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Xandros
08-03-2007, 22:17
This isn't actually a whimpering nerf-cry. It's an observation that bloodletters in their current incarnation are not at all desirable to a Worldeaters list, save for an actual daemon-bomb list. As well, their rules are not remotely interesting - At least not for me, and I guess, I can only speak for myself. I don't know what could save them as an original unit, which is why I'm making this thread in the interest of personal amusement and a sick desire to drive from the back seat. They used to have a regeneration rule. That could be interesting if brought back.

Simply, Worldeaters don't need a unit with powered armour and ditto weapons. Berzerkers are pretty much that. Bloodletters should do something that berzerkers can't.

Grimtuff
08-03-2007, 22:21
....All Bloodletters need is a 4+ save and a slight pts increase. That's it.

They can do many things Zerkers cannot do, such as not get shot up, they're unaffected by Blood Frenzy, all with Power Weapons.

Ko Improbable
08-03-2007, 22:21
This isn't actually a whimpering nerf-cry. It's an observation that bloodletters in their current incarnation are not at all desirable to a Worldeaters list, save for an actual daemon-bomb list. As well, their rules are not remotely interesting - At least not for me, and I guess, I can only speak for myself. I don't know what could save them as an original unit, which is why I'm making this thread in the interest of personal amusement and a sick desire to drive from the back seat. They used to have a regeneration rule. That could be interesting if brought back.

Simply, Worldeaters don't need a unit with powered armour and ditto weapons. Berzerkers are pretty much that. Bloodletters should do something that berzerkers can't.

Well, Bloodletters can't be shot up until they're summoned, so there's an advantage to them. They get saves against weapons that would leave Berserkers with only the hope for 1s being rolled to save them.
But, I kinda do see your point.

Kjell
08-03-2007, 22:26
The main problem with Bloodletters is not their power level. It's actually that they are in a completely different league compared to the other daemons and, even, to Troop choices in general.

If they had Ld8, no Armour save, Heavy Close Combat Weapons and were costed accordingly no one would mind. As it is now, they're basically the movie version. :p

lord_blackfang
08-03-2007, 22:27
Simply, Worldeaters don't need a unit with powered armour and ditto weapons. Berzerkers are pretty much that. Bloodletters should do something that berzerkers can't.

You have a good point. But what could they do? They're melee nutter daemons in an army of melee nutter mortals.

Overlord Krycis
08-03-2007, 22:39
Simply, Worldeaters don't need a unit with powered armour and ditto weapons. Berzerkers are pretty much that. Bloodletters should do something that berzerkers can't.

So World Eaters don't need a unit with default power weapons, an invulnerable save, the ability to hit your opponent's lines practically untouched...especially when you could potentially have the rest of your force shot to pieces due to their inability to stay in the freaking transport where it is (relatively) safe?
:eyebrows:
I think they should keep them as is, but increase the abilities of the other daemons to make undivided lists take the other Powers over the raving, frothy, loony, psycho daemons.
The only other option I would say is to increase the points value to bring them in line with their abilities.

Icarus
08-03-2007, 23:22
I think the OP raises a good point, in that Bloodletters are far more useful to other Chaos armies like Word Bearers than they are to their native World Eaters. However Bloodletters are currently the best of the Daemon choices, so I think improving them would be kind of ridiculous, especially as it would mean their already high point cost would have to go up even more.

Alessander
09-03-2007, 01:06
They are still, points-wise, the most expensive infantry troop choices in the game. High twenties in points a pop is a LOT, even more than Grey Knights.

Chaos Lord Primus
09-03-2007, 01:12
Ahem.

Wraithguard are the most expensive infantry Troops choice in the game.

But, more to the point, I think that the Bloodletters are fine, just that the Horrors/Flamers and Plaguebearers need to be tuned up.

Quade Collins
09-03-2007, 01:34
I think bloodletters are over powered. I have seen them tear through a space marine army. They only died when there was no one left on that side of the board to eat. Arrived first turn charge, everyone in the squad dies, except two who were out of range. For 26 points they are better then grey knights, They should either lose the armor save (they are still daemons) or get a worse save. Then again i don't play with them, so my opinion may differ if that ever happens.

Nostro
09-03-2007, 02:30
As someone said, they are not in the same league as other minor daemons. Tone them down or buff the others up. I'd prefer to see them toned down (well and horrors made worth taking). And the very list would be to put the save to 4+. It is not normal that a psycannon be so worthless against bloodletters compared to other daemons.

Nurgling Chieftain
09-03-2007, 02:42
Heheh, the thread originator didn't want to whine, but virtually everyone else did. Bloodletters' points are fine for what they are; well in line with, say, incubi, who BTW cost less and will kick their asses on average.

I kind of agree with the other point, though, which is that World Eaters really don't have much use for them.

Aekold
09-03-2007, 02:45
Well i hope my blood letters shall wreak some havoq in my friends army =) at least try em out. And yes i play WE.

cailus
09-03-2007, 03:54
Bloodletters may be overpowered but are nowhere near as nasty as mounted Daemonettes. Just yesterday I saw a unit of them tear apart an Imperial Fist army.

Their biggest strength is to move up to 24 inches the turn they are summoned.

DrDoom
09-03-2007, 04:13
I think they're fine as is, but other daemons should be brought up to their level. The only other daemons that I've seen played are daemonettes and the Greater Daemons.

I would hate to go back to third where nobody ever used any lesser daemons.

DesertDirge
09-03-2007, 13:44
BL's are perfect the way they are!! They play just like their fluff and they cost a lot (26pts) to boot!!

best way to take out bloodletters is to kill the squad that's going to try to summon it!!!!

geesh people whine alot on these boards!! ;)

Aekold
09-03-2007, 13:56
haha yes they do, but ill guess it is a common thing on big forums =)

Platuan4th
09-03-2007, 13:59
Ahem.

Wraithguard are the most expensive infantry Troops choice in the game.


Deathwing terminators are more expensive than Wraithguard, meaning that Deathwing are the most expensive troops.

As to the original topic, Bloodletters most certainly have a place in World Eater armies, mostly because of their Invulnerable saves and Summoning. They're better Terminator hunters than 'Zerkers because of that added durability.

jfrazell
09-03-2007, 14:20
I think bloodletters are over powered. I have seen them tear through a space marine army. They only died when there was no one left on that side of the board to eat. Arrived first turn charge, everyone in the squad dies, except two who were out of range. For 26 points they are better then grey knights, They should either lose the armor save (they are still daemons) or get a worse save. Then again i don't play with them, so my opinion may differ if that ever happens.

Because thats what they were designed to do. They can't shoot or move in a transport, and eldar/DE/Nids CC boys go through them like CENSORED through a goose with their high initiative, and are still vulnerable to instability unlike every marine out there.

WE are a specific list. Undivided and Khorne forces use them as well and they are a needed adjunct. Its nice to see a unit that can clip marines if it actually makes it to the line, but is vulnerable to horde lists due to their high cost. Frankly, BL's don't need to be tuned down, the other demon choices need to be tuned up.

Joewrightgm
09-03-2007, 14:25
I think a Strength 5 power weapon with a 3+/5+ save that can drop out of the warp (mostly) where you want it is very strong, but then for 26 points it had better be.

As shock troops in a World Eaters list, they most definitly have a place, because before you blood rage, your blood letters drop, then the opponent has the unsavory choice whether to shoot the blood letters or the Berserkers that summoned them, creating something of a no-win, because one will reach him and start collecting heads.

my 2 bits.

OrlyggJafnakol
09-03-2007, 14:43
Change the rules, change the miniatures. Bring back the thin, twisted evil bloodletters of 1990!! I used to love the old hellblades... get fluff and a great rule IIRC.

dr vompire
09-03-2007, 14:53
just a quick question (which ought to go in the rules fora but as this is here...) do daemons being summoned have to be summoned before the summoning unit moves? my WE friend has a habit of getting 18"+ charges out of them, not that i'm that bothered because against my guard and orks they're rubbish...

Poisonpen
09-03-2007, 14:57
This is strictly my opinion, so keep that in mind:

Bloodletters could use a change since they do not fit well with other Daemons in the Chaos list. How so? They cost almost twice as much and are for the most part worth it. While this is not bad per se, it creates a disconnect between one type of daemon and the rest. This could be remedied in two ways: either make other daemons more powerful, or make Bloodletters milder in their role on the battlefield, and make them cost a similar mid-teens amount in points to make all daemons fit into a similarly costed area of the roster.

How to go about dropping the point cost by 8... well, first drop the power armor, unless they change the model this has to go. Really, is a breastplate enough to justify a 3+ save?

I don't care how hell-forged your armor is: if it doesn't cover anything you are still unprotected! This isnít Everquest!

I would give them a 4+ armor save on account that the point would otherwise be moot given the way the AP system operates, but I would drop their statline to S4 and give them a great-weapon instead of some random excuse for a power weapon, thus putting them back to S5, but getting rid of the power weapons.

On a similar note as to the other deamons: I would also drop Daemonettes strength to 3 on account that rending is good enough as-is and they do not really need much CC help beyond this anyway, it would also help make them less of a 'no-brainer.' Plaguebearers seem decent, and I love the way they play. Horrors are so messed up I cannot think of an answer to help them beyond 'increase range by 6í or so... but that has seemed like a cop out since the Eldar dex' came out...

And there you go, all Daemons go back to having a 15ish point cost as they should. With Bloodletters being about 17-18? It also brings more variety to World Eaters as they at least do not have 'yet another' 3+ save beasty at their disposal. Again, this is just my opinion -so if you completely disagree... well, my ideas will never happen so be happy that you win! :p

Avian
09-03-2007, 15:03
I agree with Poisonpen. It's not that the Bloodletters are not okay-ish at 26 points, they just aren't in line with the other daemons, for some reason. Why is this type of daemon a lot better and a lot more expensive than the others?

And why is what is a 6+ armour save in FB suddenly a 3+ armour save in 40K?

ashc
09-03-2007, 15:31
And why is what is a 6+ armour save in FB suddenly a 3+ armour save in 40K?

Its things like that that makes the brain hurts, Avian :p

I completely agree that all daemons need to be brought in line with one another in some way; and the most ridiculous thing certainly is that armour save.

Ash

Bookwrak
09-03-2007, 15:33
Because in FB, you don't have to make them survivable charging a Bolter gunline?

Darloc
09-03-2007, 15:41
Avian: They are more expensive because they are better?

machine_recovered_meat
09-03-2007, 15:45
Slightly OT but related in terms of bringing other daemons into line:-

Horrors should be:
buy pink for x points.
Pink dies -----> gets replaced by 2 blue [slightly lesser profile]

Used to work fine. And be fun.

Xandros
09-03-2007, 15:56
Yeah, no, as a matter of fact not at all. Most of you have only glanced at the title and fancied to make general assumptions and guesswork about the actual content of my post (Yeah, I assure you it's there.). I don't care if bloodletters are powerful or not. They are boring as hell.

But that's not what you wanted to hear, was it?

ashc
09-03-2007, 16:10
well in that case what do you think makes them 'boring as hell'? what would you rather have them do? i mean, what they do is what they have done for about 20 years of the game since their conception.... they kill things.

Ash

Carlos
09-03-2007, 16:12
Im going to moan about nerfing them: If theres one thing in the chaos army that needs toning down, it is these guys.

WS5? S5? Power Weapons? Summoned? 3+/5+Sv? I5? These guys are nails and anyone who doesnt think so needs to be hot repeatedly with a copy of Codex Chaos.

I4 is all these guys need. The at least my poor scorpions would stand a chance.

Nurgling Chieftain
09-03-2007, 16:20
...do daemons being summoned have to be summoned before the summoning unit moves?Yes, summoning occurs before any movement.


I4 is all these guys need. The at least my poor scorpions would stand a chance.I4 is all they have. Methinks somebody's been cheatin' ya'... :D

(It's amazing how many times when you find somebody complaining that something is overpowered, you also find that they're playing it wrong.)

ashc
09-03-2007, 16:23
just to make sure we are singing from the same songsheet, their stats can be viewed officially here http://uk.games-workshop.com/chaosspacemarines/reference/

and indeed, seems someone may be screwing you over Carlos :D

Ash

Kjell
09-03-2007, 16:59
And why is what is a 6+ armour save in FB suddenly a 3+ armour save in 40K?

Because if you gave them a 6+ or 5+ Armour save, those would be wasted points. You can only ever take one kind of save in 40K, after all. A 4+ save, though... No idea why they didn't get that if they now had to have an Armour save to begin with.

But yeah, Bloodletters are rather mindboggling. :p

BloodiedSword
09-03-2007, 17:06
I'm another in favour of toning these down. It's not that they are majorly overpowered (IMO they are a little, but not brokenly so). It's that they are so much better than other daemons for no apparent reason at all.

Why should they of all daemons get a 3+ loincloth (LOINCLOTH dammit, not even a breastplate) save? Why should they of all daemons get power weapons, which a huge notch above what everyone else gets? Why should they of all daemons be Ld 10?

Basically you end up with a unit that feels like an Elites unit, plays like an Elites unit, and yet somehow is not only a Troops choice but is also (just to add insult to injury) listed in the same box as other Troops choices that actually vaguely look the part.

As for the OP's point about boringness - well, to be fair what do you expect them to do? You can make the same argument about Plaguebearers being boring because they are just overweight humanoids that lurch up to enemies to stab them, or Berserkers who just run really fast up to their enemies to choppify them.

jfrazell
09-03-2007, 17:47
Basically you end up with a unit that feels like an Elites unit, plays like an Elites unit, and yet somehow is not only a Troops choice

You forgot the cost where they "cost like an elite" as well. Again its not that they are overpowered, but that the other demons are underpowered for their cost.

-they have no shooting ability unlike marines
-they have no ATSKNF unlike marines
-they don't move any faster.
-kill the icon bearers and they go away, unlike marines.
-they are good against termies and marines but no worse than a decked out blood claw unit built for CC.
-they are pretty worthless against vehicles, unlike your average marine tac squad
-horde forces can take them down.

Xandros
09-03-2007, 18:02
Plaguebearers also seem rather bland, but that may just be me. However, unlike the rot-heads, Bloodletters do have a lot going for them.

I'd like to bring up Flamers and Horrors. These are remarkably different from the rest of the army, and in case of Flamers they are very useful. Horrors have a lot of character no doubt, and could well fill a role of meatshield bog-down unit if only they were cheaper. It'd be quite in their character to drag things down by weight of numbers.

Bloodletters I suppose, might be more bloodletter-like if they didn't have a save from armour they're not wearing - replaced with a sort of regeneration rule. The power weapons are there to stay, I think.

ReDavide
09-03-2007, 18:22
They are boring as hell.

I don't get it.

They're summoned daemons. They have half a full page of special rules that make them play in a way that is fundamentally different from any other non-summoned-daemon unit in the game. What more could you ask for?

Sure, they don't complement the rest of the forces in a cult army very well. That's part & parcel of playing any cult army. If you want access to squads with a wide variety of specialties, there's always Khornate Black Legion.

It's fine if the bloodletters don't suit your particular tastes or playstyle. But there's a difference between that and them being fundamentally flawed in some way.

Have you tried flesh hounds?

Kahadras
09-03-2007, 19:33
At the moment I think that Bloodletters are OK. The one bit I'm not happy about is the fact I don't usualy get a chance to shoot at them before they start hitting me in close combat. Dropping them down to a 4+ save would be OK IMO but they would need a price reduction as well.

Kahadras

Xandros
09-03-2007, 19:39
I don't get it.


I don't get it either.

Dude, that half a page of rules can be summed up as Power Weapons + Power Armour. They're pretty much like marines in power armour. Replace power armour with terminator armour and you're pretty close.

For other cults daemons do something unique, except for plaguebearers, which are rather astoundingly unspectacular. Bloodletters are only different in being a lot more useful. MEQ is an odious concept these days. The statline of 4's and a 3+ armour save gets rather tiring after a while. It's sort of alright for space marines, but when it's daemons in an army of marines, I would wish for something else. There isn't really any justification for their 3+ save. It's the "imaginary brass armour of Khorne".

Really, what gives? Why do you like bloodletters so much? They make a nice complement to your cult army I'm sure.

ashc
09-03-2007, 19:44
please please please tell me what *you* would like Bloodletters to do then? - If they are that awful to you.

Ash

MegaPope
09-03-2007, 20:22
I don't know what he wants 'Letters to do, but from my experience both using and fighting against Bloodletters, I'll say this:

If they have a problem, it's that as a unit they can both dish it out AND take it. Other than a lack of guns, they do not have a discernable weakness. And since when has a lack of guns been a weakness for a unit of assault specialists? Ask any Genestealer or slavering Possessed.

Now, dishing it out in CC is what Bloodletters are for. S5 and power weapons are reasonable in this regard: they don't have any ranged attacks, after all. Ld10 is also to be expected. These are militaristic daemons. War and bloodshed are powerful factors (especially on battlefields of all places!) so you'd expect them to hang around longer than other daemons when their prime motivating force is so strong all around them.

The problem with them comes from their uber-marine ability to resist damage. They're extremely forgiving, possibly too much so, although at the price they currently are, this is to be expected.

I'm not in favour of a regeneration rule. IMHO troops that won't die are the absolute nadir of a wargame - this is the main reason I don't like Necrons, phase out rule or not, and why I was disappointed to see a regenerative upgrade rear its ugly head again in the Nid codex. If anything makes a game boring and frustrating, its watching your opponent's troops get back up again time after time thanks to more than the whim of the dice, rather than any real skill.

Instead, to represent their regen abilities, and to tone them down slightly while not hamstringing them too much, I'd suggest the following:

Drop the points per model by 6 and replace the 3+ armour/5+ inv combo with a flat 4+ inv save. Keep the other attributes as they are.

Net result: you'll still have a powerful assault unit, and one that derives a lot of protection from the way the summoning rules work (i.e being able to avoid attrition by ranged firepower thanks to not being there until they are needed).
4+ Inv save and T4 still makes them pretty resilient, but a 50% save is a damn sight less reliable than 3 in 6, even if it does make them rather better in combat against troops reliant on PWs/rending. This is reasonable. They should still give Genestealers and such a run for their money.

Shooting is a different matter. Using most low-AP heavy weapons on them will be rather less worth the effort, but to balance that, they become more vulnerable to massed fire from small arms. Which leaves your real big hitters free to be blasting tanks and Marines, which is what you want them to be doing, right?

In effect, the 'Letters would become more of the 'glass hammer' unit they probably should be. After all, as far as Khorne is concerned, they're expendable - all true daemons are, in their patron's eyes! If you want staying power in combat, go for Zerkers or Possessed, but if you want a huge mess in a hurry, and don't really care about casualties, 'Letters are your choice.

As a side effect, this amendment would also solve most of the more commonly encountered problems with Grey Knights - all lesser daemons would now have to run scared from those nasty (and expensive) Psycannons and Incinerators!

Hopefully, this would make players think more about how and where they'll commit their 'Letters, instead of blindly relying on them to come through everything unscathed (something I've been guilty of on many occasions!)

Lord Balian
09-03-2007, 20:41
Ahem.

Wraithguard are the most expensive infantry Troops choice in the game.

But, more to the point, I think that the Bloodletters are fine, just that the Horrors/Flamers and Plaguebearers need to be tuned up.

Ahem, they are actually Elites, that can be made troops if taken the right way. :)

I see the point that in a WE army the letters might not be so bad @zz in comparison with an army that's all CC. But making them better is silly since they are the best demon there is. The only one with a 3+ save, and I think the highest save including khorne hounds.

Not really sure what more someone would want from them. You have what most armies can't get at all, or have to take as an Elite, in your troops choices. Basically a marine with S5, with power weapons, 2 attack, and invuln save. With a little luck then are summoned in and charge your enemy before getting shot at for even one round. Come on, how many armies have something that can do that? And you want more?

ReDavide
09-03-2007, 21:10
Dude, that half a page of rules can be summed up as Power Weapons + Power Armour. They're pretty much like marines in power armour. Replace power armour with terminator armour and you're pretty close.

I was referring to the summoning & instability rules in the front of the codex...

You *do* summon your bloodletters, right? If not, I could see how the marines-with-power-weapons analogy might hold up.

Captain Stuart
09-03-2007, 21:55
So Bloodletters are boring? IMHO the whole WE army is pretty darn boring.

If you want to tone bloodletters down, I'd move them to the fast attack or elite slot. I'm not sure I want to rev up other daemons. After all, you want to have to take CSM as troops for something other than just an icon. The OP is correct inasmuch as the primary tactical differences between the 'letters and berzerkers is in their deployment. Once they are on the board, they act pretty much like a tough berzerker squad - run into HTH as fast as possible.

Frankly, I think the boredom factor is just one of the things a WE player must accept. Bloodletters in another CSM list can allow the player to specialize in some non-HTH aspect of the game, but in the WE list, that aspect is in short supply.

izandral
10-03-2007, 00:04
just read through the posts and what i can say is they absolutely must be toned down , they cost a few point more than a decent genestealer but are so much better , 3+/5+ save , no need to slug it on foot to get in hth , just get summoned so you get a full squad in CC , POWER WEAPONS one and all !!!! , WS 5 , str 5

and since you can buy a special icon for a mere 20 pts you don't even need to worry about reserve rolls !!!

these things should cost 30 more points each

Nurgling Chieftain
10-03-2007, 00:08
Pfff, basic genestealers will kick the crap out of them in a point-for-point matchup.

Platuan4th
10-03-2007, 04:03
Ahem, they are actually Elites, that can be made troops if taken the right way. :)


Just like Wraithguard, huh. ;)

Anyway, if 'Letters are so boring don't use them. It's a matter of personal taste, as other WE players I've met swear by 'Letters and would rather take them over 'Zerkers any day(brought in by Bikers or Termies). Most of that stems from the fact that 'Letters are just a little less unpredictable. Yes, they may or may not show up when they're needed, but they won't jump their ride first turn. However, I think that may be exactly the thing you have a problem with(the interchangeability of 'Letters and 'Zerkers), in which case, I suggest Flesh Hounds and ignoring the 'Letters all together if you don't like them.

Xandros
10-03-2007, 07:35
I'm beginning to see that my whole beef with bloodletters is their armour save. They don't have that in Fantasy, they never had it in previous codices. It's NOT represented on the model. In fact, the designers appear to have pretty much pulled that rule out of their ass.

Designer1: "Hey, let's make Bloodletters more like the Bloodthirster, brass armour and all."
Designer2: "Dude, that's... awesome."
Designer1: "I know! Who wants to touch me?"

mpears
10-03-2007, 07:53
i think it would be far better to have all deamons in line with the deamonhunters special rules, as all the weapons unique to that codex cost about ** points each and are AP4.

Grimtuff
11-03-2007, 11:36
I'm beginning to see that my whole beef with bloodletters is their armour save. They don't have that in Fantasy, they never had it in previous codices. It's NOT represented on the model. In fact, the designers appear to have pretty much pulled that rule out of their ass.


Yup, Daemonhunters: good at our job against everything. Except Khorne ;)

Cheitan Shadowless
11-03-2007, 12:59
This is strictly my opinion, so keep that in mind:
<SNIP> - the dazzling radiance of awesome truth - <SNIP>
Poisonpen...will you marry me?

Nostro
11-03-2007, 13:45
As a side effect, this amendment would also solve most of the more commonly encountered problems with Grey Knights - all lesser daemons would now have to run scared from those nasty (and expensive) Psycannons and Incinerators!

I singled this out but most of MegaPope's post is exactly my opinion.

Make them 4+inv and point them accordingly. Toned down but not nerfed. Resilient but no more lauging at a psycanon or massed fire.

hivefleetcarrion
11-03-2007, 14:21
make the save 4/5+ and im happy

they are tough, but they shouldnt be uber tough like they are now

changing the armor save puts them in line with other deamons, and they no longer have marine(or better) statlines that are summoned.