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Caern
08-03-2007, 23:54
Today I had a disagreement about the proper way to handle fleeing troops and overrun movements with a player from another location. My group plays it one way, their group plays it another way. I'd like to find out which is truly correct.

Here is the situation. Player A has a unit, which has been defeated by Player B's unit. Player B does not state any intention to restrain pursuit. Player A rolls a 7 for Flee, and Player B rolls a 12. Obviously, the unit is caught and will be killed. But does the unit for Player B still move 12"?

My thinking has been no with 7th edition, as the rulebook says that a fleeing unit is literally destroyed on the spot, saying under the section on page 42 under Remove Fleeing Units Caught "If a victorious unit's pursuit roll is equal to or greater than the flee roll scored by fleeing enemy units, the fleeing units are completely destroyed where they stand. All the troops are cut down as they turn to run, or are scattered beyond hope of regrouping."

To me, this means that the units are simply killed where they stand. No fleeing models are moved (The move surviving fleeing troops step would follow *after* this step), and thus, no models are moved to pursue after them. Is this correct, or am I wrong?

Lastly, because Unit B has wiped out all it's enemies with their destruction in their failed attempt to flee, does this then qualify it to make an Overrun move? I have always thought so, but we also disagree on this point.

Your help is appreciated.

edit: Please demonstrate why I am wrong/right with references to the rules rather than simple statements.

Jonke
09-03-2007, 00:01
You are wrong. If the enemy unit breaks the pursuing unit moves the distance rolled, if you rolled higher the breaking unit is destroyed. The 'on the spot' reference means you kill them even if another unit blocks your pursuit move etc.

Over-run only happens when you wipe out the unit in combat i.e. killing them dead with attacks.

Caern
09-03-2007, 01:23
Had it all explained to me in detail (and was kindly introduced to the FAQ) by Direct Services Canada. Problem solved!

jimmysnz
09-03-2007, 01:32
Today I had a disagreement about the proper way to handle fleeing troops and overrun movements with a player from another location. My group plays it one way, their group plays it another way. I'd like to find out which is truly correct.

Here is the situation. Player A has a unit, which has been defeated by Player B's unit. Player B does not state any intention to restrain pursuit. Player A rolls a 7 for Flee, and Player B rolls a 12. Obviously, the unit is caught and will be killed. But does the unit for Player B still move 12"?

My thinking has been no with 7th edition, as the rulebook says that a fleeing unit is literally destroyed on the spot, saying under the section on page 42 under Remove Fleeing Units Caught "If a victorious unit's pursuit roll is equal to or greater than the flee roll scored by fleeing enemy units, the fleeing units are completely destroyed where they stand. All the troops are cut down as they turn to run, or are scattered beyond hope of regrouping."

To me, this means that the units are simply killed where they stand. No fleeing models are moved (The move surviving fleeing troops step would follow *after* this step), and thus, no models are moved to pursue after them. Is this correct, or am I wrong?

Lastly, because Unit B has wiped out all it's enemies with their destruction in their failed attempt to flee, does this then qualify it to make an Overrun move? I have always thought so, but we also disagree on this point.

Your help is appreciated.

edit: Please demonstrate why I am wrong/right with references to the rules rather than simple statements.

You have to understand the difference between overrun and pursuit. You can only overrun on the first round of a combat if you charged and completely wipe out the opposing units. Then you get your 2D6, or 3D6 movement forwards. Any other time where the opposing unit fails its leadership test and breaks and runs from the fight you can pursue.

The destroyed where they stand rule means even if your unit couldn't pursue the whole distance, eg another enemy unit in the way, the unit that fled is still destroyed if you rolled more than them.

So in game terms you roll your flee and pursuit rolls, if the fleeing unit rolls higher then move that distance directly away from the highest unit strength enemy unit and the rest should be moved so that they are the difference of the dice roll away from the fleeing unit.

Eg, Night goblin unit flees from Knights, but run a lucky 11, and the knights only get a 9, then they get away and the knights sit 2" behind the doomed goblins!

Now, if they rolled and 8 and the Knights rolled an 9, then the goblins are removed from the table and the knights move their full pursuit move of 9" directly forwards.

Hope this helps.:cool:

Halflingstew
09-03-2007, 01:45
Do you have to be the charger to qualify for the overrun? I thought it was just wiping out the enemy in the first round. Example - my Squig Hoppers bounce into some Hammerers. Squigs go squish (go figure...). I've always thought the Dwarves would get the overrun.

Jonke
09-03-2007, 01:46
Do you have to be the charger to qualify for the overrun? I thought it was just wiping out the enemy in the first round. Example - my Squig Hoppers bounce into some Hammerers. Squigs go squish (go figure...). I've always thought the Dwarves would get the overrun.

Correct!

Peace!

jimmysnz
09-03-2007, 02:01
Do you have to be the charger to qualify for the overrun? I thought it was just wiping out the enemy in the first round. Example - my Squig Hoppers bounce into some Hammerers. Squigs go squish (go figure...). I've always thought the Dwarves would get the overrun.

I'm 99% sure that in 6th it was that way, but now you must also have charged that turn to get to overrun. I'll have to check the BRB now, you have me worried!

explorator
09-03-2007, 03:12
I'm 99% sure that in 6th it was that way, but now you must also have charged that turn to get to overrun. I'll have to check the BRB now, you have me worried!

You are correct jimmysnz. In 7th ed. the overrun rule reads
BRB pg. 43

If a unit charges into combat and, by the end of that turn's combat phase all its enemies have been wiped out, the unit may make a pursuit move, even with nobody left to persue.

This is a change from how overrun worked in 6th ed. and was brought to my attention in another thread.

Jonke
09-03-2007, 03:13
I stand corrected.

jimmysnz
09-03-2007, 04:37
I stand corrected.

Cheers mate, always happy to do some correcting! :confused:

Jonke
09-03-2007, 04:48
Everything would be so much easier if you could just mind wipe yourself and forget 6th ed even existed before trying to learn the 7th ed rules.

jimmysnz
09-03-2007, 04:54
The hard part is that most of the changes are significant, and those that aren't are just one added or removed sentence, that can make all the difference.

mattjgilbert
09-03-2007, 08:26
It's a common thing as players move between versions. In 40K, the number of people who played "4th Edition" who were throwing 3rd Ed rules into the mix was pretty high for about the first year. Luckly for me, I've skipped a few editions of WFB (last played in 4th) so I had to read the BRB in depth as a good deal had changed.

As a general rule, when a new edition comes out, I try to approach reading and comprehending the rules from the point of view of someone who has never played any kind of game system before, let alone a previous version of said rules. If only the books were written with that mentalilty.... :)

T10
09-03-2007, 08:36
To me, this means that the units are simply killed where they stand. No fleeing models are moved (The move surviving fleeing troops step would follow *after* this step), and thus, no models are moved to pursue after them. Is this correct, or am I wrong?
(...)
edit: Please demonstrate why I am wrong/right with references to the rules rather than simple statements.

Please read up on the rules for close combat.

You seem to have made a (minor) procedural mistake in not declaring intent to pursue before the rolling the flee move.

Relevant procedure is as follows:


Losing unit fails break test.
Victorious unit declares intent to pursue. If he wishes to restrain he must make the appropriate test. If this test is failed the unit will pursue.
Roll movement for fleeing unit.
Roll movement for pursuing unit. If the units does not pursue it does not roll!
Compare rolls. If the fleeing unit rolls higher then both units are moved as appropriate. Otherwise the fleeing unit is destroyed immediately (instead of moving) and the pursuing unit is moved as appropriate.


-T10

DeathlessDraich
09-03-2007, 08:43
Sorry to be pedantic but since T10 has mentioned the precise procedure, can I add:
2) Victorious unit declares intent to pursue unless it is Frenzied or has Hatred in which case it must pursue or overrun.

eldrak
09-03-2007, 09:58
Uhh, I read it as:


Do you have to be the charger to qualify for the overrun? ...yadayada...


Correct!
So in my eyes you were right too.

Festus
09-03-2007, 11:03
Hi

A unit does not have to declare is intent to pursue. This is the default option: A unit pursues a broken enemy.

A unit only ever has to declare the intent *not to pursue*, and has to roll the Ld test accordingly if allowed to do so (or can stay put without a roll in certain cases - defended obstacle being one of those).

If you don't declare your intent not to pursue, you will pursue.

Festus

T10
09-03-2007, 12:15
Bah. Details. :)

Anyways: Ether the unit pursues or it does not. If it pursues it may be able to destroy the enemy but must also move. If it does not then it cannot destroy the enemy.

-T10