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lazarus
25-07-2005, 18:59
This one never occured to me until recently at a small local tourney.......

The tourney was attended by some "serious" tourney players and they all had these special charge markers which were numbered 1,2,3 etc.....

At first I thought it was for short term memory loss.......but then I played one of them and this scenario unfolds........

3 units advance on me 2x Marauder horsemen in line abbout 3" apart with a unit of Chaos knights behind the gap. I thought he was being cautious and was protecting them but no, in his turn he declares his charges

Charge 1 aganst your Reavers with these Marauders - right on his flank only just in arc but made sense i thought

Charge 2 these Marauders on that Bolt thrower - hmm? no way he can make that I mean it's at least 20" without a wheel

Charge 3 Chosen into your Swordmasters!! right in front about 8" away........

Wait I said you can't make it through that gap but he says as charge 1 and 2 have moved there is no gap for charge 3 - so by splitting his line up on charges he was always going to fail he got the charge he was after.

I was always under the impression all charges go together to avoid this kind of thing but was I wrong? :wtf:

Geetarman
25-07-2005, 19:19
i think that technically its legal but i would really be pissed if someone pulled that on me...

Gman

g0ddy
25-07-2005, 19:38
The guy, as far as I understand it is correct in doing them one at a time for EXACTLY this purpose - however, declaring a charge that you know is obviously going to fail for the sole purpose of getting out of the way of another unit is rather.. unscruplious. Its also very situational and to pull off in a reasonable fashion would require a rather specific arrangement of units.

I know people who play like this, sometimes I do - but I would never do something like that (declare a 'fake' charge simply to get out of the way).

- g0ddy

Brother Frog
25-07-2005, 19:44
Locally, it is called "Daving the rules", named after a.....less than impressive guy called Dave.

It is playing to the exact wording of the rules, knowing that your actions are against the spirit of the game. Also, Daving involves bending the rules as far as you can without quite breaking them.

Griefbringer
25-07-2005, 22:27
Now, this is probably one of those times when that hardback rulebook would have been handy...

Brother Frog
25-07-2005, 22:33
Now, this is probably one of those times when that hardback rulebook would have been handy...

...especially if you were inserting it sideways! :eek:

Griefbringer
25-07-2005, 22:44
...especially if you were inserting it sideways! :eek:

In that case, just make sure it is not your own.

Also, a steam tank or giant should work well, as long as they are all metal (now that would be a reason enough to oppose a plastic steam tank, it just would not hurt enough when re-located to the place it belongs to...) :evilgrin:

Snoozer
26-07-2005, 10:09
So its legal but against the spirit of the rules??

What about if a saurus unit is slightly screened by a skink unit (so that they could not make a charge on their own because the skinks are in the way), could I make a charge with the Saurus if I first charge with the skinks into another unit, like a detachment??

I have never done this, because I have never though about it, but would that be against the spirit of the rules, or would you allow it??

:D

Geetarman
26-07-2005, 11:17
Again yes it would be legal (as long as the saurus can see the main unit and the skinks can see the detachment) but may not make you many friends.

But this is less of a 'Daving' situation in my books because the skinks are at least making a valid charge (assuming you mean they are actually intended to come into contact with the detacment and are not 20 inches away), pikcing a charge which will obviously fail is not good sportsmanship in my books..

Gman

ironduke
26-07-2005, 11:32
It is legal but against the spirit of the rules and the game.
Unfortunately i am ashamed to say that in a similiar scenario i did somethin similiar.
Khorne Choen Knights near woods with duellists poking out if i don't declare a charge then i will have to charge his duellists into the wood. :(
So i spy in the distance his cannon and declare a charge on it. Its failed but does not lead my knights into a tricky situation.

KillbotFactory
26-07-2005, 12:51
Woah, hold on people, this guy isn't just a rotten sport but he is cheating big time. As for the order of declaring and moving charges he is right. Assuming all his charges were within range then he would be playing exactly by the rules as you move charges in the order they are declared.

However, if a charge appears to be obviously that it is going to fail then you are not allowed to declare it. I don't have a rulebook on me so I can't give a direct qoute, but it is a rule in the appendix. A much bigger explotaition of not using this rule is with an undead army declaring charges and making every unit take a fear test every turn. (Remember this is illegal) I am sure somebody will come along with the qoute soon, if not when I get home I will give it.

Archaon
26-07-2005, 15:11
I too remember this paragraph and you are correct.

However it is very shaky as what amounts to an "obvious" failed charge.. who decides that and at which point is it obvious that a charge fails? This special situation is a Marauder Horseman unit charging a target at least 20" away.. he has a 16" charge range and he can simply say that he thought it would be enough and if he really is an ass even smile in your face as he says it.

You can't disprove him and so he is on legal grounds. In this case i would get the tournament refs to give it a look or if it was a friendly game try to talk to him about his unsporting game or simply just pack up and leave (and tell everyone that he's a rulesbending gamer).

MisterHeavy
26-07-2005, 15:33
Yeah, I think the only unsporting thing he did was the failed charge declaration. Most people who have been playing fantasy for more than a year have very little trouble telling the difference between 16 and 20 inches.

Charges do go off in order, and you can be either helped or hindered by this rule.

GranFarfar
26-07-2005, 15:33
As far as I am conserned, this is not legal. I have always been under the impression that charges has too be possible by the start of the phase, and this is indeed how we play here.
But perheps we have been wrong all the time? Well, wonīt change the way we play I guess. This is how we want it to be.

Anyhow, if it now is legal after all, then it feels more like a loophole than an acutall rule. I would indeed follow one or many of the suggestions mentioned earlier(that one with the steam-tank havnīt struck me before. Perheps I should change to Empire)

Eldanar
26-07-2005, 15:39
These types of situations are the one's where I really have a problem with WHFB's game mechanics.

I too think there is something in the rules about only being able to declare charges against units which have a realistic chance of occurring.

Otherwise, you could have someone with a flying model which causes terror who wants to move their model 20" in a general direction declare a charge instead against an enemy unit somewhere along the flight path but beyond the 20" away (lets say 30"), and make the recipient unit take a terror test from being charged by a terror causing unit. This also would be beyond the range of any terror test in the subsequent player's turn.

I rank this even in front of the "unit twist" in order to redirect enemy charging units in a different direction in order to get easy flank charges from your own supporting units in subsequent turns. Some of WHFB's game mechanics are simply clunky.

GranFarfar
26-07-2005, 15:44
Well, donīt think that would be a problemo, since you take Fear and Terror tests after you have confirmed that the charge is within range.

Eldanar
26-07-2005, 15:58
I thought you took it as soon as the charge was declared...but you could be correct (I'm a little rusty on my Fantasy rules...and 4 editions of the game plus WAB's kind of run together in my head some times).

enyoss
26-07-2005, 16:10
as far as i know this has been the rule for a long time (the order in which a player can move chargers that is). it does say something in the rules however about having to be reasonably sure that any charges you declare are in range. how to enforce this though is beyond me! in my gaming group we have been known to pass house rules along the lines that if a charge is equal to or over 25% of the charge distance out then the unit stays put... no failed charge move, nothing. although it's not very realistic it's enough of a deterrent to never happen. although, introducing house rules like that is a slippery, slippery slope :)

cheers,

enyoss

Fredrik
26-07-2005, 16:31
I agree this move is against the rules as it is so obviously an attempt to cheat.
Firstly i would tell him nicly that itīs an incorrect charge deceration and let him get a chance to withrdaw any others if he so wishes. If he still insists i will tell him a bit harsher finally taking help from tourney refs or bystanders. In this case no one would take his line since it is an obvious offence.
In worst case senario you can still claim that the spirit of the game is a rule ( witch it is ( and thus he can not declare an obvious faild charge just to gain an edge ).

lazarus
26-07-2005, 16:55
Cheers guys................I'll watch for that one in the future, still I couldn't bring myself to do it.

Flame
26-07-2005, 17:43
( and thus he can not declare an obvious faild charge just to gain an edge ).

And there in lies the problem. What may be 'obvious' to you, may not be that 'obvious' to others.

PelsBoble
26-07-2005, 21:54
Well if it at least may have a chance of reaching i wouldnt see a problem with this. But if hes trying to charge a bolt thrower 24 inches away with his warhounds it would obviously be way out. But i have myself missed charges by 3-4 inches so its not always that easy to determine range when you are in a tight situation etc. ;)

Crazy Harborc
26-07-2005, 23:42
I'd talk it over when it happened or at the end of the game while cleaning up. That kind of behavior is no better than out and out cheating.

If an opponent has a selection of things that he does, that are legal(?).....talk it over with other opponents. Store employees/managers should know what kind of player/person the person it.

I've learned the hard way that far too many of this kind of player/person are cheats at more than just games. I try to avoid them in store tablegames. They do not get invited to game at my place.

Markconz
27-07-2005, 01:21
Geez can't they just make the rules clearer?!

Can't make a charge at a target that is 'obviously' not in range. What a mess.

My preference in this situation is that what your oponent did is ok. It's a way of getting a unit out of the way for a charge - by having it choose a target to attack. It does its best to charge/advance on this unit immediately and gets out of the way of the charging unit. Not perfect but more perfect than the alternative which is debates about what is 'obvious'. As the charge/movment system is highly abstracted anyway it is not that awful... just that a few interactions will be a bit weird?

A much better situation would be to just allow premeasuring like many other GW games now do. How many charges in real warfare 'failed' because they are out of range by 10 paces?

Snoozer
27-07-2005, 08:25
Couldn't this be fixed with a house rule that failed charges are moved after succesful charges this way you can't do obviosly failing charges to get the unit out of the way.

Of course this would only affect friendly games and not tournaments etc.

:D

Tarax
27-07-2005, 09:51
You declare charges in a certain order and move chargers in that same order.

That's how the rules are.

If a unit is unable to charge at the Declare Charges-subphase, than in can not charge, not even if another unit is moved out of the way.

Imagine the following situations:

-A fleeing unit is in front of the chargers and you hope/guess the will continue to flee so you have a clear route on your target.

-A fleeing unit suddenly appears in front of your charging unit, blocking to route to your target.

-You fail your fear test and therefore remain stationary, blocking the route of other charging units behind you.

All situations where you route may become blocked or unblocked. Just what would you do? (no answers required, just rethorical questions)

Atrahasis
27-07-2005, 10:02
If a unit is unable to charge at the Declare Charges-subphase, than in can not charge, not even if another unit is moved out of the way.

Not so. All that is required for a Charge declaration is LOS and a reasonable expectation of completing the charge. If we can reasonably expect the unit that blocks the charge to have moved by the time we come to charge (ie it is charging as well) then we have a reasonable expectation that the charge can be completed.

AKBandito
27-07-2005, 10:36
I cant believe so many of you have a problem with this, its in the rules.
A unit can declare a charge if it can see the unit, its your choice for which order
you move your chargers...
I personally wouldn't dislike someone for doing it, around my area its the norm,
no one gives it a second thought.
another example
khorne knights screened by warhounds, move warhound charge first, then knights.
the only problem with your scenario is the guy declaring a charge
on a unit that it obviously will fail on just to move the unit out of the way.
which u cannot do.
I think its in the appendix, it was brought in to stop tards from declaring charges
just to get fear tests.

Geetarman
27-07-2005, 11:35
This is the problem, under normal situations declaring several charges and then moving some units so other screened units can get their charge in is not a problem unless your declaring a charge that you know will fail just to move them out the way as there is no rule in the BRB at present to state that declaring charges that will obviously fail.

Let me repeat this so were clear on the problem, there is currently no rule or statement in the BRB that forbids declaring a charge that will obviously fail just to move units out the way.

Personally if an opponent did this to me I would pack up and leave as this is taking rule bending to the extreme.

Gman

Atrahasis
27-07-2005, 11:41
Let me repeat this so were clear on the problem, there is currently no rule or statement in the BRB that forbids declaring a charge that will obviously fail just to move units out the way.

Page 265 disagrees with you.

Geetarman
27-07-2005, 13:33
Page 265 disagrees with you.
Doh, am sure I couldn't find anything, I will re-read that when I get in, if I have just been proved wrong then my bad, thnx :)

Gman

Da Imp
03-08-2005, 08:27
I have always believed that the rule regarding charges is that if you can't physically make a charge you can't declare it. So even though a unit can see the enemy, but it's path is blocked by another friendly unit, you can't declare a charge on the enemy unit - because it would have to wheel more than once to actually get into contact. Maybe this is just the way we have always played it but it makes sense to me.

T10
03-08-2005, 09:28
as far as i know this has been the rule for a long time (the order in which a player can move chargers that is). it does say something in the rules however about having to be reasonably sure that any charges you declare are in range. how to enforce this though is beyond me! in my gaming group we have been known to pass house rules along the lines that if a charge is equal to or over 25% of the charge distance out then the unit stays put... no failed charge move, nothing. although it's not very realistic it's enough of a deterrent to never happen. although, introducing house rules like that is a slippery, slippery slope :)

cheers,

enyoss

Such a house-rule seems very reasonable to me. It serves to enforce the rule of "reasonable" charge declarations without introducing other disruptive elements.

-T10

T10
03-08-2005, 09:39
Imagine the following situations:

-A fleeing unit is in front of the chargers and you hope/guess the will continue to flee so you have a clear route on your target.



When this situation came up recently, we examined the situation and concluded that it would be unreasonable to declare a charge if movement was blocked by a fleeing friendly unit.

In general, it is more reasonable to expect (hope for) a beneficial/positive result than detrimental/negative result.

Rallying a fleeing unit would seem more immediately beneficial than getting the charge in, from the models' point of view.

-T10

Yanos
03-08-2005, 09:42
Well, donīt think that would be a problemo, since you take Fear and Terror tests after you have confirmed that the charge is within range.

Spot on; while I can't link to the Rulebook from here, this (http://uk.games-workshop.com/chronicles/faq/assets/warhammer-faq.pdf) link to the Q&A covers the same problem in relation to Standing & Shooting, under the Psychology section. Only take the Psychology test if the charginf unit is in range.

Festus
03-08-2005, 10:22
Hi

The rules themselves are clear:

To declare a charge, you have to be able to see your intended target (i.e. have LoS) and be within charge reach.

You may not declare a charge that will obviously fail because of range.

You may indeed declare a charge that is not possible at the time of the charge declarations but which will become possible afterwards (such as the fleeing unit blocking the path or if another unit that charges itself is in the way).

Charges are then done in declaration order (eliminating the block of the more advanced charging unit) and after any compulsory movement has been done (so that the fleeing unit can get out of the way).

So you can indeed charge like the guy mentioned in the first post did.

The pint is that his declared charge obviously was bound to fail and thus illegal to declare in the first place. But if you agreed that the unit might be able to make the charge, he played it right. But by the description it seems that he just used an obviously failed charge to get the Marauders out of the way to free the Chosen, which is simply cheating.

Greetings
Festus

gortexgunnerson
04-08-2005, 09:18
It is legal but against the spirit of the rules and the game.
Unfortunately i am ashamed to say that in a similiar scenario i did somethin similiar.
Khorne Choen Knights near woods with duellists poking out if i don't declare a charge then i will have to charge his duellists into the wood. :(
So i spy in the distance his cannon and declare a charge on it. Its failed but does not lead my knights into a tricky situation.

This is actually illegal as frenzy units cannot declare charge. But instead measure all units in range and charge arch and then MUST charge one, however you have the choice of which.

Festus
04-08-2005, 10:01
Hi

This is actually illegal as frenzy units cannot declare charge. But instead measure all units in range and charge arch and then MUST charge one, however you have the choice of which.
Nonsense:
A frenzied unit has the option to declare a charge as normal, nothing to stop them doing it.

If OTOH a frenzied unit has NOT declared a charge, you measure to see if there are any enemies in charge range and if so, the frenzied unit has to charge one of them.

This obviously means that a frenzied unit will rarely declare a formal charge, as it is much better first to measure the different ranges to make sure that you arrive at the desired target and not sufffer a failed charge.

Greetings
Festus

WhiteStar
04-08-2005, 10:26
Isn't there a Q&A determining if charging a unit that is obviously out of range is allowed or not? Why not write the roolzboyz and ask?

Baindread
04-08-2005, 11:51
I am pretty sure that a unit cannot declare a charge unless he has a clear path to his target, meaning that any intervening friendly units render that unit as unable to charge, wether or not the unit in front charges or not.

enyoss
04-08-2005, 12:08
As stated before, all that is required to declare a charge is LOS and a player may not declare a charge that is obviously out of range. I don't know if there are any Q&A's but as far as I'm concerned none are required... it's in the rulebook under 'Declaring Charges' in black and white. If you cannot complete the charge (e.g. unit in the way) then your charge has failed exactly as stated under failed charges. If you cannot then move the full distance of the failed charge (due to the said unit) I would say follow the rules for impassable terrain... afterall, you can't move over/through it.

cheers,

enyoss

T10
04-08-2005, 12:20
Isn't there a Q&A determining if charging a unit that is obviously out of range is allowed or not? Why not write the roolzboyz and ask?

I can't see how this could be adjudicated within the current rule-set.

A failed charge obviously carries with it penalties: limited movement, no option to shoot. There is no immediate benefit for a unit to declare a charge it *knows* it will fail, so technically the games designers could have left it at that.

However, they did catch on to the fact that one might derive a secondary benefit from declaring an impossible charge, as in the situation discussed here.

Unfortunately, "reasonable chance of success" is a matter of opinion. This works both for and against the cheater. He can claim excess confidence in reaching the target (and clear the way for a different unit) or he can become very... accurate when it serves him:

"Hey! 16" is a lot longer than you would think. I'm pretty sure I can reach that unit... Oops - short by 7". My bad. At least the way is clear for my Grail Knight-train! Woot-Woot!"

"I'm afraid you too confident my friend. That is CLEARLY 8.1 or 8.15", even to my naked eye. You can't charge when it is that obvious you're out of reach!"

-T10

gortexgunnerson
04-08-2005, 17:07
@festus

A frenzied unit must charge a unit if one is in range so its not that it cannot declare charges but it cannot fail charge a unit whilst another is in range as this goes against the rule it must charge a unit if in range. Therefore their is no playable use for declaring a charge with them. As if their is a unit in range you have to charge it and will find out when you measure it. Using the tactic discribed in the example the frenzied unit has not charged a unit in range at the start of the turn so goes against the rules for frenzy and hence the move is illegal

Festus
04-08-2005, 17:18
Hi

The frenzied unit can indeed attemt to charge a target outside of its charge reach:

The frenzied unit can declare a charge on a perceived target if it is reasonable that it succeeds in the charge: Like for example a Khornate Unit blocked in its path by a unit of broken Chaos Hounds (which are not likely to rally and thus will be gone by the time the charges are moved) or a broken unit with less than 25% remaining (which cannot rally at all and will thus be distinctly out of the way).

There are a whole host of possibilities which make it advantageous for a frenzied unit to declare a charge, but they don't crop up too often.

A frenzied unit doesn't have to charge a target that is in its reach *at the start of the turn* at all.
But if it fails to declare a charge, it must charge noetheless if there are enemies to be butchered in range.

The failing of a charge with a frenzied unit is all but illegal.
It might be bad generalship, it might be bad luck, it might even be against the spirit of the rules sometimes, but it surely is not illegal in itself.

Festus

gortexgunnerson
04-08-2005, 19:55
How can it not be illegal, the rules say the unit must charge if a unit is in range therefore not charging when a unit is in range is counter to this. Basially if its out of range I would say they have to pick a target in range. The only time I would accept this is if the frenzy unit charges a unit in range and it flees behond its charge range.

Crazy Harborc
04-08-2005, 21:17
Um....I have/had the impression that to declare a charge you can't be blocked and must see the unit you are declaring against, at the time charges are declared. That would be before fleeing units would be out of the way.

mageith
05-08-2005, 02:52
Um....I have/had the impression that to declare a charge you can't be blocked and must see the unit you are declaring against, at the time charges are declared. That would be before fleeing units would be out of the way.
Two things are needed to declare a charge:
1) See the target
2) reasonably be able to reach the target. We've always played that pretty loosely. We say that if a unit can reasonably reach it at any time it can declare the charge. I've never seen or been part of a serious argument over this issue.

However working backwards to a frenzy charge, this presents some problems. I think most of us realize that there is some manipulation available to those the play with frenzy.

Mage Ith

Festus
05-08-2005, 08:45
Hi

How can it not be illegal, the rules say the unit must charge if a unit is in range therefore not charging when a unit is in range is counter to this. Basially if its out of range I would say they have to pick a target in range.

Mate, come on and reread the paragraph on frenzy (p.84 of the BRB).
The second paragraph states very clearly that you indeed MAY declare normal charges with your frenzied troops, following all the normal rules.


The only time I would accept this is if the frenzy unit charges a unit in range and it flees behond its charge range.

This can happen with frenzied charges also, no fuss about it...
A frenzied unit may declare a charge even if it turns out to be unable to complete this charge, thus resulting in a failed charge.
The player must be reasonably sure that the cahreg will succeed, though.

Festus

Latro
05-08-2005, 10:18
Maybe it would help if they changed the rules about failed charges a bit:

- if after measuring a charge comes up short of it's intended target, it can only move up to it's normal distance during the remaining moves phase ... all other restrictions to failed charges still remain ofcourse.


I think that would pretty much sort it out

Festus
05-08-2005, 12:55
Hi

This would be rather as disadvantageous as it would be advantageous, wouldn't it?

It would still be at a certain time in the turn and then you had no chance of blocking other charges by a unit that just failed its own charge.

Either way it is very exploitable IMO.

I don't really see a problem with frenzied troops declaring normal charges, as those still have to be reasonably sure to succeed, and as you don't measure during declaration, you cannot be sure of the distance.

I think the ability to not declare a charge, then measure the distance and still pick the unit you are going to attack is more of a bonus than a drawback.

Greetings
Festus