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View Full Version : AI Cheese Lists? I thought it was impossible...



Tyra_Nid
06-03-2007, 08:50
...But a renowned powergamer in my group has managed it already :(

He is suggesting taking a host of Arvus Lighters in standard fighter missions in order to 'draw out' enemy movement before moving your own fighters.

By taking an Arvus instead of a Alt Weapon Load, in a mission including, for example, 4 TBolts, you would have 8 aircraft all up. Against a race such as Eldar, this would mean you could move all your inconsiquential Arvus' first, forcing the Eldar player to move their planes without knowing what your fighters will do.

Eg:
Imp: Arvus moves,
Eldar: Nightwing moves,
Imp: Arvus moves,
Eldar: Nightwing moves,
Imp: Arvus moves,
Eldar: Nightwing moves,
Imp: Arvus moves,
Imp: TBolt moves,
Imp: TBolt moves,
Imp: TBolt moves,
Imp: TBolt moves.

In this way, the Imperial player would know exactly where all the Eldar have ended up, and be able to accurately get into a good position without having to hope he had moved the right way.

The Eldar would be forced to either shoot down the Arvus' (wasting time and ammo), or ignore them and *hope* the Tbolts somehow ended up in their firing arc.

Does anyone else think this is an absolutely appalling and ridiculous concept? Can anyone poke flaws in this guys argument, so I can use the arguments against him next time we play?

(As a point of interest, he is the Eldar player and I the Imperial, but I wouldnt use such a dirty tactic)

fattdex
06-03-2007, 10:41
yeah that's just being dirty, it doesnt really add to the spirit of the mechanics and it's just playing to win by exploitation.

I suppose you could make a house rule that fighter are to be moved first then bombers then dedicated transports, but I think the arvus is the only non-armed transport anyway isn't it? And most others at least retain some defensive weapons, making you decide whether it is fair to call it a transport or a fighter. I think this is a case where they stuffed up by making sweeping generalisiations by calling planes 'fighters' or 'bombers'. you could by the rule take a force of nothing but arvuses in a dogfight and hope the enemy just crashes.

Wolflord Havoc
06-03-2007, 11:39
Slap him

Remember that this game revolves around missions - if your Arvus transporters are part of the mission then the Eldar is probably going to make mince meat out of them or the T-bolts first then the Arvus afterwards.

Its unlikely that the Arvus Lighter pilots are going to be used as bait - I am sure that they would have plenty of other things to do i.e the Red Bull Express from Orbit to Ground to keep the Imperial forces supplied with everything from Spare boots to T-bolt Engine parts.

Anyway get him to Play it and see what happens

Baaltharus
06-03-2007, 11:44
Its a sneeky dirty trick indeed but not that full proof. It goes against the fluff and would put an Imperial player at a big disadvantage against the likes of Chaos. Against Eldar however it does have some big advantages, these advantages can be overcome however. The one thing Eldar have over everyone else is manouverability and what the Arvus lacks (along with everything else) is manouverability. If you hang back out of range of the Imp guns (cos they wont have any points for skystrikes) and sweep all your craft round to one flank the Imp player will have to break formation and leave one or more of the Arvus's vunerable where upon you can pick it off. Repeat this once or twice before going after the thunderbolts.

Alternatively you could try a high speed fly-by in which you simply fly past at high speed and roll back on the Imp fighters, if you do this they'll prob break off the thunderbolts to dodge the fire leaving the vunerable Arvus's to take the hits.

Its a cheap move but you may be able to find a way round it.

Al.

mattjgilbert
06-03-2007, 12:34
Eldar player simply goes after the Arvus's I guess and then it's an even playing field once again.

greenmtvince
06-03-2007, 12:44
Yeah, because in this instance, if you take out the 4 Arvuses, the 4 Thuds are going to have to disengage.

Darnok
06-03-2007, 13:54
Yeah, because in this instance, if you take out the 4 Arvuses, the 4 Thuds are going to have to disengage.

That was my first thought after "what a dirty little trick". But it's as simple as that: blast the flying bricks (aka Arvus) out of the sky, and see the Thunderbolts fleeing with lightened afterburner. Disengagement is nice...

Of course he can keep the Arvus models behind, but the Eldar player should be able to overcome that.

Still: it's quite dirty. Remember: the AI book is a massive hardcover - use the rules, hit the bugger. ;)

Thanatos_elNyx
06-03-2007, 17:31
In Battletech they have a system where if forces are imbalanced numerically the person with the numbers would move more than one unit to balance it all out.

So if I have twice an many units left to move, I have to move two of them this time. So that no matter what, who ever won the initative would ALWAYS move last.

i.e. In that example, the Imp player would have moved two Arvus's. Then the Eldar player moves one. Imps has 6 to the Eldar 2, so them move 2. Eldar moves 1. Then finally the Imps move their all the units they have left and the Eldar having won the int moves their last unit last.

I helps offset this kind of thing and means that winning the Int actually means you get an advantage even when facing numerically superior foes.

skatingtortoise
06-03-2007, 18:32
i thought the point of the initiative in its current incarnation is winning is good for shooting, but bad for moving?

Tyra_Nid
06-03-2007, 22:47
Oh, you guys misinterperet a little- this list is never going to see the table in our group. The guy who suggested it plays Eldar, so unless he makes an Imperial force *just* to play this dirty tactic, then its a purely theoretical discussion.

Hadnt really thought of the 50% disengagement...

But it wouldnt be too hard to completely scatter the Arvus', doing random and crazy moves (powerdive!) that the Eldar would not be able to predict. Since there is no advantage to the Arvus being close to the Eldar or the same level, they could go completely nuts :p

I can see the game degenerating into pure flying. Arvus' going nuts to avoid the Eldar, Eldar moving pretty randomly to *maybe* get a bead on an Arvus, and to avoid the Imperials, and the Imperials, going crazy trying to hit the Eldar...

mageboltrat
06-03-2007, 23:01
Remember they can only power dive not power climb eventually the Arvus will bottom out and then there is nowhere for them to go. just make climbing a really bad prospect and then force them down..

mattjgilbert
06-03-2007, 23:21
Actually it's more than 50% isn't it so you'd still have to take down at least 1 TBolt...

[Edit] Yeah the BattleTech way of working initiative is cool and might be interesting to introduce to AI.

greenmtvince
07-03-2007, 00:52
Still: it's quite dirty. Remember: the AI book is a massive hardcover - use the rules, hit the bugger. ;)

That is hands down the best gaming advice I've ever read!

Cry of the Wind
07-03-2007, 16:18
I would think the Battletech method is probably something that I'd make a house rule for all games simply because you don't need to have flying bricks ruining your fun, anytime someone becomes outnumbered its hard to fight well. I was playing a game the other day with just 4 on 4 with my Imperial Navy fighting itself in a demo game. After one pass my poor squadron suffered some bad rolling (I hit nothing but lost 2 Thunderbolts in return...) found myself outnumbered 2:1. This forced me to basically disengage despite having almost full ammo since everytime I got into a good spot to shoot the other player had a fighter or two ready to fire back or tail me simply because he knew he could bait me and there was nothing I could do about it (if I take the bait I might kill it but lose a plane and if I don't take it he'll probably end up shooting me anyway).

Morph
07-03-2007, 18:00
Hmm... I would never have considered this dirty, I just thought of it as the advantage of having large forces of cheap ships.

I play Chaos, and so my force is mostly cheap Hellblades. Eldar are expensive, so I tend to outnumber them by quite a few aircraft. So I will fly one or two of the blades off somewhere safe just to see where the Eldar are moving. Then my final few blades can pinpoint them and fire.

It's an advantage I get, to make up for my ships having 1 hit point!

DaCone2
07-03-2007, 23:21
You would have to be careful with that house rule as it takes away one of the eldars disadvantages.

Tyra_Nid
08-03-2007, 06:51
It's an advantage I get, to make up for my ships having 1 hit point!

See, thats an advantage built into the Chaos ships. You are still paying a moderate amount for the ships (12 points vs 4 points), they have weapons and can DO things, and make up the core of your force- Meant to be a swarmy army.

Whereas an Arvus is only a third of the points, has two hits so isnt that fragile, but contributes nothing to a fighter-vs-fighter scenario.

The Imperials arent MEANT to get the movement/positioning bonus' of a swarm army (which an ArvuSwarm gives, at a relatively cheap price), but Chaos ARE.

Thats the vital difference.

orangesm
08-03-2007, 13:53
I think you could actually see this on the table top - especially for say the convoy mission. So using the Arvus as bait comes with the mission, but they also need to survive - so the Thunderbolts moves are not that hard to predict, leave enough room between the Thunderbolt and Arvus for a Nightwing to get in there, Imperial player changes order of shooting to get the Nightwing.

Cry of the Wind
08-03-2007, 15:35
It seems to be an advantage that dosen't make much sense to me. Sure if you outnumber your enemy it will be easier to catch him since you can fill more of the sky with planes thus cutting off escape or baiting or whatever. I don't see the outnumbering force being able to better predict where the enemy is going.

They way it works now especially when using Very-High manouver aircraft allows you to take open ended manouvers like 10 or 5 and possition yourself regardless of what the enemy does simply because you've seen him move all his planes and thus can move your remaining fighters with no fear of him countering you. I'm not sure the points reflect that (since you only get the advantage if your cheaper, but if you pay points for it your not cheap anymore and lose it...).

I haven't seen Eldar beat Chaos yet simply for that reason alone. The Eldar player could not effectively engage the enemy since he couldn't see most of them. Sure a few die but when 12 dice are rolling to hit on your 6 it doesn't matter if you have holo-fields.

Maybe I just need to see a few more games but it seems that most of the time as soon as you start to outnumber your opponent (2 or 3 more planes if your about equal, twice as many as them if your cheaper) you're probably going to win unless your dice hate you.

Morph
08-03-2007, 18:40
Whereas an Arvus is only a third of the points, has two hits so isnt that fragile, but contributes nothing to a fighter-vs-fighter scenario.

The Imperials arent MEANT to get the movement/positioning bonus' of a swarm army (which an ArvuSwarm gives, at a relatively cheap price), but Chaos ARE.



Fair enough. I don't have access to the book and none of my group have used the Arvus, so I didn't realise. I revise my opinion - this list is pure cheese!