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larabic
11-03-2007, 18:49
Ok, so an engineer can use this weapon to pick out a model in a unit with a -1 penalty, that i get but will the rifle take any additional penalties that normally apply.

What happened reccently in that a engineer sniped a wardancer champion out of his unit... so does the engineer have a -2 penalty ...one for aiming and one for skirmished? Or does he get to ignore all that?

kruzkal
11-03-2007, 19:34
Bonuses and penalties stack as normal.

TheWarSmith
11-03-2007, 19:38
the skirmish penalty personally shouldnt' really apply, but i think it does.

The long rifle rules didnt' change at all(or very little), and the idea was that you got the -1 cuase you were shooting a single model, who granted -1 to hit as per a normal skirmish/single model. A single model in a skirmishing unit kind of is doubling this effect, but that's the ruling, so i think it works that wya.

kruzkal
11-03-2007, 19:45
You can also consider that the way skirmishers move makes it harder pick a single model out than if they were lined up in a line for example.

DeathlessDraich
11-03-2007, 20:00
The penalty will be -3 against a Wardancer champion - (-1) for long range and (-1) for skirmisher and (-1) for singling out the model.

TheWarSmith
11-03-2007, 20:18
well, they'd get long range period, yes, but that's dependent upon how close the wardancers are.

Atrahasis
11-03-2007, 20:47
Can anyone quote the Hochland rules? My little brother came up for Conflict last weekend and appears to have "borrowed" my Empire book.

Festus
11-03-2007, 20:54
Hi

Yes, the modifier does not apply, as it is explicitly cancelled in the HLLR rules:

*The normal -1 modifier for shooting at a single Man-sized unit does not apply (but other modifiers do)...*

There are only 7 basic to hit modifiers:

Large Target (+1) applies
shooting on the move (-1) cannot apply due to weapon rules
shooting at cover, either soft (-1)
or hard (-2) applies
long range (-1) applies
S&S reaction (-1) applies
Skirmishers or Man-sized (-1) does not apply due to the HLLR rules

Festus

TheWarSmith
11-03-2007, 21:51
Maybe a stupid question, but are the man sized and skirmishing modifiers one in the same? Are they listed separately or together?

Archaon
11-03-2007, 22:32
The penalty will be -3 against a Wardancer champion - (-1) for long range and (-1) for skirmisher and (-1) for singling out the model.

No it wouldn't.. he is shooting a Wardancer Champion model who is part of the unit.. so only -2 (1- for Skirmisher and the Hochland -1 for sniping).

Even if he was shooting a hero character who joined the Wardancers it would still only be -2 because while joined he's not a single model on foot for targeting purposes.

Atrahasis
11-03-2007, 22:36
Single model on foot explicitly does not stack with the hochland penalty.

TheWarSmith
11-03-2007, 22:37
You've just proven his point exactly.

The extra minus one that you're incorrectly arguing against was for long range which he was assuming.

I agree with Atrahasis on this, but I don't have a rulebook to see whether "individual model on foot" and "skirmisher" are technically 2 different penalties.

alextroy
12-03-2007, 04:12
The To Hit Modifier is "-1 Shooting a single model or skirmishers". This modifier does not count if the models are not US1 and is negated by the Hochland Long Rifle's Scientific Precision.

TheWarSmith
12-03-2007, 04:24
Ok, so shooting a wardancer champion would only be -1(-2 if long range).

I hate this item for it's ability to snipe beast herd characters, but that does bring up an interesting point. If I know my opponent has long rifles, and I would because you have to announce mundane equipment, can i place my foe render towards the back of the herd or w/ blocked line of sight(put a gor screen in front) so that he couldn't physically see him?

larabic
12-03-2007, 05:57
As far as i know you can place your models anyway you like in a skirmish unit to block LoS to your champ...but if he's on a hill its going to be real tough.

DeathlessDraich
12-03-2007, 09:56
(-3) as I said previously.
Pg47 "The shooter may pick any target within a unit ...but if he uses this ability he will suffer a -1 to hit penalty. The normal -1 modifier for shooting at a single model does not apply [silly pt since there is a -1 above] but other modifiers do"
Therefore
-1 for long range
-1 for skirmisher
-1 for Hochland targeting a single character

Thats (-3).

EvC
12-03-2007, 11:44
You get -1 for shooting at skirmishers, the Wardancers are Skirmishers so it's still an additional -1 for the singling-out penalty to -2 to hit. If the rules meant to say that you ignore the penalty for shooting at skirmishers, it would, and it doesn't, so you don't.

Why are you bringing in the long range penalty in this situation, DD? Best to ignore it, it muddies the waters.


Single model on foot explicitly does not stack with the hochland penalty.

Explicitly and obviously, since why would you single out a single model on foot when you can shoot at it freely anyway? :wtf:

DeathlessDraich
12-03-2007, 12:09
:p
You get -1 for shooting at skirmishers, the Wardancers are Skirmishers so it's still an additional -1 for the singling-out penalty to -2 to hit. If the rules meant to say that you ignore the penalty for shooting at skirmishers, it would, and it doesn't, so you don't.

Why are you bringing in the long range penalty in this situation, DD? Best to ignore it, it muddies the waters.
:

Okely dokely, fellow Londonrooney:p

TheWarSmith
12-03-2007, 12:33
But isn't the penalty for shooting at a skirmisher the same for single characters? i.e. isn't it one or the other?

jullevi
12-03-2007, 13:20
Penalty for shooting skirmishers apply only if the target is a unit of skirmishers. Wardancer champion is not a unit of skirmishers, he is a single model.

Likewise, you don't get -2 to hit against a lone survivor of a skink unit with any weapon - he is a unit of one model, but the penalty for shooting at a single models or a unit of skirmishers is not applied twice.

EvC
12-03-2007, 13:36
But isn't the penalty for shooting at a skirmisher the same for single characters? i.e. isn't it one or the other?

They have the same effect and are considered similar enough to warrant the same line, "-1 Shooting a single model or skirmishers", but if the Hochland rule says to ignore the penalty for shooting at single man-sized targets, that does not also mean that you should also ignore the penalty for shooting at skirmishers.

(It -might- mean it though, can't be sure of it unfortunately! Logically you don't ignore the fact that you're shooting at skirmishers, despite what jullevi says, a Wardancer champion is not a single model, he's a member of a unit of skirmishers)

Given that a single model on foot counts as a skirmisher for a number of purposes, if the rule's exception did not apply to skirmishers it would have made more sense for it to say there is no penalty for shooting at skirmishers.

DeathlessDraich
12-03-2007, 13:38
But isn't the penalty for shooting at a skirmisher the same for single characters? i.e. isn't it one or the other?

-1 penalty for isolating characters in a unit is a special Hochland penalty.

If the Hoch rifle is shooting at a unit of Skirmishers, without its special ability of isolating any model, it would suffer the -1 penalty for shooting at Skirmishers [of Us1].
Therefore if it isolates a character within the skirmishing unit it suffers a -2 penalty. No penalties have been applied twice.
Only when shooting at a skirmisher unit of 1 model will the question of applying -1 penalty twice arise. i.e. -1 penalty only in this case.

At BS4 - it shows the Hoch rifle is not very good.

TheWarSmith
12-03-2007, 13:41
Not very good at picking out skirmish champs, no, but it's not too shabby at pulling those orc champs out and making the unit a lot less powerful on the charge.

Negativemoney
12-03-2007, 14:37
Hi

Yes, the modifier does not apply, as it is explicitly cancelled in the HLLR rules:

*The normal -1 modifier for shooting at a single Man-sized unit does not apply (but other modifiers do)...*

There are only 7 basic to hit modifiers:

Large Target (+1) applies
shooting on the move (-1) cannot apply due to weapon rules
shooting at cover, either soft (-1)
or hard (-2) applies
long range (-1) applies
S&S reaction (-1) applies
Skirmishers or Man-sized (-1) does not apply due to the HLLR rules

Festus

I am in complete agreement with this statement.

Atrahasis
12-03-2007, 15:43
The penalty for shooting at skirmishers is the same penalty that the Hochland rules tell us to ignore.

As has been pointed out above, page 28 lumps them under the same rule. If that is not indication enough that the penalty is the same, page 67 says:

"Enemies shooting against a unit of man-sized skirmishers suffer a -1 to hit penalty in the same way as if they were shooting at a single man-sized model" (emphasis mine).

Scientific Precision tells us to ignore the penalty for single man-sized models, the skirmish rules tell us the skirmish penalty is the same thing, therefore we ignore it.

DeathlessDraich
12-03-2007, 16:26
I wouldn't say it's the same.
If an archer shoots at a skirmisher unit, is he shooting at the unit or at a model?
If an engineer shoots at a skirmisher unit, is he shooting at the unit or at a model?
As far as the bullet or arrow is concerned, a single model is being shot but in warhammer terms a unit is being shot at and there will be penalties for shooting at that unit.

If the engineer with the Hoch rifle shoots at a skirmisher unit without using the isolating special property of the Hoch rifle, he would suffer a -1 penalty.

Taking the rules in context, the model isolating special rule of the Hochland rifle incurs a penalty.


.................................................. ............Shooooting penalties
...............................................in ranked up unit ........... in Skirmishers
Shot with Hochland rifle isolation.........-1 ,,,,............................?
Shot without Hoch rifle isolation ......... 0................................-1

I don't feel comfortable with replacing the (?) with a -1.

explorator
12-03-2007, 16:30
The penalty for shooting at skirmishers is the same penalty that the Hochland rules tell us to ignore.
As has been pointed out above, page 28 lumps them under the same rule. If that is not indication enough that the penalty is the same, page 67 says:
"Enemies shooting against a unit of man-sized skirmishers suffer a -1 to hit penalty in the same way as if they were shooting at a single man-sized model" (emphasis mine).
Scientific Precision tells us to ignore the penalty for single man-sized models, the skirmish rules tell us the skirmish penalty is the same thing, therefore we ignore it.

I agree, this makes sense.

EvC
12-03-2007, 16:49
"Enemies shooting against a unit of man-sized skirmishers suffer a -1 to hit penalty in the same way as if they were shooting at a single man-sized model" (emphasis mine).

Yes, in the same way in that you deduct one from your dice-roll.

If the rule said, "-1 for shooting at blue or yellow models", and you had an exemption that means you never take deductions for shooting at blue models, that doesn't mean you also get an exemption from shooting at yellow models as well.

Nice appeal to a higher power with "scientific precision" though ;)

Negativemoney
12-03-2007, 17:38
I wouldn't say it's the same.
If an archer shoots at a skirmisher unit, is he shooting at the unit or at a model?
If an engineer shoots at a skirmisher unit, is he shooting at the unit or at a model?
As far as the bullet or arrow is concerned, a single model is being shot but in warhammer terms a unit is being shot at and there will be penalties for shooting at that unit.


Shooting at a unit of skirmishers is the samething as shooting at a group of individual models. In reality when shooting a group of people in skirmish formation one would try to isolate individuals rather than just fire blindly at the group. The same holds true here. There is no diffrence between shooting at a skirmish unit of 1 model or a skirmish unit of 5 models. either way you look at it you are shooting at a single model.

EvC
12-03-2007, 17:48
Every time someone references "reality" in this forum while referring to an abstract set of rules governing a fantasy world, a fishman pops out of existence. Moreso when they do it without accurately thinking of the realities of reality.

Arm someone with a sniper rifle, give them a set amount of time to fire (Say, the amount of time it takes someone to fire any other gun), and tell them to shoot at a group of people, they'll comply. Tell them to shoot at a looser group of people and they'll do the same, but with a lower density of targets, they'll have to rush a bit (-1 to hit!). Now tell them to specifically look at each member of the group and pick out the leader of the group in the same amount of time and you know what? They're going to be rushed even more. Have another -1 to hit, please.

Crazy Harborc
12-03-2007, 18:05
Well, I say when using Empire snipers don't play against Woodies. OR Don't snipe at the wardancers.;)

The sniper is not shooting at the unit of skirmishers. The sniper is shooting at an individual figure/model. Hey THAT is the answer my opponent gave when I was the sniper player. IF the sniper shoot at the unit of skirmisher unit would a penality of -1 be added because an individual character was in the unit?

And further more your honor.......when I have a marksmen/sniper.....HIS die roll misses anyhow. THATS with or without the Hochland mumble, mumble. I could use a repeater handgun at close range....it would miss:confused:

Chicago Slim
12-03-2007, 18:29
I'm of the general opinion that (a) the HLR is net -1 to hit when targetting models that have joined a skirmish unit, and (b) the people who disagree will not be convinced otherwise.

That said, I'll give it a go: firing at a unit of skirmishers causes a -1 penalty to hit. However, the HLR is NOT firing at a unit of skirmisher. It is firing at an individual model. It takes a -1 penalty for doing so, regardless of the size of that model. It takes no further penalty for targeting an individual model, per the rules text for the HLR.

It hasn't come up, but might be germaine to mentions that the HLR IS an extra -1 to hit a Waywatcher champion (because waywatchers are always an extra -1 to be shot).

Atrahasis
12-03-2007, 18:57
If the engineer with the Hoch rifle shoots at a skirmisher unit without using the isolating special property of the Hoch rifle, he would suffer a -1 penalty.If the engineer shoots at a single model without using the isolation rule he suffers a -1 penalty. The fact that in a different situation different penalties apply means nothing.

The rules tell us explicitly that shooting at skirmishers incurs a penalty in the same way as a single model. If you ignore the penalty in one case and not the other you are not treating them in the same way, which is contrary to the rules.

Greyfire
13-03-2007, 04:38
And further more your honor.......when I have a marksmen/sniper.....HIS die roll misses anyhow. THATS with or without the Hochland mumble, mumble. I could use a repeater handgun at close range....it would miss:confused:

;) Funny, I thought I was the only one that happened to. Many a games gone like this - hmmm... long range, sniping, er, never mind, let me just roll to see what the die is before I slow the game down some more with math. Oh, a 2. Nevermind. :( Things speed up when I roll to even see if it matters what the modifiers would have been, it seems, at least with the Hochland.

-=- Greyfire