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Irakaz
11-03-2007, 00:37
Just played a friendly game with another beastmen player and the following situation came up.

I charged some mounted daemonettes, killed them and was subsequently charged by his skirmishing herd which was only an inch or two away from my unit. I chose to hold and a nearby veteran laughed because he said that the herds had to line up in one long line to get all the models into contact.

Neither of us could think of any rules to the contrary but we decided to line them up 5 models wide. What would be the correct procedure for future reference? You're meant to get as many models in contact as possible but it just didn't seem the correct way. Its never really come up before as the games Ive played with beastmen any herd vs herd combat has been at a decent charge range.



Just a quick check for galrauch. When rolling at the start of the turn for leadership can you re-roll one dice if you fail using the daemonic gift?

Also just to make sure Im reading this right. He is suceptible to psychology tests as he is not immune to psychology and his attacks are not daemonic even though he has gifts and ward save?

Festus
11-03-2007, 09:32
Hi

I don't get why they should form up like that:

Basically, they form up like Skirmishers (ie. as much as can be brought into contact must be brought into contact) with the added rule about the percentage in range - which seemed to be no issue here.
Apart from that, Gors go before Ungors if there is a choice, and the command Group goes up front, and the unit is formed up at least 4 wide if it were less than this.

Galrauch may use the Gift to reroll one of the dice, yes.

Festus

TheWarSmith
11-03-2007, 09:37
They form up in a HUGE long line(if possible). Happened to me playing beast vs. beast today. They rank to each other, so the one with the fewest models ranks as wide as possible, adn the larger unit ranks to that(gors in front obviously).

DeathlessDraich
11-03-2007, 10:06
Just to clarify -

If it is a beast herd charging another beast herd (or a skirmisher unit) which is not in combat, then only the charging models which are within charging distance form the battle line.
pg 19 BOC " and is initially ranked up in the same way as skirmishers".

Therefore the length of the charging models in base contact depends on how many of them are within charging distance [to the nearest enemy model]. It is possible in this case to have Ungors in front - they rank up on the sides after all Gors have been used to form the front line.

Irakaz
11-03-2007, 12:01
I think I preferred the way we did it then. Otherwise we would have had one line of about 15 on my side and 20 on his side. It didn't make much difference in the game since the main action was on the other flank, but if it had been in the middle of the battlefield lining them all up according to the rules would be very messy indeed.

We made up a sort of house rule between us that if it happened again we would keep it at 5 wide. Or at least wide enough to keep all characters and command involved in the battle.

Aelyn
11-03-2007, 13:17
The correct approach is for the whichever unit is the smaller to line up in one line and for the larger of the two units to rank up two wider than that (for corner contact) and the rest of the models in the larger unit to rank up in the long line. For the purposes of comparing unit size, charging models are only considered if they're actually in charge range.

However, this:

We made up a sort of house rule between us that if it happened again we would keep it at 5 wide. Or at least wide enough to keep all characters and command involved in the battle.
is perfectly acceptable. It's a game, if this makes things more enjoyable for you then do it :)

TheWarSmith
11-03-2007, 16:38
That house rule way is fine way to do it, cause otherwise it just gets to be a major PITA, even if it is the way to do it.

The game I had yesterday, we just moved our units together, but didn't physically put them wide.

He had 15 strong herds, so I had 17 wide, no ranks for either of us.

Remember that beast herds just need 25% to get in, then EVERYTHING can get into combat, regardless of where it started,.

Festus
11-03-2007, 21:07
Erm... I do not have the BoC book here, but...

a 17 long line???

That means that at least a few moved more than double their normal move (ie. their charge move). his surely is not possible even with raiders? Or is it?

Festus

TheWarSmith
11-03-2007, 21:14
My book is in the car, but that's the jist of the raiders rule. Somebody can feel free to post it please.

Basicially instead of normal skirmishers, who can only fight if they had sufficient movement to get in, Beasts just have to have 25%. If they don't, it's failed, so that's a penalty against them. You do indeed rank up as wide as the skirmisher., so you rank up to the shorter beast line.

I think they should cap this, because it becomes excessively stupid when you have 500mm battle lines.

DeathlessDraich
12-03-2007, 10:58
Just had a look at your car Warsmith - no BOC rulebook but lots of ...:D

Beast herd charging skirmisher (or beast herd)

Assuming the charge is successful (>25% etc), the length of the line is still dependent on the number of *chargers* within charge distance "of the fighting line" - pg 67.

It's only for the 2 closest models that the charge distance is measured from model to model.

If not all charging models can reach, it is more likely that the charged skirmisher unit will be wider than the charging skirmisher unit when ranking up.

So your 17" front line is possible.

On a side note:
If there are only 3 models in the herd this rule becomes meaningless:
"if the unit would normally form up less than 4 models wide, then it forms up four models wide"

Caern
12-03-2007, 15:42
Deathless has explained it very clearly. Find the two models (the charged and the charging) that are the closest to each other. Draw a direct line from one to the other. A perpendicular line to the one you just drew will form at the point of contact with the unit being charged.

All models in the charging unit that can reach this line, must line up with it.

Then, as per Beast Herd rules, Gors and the Command are pushed forward to the front ranks - they displace any Ungors there, those Ungors will get put where the Gors used to be.

The unit being charged will then also line up with this line and must maximise their contact. If you have a 17 strong beast herd, and it happens that all 17 of them are close enough to make it to the fighting line, then you end up with a 17-model wide line with no ranks. It pays to think ahead with your herds (and any skirmishers for that matter) so that you get the best results you can out of your charges. In the case of Beast Herds, that means stretching yourself out a bit so that you will have some ranks.

The Raiders rule about ranking 4-wide (Which one can consider 5 with a reasonable opponent to match 7th edition) is for situations when for some reason, the Herd would rank up less than 4(5)-wide, such as when it is declaring a charge but can only bring three models to the fighting line. In this case, the Raiders rule kicks in and the line is expanded to 4(5) wide.

Strangelove
12-03-2007, 19:52
The Raiders rule about ranking 4-wide (Which one can consider 5 with a reasonable opponent to match 7th edition)
This has been FAQ'd. They still form up 4 wide. The designers feel that this is a reasonable disadvantage considering that Ambush is now more powerful in 7th edition.