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EvC
07-03-2007, 21:03
...so, given that it does not explicitly say in the spell description that it can affect units in combat, if the Comet falls and units are within its range of effect but are fighting in combat, do they take damage, or do they ignore it? :eyebrows:

TKitch
07-03-2007, 21:07
I believe AoE spells can be used on anyone.

I know direct fire spells have an issue with combat, but Comet is not targeting a unit, (unless they're dumb enough to stand under it! ;))

Atrahasis
07-03-2007, 22:07
The OP is correct, Comet cannot affect units in combat.

blahblahblah
08-03-2007, 00:10
The OP is correct, Comet cannot affect units in combat.

REALLY!?!?!? that would be so completely ridiculous if something explodes, blowing up a huge area except for the few feet where a bunch of guys are beating each other up. why run away from a giant falling piece of rock when you can fully shield yourself by punching a guy in the face? I think if combat isn't a defence against a mortar or rock lobber hit, it shouldn't save you from a comet crashing to the earth...:wtf:

I've just been off looking for where it says that it doesn't affect units in combat, but I can't find it, any help would be appreciated, otherwise I'd be prone to believe it does.

Alathir
08-03-2007, 00:14
For me... it would be too stupid to assume that units fighting each other that are under a giant comet when it hits the earth are immune to it. As a rule, the comet is completely indisciminate to me and can kill whoever the hell it wants.

bluesky322
08-03-2007, 01:25
i believe that it affect everyone

Jonke
08-03-2007, 01:31
The OP is correct, Comet cannot affect units in combat.

Because units in combat aren't affected by spells unless the spell say it does?

Yellow Commissar
08-03-2007, 01:52
The OP is correct, Comet cannot affect units in combat.


I'm not seeing that in the rules I am reading on pages 107 and 116. What wording are you referring to?

kruzkal
08-03-2007, 02:00
From the rule book, only magic missiles cannot be cast against an engaged unit.

exsulis
08-03-2007, 02:18
The comet kinda feels like a stone thrower shot to me. You wouldn't want it to hit your guys but there are instances where a stone thrower could indeed hit your own guys. The comet is no different, it is a declared spot, and hits units in a radius of the center.

DaBrode
08-03-2007, 02:19
The OP is correct, Comet cannot affect units in combat.

Would you care to elaborate on this?


The comet kinda feels like a stone thrower shot to me. You wouldn't want it to hit your guys but there are instances where a stone thrower could indeed hit your own guys. The comet is no different, it is a declared spot, and hits units in a radius of the center.

This is correct.

Caern
08-03-2007, 02:21
Page 107 specifies that spells cannot be cast at units in close combat (unless of course a spell says otherwise). That is the only thing that being in close combat prevents.

The spell doesn't have to say it can affect units in close combat, because the rules don't require it to - it's not being cast at any unit at all - it's being cast at a fixed point on the battlefield, and there is no rule anywhere that makes a unit in close combat immune to spells - they simply can't have spells cast *at* them unless specified otherwise.

To sum up - if the comet is raining down on you - fighting someone else is not going to make it dissapear.

explorator
08-03-2007, 02:30
From the rule book, only magic missiles cannot be cast against an engaged unit.

Page 107 stipulates that

Wizards cannot cast spells at units engaged in close combat, unless the spell only affects the caster himself or the spell's description specifies otherwise.

Howerver, the Comet is not cast at units at all, rather

This spell can be cast upon any fixed point on the tabletop.

and

All units from either side that are within D6" multiplied by the number of markers already placed are struck by the comet

I would say the Comet affects just what it descibes, all units within range, even if they are in close combat. It is possible that one unit in a close combat will be in range and struck while another is not.

DeathlessDraich
08-03-2007, 07:02
You've brought the Comet down to Earth, explorator. Irrefutably correct!

Vattendroppe
08-03-2007, 09:14
Page 107 stipulates that

Wizards cannot cast spells at units engaged in close combat, unless the spell only affects the caster himself or the spell's description specifies otherwise.

Howerver, the Comet is not cast at units at all, rather

This spell can be cast upon any fixed point on the tabletop.

and

All units from either side that are within D6" multiplied by the number of markers already placed are struck by the comet

I would say the Comet affects just what it descibes, all units within range, even if they are in close combat. It is possible that one unit in a close combat will be in range and struck while another is not.

That's correct. THe comet isn't CAST on the unit, it just affects it. Just like a stone thrower or mortar would do.

Otherwise I think everyone would have a spare snotling in their pocket to start beating if rocks and comets were starting to fall at the sky! :rolleyes:

EvC
08-03-2007, 09:57
Well that makes more sense I guess. Does that mean the target point can't be on a unit itself, then?

Tili
08-03-2007, 10:40
You just pick a point below the unit...
eg. the target point is under the unit :)

peteratwar
08-03-2007, 10:47
A unit is never targetted. A point on the ground is the destination. If a unit happens to be on that point then bad luck for the unit

T10
08-03-2007, 10:58
As the target is a fixed point, any effects that might reorganize scenery and such (Tree Singing) will not move the target point.

-T10

EvC
08-03-2007, 12:51
So it is also possible to make the target for Arnizapal's Black Horror as being underneath a unit (Even a unit in combat!) then? That'd be an interesting conclusion.

explorator
08-03-2007, 14:40
So it is also possible to make the target for Arnizapal's Black Horror as being underneath a unit (Even a unit in combat!) then? That'd be an interesting conclusion.

I would not draw that conclusion from this thread. The wording for Black Horror is not similar to the wording of the Comet. Nothing in the spell description of Black Horror indicates that it can be cast at units in combat.

Atrahasis
08-03-2007, 14:57
Black Horror isn't cast at a unit at all, it is cast at a point on the tabletop, just like comet. You can't have it both ways.

DeathlessDraich
08-03-2007, 15:40
Atrahasis??

Atrahasis
08-03-2007, 15:43
Atrahasis??

Yes DeathlessDraich?

DeathlessDraich
08-03-2007, 15:58
Not sure what you meant/ implied in your previous post. Black Horror is not specifically cast on a unit but unlike the Comet, it is an 18" LOS and not a tabletop spell and fixed pt isn't used in its wording.
I don't think you intended to imply that but your previous post is confusing.

explorator
08-03-2007, 16:17
Black Horror isn't cast at a unit at all, it is cast at a point on the tabletop, just like comet. You can't have it both ways.

I knew that this Black Horror issue was a trap. I think in this thread the mechanics of the Comet spell regarding units in combat has been resolved. The rules specific to the Comet are not the same as those for Black Horror. The Comet is not resolved when cast, Black Horror is. I will quote the rules again

BRB pg. 107

Wizards cannot cast spells at units engaged in close combat, unless the spell affects the caster himself or the spell's description specifies otherwise.

The spell description for Black Horror does not specify that it may be cast at units engaged in close combat. If a sorceress successfully casts Black Horror any attempt to place the template over an enemy unit engaged in close combat would break the above rule.

Atrahasis
08-03-2007, 16:31
No it wouldn't, as you yourself have said the only restriction is that spells cannot be cast at units in combat. Black Horror is not cast at a unit, regardless of whether it might affect one.

DeathlessDraich
08-03-2007, 16:51
You've sent me rushing back to the rule book again!
Black Horror is not cast on a unit but also its rules do not state it is cast at anything! I suppose it is similar to Skaven Vermintide and will affect units in combat.

explorator
08-03-2007, 17:22
Black Horror is not cast at a unit, regardless of whether it might affect one.

Of course if the caster decides to place the template over empty space then the spell is not cast at a unit. If the caster attempts to place the template over a unit/units then it is de facto cast at a unit. If the unit/units are in close combat then they are not legal targets of this spell.

Atrahasis
08-03-2007, 17:34
In that case if Comet is placed so that it might affect a uniut is is de facto cast at a unit. You can't have it both ways.

enyoss
08-03-2007, 17:41
Does anyone have the exact wording of Black Horror to hand? This may make this a bit easier :).

Cheers,

enyoss

DarthBinky
08-03-2007, 17:45
Place the large (5") template anywhere within line of sight and with the centre within 18" of the wizard.
Then it goes on to talk about how to resolve hits (ie under are autohit, partials are 4+).

enyoss
08-03-2007, 17:51
Place the large (5") template anywhere within line of sight and with the centre within 18" of the wizard.

Well, if that's the exact wording I'd say units that lie under the template are hit whether in combat or not. Possibly sloppy wording on the spell, but it seems fair and within the rules to me.

Cheers,

enyoss

DarthBinky
08-03-2007, 17:58
I may be thinking of 40k, but don't close combats block LOS?

Atrahasis
08-03-2007, 17:59
I may be thinking of 40k, but don't close combats block LOS?

Models block LOS whether in combat or not.

However, the only requirement other than range is that the template has to be in LOS, so as long as the caster can see any part of the template that is satisfied.

NakedFisherman
08-03-2007, 18:06
Yep, they both seem to affect units in combat.

explorator
08-03-2007, 19:47
In that case if Comet is placed so that it might affect a uniut is is de facto cast at a unit. You can't have it both ways.

The Comet is niether "placed" nor are its results determined when it is cast. The Comet and Black Horror have different spell descriptions and work in different ways. It is not a matter of "having it both ways".

dominic_carrillo
08-03-2007, 19:50
yes it can affect units in combat. its a ******** comet.

loveless
08-03-2007, 20:33
yes it can affect units in combat. its a ******** comet.

quoted for hilarity

Atrahasis
08-03-2007, 21:40
The Comet is niether "placed" nor are its results determined when it is cast. The Comet and Black Horror have different spell descriptions and work in different ways. It is not a matter of "having it both ways".

Neither of the differences you highlight are relevant. The rules prohibit casting at units in combat. Black Horror is not cast at a unit.

Tutore
09-03-2007, 06:24
My interpretation is that the comet affects all units within radius. However there are more expert forum members here, so I´m beginning to think I shouldn´t say my opinion about rules.

EvC
09-03-2007, 12:25
Funny conclusions made, love it.

Next question: The Burning Head. If there's a unit in combat in the way, can it still be cast? I suppose going by the Comet/ Horror (Pit of Shades too? :) ) way of thinking, it can be cast on affect units in combat...

Atrahasis
09-03-2007, 13:08
Yes, burning head is cast in a direction, not on a unit.

DarthBinky
09-03-2007, 14:31
(Pit of Shades too? :) )
The first sentence of the Pit's rules excludes it from this discussion. ;)

Commander Zhypher
09-03-2007, 16:15
The comet is cast, then i can take a couple of turns for it to hit.

this is why i think the comet should affect units in combat, beacuse you never know what might lie under the target when it crashes down.

afaik. this is the only spell with this abillity, and shouldent be compared with other spells, and comes under the rule of "special case"

Atrahasis
09-03-2007, 16:24
That's a lovely bit of speculation, however the rules disagree with it entirely.

guillaume
09-03-2007, 17:16
You cannot target a unit with comet of casandora.

You put a coin on the table. If after several turn of no shows a unit stands on that coin when the comet comes down, then fair game.

You certainly CANNOT choose a point that is underneath the unit, since you cant see that point.

Also as far as units in combat. This is how I resolve it.

The comet hits all units within range.
If it hits a unit that is in cc:

1- your roll 2D6 to see how many hits it does as per rule.
2- then you allocate those hits on the two units: 1-3 unit A, 4-6 unit B
3- then roll to wound for each unit. Obviously they dont get to take Ld test if they take more than 25% casualties since they are engaged.

This situation has come up once or twice, and my opponents have always been more than happy to use that ruling.

it is similar to skaven gun teams shooting units that are in cc.

Atrahasis
09-03-2007, 17:22
You certainly CANNOT choose a point that is underneath the unit, since you cant see that point.Comet does not require LOS.


Also as far as units in combat. This is how I resolve it.

The comet hits all units within range.
If it hits a unit that is in cc:

1- your roll 2D6 to see how many hits it does as per rule.
2- then you allocate those hits on the two units: 1-3 unit A, 4-6 unit B
3- then roll to wound for each unit. Obviously they dont get to take Ld test if they take more than 25% casualties since they are engaged.

This situation has come up once or twice, and my opponents have always been more than happy to use that ruling.

it is similar to skaven gun teams shooting units that are in cc.That's nice, as long as you realise that it is entirely a house rule.

DarthBinky
09-03-2007, 18:20
That's nice, as long as you realise that it is entirely a house rule.
Well, the part about not taking Panic tests from it is true... ;)

guillaume
09-03-2007, 21:07
That's nice, as long as you realise that it is entirely a house rule.

Sure, but as long as everybody agrees then thats fine. It is afterall one way to apply the rules.

Otherwise, we are still in the dark as to whether units in cc are or are not affected, and at some point during the game, a decision has to be reached.

The rules arent explicit enough, so saying that the comet doesnt affect units in cc can be perceived as a house rule.

loveless
09-03-2007, 22:36
Hey, everyone takes 2d6 hits, right?
So if A and B are engaged...A takes 2d6...B takes 2d6...I see no reason to randomize one set of hits

EvC
10-03-2007, 13:53
Yeah, that'd definitely be how it's done, if it were to be done :D

explorator
19-03-2007, 02:55
No it wouldn't, as you yourself have said the only restriction is that spells cannot be cast at units in combat. Black Horror is not cast at a unit, regardless of whether it might affect one.

Warhammer Chronicles 2004 pg. 115 Q&A

Q. Is the 5" template generated by the Dark Magic spell, Black Horror, allowed to be placed on enemy units in close combat?

A. No

Ahh, sweet vindication.

DeathlessDraich
19-03-2007, 09:06
Warhammer Chronicles 2004 pg. 115 Q&A

Q. Is the 5" template generated by the Dark Magic spell, Black Horror, allowed to be placed on enemy units in close combat?

A. No

Ahh, sweet vindication.

I'm not sure whether army specific rules from Chronicles are still valid in 7th. It does create more problems elsewhere if they are.
The DE present Errata is definitely valid and references to general rules in Chronicles certainly cannot be valid.

Enoshima
19-03-2007, 09:08
I read somewhere (don't know where anymore sadly) that the comet can hit units in CC.

As for hitting the unit, in stead of arguing wether you could place it in a unit, just place it directly against it. Since the range is at least 1" it wil certainly hit the unit, also if you place it at the opponents side of the battle, there is a chance your units won't get hit.

explorator
19-03-2007, 15:29
I read the Sticky at the top of the Rules forum (FAQ), and it says that if you have a question try to look for a answer yourself by using Official GW Publications. Warhammer Chronicles 2004 (WC2004) is on the list and the majority of the Official Online Resources are pulled from WC2004. The Q & A in WC2004 is labeled as 'Official Rules'. I think it is a valid source for rules clarificaitons on this Forum. With only two 7th Ed. Armybooks published there is going to be mass of unanswered questions for a while.