PDA

View Full Version : Hiding behind a Warmachine??



FatOlaf
08-03-2007, 11:55
Can a Champion with Hochland still target a Dwarf Engineer even though the Grudge Thrower is actually blocking the LOS? Or can he only shoot the unit randomly?

Avian
08-03-2007, 11:59
He can pick out any model within line of sight. If it isn't in line of sight, then he cannot target him. It's the same if the character was in a unit, but on the opposite side relative to the Marksman - he couldn't shoot him then either.

But he could shoot at the unit using the normal rules and then have a chance of hitting the Engineer, yes. :p

gortexgunnerson
08-03-2007, 12:53
I believe that is incorrect, I think he may target the Engineer as he can see the unit and presumely draw line of sight threw the unit to the engineer. The unit is a skirmish unit and does not block line of sight to other members of the unit and hence the warmachine does not block line of sight to the engineer.

Using the unit example of a unit with character other side the marksman cannot target nor could the character shoot at the marksman as the unit blocks line of sight. In the case of skirmishers the engineer can draw line of sight to the Marksman therefore the marksmen should have line of sight to the engineer. I realise this is dangerously close to logical which almost certainly makes it wrong lol.

WLBjork
08-03-2007, 14:08
A war machine and it's crew don't count as skirmishing...

Afraid you're wrong gortexgunnerson.

gortexgunnerson
08-03-2007, 15:07
Afraid you're wrong gortexgunnerson.

Fair enough, i apoligide avian, so in that line of thinking the warmachine therefore blocks line of sight for the crew lol or is Los decided from the machine?

Also how much line of sight does it block. Having no base size having a big machine may not be an advantage or if a markmen can see the target through the warmachine model can he shoot it?

DeathlessDraich
08-03-2007, 15:47
If the warmachine is on a hill, it is possible to 'shelter' the Engineer by putting him behind the hill, less than an 1" away.

FatOlaf
09-03-2007, 12:28
Or even behind another crew member?

Avian
09-03-2007, 13:05
Yep. If you see a VIP protected by bodyguards then the guards do indeed place themselves between the VIP and anywhere a sniper may lurk.

Works in Warhammer too.

FatOlaf
09-03-2007, 13:34
Good it's what I thought, thanks!

DeathlessDraich
09-03-2007, 14:02
Or even behind another crew member?

Actually I was referring to the Hochland rifle only, although I now think it's debatable!

An dwarf engineer is effectively always sheltered from 'non template' shooting when he has joined the warmachine.
Shooting hits are randomised between machine and crew only and the engineer does not have to be the crew until the dwarf shooting phase. (from memory - haven't got the book on me at the moment).

FatOlaf
09-03-2007, 14:45
Actually I was referring to the Hochland rifle only, although I now think it's debatable!

An dwarf engineer is effectively always sheltered from 'non template' shooting when he has joined the warmachine.
Shooting hits are randomised between machine and crew only and the engineer does not have to be the crew until the dwarf shooting phase. (from memory - haven't got the book on me at the moment).


So therefore until that phase he is a single character then that would be blocked by anything in front of him then..

DeathlessDraich
09-03-2007, 14:57
More than 'blocked'. He simply would not be affected. 50 arrows might hit the warmachine as a whole and destroy the whole crew, the engineer will still be unaffected and all 'extra' hits discounted - the same as a character in a unit of 5 infantry which is destroyed by shooting - the character will always survive!

As for shielding the character behind another model against the Hochland long rifle - this is virtually impossible as the character, rifle and shielding model will all have to be in perfect alignment - less than a fraction of a mm leeway.

Avian
09-03-2007, 14:58
An dwarf engineer is effectively always sheltered from 'non template' shooting when he has joined the warmachine.
Shooting hits are randomised between machine and crew only and the engineer does not have to be the crew until the dwarf shooting phase. (from memory - haven't got the book on me at the moment).
Page 85 of the rulebook says you're wrong. :p

DeathlessDraich
09-03-2007, 15:03
Possibly, which section Avian?

FatOlaf
09-03-2007, 15:15
As for shielding the character behind another model against the Hochland long rifle - this is virtually impossible as the character, rifle and shielding model will all have to be in perfect alignment - less than a fraction of a mm leeway.

Yeah true but it was more a what if? question, but the key thing is whether or not the warmachine does block LOS, and it does so that's cool.
And I think Avain is right about the rule. I think the engineer is in the unit and hits are randomised with him as well. But he is not affected by machine misfires.

Avian
09-03-2007, 15:30
Possibly, which section Avian?
The one called "Hits on crew/characters" ;)

Jonke
09-03-2007, 16:19
A dwarf engineer is a unit upgrade i.e. champion and would be killed if all the crew are wiped out by shooting. The master engineer is a character and follows the rules on p. 85.

Peace!

DeathlessDraich
09-03-2007, 18:40
The one called "Hits on crew/characters" ;)

This statement?

pg 85 "...but if a machine includes a character, he may be hit by shots directed at the machine"

Does this statement cover characters that have joined a warmachine?
["a machine which includes a character" is a poor phrase for a start]

I think you've read 'machine which includes a character' as encompassing characters intrinsically part of the warmachine* and characters joining a warmachine.

I see it as covering only warmachines which already has a character e.g. *Malakai's Goblin Hewer.

A debatable point. :p

Jonke
09-03-2007, 21:37
@Deathless Draich: So how would you play it with a character wich has joined the war-machine?

DeathlessDraich
10-03-2007, 08:15
Personally, Jonke?:p
Unless my opponent is adamant, , I will randomise shooting hits between crew and the machine only.

Dwarf pg 39 [I]"In any given shooting phase, a Master Engineer or engineer who has joined a war machine can act as additional crew ...or fire personal weaponry".

Dwarven engineers strangely enough are not part of the crew and moreover seem to be part of the crew only in the Dwarf shooting phase.

Empire Engineers seem to be similar - " An Engineer can replace one crew member".

Further support for the above can be found in the misfire rules - only crewmen are affected and not characters who have joined the warmachine.[and not shot the machine].

Avian
10-03-2007, 10:57
Yes, you are correct that characters do not usually become crew, but page 85 explicitly deal with characters who have joined the machine and nowhere is it required that they be crew to be hit.
"if a machine includes a character, he may be hit by shots directed at the machine."

If a character has joined a machine, he can be hit, whether he acts as crew or not.


I see it as covering only warmachines which already has a character e.g. *Malakai's Goblin Hewer.
Based on what, exactly? That is a somewhat odd interpretation of the word "includes", isn't it?

DeathlessDraich
10-03-2007, 12:21
Yes, you are correct that characters do not usually become crew, but page 85 explicitly deal with characters who have joined the machine and nowhere is it required that they be crew to be hit.
"if a machine includes a character, he may be hit by shots directed at the machine."
If a character has joined a machine, he can be hit, whether he acts as crew or not.
Based on what, exactly? That is a somewhat odd interpretation of the word "includes", isn't it?

I suppose I've got a touch of 'Atrahasis fever' :p in demanding that words be intepreted with precision.

I don't think my interpretation is too far fetched but I admit it is certainly not decisive.

1) A machine cannot include a character but a Warmachine can - minor point but it shows whoever wrote that sentence is not being precise.
2) The statement starts with "Usually a machine's crew members are identical, so it is not necessary to determine which [crew] is hit but if a machine includes a character...".
a) "Usually a machine's crew members are identical" is a strong implication that the rest of the sentence refers to crew members and hence characters who have become crew members.
b)If the sentence had been phrased as "... which is hit but if a Warmachine is joined by a character...", then it would be clear cut.
Stating it 'includes' a character could be interpreted as the character comes with the warmachine originally.

3) Tha last part of the statement again creates unnecesary ambiguity " he may be hit by shots directed at the machine". This could mean that after shots have been randomised between crew and machine and the shots hitting the machine affects the character! Fortunately the last sentence clears this up.

Avian
10-03-2007, 12:33
I fail to see what you mean by #1. In #2 you are quoting a rule that says the opposite.

I also dispute your #2a, since the war machine section itself states that characters who join war machines do not become crew and provides no exception to this.

And in #2b we come back to my original question: Why do you think that "includes" means "comes with originally". You have not given a reason for this, just restated that you interpret it this way.

And you #3 makes little sense, since the machine itself cannot be targeted normally (and when there is an exception to this, the shot would never hit the character anyway).

FatOlaf
10-03-2007, 13:39
Yep I think DD has gone a slight bit....
I do not agree with it, Characters if stated as part of the crew can be hit randomly from missile fire.
Reading DD's last post made my eyes start to bleed a little....

DeathlessDraich
10-03-2007, 16:56
Point taken.
I'll withdraw.:p

alextroy
10-03-2007, 17:03
From War Machines, page 85:

Characters
"A character may join a war machine's crew..."
"However, only crew can operate a machine, a character cannot..."

Hits on Crew Characters
"... if a machine includes a character, he may be hit by shots directed at the machine..."

The rules obviously applies to characters who join a machine who cannot operate the machine.

gortexgunnerson
10-03-2007, 21:43
the engineer does not have to be the crew until the dwarf shooting phase. (from memory - haven't got the book on me at the moment).

surely if this was true the poor engineer would be magic fodder :( any none magic missile should as master of stone could target him separately and lead to a very dead character. Although I cannot see how a character could join as crew in the shooting phase being as the rules for characters joining units relate to the movement phase.

On a note of the rule I cannot see anything that would diswade me from believing a character who has joined a warmachine as crew or non crew could avoid being hit. The rules for randomisation is included in the section

FatOlaf
11-03-2007, 13:08
On a note of the rule I cannot see anything that would diswade me from believing a character who has joined a warmachine as crew or non crew could avoid being hit. The rules for randomisation is included in the section


That was never in doubt at least by me, the point of the thread was about using a hochland or other sniper to single out the character even if the LOS was blocked..