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Belerophon709
11-03-2007, 18:36
Hey.

Imagine the following:

My Chaos Lord sitting atop his Chaos Dragon charges a unit of 20 dwarf warriors, including a champ. At the same time, my unit of warhounds charges the flank of said dwarf unit. My Chaos Lord issues a challenge with his Bindings of Slaanesh (cannot be refused + I get to pick which character to fight).

Since the rest of the dwarf unit won't be fighting to the front, does the warhound attack still count as a flanking charge, hence negating his rank bonus, or will it count as a front charge since none of the other sides of the dwarven unit are engaged (if the side the Chaos Lord is on counts as unengaged of course)?

I seem to remember reading somewhere (could be a previous WHFB edition) that a flank charge only counts as a flank charge for purposes of CR-bonus and rank negation if the charged unit is engaged to one of the remaining 3 sides as well. If this is not the case, then the above question is, of course, self-explanatory.


Help please! :D


Bele

Gorbad Ironclaw
11-03-2007, 19:23
Thats not the case.

The only thing that had anything to do with that was panic checks, and thats not in the rules anymore.

Wings of Doom
11-03-2007, 21:13
A flank charge counts as a flank charge regardless of which models can fight.

Belerophon709
11-03-2007, 22:36
So (just to clarify), unit A charging unit B in the flank would negate the rank bonus of unit B, as long as the US of unit A is > or equal to 5?
Also, is it possible for unit B to reform to the flank in subsequent turns of the combat? Seems a bit off if they can't...

May sound silly, but I really need this spelled out, so bear with me, please... ;)

TheWarSmith
11-03-2007, 23:03
The attacking/charging unit would have to be US5+ at the END of combat when combat resolution was calculated.

So in your example, the chaos lord challenges out a character/champion, whatever, from the front. They have a jolly old time, and a dwarf is most likely now a milkshake.

The warhounds kill 1 dwarf, and then 4 dwarves fight back(asuming you had 5 deep). If they wound 3 of those warhounds(assuming there were 5 to start), then they would NOT flank at the end. There would be no +1 and no rank denial.

Flank bonus simply has to be US5+ at the end of combat and be on the units flank(and not BE flanked itself). There is no restriction on having to be also engaged on the front. Note that you can turn in subsequent rounds(but maybe only if you win i think?).

You didn't bring it up, but please note that skirmishers never deny ranks.

Belerophon709
11-03-2007, 23:20
Ahhh, cheers Warsmith... Makes a bit more sense now... However, as I read the rule, you can spread out your "front rank" when you win combat to get more models into the fray - but your flank is hardly your front rank is it?

So in the case that it's only the warhounds and the dwarves, and assuming that the warhounds still have a unit strength of 5 or more, would they still be negating the dwarves rank bonus, even if the dwarves win the combat and - by my reasoning at least - should be able to turn and apply their full unit strength to what was, initially, their flank?

Archaon
11-03-2007, 23:23
Also to be able to issue, accept or deny a challenge both participants have to be in base contact.

A hero in the flank can't challenge or be challenged by a hero who's in the center of the front rank.

Belerophon709
11-03-2007, 23:25
Also to be able to issue, accept or deny a challenge both participants have to be in base contact.

A hero in the flank can't challenge or be challenged by a hero who's in the center of the front rank.

He can with the Bindings of Slaanesh...

Baindread
11-03-2007, 23:41
Also to be able to issue, accept or deny a challenge both participants have to be in base contact.

A hero in the flank can't challenge or be challenged by a hero who's in the center of the front rank.

Both heroes must be in base contact with an enemy, not with each other.

TheWarSmith
12-03-2007, 04:22
They have to be in the fighting rank, meaning if you flank and challenge, but the character/champion is not on the corner which touches you, you can't challenge.

Achor
12-03-2007, 10:25
I agree with all but one thing here and that is that if for instance toe dwarfs killed 3 of the 5 hounds in the flank they would not get the +1 for a flank, but they would still negate ranks because ranks are worked out at the start of the combat before blows are struck when the hounds where unit strength 10 rather than 4.

Jonke
12-03-2007, 10:50
You calculate ranks at the beginning of the combat. If you kill of enough flankers to reduce them to us <5 the unit regain their rank bonus at the start of the following turn. brb 38.

The flanking bonus on the other hand is calculated at the end of combat together with all other bonuses.

If you win combat while engaged to one side (front, rear or one flank) you may perform either a turn or change formation to increase the number of models in btb. brb 46 and 13-14.

Peace!

Belerophon709
12-03-2007, 15:38
Normally, to issue a challenge, the challenger and at least one enemy character must be in base to base contact with ANY enemy, they do not have to be in contact with eachother.

However, using the Bindings of Slaanesh, the chaos player can challenge even if there are no characters in base to base contact as described above, and on top of that, he can choose which character to fight. He may even choose a character who is not in the rank where the fighting is going on, from the middle of the enemy unit for example, and this challenge can't be refused.


Bele