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Lady's Champion
24-07-2005, 21:02
Simple question: can I please have some advice on beating Dwarves with Orcs and Goblins

Thanks

Alex
24-07-2005, 22:03
Oo, interesting topic here, my main adversary in Warhammer, an old friend, who started same time as me is playing Dwarfs and I play O&G. We have played a number of games against each other, and I always look for new ways of beating him (we probably win about half of the time each...). On top of this, we are currently flat-mates, so it is not entirely unusual that we play...

Oh well,

onto the tactics discussion. My main annoyance with the dwarf army when playing Orcs is:

1. His whole army hates my whole army. Combine this with Dwarf troops having better WS than O&G troops, and what you get is that the dwarfs basically hit with all there attacks in the first round of combat. Oh sure, it is only one round, but it is an important one.

2. Dwarf Warriors annoy me, they are extremely cheap for what they do. WS4 T4 for 7 points, and great equipment options at that! And let's not forget the famous Ld of 9. Sure they have low movement, but when it comes to moving about in close quarters, the fact that they can march even within 8" of enemy makes them able to move 6", whereas I can only move 4" with my foot troops in that situation. Those situations should be quite easily avoided though.

These 2 things are hard to do anything about though, just have to live with it. ^^

I don't have enough models in my army (yet) to have been able to test a lot of different troops and tactics, but what I believe to be the key when fighting dwarfs are manouverability. There main disadvantage is there low movement, and it can be exploited by using swift manouverable troops like wolfies. That and the fact that you can have more units than him and thus outnumbering him, and that you can have your units big and thus do not need to care much about being decimated by War Machine fire is also advantages.

Well, this is n't really tactics, I'm just typing things down as they fly out of my head. :P Hopefully a mor experienced general with the O&G troops can help us. ^^

Oh, and beware the flame cannon, a lot of damage and auto-panic, yuck.

User Name
24-07-2005, 22:53
Outnumbering and flanking with boers or wolf riders added with some chariots for extra punch should break their lines. 3 fanatcis with mad cap mushrooms would mince some ironbrekaers or hammerers.

Tormentor of Slaanesh
25-07-2005, 09:07
I hate madcap mushrooms!!!!!!! chariots can be shot I must point out.

gortexgunnerson
25-07-2005, 09:14
The key will be quick destruction of the warmachines and control of the magic phase. Leave all forms of chariot and boar boars at home they are just easy points to warmachines. Dwarfs have access to lots of over str 7 no armour save weapons so they will just destroy expensive units and chariots before fighting in hand to hand.

I would advise several small units of wolf riders and basically go you guns 2 or 3 threaten 1 gun at once because once you hit the first and over runyou generally in postion to charge another if you alive lol. A champion and mus are probably worth the points for the extra combat edge.

O&G magic is also very affective and has lots of movement spells to help exploit the slowness of dwarfs. So I would take 3 wizard characters including a Lv4 and a large number of troops, several blocks of orc with choppas as they are v cheap and will minimise the losses to warmachine and missile fire i.e. its better their killing 5 point models rather then 25 point ones. and lots of wolf riders also a number of night goblin units (don't take fanatics in all of them take around take 2 units of 20 with 2 in each and 2 units with none in. The dwarf player must then waste time hammering a 40 point unit just in case it has the fanatics). Back these up with a heavy amount of warmachines, 35 point bolt throwers work wonders against dwarfs as do rock lobbers especially as dwarfs lack anti warmachine weaponary apart from gyro, easily killable and miners which take a while to get their.

So tactics..

Deploy with a wide line, castle style deployments are better generally but they play to the strengths of the dwarfs as it allows them to hammer your flanks whilst advancing at your troops. This means he engages to the front and will beat you in combat. Throw lots of shooting and magic at any template or auto hit weapons, 1st flame cannon, 2nd stone thrower, then organ gun etc.

Adavnce in a line whilst attempting to threaten the dwarf line use for goblin bait units as decoys. Maybe advance at his flame cannon and hope it blows it's self unit. However for this tactic snotlins are much better as firstly template so only 1 hit per affact base :P and also immune to panic. My advice is fight the army in 2 waves, firstly advance threatening to attack warmachines and missile with cheap troops like wolf riders goblins etc whilst actually using warmachine and magic fire to do most of your damage (as more then likey your wolf rider are pasted over a nearby wall or 2). You can play off the 2 sides if he attack your units you magic warmachine combo takes them out if he attacks your warmachines and characters your wolf rider etc should be albe to get in and then hope your good dice lol.

Whilst this is happening I would run like buggerary from his units dance around and threaten flanks etc but dont actually attack any units. even with relentless the dwarfs shouldnt catach you. Then when you have finished off the warmachines you can try and engage using your magically spells to get flanks rears etc. You need to have killed the warmachines off before doing this or else the dwarfs can generally blast anything threatening flanks whilst fighting off anything to the front.

Hope this helps, if not take a **** load of gobs and fanactis and charage across the battle field lol

Alex
25-07-2005, 10:10
Hmm...

There is a problem though. It's hard getting to the Dwarf War engines even with wolfies, and probably impossible to threaten them with normal foot blocks. The reason for this is that the Dwarf battle line can be held very tightly packed, and there is no real room to get past!!!

I fought a battle recently when the Dwarf player had deployed like so:

Table corner

HILL WITH WAR ENGINES : Block of troops

block of troops : block : Large Forest

I know.. crappiest diagram ever... but the point is if they deploy like this it's very hard to come anywhere near the engines without first breaking one of the units, and also very hard to flank them. This formation is risky though, since he easily runs of the table when standing that near to the edge, but then again, they got Ld9...
And I found that shooting out War engines aren't very effective either, due to the fact that you need 5 or 6 to hit the crew. Could always use a stone thrower, but they aren't very accurate.

One alternative is to take your blocks, which naturally will be bigger than his, and take your war engines, which are cheaper and just start decimating his units. With any luck, by the time you arrive his units will be small enough for you to have an advantage in ranks and number. He will have a harder time decimating you to a number to which it matters.
This is of course risky, to try and outgun a dwarf. ^^ Reminds me of a time when I played againts dwarfs and he only had a Flame cannon and a regular cannon (or was it stone thrower?). And I managed to shoot out the long range machine in the first turn. With my engines (both a Diver and a Lobber) and my magic I had the advantage in firepower, and started playing defensive. The dwarf player had to start moving towards my lines, and dragging his flame cannon along with him, pretty fun to see. ^^

If you know the what war engines the player you meet usually employs then it's an advantage, if he uses lots of cannons, then true, the chariots are matchwood. But if he uses mainly stone throwers and flamers, then he will have a harder time shooting them, and organ gun won't even be able to shoot before the chariots charge. With any luck the dwarf player can only get 1 round of shooting in before the chariots can charge.

Alex
26-07-2005, 10:40
Just a quick thought:

If you got a hero choice over you could contemplate bringning a night gobbo big boss with Wollopas one-hit-wunda. Why?

Well, only reason to take a night gobbo big boss at all instead of the common gobbo is that he has hatred for dwarfs and can re-roll hits first turn of combat. That paired with the one-hit-wunda makes for a character to have a decent chance of killing a dwarf character in one round, even if he has a 1+ armour save! The one-hit-wunda will get you a S of 7, making you wound on 2+ with a -4 armous save modifier, and with the ability to re-roll the misses you will surely land 2 or even 3 hits. After this the character will of course be quite useless/chanceless, but hey, he only cost you 45 points. Can be worth taking if you got a hero slot left.

Lady's Champion
26-07-2005, 11:47
No a night goblin character is for taking mad cap mushrooms

Alex
26-07-2005, 11:55
That too, although I found Mad Cap to be unreliable... Usually only one of 3 fanatics hit home the first round anyways.

nurgle_boy
26-07-2005, 16:53
coincidetually, i played a game vs dwarves today, and to my surprise won, after a close shave with me heavy (well, medium) wolfboyz only just drawing in combat (good old outnumbering) and my savage orc shaman charging into a bsb and almost being splatted.

i find that using warmachines like bolt throwers, in bulk works. what do you take for special choices? if night gobos, take one squig herd, and 6 bolt throwers (in 2k)
if orcs, take a boarboyz unit, OR black orcs, and 6 bolt throwers
otherwise, just take 6 bolt throwers, and a rock lobba, or pair of wolfie chariots.

take units with numbers no less than 25 (or 24+character) so you can take some losees, and still get outnumbering and ranks, and standard, sor a basic combat res of 5, if with a hero, challenge unless they have many attacks, in which case, hope they dont challenge you, and just hit the unit hard. then your boyz can just hit all you like.

as for the warmachines, with big units, you can ignore them. sendsome wolfboys at them, in units of 5, with spears, or maybe bows, but i suggest spears...

thwe flame cannon could suck, but send some savage orcs at it. immunity to phsychology, just let some die, and hope that you dont run out of fodder before he misfires. for slayers, hit them with a combined charge of big'uns and chariots, and just try to get rid of them in a single turn.

as for the rest, just hit it hard and fast, with lots of hits!

Frankly
27-07-2005, 00:59
Numbers will do it ever time againt dwarves.

Straight out points cost will usually bet Dwarves when playing O&Gs, cheep units of massed numbers over tooled up characters, fanatics and warmachines, will negate alot of his shooting phase and give you options for your advancement.

Once you get into 180+ solid units you shouldn't have much problems, support units are another key area, gobbo chariots and wolf riders are excellent for threatening his support units and screwing with his target selection.

Magic is good, but if he has a tight armylist, he's going to have pretty good anti-magic.

Orcdom
27-07-2005, 02:20
if all your chars are gobbos then you get 1 more per 1K in points
river trolls work well vs dwarves keep a boss with them
giants are even good
doom divers, hide em, longer range than anything he has.
wolf riders will be good as well.
squigs strength 5-2 attacks hmmmmm
and finatics about 9 will do them stunties nice.
try for a 2K game
1 goblin warboss
1 goblin big boss with raggedy banner
stick them in a unit of night goblins with a big boss or shaman with mad capp mushrooms

i took the eadbutt ring on a boss because that essentially gives another shaman as well and your mushrooms can go on a shaman

Steve
Steve

Alex
27-07-2005, 10:29
I'm a little sceptical about the giant... Cannons can kill off a giant easily, and thunderers are even worse. At close range they will hit him on 2+ and wound on 5+. And since a giant has no armoursave he's gonna go down reeeaaally fast.

Orcdom
27-07-2005, 22:49
to each thier own, mine lives well, empire is the hardest on a giant, the thunderers, against them they were usually set on a flank, and warmachines on the other, so pick a side and use terrain, our table sides for fantasy usually have quite a bit of terrain.
Steve

Frankly
28-07-2005, 01:03
Hmmm .. I have to agree with Alex, if I saw a gaint on the other side of the table I'd most likely cheer, but then again I've got a crap load of warmachines in my list.

If I saw a unit of 35 night gobbo's with nets and spears I'd think "oh crap", because their no way I'm going to get rid of it easily, facing three N.gobbo units like this is a hell of a mission.

I've never seen fanatics do all that well against a static dwarven battleline, usually they're get released to early in the game and course any real problems for the darf plaer

Bolt throwers are brutal, so a gobbo chariots, both IMO, they are the best units in the O&Gs for dealing damage to stunties.

Orcdom
28-07-2005, 01:48
my gobbo mobs, i think the smallest is 35 strong, the largest being 60 strong, i like to keep them around 40+
people say its a waste, but i typically play against alot of elves, so i need numbers, and i like useing the gobbos better than orcs.

personally the only orcs i like are black orcs and savage orcs, i see no point in taking regular orcs, a goblin can do almost as good because you can afford the casualties easier.

doom divers are great against dwarves as well, but i hate how the special rare system is with warmachines, esp doomdivers. i never used chariots untill this edition and i like em alot, but i have 2 orc chariots and have fielded them once, my gobbo chariots, every time.

Steve

Frankly
28-07-2005, 02:05
I haven't faced a doom diver yet with my dwarves ... don't really want to either.

Orcdom
28-07-2005, 02:38
well if he goes after your warmachins dont worry about him the way doom divers have been redone, worry when he uses 2 and goes after your units 1 unit at a time.
Steve

Alex
29-07-2005, 12:18
I agree about the fanatics, the don't do much vs. dwarfs. Their best use is to tie up movement and chargers, and dwarfs don't move around a lot anyways.

About the Doom Diver, it's ok vs dwarfs, but certainly not their best use. With them using no template, ignoring armour save and being able to re-roll scatter dice, I think they are best used vs. small heavily armoured units. Chosen Chaos Knights come to mind. ^^

Orcdom
29-07-2005, 20:29
against Ironbreakers.
and finatics against dwarves, thats what your movement spells are for, you can also get by with smaller mobs of night goblin goodness against dwarves for the hatred part.
there for giving more havoc in the battlefield in the form of finatics.

Steve

Lady's Champion
03-08-2005, 19:04
That too, although I found Mad Cap to be unreliable... Usually only one of 3 fanatics hit home the first round anyways.

Exactly, so you need the mushrooms to take advantage and get more hits that time

Tormentor of Slaanesh
03-08-2005, 20:32
gyropcopters release fanatics and if you have a big army, ummm gobbo sqishy. then again lots of gobbos means that 6 loses doesn't make a difference

Orcdom
04-08-2005, 20:08
so doesent everything else in the enemy's army releases finatics, but even when the gyrocopter releases them unless he appears within 8" by magic or something then he has to stop at 8" and let the goblin player controll his finatics = dead gyrocopter.
that will work 1 time on 1 unit unless goblin player is that stupid on deployment by placing all of his night goblin mobs close together.

in 4th edition that was viable but they have toned the rune of disguiise down quite a bit since it appears as soon as it moves or shoots.
Steve

Alex
05-08-2005, 14:38
Exactly, so you need the mushrooms to take advantage and get more hits that time

But that is like 30 points for an extra D6 S5 hits, and a character to carry the item. Plus it is not always you are able to send them after the unit you would like either. I think the points can be spent better elsewhere, but then again, I haven't used Mad Cap all that much though, and I may very well be wrong.

Orcdom
05-08-2005, 20:46
i stick mine on a shaman, i dont fill my shamans full of dispell scrolls, BTW gobbo chars are cheap and you can have more of them with all gobbos.

and you can pretty much tell from deployment who will charge what, so move your shaman from 1 mob to the next or dont start him in a mob. and stick that ead butt ring on a big boss, essentially there is another shaman.

and just like anything else, you hit big or miss big in an O&G army.
Steve

LaughinGremlin
06-08-2005, 05:22
If the dwarf general tends to huddle his army in a corner to protect both of his flanks, rock lobbers would have an easier time hitting something, yes? Focus mgical energies on dwarven artillery. Without artillery, dwarves are in a boat without oars. Then, enjoy your 6 bolt throwers mowing down the marching dwarves.

Tormentor of Slaanesh
08-08-2005, 14:44
so doesent everything else in the enemy's army releases finatics, but even when the gyrocopter releases them unless he appears within 8" by magic or something then he has to stop at 8" and let the goblin player controll his finatics = dead gyrocopter.
that will work 1 time on 1 unit unless goblin player is that stupid on deployment by placing all of his night goblin mobs close together.

gyrocopters are the only thing in the dwarf list that can reach the gobbos fast enough. if released early fanatics can mow down orc chariots, giants and thin down mobs. a good 140 point sacrifice I think.

Orcdom
08-08-2005, 21:06
stilll not much a problem, the problem was in 4th edition (IIRC 5th as well)when it appeared within the 8" of 2-3 night gobbo mobs and your finatics went random.

all you will do is lose 1 set of finatics for each gyro copter used this way, a 75 point, 3 finatic trade off for the you say 140 point dwarf gyrocopter? not a bad deal IMHO. (+30 points if you lose the mad cap mushroom)
at least the gobbo player controls the direction they are released. so why should they hit your other mobs unless you surrounded your self, and this is also a reason goblin archers are still a viable choice, along with sticking the eadbutt ring on your boss using him as another finatic killer.

also i 90% of the time use an all gobbo army except for the occasional giant and troll mob. so there i am only losing 20 points of gobbos at most so i am still up by 50 points.

if your taking night gobbos with orcs your only taking them for the finatics, so why not take the min sized mob, stick bows in thier hands because you dont expect them to fight or do much of anything besides hide shamans and be delivery systems for finatics.

the problem was with gyrocopters before was because they usually surviuved the finatics because they came out random was when 2 were used and criss crossed flame templates laid side by side from opposite sides of your mobs.
effectively took out whole mobs because that was usually about 5-7 models wide and 5 ranks deep, were gone to steam.

Steve

Harrisondaly
09-08-2005, 09:08
8 wolf chariots keep out off way off bolt throwers and cannons an they can do some damage

Alex
09-08-2005, 09:32
if your taking night gobbos with orcs your only taking them for the finatics, so why not take the min sized mob, stick bows in thier hands because you dont expect them to fight or do much of anything besides hide shamans and be delivery systems for finatics.


Actually, there are other reasons to take night gobbos than this, if you make a uniut with spears, field it say 7 wide and put netters in there you will have a unit that even if it won't beat, will still be able to put up a good fight against any dwarf core regiment. And that for much cheaper cost! The reason not to put fanatics in gobbo units is that they become so expensive that you can't sacrifice them anymore. You don't want your opponent to earn a lot of points for destroying your gobbos.
Therefore I think that a small unit of 20 goblins, with no command and only one fanatic can be a viable choice, just to tie up chargers. Not very useful vs dwarfs though.

Tormentor of Slaanesh
09-08-2005, 16:04
hey, ur not on about dwarfs anymore. there are other units in the orc army than goblins. how effective are trolls against dwarfs? river trolls could kill dwarfs, expecially low strength ones. has anyone tried river trolls?

Lady's Champion
11-08-2005, 19:49
I think sticking the gobbos with bows is a nice idea, then they can shoot the fanatics if they get troublesome

Lady's Champion
11-08-2005, 19:51
Yea, river trolls- any thoughts?

Orcdom
11-08-2005, 20:34
river trolls are good, esp since the stone trolls just add dispel dice or whatever anymore, the stone trolls used to be just a 4+ dispel on any spell affecting them. now its what 2 dispel dice?
big deal.
i would rather take the -1 HTH the trolls cause (IIRC thats still the same), esp against dwarves.
just stick a big boss with them or keep your warboss close and trolls will hold thier own. if its armor they cant completely smash due to strength, just puke on em.

Steve

Grumnir
12-08-2005, 01:30
I'd be happy to trade fanatics and consequent destruction for a gyrocopter!

A Gyro is also a rare and can cause a fair bit of march blocking/hunting so it is worth taking out. Even it's steam cannon can start racking up kills (though the dwarf inside me misses it's bombs).

There's been a lot of advice about trying to swamp dwarves but I would still advise taking some killy characters/units as well. Primarily because a tight dwarf deployment can mean you can't physically get at the dwarf units (also you have larger base sizes). A simple Black Orc Big Boss with GW deals out 4 s7 hits a turn.

Lady's Champion
12-08-2005, 14:19
As does a Goblin War Boss with Great Weapon (well, s6, still good!)

Alex
12-08-2005, 14:26
The Gobbo is cheap enough that you can sacrifice him also. ^^

The problem is that no unit in the O&G army really hits hard enough to be able to easily rout a unit of dwarfs. If the deployment is as tight as you described, and we can't get more than one unit against every one of his, and we have to make frontal assaults, then we are in trouble.

Orcdom
13-08-2005, 02:18
thats what them gobbo chariots, spear chukkas, trolls, giants and wolfies are for, all move fast (considering range for the chukkas) no animosity to deal with (cant rem if warmachines suffer) these should all be good to use on flanks of dwarves, or just go for his flank in the first place, if you can go for that he may turn to face you but open up for a beardy good slaughter.
Steve

Alex
14-08-2005, 13:41
Wolf Riders do suffer from animosity though.

Lady's Champion
14-08-2005, 19:17
Yea, animosity is a bane here. I think I might try sending in the Wolf Riders head on, get them to take out a flank, then charge in the Orcs. Worth a try at least...

Lyonator
14-08-2005, 19:37
<looks on interestedly>

dont mind me....
Im just mulling over a mostly cav, all goblin army right now...
<wolfriders, wolf chariots, doom diver, squig herd mebbe....>

as for goblins with bows.... Im always iffy on such short ranged/ low S weapons, but to each their own.

Orcdom
14-08-2005, 22:59
squig herds are great against especially khorne armies, or anything that is badass in HTH and is subject to frenzy.

and i figured the animosity on wolfies was a no brainer so i didnt say anything, they were put in there concerning the speed.

i played Night Goblins vs TK vs VC yesterday in a 3way battle, me and the TK lost, i was in probly 2nd place tho. and i failed animosity 2x and one of those i rolled a 6 and out of 6 turns thats not too bad.

lost my warboss to a damnable tunneling spider with KB.
Steve

Alex
15-08-2005, 06:44
Hehe, I played a few days ago. Me and a Skaven player vs a dwarf. Was a really lame game though, and it became apparent that the table we play on is to damn long and needs be restricted next time. Basically The Dwarf deployed as far away in one corner as possible, and we realized it would take 6 turns just to get over there, and then I would need to pass every single animosity test! It ended up with both armies just shooting at each other for the lenght of the game, ended up in a draw. Only battle was between his miners and some of our troops.

And that was lame... 5 wolf riders charged 6 miners, while 5 gutter runners charged them in rear. Easy kill or what? Nope, gutter runners did 2 wounds, dwarf player saved both. Wolf riders did 0 wounds, miners struck back killing 4 wolves!!! We lost combat by 1 and both units fled, causing panic in other units next turn, effectively getting the dwarf player like 300-400 points... Just hate those situations. ^^

Moral of the story was, never play a cowardly dwarf on a to big a table. XD

3-way battle? How does that work, seems a bit unbalanced to me, especially if the others gang up on you...

Orcdom
15-08-2005, 20:09
its just a mutual understanding that 2 dont gang up on each other, shorten the table to 4x5 and 1 army on short edge, 2 on the longs and we played a type of take and hold, had an objective in the middle and hold it through the 6th turn, we gave up at the end of the 5th/top of the 6th. it was not clear way to get even a drw, VC had it pretty good raising skellies all around the objective.

we didnt care much either, it was a good and fun game, one of the best in a while, a frined was debating on buying him a TK army and got to try another friends army and decided he didnt like its play style and magic rules, and i used my night gobbos, a list i used on a 1500 pt game and added a shaman, big boss, 3 r trolls and a giant for the other 500 points, just luckily had 3 cores with me, forgot to bring more gobbos, otherwise it would have turned out a little better me thinks.

BTW the game we played was 2K each.
an i missed AB so much, the friend didnt have a puter and we had to write the lists up, that is the only other reason i hate O&G (painting them is the other reason). but otherwise i love the army.

Steve

Alex
16-08-2005, 09:56
Oo, we are wandering slightly off topic now hehe.

To get back on... What unit in the O&G army you think would be best suited for killing the standard Dwarf unit of clansmen with heavy armour, hand weapon and shield? They are very tough and most units have trouble hurting them.
I'm just thinking of units that can one-on-one them if the situation arrives.
Would Savage Orcs Big Un's be able to dish out enough hard hitd to make an impact on these tough units, or are combined charges the only way to go?

Gotreksbrother
16-08-2005, 10:25
best unit is Trolls or Black Orcs with great weapons...but make sure the trolls have a character leading them (on a boar maybe) or youll find them less than usefull...
Otherwise 3 trolls can dish out 9 S5 attacks or 3 S5 no save attacks per turn...practically eliminating the dwarves front rank if they rank up with 4 models wide...

Black orcs hit on 4+ and wound on 2+ giving them a 6+ save only, and dwarves only hit them back on 4+ wound on 5+ and they still save on 5+...

Of the Core units: Night gobbos with netters and fanatics can take out dwarves if they can break them on the first or second turn of combat...

cheers, Paddy

Alex
16-08-2005, 10:42
Ah, I've been meaning to get some Black Orcs with 2hand-weapons further ahead. What daunts me is only the prospect that with a frontage of 5 I will only get 5 attacks (6 with champion), and then hitting on 4+ hmm, still a good amount of kills though I guess. And that unit champion with great weapons have STR 7!!!
Black Orc unit champions are really insane... WS5 S5, that's better STR value than an Orc or Savage Orc Warboss!!!

About the trolls, seems they would need to be used in addition with other units not to get outnumbered and ranked out to death. Dwarfs still hit em on 3+ (4+ for River Trolls), and wound on 5+, so they can do some CR with some luck. A character on a boar is probably what I would use, he could add extra CR vs troops, and should the dwarf have a character in the unit he could be tooled up to soak up challenges. Give him armour of Gork, Enchanted shield and a boar and he will have 1+ armour save with re-roll, and with a spear he will have 3 S5 attacks on the turn he charges.

You think it's worth the extra 10 points to upgrade to River trolls vs Dwarfs? I'm still contemplating what troll models to buy, and since I play dwarfs a lot... Stone trolls would be useless vs. dwarfs obviously, but I really like the models in comparison to the River ones.

Gotreksbrother
16-08-2005, 12:43
just use stone trolls and invent some suitable reason to pose them as river trolls...like saying they exude rock dust from their bodies that fill the air around them and makes it hard for attackers to strike at them...

as for ranks...that doesnt matter with trolls as long as you kill 5 dwarves a turn...something 3 trolls and a bigboss should be quite capable of...specially with the trolls 3 autohit attacks at S5 and no save (2 wounds maybe 3 on the dwarfs) and the bigboss 3 attacks that hit on 3+ and wound on 2+ (give him great weapon, not spear), allowing the dwarves a save of 6 only (so probably 2 more kills) and the boar attack...bring 4 trolls, with 1 in the back rank...if you win combat you can take the extra troll and putt it in the flank and gain +1 for flank and 3 extra attacks...

cheers, paddy

Alex
16-08-2005, 13:38
Seems troll vomit attacks and ordinary attacks makes excactly the same mean number of kills vs said dwarf unit. Guess would be better to use ordinary attacks then, since they have a higher potential. ^^

archonbrujah
16-08-2005, 13:53
I play both dwarves and O & G, so I'll throw my 2 cents in here :)

With the caveat of "depends on what type of Dwarf army" you opponent plays, it's all about manuever, as has been said. Although the Dwarf shooting will cause you all sorts of trouble, you just won't beat his infantry blocks without some Wolf Riders, Chariots, or Boar Boyz to flank charge to support a main line unit hitting their front. I'd opt for the several small units of Wolf Riders, just because they multi-task the best. Use them for Warmachine hunting, flank/rear charges, soaking up charges with a flee reaction, whatever. Just remember that you need 2 units of Wolfriders if possible when outflanking a Dwarf unit, to account for 1 getting blown away or suffering animosity.

I have a thing for Boar Chariots, which, if you are able to minimize the war machine shots with terrain, make a solid supporting charge or war machine hunting unit. Just never forget that one cannonball and poof, spilnters and orc body parts everywhere.

Magic will be iffy at best, in a 2,000 point list, every Dwarf army will have at least 4 dispel dice. Your points are probably better spent on almost anything else.

I like my Giant. Alot. But I'd leave him at home for fighting Dwarves, too much potential for a one turn volley of death.

Fanatics are great. I always, regardless of the opponent field 1 regient of NG's with 3 Fanatics. Makes the army more fun, throws a little chaos onto the field, and makes any army with high armoured troops sweat, alot. It's worth the points even if the Dwarf players shoots them and panics or destroys them, because the rest of your army is less hurt then.

I don't field Trolls, Bolt Throwers, or Savage Orcs, so I can't really say whether they would be efective or not.

The defended mountain tactic is a hard one to beat for any army that doesn't have tunnelers, not just Orcs. Against these armies, as a Dwarf player, my greatest weakness is that by making an effective shooting force, my HtH suffers alot. Excepting Slayers, a good solid charge can decimate the entire defense line. Enemy shooting doesn't worry me much, since my tough Dwarf troops shrug of the worst of most shooting. Enemy magic, I have lots of dispel dice for. It's the rank and file that kill me!

Good luck!

Archonbrujah

Frankly
16-08-2005, 14:37
units of 35 Night goblins do well against dwarves, they're cheep, their large unit strength makes them strong against panic attacks for shooting. With 6 netters in the front rank you on average negate 3 attacks, and with spears you can have up to 14 attacks back.

Gobbo chariots are by far the best support unit, they are a threat in turn 2, cost less than 70pts so multipul units can give an opponant a real headache in target selection.

Orcdom
16-08-2005, 23:58
anything with good armor and using trolls, i have found it is just better to puke on the enemy.
Steve

Alex
17-08-2005, 08:15
Yes, if they have armour save 2+ or better, might as well puke on them. ^^

Agreeing on manouverability being the key, with O&G having both more and faster troops on the field. But as pointed out, the defended mountain approach is nasty, and will eliminate any flanks of the army, and also if it's tight enough making it impossible to squeese through to get to grips with war engines/make rear charges. In a scenario like this the wolfs and boars just hang around and can't be of much use! :/
And to my knowledge (or at least where I play) this tactic is deployed every single time. And full frontal charge into a dwarven line... well let's just say you get stuck there. Especially if they field slayers. ><

Any advice on how to break up a formation like this? As soon as you get the dwarves to move they will be open to flank attacks.
I'm thinking sending in a unit of night gobbos a 20 models, they will be beaten and flee fairly quick, and since dwarves hate NG, they must pursue, that would punch a hole in their line, if they pursue far that is. Also the unit would be small enough not to cause panic in your own troops.
The only problem with manouvering about like this is that it takes time, and with a foot slogger army like O&G it usually takes at least 4 turns to even get into position for a frontal charge in this kind of battle.

Lady's Champion
17-08-2005, 09:44
Yea, I face the same problems Alex, grr

Alex
17-08-2005, 10:44
Yeah...
unless the dwarf player fields lots of cannons may be a good idea. A 2nd turn charge from as many chariots as you can fit to an enemy regiment (3 if they have a frontage of 4 or 5?) would probably make squishy sounds even in a dwarf unit. And if they fail to rout em, and flees in the subsequent turn, they can always with some luck rally, and charge in some impact hits again later. :)

What I am going for here is something that will punch a hole in his lines early, we only really need one gap the dwarf player cannot fill, and we will be given lots of options. Manage to break a regiment on his flank and he will be open to flank attacks on other regiments, break one in the middle and you have carved a path through to his war engines.
I'm just theorizing here though, I don't have enough models to try this yet... I am right now in a painting frenzy, but I paint slooow, and I am still ways to go before I got all I need, I have 0 chariots so far... boo. I just hope they wont go change the good parts in our army list when we get our new army list, at least not before I have been able to try them out. :)
Currently painting Orcs to be used as Big Un's, then gonna paint up 40 some night gobbos with spears + netters. Then maybe some chariots. ^^ It gonna be so easy to start a new army when this is done... painting all these dudes really sucks. And boy, now I am really off topic...

Going back to the topic, I still think punching a hole in his lines in the turns before our foot sloggers get into contact will really win the day against a defended mountain deployment. Need to invest some points in this though, and still hopefully have points left for enough fighting regiments to match/outnumber the opponent.
Other ways of punching a hole I can think of atm is maybe a 16 man unit of wolves, with full command + big boss, assisted by one or 2 chariots, trying to charge one regiment in turn 2 (or 3 if the dwarf deployed way back in his zone). Could possibly also try to obliterate/weaken a regiment with war machine fire and magic, this surely seems to be the way to go vs. slayers as they are:
a) unarmored
b) unbreakable
and
c) fairly expensive

Hopefully if the dwarf uses this tactic he is using a lot of war engines, drawing points out of his fighting core. I have no real problem with that, since my numbers are great enough to soak up a lot of missile fire. Only thing I fear is the flame cannon, not only can it cause mass destruction in even large units (darn flame template), it also forces you to take a panic test, which surely is a bad thing in a O&G army. Cannons are bit annoying to, since they can snipe lone characters and kill chariots and giants. If he brings an organ gun or stone thrower, I will most likely don't care.

This was quite a long post with still possibly not much being said...
But what can I say, I am at work, have nothing to do, am bored and got internet access. :P

/Alex

Grumnir
17-08-2005, 11:20
Does seem like a reasonable tactic alex but one concern is that it will take a lot of manouvering to accomplish and as you stated you may run out of time to exploit the hoped for gap.

A one trcik tactic is to allow the dwarf player to charge you! May sound strange but if you can place a unit 6" away the dwarf player may not be able to contain their joy and let the rareness of the oppurtunity overcome them. In this way you could take the charge, flee (hopefully flee actually!) and theregy drage them out of position. a charge of 6" = 2d6 pursue will probably leave them beyond help from the rest of the line.

Not a guarantee but remember players can often revel in haing a go at something thier normally not allowed to do ;)

Chuffy
17-08-2005, 11:55
Rock Lobbas.

Rock Lobbas.

Rock Lobbas.

Rock Lobbas destroy Dwarfs, with lots of cheap rock lobbas you can control the shooting phase and just wipe the dwarf army off of the battlefield. Plus Dwarfs never move, so you can easily keep throwing rocks on target.

Black Orcs with great weapons and noggs banner of butchery can also break even the toughest Dwarf units, plus they're black orcs and black orcs are very good.

Also just taking big units of orcs and goblins can really bone dwarfs over, outnumbering and a large amount of attacks can normally draw or even win combats.

One thing you have to watch out for is dwarfs with spongy sticks, goblin wold riders don't enjoy spongy sticks.

Alex
17-08-2005, 12:08
Not a guarantee but remember players can often revel in haing a go at something thier normally not allowed to do ;)

Hehe, that is evil, but if he thinks twice about it he will probably not move, the beauty is that if it is Night Gobbos he charges, he must later pursue them. Also this tactic will take time to pull off, I wish a game was 10 turns. XD

with sme luck you could have him pursue into a regiment of Night Gobbo spearmen + netters though, and then you've got a turn to flank him with wolves or whatever before that combat ensues, and then you are almost sure to win.

Chuffy:

Gonna try shooty heavy when I got the models for it, but I'm thinking maybe going 4 chukkas 2 lobbas, maybe 2 doom diver. And some magic to top it off. ^^

Tormentor of Slaanesh
17-08-2005, 18:41
I agree. i hate rock lobbas but I must point out more rock lobbas means less chariots? black orcs so less combat power.

Orcdom
17-08-2005, 20:11
rock lobbas and doom divers for that matter, i havent used but in a game or 2 this edition, in this edition where your restricted, i dont like them. in 5th where you could actually do something with them like pair them up and still take giants and trolls, they were worth taking.

i dont see them worth taking unless you can take 2, i have 4 doom divers and 1 lobba, wanted a second lobba but once this edition was out and played a couple games, i would rather take other stuff like more chukkas and chariots.
pretty much tho i guess you can pair them up as you like, if you like the shootyness aspect for them, fine, if not go HTH heavy and kill em in combat.

night goblins in a mob of 40+ work good, and since your using orcs and goblins and not one or the other keep a mob of black orcs right behind them. will quell your animosity. and if you have the frontal use 10 wide with bows, works well esp since you can get a couple rounds of shooting vs dwarves. why not try wider than 10.

as for chariots why not use gobbo chariots? 2 points of strength less and twice as many can be bought.

IIRC dont you target ranks with a bolt thrower like you do with cannons?
Steve

Chuffy
17-08-2005, 21:41
???

1 Rock Lobba is easily able to destroy pretty much anything it likes, in fact in this edition they are alot more powerful (different partial hit rules). Honestly in 2000 points an O&G army needs some black orcs, 2 chukkas and 2 lobbas for it's special choices. Thats very potent.

However Doom Divers are very bad, 80 points for.....a flying fanatic. Whoop. Plus it's not that accurate, it doesn't use a template afterall.

Grumnir
18-08-2005, 00:35
Well in my experience I've found the doomdivers to be fairly accurate --> remember they can steer back on course by d6 inches. This makes them much more reliable.

Orcdom
18-08-2005, 00:58
problem with doom divers is they have to be exact hits, a template allows some leeway, so they are near useless for warmachine destroying.

O&G armies dont "need" Black Orcs even at 4000 points, they are just a nice addition.

just depends on your play style. if you want less models, more stability, and harder hitting power, include them.

want a little more of a challenge, go the way of the sneeky git with da gobbos.

Steve

nurgle_boy
18-08-2005, 09:37
black orcs are hardly a must. as orcdom said, theyre just a shiney add on. unless that is you use them as a fighting core and take 29 of them and a character :D

Lady's Champion
18-08-2005, 17:55
I only ever have one Lobba and one Chukka, though I must say I can see the merits of having having two Chukkas- i.e. one never hits, two might sometimes hit

Alex
18-08-2005, 18:44
Just using one chukka instead of two seems to me like a waste of a special choice.. better get another, only costs 35 points.

Lyonator
19-08-2005, 06:44
yeah, I have found that any time the list gives the option of taking 'two for one', its a good call to do it.

Doom divers are almost always a good choice, especially against armies that will be moving slow, or not moving at all.

Orcdom
19-08-2005, 23:12
and thats why i think goblin chariots are better than thier orc counterparts, except against elves.
Steve

Boomstar
26-08-2005, 15:28
Just a quick question before this topic gets to old what would you guys say the best rare unit is against dwarfs?

Edit:In the orc and goblin army of course.

nurgle_boy
26-08-2005, 19:14
rare choices eh... depends what kind of dwarves you play...

gunline, or combat?

for a packed up gunline, doom divers, for combat, pumpers, and giants. terror is usefull!

Orcdom
26-08-2005, 20:48
i vote giants as well, just about any army they are usefull against.
Steve