PDA

View Full Version : So Im Starting a Orc/Gobblin Army



BabyRico23
06-03-2007, 01:45
Hello ive been painting Warhammer miniatures for a 3-4 years now and have collected a couple of armies however I have never actually played a game. I dont even know the rules. I just bought Bfsp and plan on starting a orcs and gobblins army to not just paint but to play with as well and i had a few questions.

1.)fluff wise do night goblins mix with orcs? i ask because i love the night goblin miniatures but hate the regular gobbos so there will be none of them in my army.

2.)In a 2000 point army what would be a good ratio of orcs:gobblins?

3.)Are war machines necesary to put forth a competitive force in a greenskin army?

thanks in advanced

dominic_carrillo
06-03-2007, 01:57
1) yes
2) alot of both
3) no, but few armies can swing games with war machines alone

boardbox
06-03-2007, 02:39
Of course night goblins and orcs mix. How else are da boyz gonna get their squig feast?

As far as ratio goes, anything works. Just make sure you take a lot (especially gobbos cause they'll make your army's wound characteristic skyrocket and it's a lotta fun to watch elf players stare in disbelief as you field 80+ goblins and have orc regiments sitting off to the side of the table).

War machines...you don't really need them but I think the stone throwers are nice to have on hand if you feel like a change of pace.

edit: that blue link stuff is annoying

feeder
06-03-2007, 03:42
Yes, of course. Your Night Gobbo's live IN the mountain, your Orcs live ON the mountain. Every so often they get together and go wreck stuff.

My 2000 pt list usually has 3 NG units of 35-40, and 2 Orc units of 20-30. But I also take two or three minumum sized units of NG, just to psych my opponent out as to where I'm hiding my fanatics.

Spear Chukkas are GREAT. They are dirt cheap and you get them two per special slot. In my 2000pt list I usually take four. Concentrate your fire (ie, fire them all at the same unit) as Gobbos are not very good at hitting the target.

Rock Lobbas are also good, but you have to be a very good range guesser for them to be effective.

Consider adding a Boar Chariot or two. A combined charge of double choppa armed Orcs led by the Warboss and a Boar Chariot will ruin anyone's day.

Good luck with your greenies! Remember: "Orcs is never beaten. If we die, we die, so it don't count. If we run away, we will fight again, so it don't count neither!"

BabyRico23
06-03-2007, 04:22
thanks for all the responses...a couple more questions are black orcs worth the points? what about boar boyz and giants?

After Shock
06-03-2007, 05:18
My other army I am building while I am building my TK army is a Gobblin Army.
However unlike you I am not taking any orcs and going strictly with gobblins, snotlings, and the lower life forms.

I want swarms of crazy idiots that may run away when a fly farts or charge recklessly at something that views it as an appetizer. The orks just did not fit into this theme of mine unfortunately. And to make matters worse I do not think I want any wolves, giants, or other oddities aside from squigs. I may take a lobber or two just to increase the chances of messing myself up even more. I really wanted something a whole lot less serious than my TK army and a lot more whimsical.

Only downside is I will need to paint and model a boat load and a half of mini's. Oh did I mention I do not want any mini to look identical to any other mini? So that means many minor conversions and very little assembly line painting.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
06-03-2007, 07:56
Welcome to The Green :). As for your questions....

Black Orcs are worth their points, I believe, as long as you spend the rest of the points in your army wisely. Blorcs don't need a character to do their job...and this works to your benefit as they do better in an army that spent more points on troops than on characters. For their price, one should try to make up for it elsewhere. Normal orc boyz, however, are still a better buy and always will be. However, the points you put into blorcs are for a superior armor, leadership and versatility (really hitty or lots of hitty attacks). Also, they're free of the army's main trait (not a flaw): animostiy.

Boar Boyz do well in mobile armies (higher proportion of wolf riding core troops than usual...heavy and light varieties have worked well w/ BB in my experience). What I found to be a good gambit in a mobile army was putting a warboss (never a black orc) in the unit along with Gork's flag and upgrading to big 'uns (5-9 strong depending on battle and circumstances). When the waaagh is called and you charge with them that turn (and they're guaranteed to pass, having the general in the unit) they have a potential 26" charge range (it's closer to 21, in reality) which, if used wisely, can catch your opponent with his pants down. Having a mobile army with a mounted warboss is key, that way they can keep up with his unit (with ease since wolfboyz move faster) and use his Ld.

Terror is fun against low ld troops (bret peasants with no nearby knights come to mind). Giants are funny and rarely make their points back but are still beneficial to the battle. I dunno, not the best buy out there, but definitely not the worst.

All in all, as a greenskin general for a fair number of years, the 7th ed book is a solid affair. It's not as balanced as some believe it should be, but honestly, all the options are viable and no troop is a true waste of points. If used correctly (and with some not-bad-luck on all the dice you're rolling), the army is a lot of fun and rewarding to play (at least as much as it is fustrating).

Avian
06-03-2007, 09:06
1.)fluff wise do night goblins mix with orcs?
Yes, they do.


2.)In a 2000 point army what would be a good ratio of orcs:gobblins?
About 1:1.


3.)Are war machines necesary to put forth a competitive force in a greenskin army?
Yes, they are.


are black orcs worth the points?
No, at twice the cost of an Orc Boy with okay equipment they are not worth the points.


what about boar boyz
Boar Boyz have been deliberately overpriced to encourage you to take more Orc Boyz. I suggest you take the hint. ;)


and giants?
Giants are variable - good against armies with little firepower and easy VPs for opponents with lots of missile troops and war machines.

More: Orcs & Goblins Tactics page (http://folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/subpage.php?s=index_greenskin_tactics)

Franco
06-03-2007, 15:39
Hello ive been painting Warhammer miniatures for a 3-4 years now and have collected a couple of armies however I have never actually played a game. I dont even know the rules. I just bought Bfsp and plan on starting a orcs and gobblins army to not just paint but to play with as well and i had a few questions.

1.)fluff wise do night goblins mix with orcs? i ask because i love the night goblin miniatures but hate the regular gobbos so there will be none of them in my army.

2.)In a 2000 point army what would be a good ratio of orcs:gobblins?

3.)Are war machines necesary to put forth a competitive force in a greenskin army?

thanks in advanced

I would say to concentrate on buying core units. 2 big units of orcs should be included!!! War machines are ok, my rock lobber is ok and i have been told that spear chukkas are good at slaying dragons.

Talonz
07-03-2007, 15:05
Quote 3.)Are war machines necesary to put forth a competitive force in a greenskin army?
Yes, they are.

Do tell. Im not seeing this at all. War machines are generally risky buys, they can be good if they work just right, but suck otherwise (never hit/blow up or get countercharged as chariots). I see no reason for O&G to need WM.



Originally Posted by BabyRico23
are black orcs worth the points?
No, at twice the cost of an Orc Boy with okay equipment they are not worth the points.


If I add orcs to my all goblin army, black orcs are one of the first units I would add. Higher WS, ST, heavy armour, immunity to animosity, automatic Waagh and 'armed to da teef' all add up in a hurry.

warlord hack'a
07-03-2007, 15:41
black orcs are worth the points when they have a good chance of getting into combat. If they are surrounded by nigh goblins with no other high-points-per-model target aroudn they are not worth their points as they will be shot to pieces.

as for warmachines, it is the only decent shooting you can get apart from ruglud's armoured orcs, so yes I think they fill an important role in my army: taking down some knights for those areas that do not have fanatic defence, shotting at enemy chariots, skirmishers (doomdiver is good for this), lone models and big nasty flying things.. They are not the greatest machines around but boy are they the cheapest!

warlord hack'a
07-03-2007, 15:42
oh yes, I almost forgot (how could I!), try out savage orcs and see if you like them! I love them adn my opponents hate them, what more do you want!

Avian
07-03-2007, 16:14
Do tell. Im not seeing this at all. War machines are generally risky buys, they can be good if they work just right, but suck otherwise (never hit/blow up or get countercharged as chariots). I see no reason for O&G to need WM.
I have a lengthy article on Greenskin Artillery (http://folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/tactics/orc_artillery.php) on my website.



If I add orcs to my all goblin army, black orcs are one of the first units I would add. Higher WS, ST, heavy armour, immunity to animosity, automatic Waagh and 'armed to da teef' all add up in a hurry.
Nah, it still does not add up to twice as good as an Orc Boy. Considering all the other nice Special choices greenskins get, the same amount of points spent on Boyz is a much better investment.

Talonz
07-03-2007, 20:21
I have a lengthy article on Greenskin Artillery (http://folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/tactics/orc_artillery.php) on my website.

Nice work. I dont see anything in it however illustrating how it is necesary to have warmachines in an O&G army to be competitive. O&G war machines are strictly subpar imho. By giving up machines you give up the chance to whittle down soft targets/nail hard targets but also gain more soft/hard units yourself. Theoretically, that should all even out in the end.




Nah, it still does not add up to twice as good as an Orc Boy. Considering all the other nice Special choices greenskins get, the same amount of points spent on Boyz is a much better investment.

How much value do you put on animostiy immunity/auto waagh though? You just cant buy those things normally (but for certain bosses, which cause you hits to overcome animosity, or your general, which you must have anyways), so Id say it is very value relative.

boardbox
07-03-2007, 20:57
That problem I found with black orcs in the last edition wasn't that they weren't worth the cost so much as they ate up too many points and left you with too few bodies. Now take into consideration they got more expensive.

Animosity isn't quite the huge disadvantage people tend to make it seem. Sure, it'll cost you a game here or there but you can limit the damage it does and usually can compensate for any damage it does do...usually. Besides, they're orcs. I wouldn't want an orc army if it actually did what I told to do flawlessly.

If you have big orc units wouldn't you get the waagh anyway? I don't have the new book but don't you add your rank bonus to that roll? Would any self respecting orc warboss send his boys into battle with less than 4 ranks?

Mazdug
07-03-2007, 22:53
I would think, in regards to black orcs, that their real strength lies in the ability to fight things that would just destroy other orcs with little trouble. Against things like Iron breakers, Hammerers, Empire Greeatswordsmen, Chaos Warriors, and other elites, having your own elites seems like a reasonable Idea. I'm not going to say that Black Orcs are as good as all those units, but I would think they might actually hold it up for a while and stay in the fight, maybe even cause a few casualties, rather then just getting chopped up and running off. I suppose, to provide my own counter arguement, you could, for the price of a full size unit of black orcs (say 25), get 2 units of 25 regular orcs, who could win such fights with combined charges, but I don't know how well that works out when your troops are semi unreliable, and against heavily armoured opponents who can shrug off the lower strength orcs attacks, especially after the first round of combat.

Bull
08-03-2007, 00:00
Ok for arguements sake lets take a unit of 20 Black orks in static combat against a unit of 40 orc boys, that way people don't go "but what would happen in blah charged" mmk

5 wide 4 ranks

7 wide 6 ranks

The black orcs go with the additional attack option and with a champion do 3 wounds so 3 orcs die leaving only 4 to fight back, they with a champion do a whole 1 wound which isn't saved. Black orcs win by 1 orc mob unit runs away.

Now split that unit into 2 units with only 1 having a command.

20 black orcs charge using Waagh because their controller knows that they need to and also knows it will automatically work. Black orcs go for the double weapon and with a champion kill 3 orcs again, this time there are only 2 orcs alive, 1 hit which because we're nice wounds. Black orcs win combat by 3 orcs leg it but aren't cut down. Orc turn the other unti turns and faces, the other orcs regain composure but are then charged and this time are run down. Black orcs turn in their turn and are charged by other unit of 20 with no std or champion or musician. Black orcs take chopper and sheild, they take 1 loss and then cause 2. Black orcs win by 2 orcs stand their ground, next round the orcs lose 2 more, don't do **** back and leg it, run down.

I'm sorry, where are they more useful?

If your opponent hits a soft unit of orcs with an elite unit they are going to die, then your opponent is behind you and can turn to your rear. The above example doesn't take into consideration the unit of 5 wolf boys that charge the rear of the second unit which then allows the black orcs to kill them, then join another combat which they then win as well.

Black orcs rule.[dice0]

Avian
08-03-2007, 09:15
I'm sorry, where are they more useful?
Good grief. How about you use a realistic example instead? And include more than just the close combat phase. You are for example conveniently forgetting that Black orcs are easy to shoot up on the way in, which means that the unit's effectiveness is reduced.


More realistic example:

15 Black orcs (AtdT, HA) with standard and musician: 213 pts
30 Orc Boyz (CH, SH, LA) with full command: 210 pts

On their way across the battlefield, both units take, say 4 wounds from missile fire and magic. This is a bit optimistic on behalf of the Black Orcs, since they are more likely to be shot up, but we will leave it equal. This means that when the units reach combat, there are 11 Black Orcs and 26 Orc Boyz remaining. If you are lucky, the units may take less damage, but in any case, the chance of the Black Orcs getting into combat with no damage at all is pretty slim, which means that they will most likely start with 2 fewer ranks than the Boyz.

Assuming Black Orcs charge (most likely event)
Black Orcs strike first and do an average of 3.7 wounds
Orc Boyz strike back and do an average of 0.73 wounds
Orc Boyz have 2 more ranks and outnumbering, so the result is a draw

Assuming Orc Boyz charge (a bit less likely)
Orc Boyz strike first and do an average of 1.5 wounds
Black Orcs strike back and do an average of 2.6 wounds
Orc Boyz have 2 more ranks and outnumbering, so the result is a win by about 2 points for the Boyz


So yeah, Black Orcs are unimpressive considering how easy it is to get VPs from them and the fact that they take up a Special choice.




By giving up machines you give up the chance to whittle down soft targets/nail hard targets but also gain more soft/hard units yourself. Theoretically, that should all even out in the end.
Theoryhammering. :p
Greenskin artillery is great at dealing with all those things that are too tough for the rest of the army to deal with (big flying monsters, really nasty knights, highly tooled up dwarf infantry, etc.), and so cheap that it does not matter overly much if they don't do anything extraordinary all the time.



How much value do you put on animostiy immunity/auto waagh though?
Not much, considering that I tend to bring Black Orc characters anyway. Even unaided, Animosity is not such a problem for large units of Boyz, who can afford to squabble for a turn and get charged rather than charging and who Waaagh on a 3+ at worst anyway.

warlord hack'a
08-03-2007, 12:20
Avian, it's getting boring but I once again completely agree with you, thank you for saving me the time to undermine the example of Bull, who only showed that elite infantry man for man (not points for points) in single combat can defeat inferior infantry.

And I do not even have to mention that Svg orc big uns with spears, who cost the same as black orcs, will statistically beat black orcs in close combat no matter who charges who. If you want elite infantry for orcs & gobbo's, get svg orc big uns

Talonz
09-03-2007, 17:35
Greenskin artillery is great at dealing with all those things that are too tough for the rest of the army to deal with (big flying monsters, really nasty knights, highly tooled up dwarf infantry, etc.), and so cheap that it does not matter overly much if they don't do anything extraordinary all the time.

They are not great. They're incredibly average (and thats just not good enough) bolt throwers and stone throwers, but for the doom diver. I dont see either one dealing with big flyer monsters that well either, which you can counter with your own or big ranks/fanatics. Knights? Same again. Dwarven infantry you will just whittle down slightly, not 'deal' with them.

Im not saying the orcy arty cant have an effect, they can. But to say you have to take them to be competitive is over the top. I dont plan on taking average artillery (that can blow up or spend the game firing for effect anwyays) but I do plan on being somewhat competitive with my goblins.




Not much, considering that I tend to bring Black Orc characters anyway. Even unaided, Animosity is not such a problem for large units of Boyz, who can afford to squabble for a turn and get charged rather than charging and who Waaagh on a 3+ at worst anyway.

Yeah black orc characters, the cheap and easy bandaid solution. Its a shame really that the other characters get marginalized so easily given their animosity rule. Still, it is costing you casualties to do that.

And squabbling is a problem if you are trying to coordinate charges, or cover your flanks, etc. It might not be an issue if they get charged, but it is if you didnt effectively support your own charge or get left behind as your nonsquabbling units get ganged up on. Black orcs eliminite this issue, which makes them very attractive imo.

But yeah, twice the cost is probably a little too much.

Heretic Burner
10-03-2007, 03:27
1. Sure NG and orcs can mix, why not? It is a bit more iffy with savage orcs and NG but a good Waaagh can bring together tribes of all types of greenskins. Go nuts.

2. Goblins are particularly poor in 7th edition. If you really want to do your best to win, I would certainly go heavier on orcs. We are talking your bog standard orcs here. The more savage, black, boar, or any other way you go the poorer your army will tend to do. Most are dreadful units.

3. Competitive O&G? Wrong army. Going heavy on warmachines certainly isn't going to change that fact one way or another. O&G machines, as has been mentioned before, are very average. Taking them for the heck of it is a waste of points, they are there to support the rest of your army not to win on their own. Unlike Dwarf and Empire, O&G cannot make a decent gunline so don't expect to blow your opponent off the table with a lobba. The idea that O&G war machines are dirt cheap is false, they certainly aren't much off of comparable war machines in other armies that field them.


Animosity is obscenely crippling. It is easily the most disabling disadvantage any army in the game faces. It wrecks the O&G movement phase, easily making the army the very worst at the most important phase in the game. Black orcs, despite helping with this crippling disability, are still horribly overpriced and not good value. However, like many others I was initially turned off BO characters because of their large points increase but I've come 180, its a tremendously valuable reason to upgrade your orc heroes to black orcs. Not that its a particularly good way of spending points in general (in fact for other armies the points increase is alarmingly high), however animosity is so crippling to the army that anything that helps negate it is a massive help. 15-20 points is a steal in the army for the upgrade never mind the minor stats advantage.

For a unit though? I'm not sold. While it helps with the nasty animosity they still remain a horribly overpriced unit. It is a case of pick your poison, weak any way you look at them. The fact that they take up a special slot as well simply makes it very difficult to choose them.

Avian
10-03-2007, 12:41
They are not great. They're incredibly average (and thats just not good enough) bolt throwers and stone throwers, but for the doom diver. I dont see either one dealing with big flyer monsters that well either, which you can counter with your own or big ranks/fanatics. Knights? Same again. Dwarven infantry you will just whittle down slightly, not 'deal' with them.
Great not as compared to the artillery of other races (which you don't have access to), but compared to any other method greenskins of dealing with said nasties. Fanatics are easy to draw out and ranks are of limited help when you get charged by something that can kick out eight or more dead Orcs in a single turn.

Hazhumie
10-03-2007, 15:02
3. Competitive O&G? Wrong army. Going heavy on warmachines certainly isn't going to change that fact one way or another. O&G machines, as has been mentioned before, are very average. Taking them for the heck of it is a waste of points, they are there to support the rest of your army not to win on their own. Unlike Dwarf and Empire, O&G cannot make a decent gunline so don't expect to blow your opponent off the table with a lobba. The idea that O&G war machines are dirt cheap is false, they certainly aren't much off of comparable war machines in other armies that field them.


Animosity is obscenely crippling. It is easily the most disabling disadvantage any army in the game faces. It wrecks the O&G movement phase, easily making the army the very worst at the most important phase in the game.

All true. As a new greenskin player but a WHFB player for over a decade, IMHO the value of the O&G army is unpredictability. Enjoy the chaos, nothing will make an opponent pucker faster than the erratic movement capabilities of the O&G. If you want control and reliability, collect my dusty friends the Tomb Kings.

Talonz
11-03-2007, 05:50
Fanatics are easy to draw out and ranks are of limited help when you get charged by something that can kick out eight or more dead Orcs in a single turn.

Wait a sec...8 or *more*?? An empire GM and griffon will do 8 tops, and thats assuming all attacks hit, wound and go unsaved. So what are we talking about here, a chaos lord on dragon or something??

Im wondering if your bias isnt meta dependent...locally, we just dont see big flyers in our 2k games. Theyre discouraged really.

Knights and dwarven infantry are still just rank and file, and can be defeated in so many ways that dont require war machines.

Mazdug
11-03-2007, 19:53
A unit of 4 chosen knights on horses will make 9 ws5 str5 attacks and 4 ws3 str4 attacks, that could probably kill 8 orcs in a turn, and is a prime target for a bolt thrower. We aren't even going to talk about a large unit of brettonians (I have a friend who sometimes brings 15 strong units to the field, thats like 12 str 6 attacks on the charge for the knights alone. A unit of devoted of slaanesh or witch elves will both make a ton of attack (with 5 frontage both devoted and witch elves make something like 16 attacks a turn), I'm sure there are plenty of other non monster rank and file units that could dish out 8 wounds a turn. Dwarven infantry won't do that many wounds, but the little gits take forever to kill, and if they are tooled up like some of my friends units, have a static combat res of like 8).

smileyface
14-03-2007, 02:20
One thing nobody has mentioned - keep your goblins cheap. Three point goblins are useful. Four point goblins are a maybe. Five point goblins are a distinct liability. Gobbos are always going to be rubbish, so they need to be numerous.

Regarding artillary, they aren't essential. On the other hand, they are pretty handy. I mean, if you don't have artillary, there's nothing to discourage your opponent putting all their units in the best possible positions for engaging your infantry. If you have a couple of bolt throwers deployed wide then some of those best possible positions are going to involve knights being flank-shot. This will usually mean they move in a more cautious fashion. If investing a hundred or two hundred points in artillary restricts your opponents manouvreing and lets you kill big nasties, then it's well worth doing.

Braad
14-03-2007, 09:35
Wait a sec...8 or *more*?? An empire GM and griffon will do 8 tops, and thats assuming all attacks hit, wound and go unsaved. So what are we talking about here, a chaos lord on dragon or something??

Indeed chaos knights.
But then try five, which are indeed chosen and also khorne...

But I got my chukka's for that.

Talonz
14-03-2007, 23:31
I was assuming we were talking about monster mounts. Chaos knights are a prime target for fanatics and the like.

DaBoss
15-03-2007, 07:31
I have heard so much of the Blorc or not debate and i am still on the fence. I know a fully tooled up unit of 25 Blorc's comes out at near 400 points, and a similar unit of Orcy Boyz is at 200 points, but the Blorcs still have many positive elements. I guess Avian says it right when he says that they limit your points for spending in other areas, and this is the main draw back. I have experimented with their use in game sat our club and have foudn that they are generally pretty effective, however we usually play games of 2500 points. In a 2000 point army it would be very hard to find room for them.

The WarMachine debate also is one that could go on and on. I think it is very important for an orc army to take some warmachines to deal with cavalry, big dribblies, etc. I often play HEs with a dragon riding general and watching 35 point spear chukka's take that 500 point beauty down is a real pleasure. Its also fun watching them kebab-ify dragon princes. However, i don't think they are strategically essential in large numbers. You miss out on too many cool things, and they can never be relied upon. I'd say 2 special and 1 rare slot max on shooty warmachines.

Black Orc characters ar enearly the only thing i take these days, in addition to a sneaky stealin gobbo shaman. They are so cool in combat, remove animosity (albeit in a bloody manner) and have access to heavy armour (which combined with a boar allows you to access a 2+ save). All my blorc lords and heroes are now always mounted. Once they removed the targetability of such models in foot units in 7th ed this became a very viable option, and gives great flexibilty with them being able to charge out seperately at 14 inches should a juicy target fall in the unit's path. I used to really enjoy putting a single such hero in a unit of fast cav gobbo wolfboyz as they would have ld 8 and heavy hitting power. However, the new animoisty rule has meant on many occasions the Blorc character kills more gobbos than the enemy.....:skull: