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Greyfire
10-03-2007, 05:12
I apologize if this has been asked and answered before with this new edition, and I did just spend the past hour searching through the rules forum to try to avoid bugging you all, but I couldn't find an answer to this question. I knew the answer to the question with previous editions from the FAQs but with this newer edition I want to make sure I get it right.

Tomorrow (well, in about 12 hours anyway) I'll be playing with the empire's fast cavalry for the first time. As long as I've had the army I just never got around to buying the models until now. So with that as my background and excuse for bothering you all here's the question:

Fast Cavalry rules on page 70: "fast cavalry models can fire all round, regardless of the direction in which the models are facing (this, of course, does not allow them to shoot through friendly models)."

So it's clear the pistoliers can't shoot through my friendly spearmen. Rather nice of them, I wouldn't want that to happen. But do the pistoliers block their own line of sight? Would all five of them be able to shoot at something that had landed on their flanks?

The fast cav section is missing the explicit language that's in the skirmisher section on a unit blocking itself, so I think the answer is "yes, they do block their own LOS and those pistoliers had better run somewhere else and shoot fast". That's the answer in the previous edition I think, but I may have misunderstood things there too. Like I said tho' I just want to play it correctly tomorrow (today).

Many thanks for the assistance! I do appreciate it!

-=- Greyfire

DarthBinky
10-03-2007, 06:46
But do the pistoliers block their own line of sight?

Yes, they do. A friendly model is a friendly model, whether it's in the same unit or another.

But it's pretty easy to avoid those sorts of blind spots, especially if you're using Pistoliers rather than Outriders.

Greyfire
10-03-2007, 07:23
Thanks for the fast response. That answer makes sense to me but sometimes the GW rules don't make sense to me. Like you said, I'll just have to be careful where I use them. Should be fun to learn a new unit's strength/weakness again. Heck, cheaper than starting a new army. :)

-=- Greyfire

Tutore
10-03-2007, 08:14
They canīt fire through fellow pistoliers, even those of the same unit. The pistolier may fire everywhere but against enemies he canīt see because a friendly pistolier/spearmen/whatever blocks view.

Atrahasis
10-03-2007, 14:09
Unless the target in the flank is less than 50mm wide its very likely that all would be able to shoot anyway - as long as you can draw a straight line from any point on a fast-cavalry model's base to the base of the target you can shoot, no matter how tight the angle.

Tutore
10-03-2007, 20:32
I had a single character or something like that in mind, was I right?

T10
10-03-2007, 23:51
Ok, 10 Outriders are arranged 5 x 2 on a hill. A single Troll is 10" away at the middle of the unit's left flank.

How many Outriders can shoot at the Troll?

I'd say four, the idea being that firing in tihs direction requires us to treat files as ranks.

-T10

Krusk
11-03-2007, 00:04
You can reform them for free of course, which helps, but I would agree, it does say that they can't shoot though friendlies. It's not too hard with fast cavalry to set up situations where you can shoot with everything in a unit, so it would be too much to let them shoot through each other.

Greyfire
11-03-2007, 05:42
How many Outriders can shoot at the Troll?

T10, I'd think it would just be two - the two that can trace LOS from their flank. But that's just based on a gut feeling that shooting in two ranks on a hill is similar to spearmen fighting in ranks. My spearmen in the flanks don't get the extra hits from ranks beside them, so I wouldn't think I'd be able to send that second rank of two outriders against the troll.

But that's just a gut feeling. I can't find any rule to support that feeling and the outriders do have a 360 LOS which is very different than the spearmen attacks - so you'd make a better case for saying that you could shoot with four than I could for two. I'd have no problem with you sending four shots at that troll on my table.

And after fielding outriders myself today in four games, I'd probably let you have more than those four shots. :( Not a good day for the Empire, I fear.

-=- Greyfire

Thinking about it some more, and thinking that T10 is correct, now I have a question. Replace that troll with a giant or other large target, and put the outriders on the ground. Would their 360 LOS allow them to shoot "over" their friends at the large target that they should all be able to see now? The previous edition had the rule that being a large target allowed ranks that would otherwise be blocked to still shoot (p 59 of 6th ed book). I can't find that wording in the newer 7th ed book. I guess we can't do this now? Or am I just missing the page? I hadn't realized that my ranked shooters had lost the ability to ping that giant standing in front of them with more than one rank. Probably went on a vacation with the "dividing shots" rule.

Greyfire
11-03-2007, 05:45
I had a single character or something like that in mind, was I right?

For my question, yes, that's what I was wondering about - kind of the worse case scenario for shooting, a single figure or a small unit sitting right there in my flank.

-=- Greyfire

Axel
11-03-2007, 23:04
I could be wrong, but since you move before shooting, and can make free reforms with fast cavalry, how can this become a problem?

Atrahasis
11-03-2007, 23:29
Well, Outriders are move-or-shoot so even with free reforms they can't redeploy and shoot.

jimmysnz
12-03-2007, 00:35
Thinking about it some more, and thinking that T10 is correct, now I have a question. Replace that troll with a giant or other large target, and put the outriders on the ground. Would their 360 LOS allow them to shoot "over" their friends at the large target that they should all be able to see now? The previous edition had the rule that being a large target allowed ranks that would otherwise be blocked to still shoot (p 59 of 6th ed book). I can't find that wording in the newer 7th ed book. I guess we can't do this now? Or am I just missing the page? I hadn't realized that my ranked shooters had lost the ability to ping that giant standing in front of them with more than one rank. Probably went on a vacation with the "dividing shots" rule.

I'm pretty sure they could all shoot at a Large target or a target on a hill. The rules of shooting have been changed so that anyone can see a large target unless its being blocked by another large target/scenery or something else that is very blockable.

Crazy Harborc
12-03-2007, 00:54
I have two units of 8 each of pistoliers and outriders up and done. Based on 5battles using both versions.......I pick the pistoliers as the better choice to use. It would be nice if the pistoliers were BS4 with NO penalities, but..... Still at only one -1 to hit (thanks to multiple shots being at -1).

I STILL would like that confirmed by an erratta comment from GW. IMHO, the details/statements about what is/is not multiple shooting is a very grey area.

Greyfire
12-03-2007, 14:43
I'm pretty sure they could all shoot at a Large target or a target on a hill. The rules of shooting have been changed so that anyone can see a large target unless its being blocked by another large target/scenery or something else that is very blockable.

Can you point me to that section of the rules, please? I'm not saying it's not there, but I remember things better when I can read them (and kind of see the page in my mind really).

Thanks!

-=- Steve

Greyfire
12-03-2007, 14:49
I have two units of 8 each of pistoliers and outriders up and done. Based on 5battles using both versions.......I pick the pistoliers as the better choice to use.


See as how my outriders took down only one ogre butcher character running around on his own and one minataur from a unit of three before being butchered, and being mostly ineffective for the four games I played this weekend, I tend to agree.

But I'm gonna blame it on myself for right now. I still need to play them a few more times before I rip the arms off and turn them into pistoliers. :)

But they do look so cool! But then again, being able to hurt a unit of chaos knights would have been nice this weekend too. Ah... hindsight. Yes, I missed my cannon. :(

-=- Steve

Festus
12-03-2007, 15:11
Hi

pointer for Greyfire:

p.9, left column (under Line of sight), and p.26, left column (in the shooting rules, not surprisingly) :D

Festus

Greyfire
13-03-2007, 00:44
p.9, left column (under Line of sight), and p.26, left column (in the shooting rules, not surprisingly) :D

Festus, thanks! I looked all over the shooting section and just couldn't see it. Probably just read "interposing models" and thought unit A block unit B on a level ground or something. Cleared up for me now!

-=- Greyfire