, Great Weapons

Total Pts: 1999
Magic: 8 Power Dice (& 2 Power Stones), 7 Dispel Dice (& 1 Dispel Scroll)

Is this list better ?

Rathstar

Bull
07-03-2007, 01:47
On the war banner vs poison on the bestigors my thoughts were that on average I would get roughly 3 poison hits on average on the charge with the Vitriolic Totem, against T3 or T4 opponents there's only roughly 50:50 chance that they won't all wound, therefore I thought that a guaranteed +1 combat res was better than occassionly 1 extra wound.

Ok, hold on here.

16 attacks say 3 of your hits are 6's right? That's 3 automatic wounds at strength 6. Against a basic unit that 3 definate wounds, against a unit of Bretonian knights that's 2 definate wounds. I would say that the average is in the poison's favour. Also maybe another 1 at strength 4 which could mean that you have 4 wounds before all your other hits are rolled.

That army list is better, but not because your enemy isn't going to see the problem, but because you have more to be able to solve any problems that you might face. Just remember to place one of those sheilding units directly infront of the Khorngor and remember to charge something with them when you charge with the Khorngor, even if its not in range because this will allow them to be moved out of the way of the Khorngor before you move them.

Rathstar
07-03-2007, 16:04
Hi,

The thing with poison is that it generally helps lower strength troops more, as they have more differculty wounding.

Rolling 3 or 4 sixes with bestigors will only increase the average number of wounds by less than 1 if they would wound anyway on a 2+.

Crunching the numbers comparing khorne bestigors with war banner vs the Vitriolic Totem (in 6 wide formation with a BSB) shows that the Vitriolic Totem only adds on average less than one kill against basic troops (T4 or lower, 4+ save or worse). Against troops with a better armour save it helps even less. Below is a breakdown of the average casualties caused by the 6s to hit (poisoned hits) with and without the Vitriolic Totem:


Against T4 or lower, and 4+ save or worse:
Khorngors with Vitriolic Totem = 3.2 casulties (from 6's to hit)
Khorngors with War Banner = 2.5 casulties (from 6's to hit), totalling 3.5 combat res

Against Bret Knights T3, 2+ save
Khorngors with Vitriolic Totem = 2.1 casulties (from 6's to hit)
Khorngors with War Banner = 1.6 casulties (from 6's to hit), totalling 2.6 combat res

Regarding your other pts I think I'll take yours and others advice and leave the BSB out of the Khorngors when I don't think I need such an overkill unit, as it allows me to have a harder beast herd unit as well as the bestigors.

Rathstar

MarcoPollo
08-03-2007, 16:00
A tzeetch wargor with the bsb-poison banner can be effective in a herd that is really large. About 160 pts for 3 poison attacks, 2 level 2 spells and the BSB is alright.

Plus, I never really worry about protection on wagors much. Just the 4pt heavy armor is fine. How you position them in the beastherd when fighting starts is the real key to protecting them well.