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simonhaZe
11-03-2007, 23:08
Hey, any ideas on how a WE should take on a hoarding battle-line-keeping skaven army for 1000 points? He will always outnumber me and get his 3 ranks + the standard,, thats +5 in combat result even before we start fighting..

I've got glade riders and wild riders for the rank neglecting, but a good battle-lined skaven won't get flanked too much by them. My shooting should ofc be used to kill of the skaven ranks, but it's hard to kill like 10+ skavens before his rankbonuses start to drop.. Any ideas? Skaven are pretty tough imo.

bowmandk1993
12-03-2007, 03:33
Dryads are good for negating rank bonuses. Another thing to do is not to stand still, don't get into combat with him. Just keep on the move. Take a large unit of eternal guard for the close quarter combat. Good luck

RavenBloodwind
12-03-2007, 04:04
A few thoughts as my regular opponent runs skaven fairly frequently.

Just a correction for bowman above, since dryads skirmish they do not negate ranks when attacking in the flank.

As to tactics for the skaven:
1) march interdiction buys time for shooting. Use glade riders to sweep behind his line and march block. Also they are good for sniping weapon teams at the same time. Warhawks can work for this as well but cose more than I like to pay. If he takes warplightning cannon then flyer can be handy.

2) remember his leadership is directly related to his rank bonuses so thinning his ranks is important as is negating if you can get the flank charge. Most skaven are lightly armored and glade guard shooting can absolutely devastate a sizable unit.

3) psychology can be very useful, especially if he has units that are far from his general/BSB. Dryads are cheap and cause fear. Tree kin similarly work well, CAN negate ranks and can take a serious beating and shrug it off. Blight of terrors on a fast moving model (wardancer noble, scout noble, mounted noble, eagle noble...you get the picture) can work very well if you concentrate on the units outside the generals influence range.

4) Shoot the weapon teams! Rattling guns and warp fire throwers make a mess of skirmishers and don't allow your dryads a save as their magical and don't leave much save for treekin.

5) Shoot-move-shoot-repeat. I routinely play a glade-guard heavy (50 GG in 2k) army and usually do well against skaven.

6) Wardancers can make skaven (and anything else T3) cry. Hitting in the flank of a large unit you can usually get at least 7 guys in contact. Hitting in the flank negates the shield-handweapon parry save bonus. With the +1 attack dance you're dishing out 22 (with champion) WS6 (hit on 3) S4 (wound on 3) attacks. If you lose combat your dice have really failed you.

simonhaZe
12-03-2007, 09:13
A few thoughts as my regular opponent runs skaven fairly frequently.

Just a correction for bowman above, since dryads skirmish they do not negate ranks when attacking in the flank.

As to tactics for the skaven:
1) march interdiction buys time for shooting. Use glade riders to sweep behind his line and march block. Also they are good for sniping weapon teams at the same time. Warhawks can work for this as well but cose more than I like to pay. If he takes warplightning cannon then flyer can be handy.

2) remember his leadership is directly related to his rank bonuses so thinning his ranks is important as is negating if you can get the flank charge. Most skaven are lightly armored and glade guard shooting can absolutely devastate a sizable unit.

3) psychology can be very useful, especially if he has units that are far from his general/BSB. Dryads are cheap and cause fear. Tree kin similarly work well, CAN negate ranks and can take a serious beating and shrug it off. Blight of terrors on a fast moving model (wardancer noble, scout noble, mounted noble, eagle noble...you get the picture) can work very well if you concentrate on the units outside the generals influence range.

4) Shoot the weapon teams! Rattling guns and warp fire throwers make a mess of skirmishers and don't allow your dryads a save as their magical and don't leave much save for treekin.

5) Shoot-move-shoot-repeat. I routinely play a glade-guard heavy (50 GG in 2k) army and usually do well against skaven.

6) Wardancers can make skaven (and anything else T3) cry. Hitting in the flank of a large unit you can usually get at least 7 guys in contact. Hitting in the flank negates the shield-handweapon parry save bonus. With the +1 attack dance you're dishing out 22 (with champion) WS6 (hit on 3) S4 (wound on 3) attacks. If you lose combat your dice have really failed you.

They're all useable thoughts and I didn't know that a flank attack neglects the handweapon&shield save, I'll also have to marchblock alot more, maybe get a couple of treekin, so that my T-weaker hardhitting units can do the work in the flanks. The last skaven I met played a magic heavy, horde army, and magic is imo a lot more dangerous than weaponteams which could easily be shot down by the asrai. The god dammed 9+ warp lightning kissed both my waywatchers and wardancers goodnight. (He rolled 13, 4 times though)

arc
12-03-2007, 10:59
Dryads are good for negating rank bonuses. Another thing to do is not to stand still, don't get into combat with him. Just keep on the move. Take a large unit of eternal guard for the close quarter combat. Good luck

can skimisher negate rank?

simonhaZe
12-03-2007, 11:42
can skimisher negate rank?


nope! That'd be too good for Welves =)

Jonahmaul
12-03-2007, 13:13
I know Skaven are cheap but they also need large units so he should be able to line up across the table enough to stop you getting around his flanks or rear to stop marching (remember you can always march move in between units even if this stops you marching next turn as your fast enough to be outside the 8" march stop initially).

Flank attacks are incredibly important for a WE army as they usually have small units & against Skaven this is even more important so I would concentrate on one unit at a time if you can. If you negate a units rank bonus & beat it in combat then it is going to run unless it's very lucky allowing you to then concentrate on the next unit (or charge the fleeing unit again with you fast moving units).

Also try to make sure that you have something that can take on warmachines (although ratling guns etc don't really stand a chance with new targetting rules & WE being rather good shots!). Concentrate your shooting as well, IMO armies win on their basic troops so take a lot of GG and shoot units until they're whittled down. Combine this with the charges (including flank charges) and it should be relatively easy to take down a unit at a time.

simonhaZe
12-03-2007, 13:29
I know Skaven are cheap but they also need large units so he should be able to line up across the table enough to stop you getting around his flanks or rear to stop marching (remember you can always march move in between units even if this stops you marching next turn as your fast enough to be outside the 8" march stop initially).

Flank attacks are incredibly important for a WE army as they usually have small units & against Skaven this is even more important so I would concentrate on one unit at a time if you can. If you negate a units rank bonus & beat it in combat then it is going to run unless it's very lucky allowing you to then concentrate on the next unit (or charge the fleeing unit again with you fast moving units).

Also try to make sure that you have something that can take on warmachines (although ratling guns etc don't really stand a chance with new targetting rules & WE being rather good shots!). Concentrate your shooting as well, IMO armies win on their basic troops so take a lot of GG and shoot units until they're whittled down. Combine this with the charges (including flank charges) and it should be relatively easy to take down a unit at a time.

For 1000 points the skaven player got 25^2 clanrats with fullcommand, 20 plaguemonks full command and 20 stormvermin full command..

I had 12 dryads, 2^7 wardancers, 10 gladeguards = too few, and 6 waywatchers =unnecessary, Next time I'll get at least 20 gladeguard and gladeriders instead of waywatchers. It also felt like I really need to have 2 spellsingers to dispel all his crazy warplighting, but I dunno. With all his 13 rolls it wouldnt have mattered.

SevenSins
12-03-2007, 14:53
thats a very elite oriented skaven list, you shoul be able to draw those monks away from the rest and kill them of. What about characters? engineers? If he doesn't have any night runners its easier for you to flank at least.

Sashu
12-03-2007, 18:26
I play a skaven army that at 1000 points has almost 200 models... so that is where my perspective is coming from.

First this can't be said enough, hit him in the flanks. Period. If you hit a skaven player in the flank with something weak, that is not a skirmishing unit, it will break.

First, he does not get his rank bonus to leadership. This drops his LD by three. Second, he doesn't get any rank bonus. This drops his combat res by 3. Lastly you get the +1 for flanking. So, rather than him getting a base of +5, he gets +2, and counting in the flank from you, and probably the standard combat is now drawn. Add to the fact that you have better troops (everyone does) you will win by atleast one.

At this point the skaven player is taking a LD test on a 5, tops (at a 1000 points). Odds are he will break.

At this point repeat.

As a note on the plague monks, put them in a forest using your fast cav. Then leave them there. A flank attack may not break them by the time the flank of a 20 man unit still has 12 attacks. Just put a unit of fast cav visible to them, with a forest a close behind them as possible. When he charges ( he has to) flee into the forest. Repeat until he is in the forest, then leave him there. Than and beat him with the trees while your at it.

Von Wibble
12-03-2007, 20:34
In the capacity of flanking Glade Riders are very good. Also their shooting will remove ratling guns without wasting your glade guards shots.

Dryads worst possible match up are hordes. Take some by all means but they need support. Wild Riders are just too vulnerable and can't flee charges.

Therefore I would suggest an army something like

Wardancer Hero - Doesn't need anything to help maul skaven but blades of loec if you really must. I wouldn't bother though.

Branchwraith L1, cluster of radiants. You need to stop warlocks magic. This character can be dropped for another unit of dryads and an eagle if warlocks are not taken, but the branchwraith does add a lot to the dryad unit.

10 Glade Guard.

2 x 5 Glade Riders

8 Dryads.

3 x 5 wardancers.

A small army in models but less so in units - on this count you might outnumber your foe. This is important as wood elf units have the manouvrebility to pick their fights, and with plenty of units your chances of winning them are good.

On his army (which I only noticed after picking the one above!) - stormvermin are a pooor choice vs wood elves. Easily shot and expensive. Frenzied plague monks also look easily baited. I would be more afraid of seeing 2 unit of slaves and 2 of clanrats than the monks and stormvermin.

simonhaZe
12-03-2007, 23:20
I play a skaven army that at 1000 points has almost 200 models... so that is where my perspective is coming from.

First this can't be said enough, hit him in the flanks. Period. If you hit a skaven player in the flank with something weak, that is not a skirmishing unit, it will break.

First, he does not get his rank bonus to leadership. This drops his LD by three. Second, he doesn't get any rank bonus. This drops his combat res by 3. Lastly you get the +1 for flanking. So, rather than him getting a base of +5, he gets +2, and counting in the flank from you, and probably the standard combat is now drawn. Add to the fact that you have better troops (everyone does) you will win by atleast one.

At this point the skaven player is taking a LD test on a 5, tops (at a 1000 points). Odds are he will break.

At this point repeat.

As a note on the plague monks, put them in a forest using your fast cav. Then leave them there. A flank attack may not break them by the time the flank of a 20 man unit still has 12 attacks. Just put a unit of fast cav visible to them, with a forest a close behind them as possible. When he charges ( he has to) flee into the forest. Repeat until he is in the forest, then leave him there. Than and beat him with the trees while your at it.

that was one of the best tips i've ever gotten, the "force frenzy into terrain"-thing, the flanking is obvious but still, thanks.

simonhaZe
12-03-2007, 23:44
Branchwraith L1, cluster of radiants. You need to stop warlocks magic. This character can be dropped for another unit of dryads and an eagle if warlocks are not taken, but the branchwraith does add a lot to the dryad unit.


As I said, he is magic heavy and rolled lucky number 13 on the 9+ lightning three times. Wiped out my unit of waywatchers, half my unit of wardancers and like 5 dryads.. Only had 1 singer, should've had a branchwraith with the cluster instead, indeed. But a skaven with 2 warlocks get's 3 power dice each with the accumulator and the other thing there. It's rough.

BadAssBerzerker
13-03-2007, 07:38
another tip you might wana play is mount a noble with some starfire arrows. Might give you a nice chance on causing a panic test. Hey he's bound to fail one time or another. I can't give you any more advice then the rest gave you cause all of it was good.!! and worth considering...

Best 2 advice tips I did read tho was keeping your units small and movable allowing you to pick and choose your fights..another was the force charge...I love doing this tatic and then nailing thoese poor souls with "Furry of the Forrest & the tree mans strangle root attacks".

WE seem to have the best movement in the game it self and if done right can out manouver "mostly" anything..