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twj
12-03-2007, 10:31
I haven't heard many comments regarding the effectiveness of the Empire Special Characters, unlike the O&G ones (everyone loves Grimgor and Skarsnik.)
I'm just interested if the random claims made in the Empire Army Book are true, for example they claim Belthesar Gelt will rule the magic phase, which I find hard to believe...
Basically are they any good?

Onisuzume
12-03-2007, 10:51
I'm just interested if the random claims made in the Empire Army Book are true, for example they claim Belthesar Gelt will rule the magic phase, which I find hard to believe...
I also find that hard to believe.
Since any lizardmen player can grab a slann and dominate the magic phase a *lot* more then Gelt could even do.

Anyways:
I think that Kurt Helborg isn't that bad, since he has Ld7 and a runefang.
As well as being an illegal character if you'd try to make a normal character like him.

Karl Franz, well, I don't have much experiance with him.

Volkmar seems rather useless, frenzy on a chariot. >_>
My JSoD will tear through him like there's no tomorrow.

Gelt: Like I said before; anyone with a Slann will dominate him.
And the lore of metals seems rather limited to me.
Gelt vs. Slann:
Gelt: +2 to cast, ignores first misscast. 3+ Ward save against shooting. Human Statline with +1T. Magic Resistance 1. Alchemist Surpeme. Mobile.
Slann: +1 to cast and dispel. Ignores misscasts from 4th generation and better. 4+ Ward save which can be increased to 2+ against shooting. A lot better then human statline.(he even has higher ws then gelt) No magic resistance. Can use different spell lores in the same game. (up to 5 spells from up to 5 different lores) Not very mobile. Gets to use an extra dice to cast spells with at 2nd generation for each spell he tries to cast. Can get magic item for +1 power&dispel dice. Can be general *and* army standard bearer at the same time, as well as having a magic banner *in addition to* his regular magic items.

So yeah, Gelt really dominates the magic phase.

Ludwig: Not all that bad I guess, seeing as he has Killing Blow.

Luthor: Lack of both good weapons as well as good armour. He has prayers though, for how much that's worth.

Varath- Lord Impaler
12-03-2007, 11:51
i think comparing a human wizard to the greatest wizards in fantasy (debatable) is not a good comparison.

What if Balthasar *gasp* wasnt fighting a slaan?

He is a hell of a nice addition, flying around and hitting that nasty knight units with spirit of the forge.

also, stopping warmachines and debilitating units is gold (pun intended) for an empire army.

jullevi
12-03-2007, 13:02
Empire special characters may seem good on paper, but the problem with them is that they are very expensive pointwise compared to regular empire characters or troops.

Kurt and Ludwig, for example, have nice abilities and are probably more than worth their points concerning the said abilities. However, their cost is still relatively high and while the characters are worth their points, the cost for including them in your army may not be worth it.

To clarify: while Ludwig himself would be worth 220pts, spending 220pts for a battle standard bearer with given abilities is may not be worth it. But who am I to say, I haven't tried them or the NEB yet.

Onisuzume
12-03-2007, 13:49
i think comparing a human wizard to the greatest wizards in fantasy (debatable) is not a good comparison.

What if Balthasar *gasp* wasnt fighting a slaan?
Tzeench maybe?
Or how does an elven mage/sorceress sound?

Also, some of the lore of metal spells make very little sense.
E.g. Rule of Burning Iron on a Kroxigor.
Kroxigor has a 4+ Scaly Skin save.
Rule of Burning Iron counts the 4+ save, making it a single S4 hit.
Why actually? The krox might not even have any metal objects on him!
Same goes for a Dragon's 3+ save.

Same goes for the Transmutation of Lead.
Err... yeah... sure, scaly skin is transformed to lead.:wtf:
Law of Gold, oh yes, do cast it on my slann! Since he's stocked with magic items that are immune to it. :p

He is a hell of a nice addition, flying around and hitting that nasty knight units with spirit of the forge.
Oh yes, very useful indeed. Though also very unlikely to be as good againt cold one riders. 3+ save. 4+ of which is granted by either scaly skin, or thick skinned/mounted. With the shield being made from skin, bones, leather, etc. Very likely that it'll "Unleash the full fury of the forge".
Afaik, they should get only a S1 or S2 hit, not the S5 that it says.

WLBjork
12-03-2007, 14:08
Simplicity.

It also avoids such claims as "But I'm using wooden/hide shields" etc. to reduce the effect of the spell.

Edit: And of course, you end up with the situation that Scaly Skin is better than armour in certain circumstances, which throws game balance out slightly.

Varath- Lord Impaler
12-03-2007, 14:22
Metal lore i like the most even with the 6th ed. rules. It just seems like a cool idea.

Also the old fluff of Thyrus Gorman vs Balthasar Gelt helped alot.


Err... yeah... sure, scaly skin is transformed to lead

Your trying to pull a 'Duh' on Transmutation? Perhaps you could say that the scaly skin could be made of calcium. The Gold wizard turns these to lead, suddenly your exo skeleton has become much much heavier.

THEN he casts spirit of of the forge on them.

EvC
12-03-2007, 14:24
Also, some of the lore of metal spells make very little sense.
E.g. Rule of Burning Iron on a Kroxigor.
Kroxigor has a 4+ Scaly Skin save.
Rule of Burning Iron counts the 4+ save, making it a single S4 hit.
Why actually? The krox might not even have any metal objects on him!
Same goes for a Dragon's 3+ save.

Same goes for the Transmutation of Lead.
Err... yeah... sure, scaly skin is transformed to lead.
Law of Gold, oh yes, do cast it on my slann! Since he's stocked with magic items that are immune to it.

Alchemy is all about changing chemicals from one form to another. In the case of the "Lore of Metal" (A vastly simplified way of putting it), the amount of damage caused is simply proportional to the amount of hard structures on the victim. Scaly skin being turned to lead, well that'll hurt won't it?

The peculiarities that arise are fun, too. Think of the case where such a spell is cast on Stone Trolls- first they get their Magic Resistance roll, then the spell hurts them more because of their armour save, and then the Trolls can't regenerate since it's a flaming attack :D

NakedFisherman
12-03-2007, 14:32
Ludwig is a powerhouse. His magical standard is awesome, and he has Killing Blow with the Sword of Justice (re-roll failed to-wound rolls).

ffarsight
12-03-2007, 14:44
Hi, iīve used recently 2 special characters:

1- Volkmar --- its a good character with nice points cost, very handy special rule, can kill things, but has a really big down side - all his good special rules are gone if the chariot is destroyed, and yes it can get destroyed, only a 4+ ward save isnīt enought agains some st 7 attacks. But is a good character in a WPīs army.

2 - Karl Franz in a warhorse, only 401 points and a great character for fighting, i mean, heīs a real monster.... i got him with a 7 Inner Circle knights unit 8 wide, can die 1 or 2 with shooting, but they are imune to pyschology, and have MR 3 back up with 2 more knights or a ST this is a winning unit. War banner, and you can also put a captain or a Wp inside. Well i got to charge 2 unitīs of chaos knights and make sure to always challenge someone with him... thatīs 6 wounds for combat resolution GRANTED. i always got 6+ wounds for the 3 or 4 attacks that hit. than its up to 3 more wounds from the knights, soo it donīt matter if they can kill 2 in return. its fantastic, Just be sure to be prepared for any dragons, but its amost always a win too.

I just donīt like Kurt and Ludwing soo much because they donīt have a ward save, but i want to try Ludwing with karl franz in the same unit of knights... that would be a even better combat unit...my god... :)

Thanks