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Jonahmaul
12-03-2007, 22:30
I have been playing LM for a long time now but I very rarely use skinks (my regular opponent usually plays Chaos so I like to just fight out CC with Saurus, Kroxigor's, Stegadon's & Cold One's). I am playing a game this Friday & my friend is going to be using his Empire this time so I am thinking this is a good time for me to try using more Skinks & especially using them as shields for Kroxigor (I'm expecting some missile troops this time!).

So basically I want to know if anybody can give me advice on how best to use these together? I have about 45 skinks & 6 Kroxigors. Thanks for helping.

PS please see my other thread about taking on Empire (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1378429#post1378429)

sigur
12-03-2007, 23:33
I have been playing LM for a long time now but I very rarely use skinks ...

Wow, you certainly don't hear that statement often from LM players, especially since Skinks are able to run circles around units of Chaos Warriors, Marauders, etc.

Don't the special rules for Kroxigors in conjunction with Skink skirmishers more or less dictate how to use those units together?

MarcoPollo
13-03-2007, 00:18
Skink screens are very useful when you have to confront a gunline. If you position your skinks well your kroxigors won't even have to take a round of stand and shoot.

The conventional wisdom is that scouts should have blowpipes (as they don't need to move so much) while krox screens should have javelins so that they can be effective on the march.

Consider this:

2 units of kroxigors and one unit of cold one knights with the huanichi banner can be screened relatively effectively with 2 small units of skinks. If your empire players is going to go gunline, then use those screens to your advantage. You will need to watch out for terror, and panic. So magic missles should be dispelled. There's not too much you can do about cannon balls. But you can limit his small arms fire.

Jonahmaul
13-03-2007, 10:15
Yeah Sigur, I've never been great with Skinks and seem to get them killed a lot because of their low toughness but do want to try using them a bit more. You don't have to use them together but they do have rules to provide a very effective screen (I do think it's stupid that little skinks can shield rather large Kroxigors but there we go!) but trying to get advice from people who've found effective combinations with them.

huitzilopochtli
13-03-2007, 12:35
Skinks are meant to get killed! thats just part of the old one's plan. individuals dont matter! mwahuahuahuahua! ok thats enough i think. but seriously, dont be worried if a few skinks die because of missile fire. thats their job, and it wont make a great difference to victory points coz they're so cheap.

but can skink skirmishers use their weapons when they march? i thought that you couldnt shoot if they did.

Jonahmaul
13-03-2007, 20:20
No, you can't use their weapons if they march so may be a slow advance forward (although their weapons are fairly short range so would most likely march in the first turn at least)

Goq Gar
14-03-2007, 04:03
;_; you make quetzl sad, he loves skinks

Well, first Id say you'll need more than 45, at least 60 IMO. As mentioned above, javelins with the kroxigors and blowpipes without. Also, against empire, theres a good chance he will have knights, so prepare a little cold-one welcoming party for him. Another Idea might be a few chameleon skinks to take care of any war machines he might have. Chameleons are much, much harder for empire armies to kill, and if anything, that will make them more of a target than anything else, drawing fire away from more important units.

As for your kroxigors and skinks, I would suggest using groups of 4 kroxies with 20 javelin skinks, but you dont have 8 kroxies, so I instead suggest 3 kroxies with 15 javelin skinks, then the rest of your skinks given scouts and blowpipes and sent in to harass his gunline, and if possible, whittle down his combat units.

forgottenlor
14-03-2007, 08:19
Skinks and Kroxigores work wonderfully on the flanks, since you can use the skinks to bain your enemines. They are my two favorite units. I never go without 2 units of skinks and usually go with 2 units of Kroxis

Greyfire
14-03-2007, 19:25
Leaving out our small brethren? Heretic! Oppps.. that's the Empire player in me's response.

But really you should always have a few units of skinks, a couple with scout to hurt your opponents ability to march at the start of the game, and to handle his gun crews. I've charged a helcannon with a unit of ten skinks. The +1 CR for outnumbering really helped me out there. But as long as I kill two crew I hurt his ability to fire a good deal.

Skink screens for kroxies will enable you go get them where you need them to be. Throw in a few aquatic features so that only you can move through them (and get the soft cover bonus vs shooting) and you can really get Empire at a disadvantage. Kroxies can eat up pretty much anything Empire can throw at you in HtH. Even the knights have much of their 1+ armor saves negated when hit by a Str 7 hit. Str 7? :D That means chariots are auto-destroyed too! I love my kroxies. The fear that they cause is just icing for me. Some of the time they are outnumbered, still a failed fear check means only sixes hit. That helps a lot. They've never let me down.

I usually (at 2K) field only one unit of kroxies, four strong with ancient. But that's more to do with me only own four models than a pure strategy choice. I can buy a few of the older models I might add another three to my army.

BTW, one of the best experience I've seen has been around 5 units of skinks moving over a hill and shooting down it needing an auto-wounding 6 to hit, one behind the other. Each one being obliterated by the gun lines but enabling the one behind it to keep doing the same thing, wearing his units down a little each time. My opponent described it as "they just kept coming, no matter how many I kill, they just keep coming". And then the kroxies came to play. It was great fun!

Keep the kroxies with their screen(s) to a flank and run as fast as you can, while you move your main combat force as you need. Once they're in a flank position then they can really hurt the Empire in HtH, either on their own or as a flank charger with your main force. Worse you force your empire player to choose between splitting his fire at the sneaky force or the beefy force getting closer. Just be careful to not present his cannon with a shot that can hurt more than one kroxie at a time. Sometimes (and not on purpose, I'm sure of it) a cannon shot at the skink screen bounces into the kroxies behind it. I'm sure it was just an accident.

But I do miss the skinks ability to move on the double within 8 inches of opponents. :( Back in 6th ed, my skinks would just run around units making them dance in place. They can still dance a little but being restricted to a base move hurts their ability to move, but at least I get to shoot at the end of that move now.

Good luck with the kroxies - I know you'll enjoy them when you start mowing down his units with them.

-=- Greyfire

BTW, a unit of salamanders can really hurt most empire units. Another aquatic unit that moves a foot a turn with a 15" shooting range? It's a portable helblaster when you field three of them! With the nerfing of my Empire helblaster I'm sure they're going to do something similar to my sallies when they redo the book. So be sure to use them while you can. WIth the fast movement of a mostly skink army you can control where the fight takes place at - and I've had the best luck with mostly skink armies for this reason. Except against Chaos - no one can beat Chaos. :( Again, enjoy your games.

Goq Gar
15-03-2007, 04:01
(Kind enough not to quote all of above)

This man speaks wise words!

The lizardmen are not a race with a high population. Saurus spawnings are actually becoming insufficient to replenish the ranks of Lustria's armies. They do not waste saurus on meager tasks, and skinks are sent instead. Use more skinks! THEY are what has protected lustria all these years!

As for the kroxies, make sure they are accompanied by as many skinks as you can spare, and that they number at least 4.

And yes, I have played all skink armies. In fact, because I play 1000-1500 usually, i tend to have many skinks on the board and few saurus if any. There are few things that can withstand that much shooting.

Salamanders are your big brothers, who beat up groups of little bullies when they come to bother you. On an average gaming table, they should be in shooting range by turn 2, then again, your skinks should be in shooting range turn 1 with scouts. Salamanders are one of the most deadly things in your arsenal... to both you AND your opponent. I have a salamander model, nicknamed "MC Hammer". We call him this because MC hammer sung "cant touch this", and it is a bad Idea to poke MC hammer the salamander. He eats every single one of his handlers the first time he fires every game. The only way around this was to put him in a unit of 2 other salamanders so he didnt go bezerk and slaughter my entire army AGAIN. (All skink armies are vulnerable to angry salamanders). So make sure you have a unit of 3 salamanders if you have any at all.

Lastly, when using kroxigors, their saves are rather pathetic. Keep them safe, and thats what skinks are for. Skinks and kroxigors are essentially a unit that can do it all, shoot, fight, destroy big stuff. You should always treat them as one unit, and keep their skinks nearby after the kroxigors charge, and maybe even charge the skinks in to help! XD just kidding, thats suicide no matter how you look at it...

±Goq

Jonahmaul
15-03-2007, 11:17
I'll definately be taking 3 salamanders, i've been playing LM since the army deal came out for them & I think I've only played two games without them that entire time as I do love them (I played another friends empire army once & got 30 shots off with them two turns in a row - he wasn't amused!).

I've got 6 Kroxigor models so do people think I should split into two units of three or take a unit of four & leave the other two at home? Are Ancients really worth taking? I've always thought it a bit of a waste of points as 20 points is 1/3 of another Korxigor.

Sandman - the eternal
15-03-2007, 13:28
NA! its Stegadons you want! go for the big guns!
go for the terror role. in my 2000pt army i have 2 stegadons and a carnosaur! and a couple of small units of cold one riders.

picture lizardmen vs bretonians. more than half his force in a lance formation heading straight at my stegadon. BUT he fails his terror test and his army goes screaming off the board by turn 3! TERROR RULES!

Mchagen
15-03-2007, 15:49
The only way around this was to put him in a unit of 2 other salamanders so he didnt go bezerk and slaughter my entire army AGAIN. (All skink armies are vulnerable to angry salamanders).
±Goq


How does it slaughter your entire army? Nothing on the monster reaction table makes it attack your units. It either goes stupid, stationary-unbreakable, or gets frenzy and charges nearest enemy.

I'm not familiar with 6th edition (I haven't played fantasy since 3rd/4th) so I don't know if the chart has changed.

Jonahmaul
15-03-2007, 16:25
NA! its Stegadons you want! go for the big guns!
go for the terror role. in my 2000pt army i have 2 stegadons and a carnosaur! and a couple of small units of cold one riders.

picture lizardmen vs bretonians. more than half his force in a lance formation heading straight at my stegadon. BUT he fails his terror test and his army goes screaming off the board by turn 3! TERROR RULES!

They've got to fail their terror tests though. I will be taking my Stegadon though as I think they're awesome and with Empire leadership being fairly low I'm sure I can manage to cause a few frights there! Hadn't considered taking my Carnosaur yet but that may well be an option as they're pretty vicious. 2 Stegadon's & a Carnosaur with Cold One Knights seems a bit excessive in 2000 points, how do you afford it, do you have anything else in the army!?

Mchagen
15-03-2007, 16:53
I'm not saying I'd run it, but it's still feasible with loads of skinks. Here's a quick list I put together with the above unit choices.

Saurus Oldblood; Itzl, Quetzl, Sotek [443]
Light Armor, Venom of the Firefly Frog, Maiming shield
Carnosaur

20 Skink [120]
Javelin/Shield

20 Skink [120]
Javelin/Shield

20 Skink [120]
Javelin/Shield

10 Skink; Scout [70]
Blowpipes

10 Skink; Scout [70]
Blowpipes

10 Skink; Scout [70]
Blowpipes

4 Kroxigor [232]

6 Saurus Cavalry; Full Command [285]
Jaguar Standard

Stegadon [235]

Stegadon [235]

2000 points, 113 models.

This one would be very magic vulnerable. So I'd probably tweak it to include some skink priests if I actually wanted to run a 'terror' list. I like carnosaurs but I'm not big on stegadons, so it would be unlikely to hit the table.

Jonahmaul
15-03-2007, 17:41
My comment was aimed at Sandman as he said he does run a list like that but thanks for the list, has given me some ideas as I've never played a list without Saurus before but it could be a possibility as I'm thinking of running quite a quick army with plenty of movement 6 or more stuff.

Mchagen
15-03-2007, 18:32
True. I figured that since he made the suggestion of using three large terror units I'd try to come up with a quick, semi-feasible list. More or less to show that it's possible to balance expensive choices with inexpensive units without loosing too much effectiveness. Which seems to be a boon in the lizardman army.

My comments were mostly directed towards the fact that the list I made was quickly thrown together and would require a bit more planning to be an effective army. I'm sure the list that Sandman had in mind is completely different.

Back to the squad size. Three kroxigor are obviously easier to maneuver but with four you'll probably win most combat resolution inflicting five or six wounds on the charge, so four is probably the better option. With your setup though, I'd go two units of three--it's always nice to use the models you have. Also, I don't think ancients are worth their cost.

Jonahmaul
15-03-2007, 18:40
It certainly seems an effective list, the main downsides to it I can see are that it is magic vulnerable as you have said & also doesn't have any static combat res (apart from the one standard) which is the main thing putting me off doing a completely fast moving army without Saurus in (I also only have one Stegadon).

Mchagen
15-03-2007, 20:04
Reading your other thread LM vs Empire here's a suggestion for an army based on what you have (models) and others have suggested for a balanced force.

Scar-Vet; Huanchi, Sotek [153]
GW, Light Armor, Shield
Charm of the Jaguar
(good for saurus unit pop-out attacks against his cavalry)

Scar-Vet; Iztl [119]
Halberd, Light Armor
Cold One
(obviously would run with cold one unit)

Skink Priest; level 2 [135]
Diadem of Power
(from what I'm reading your opponent won't be too magic heavy so this one should give you decent defense against a light magic phase, otherwise drop sotek on the vet and pick up tepok to help)

20 Saurus; full command [270]
20 Saurus; full command [270]
(gives you some static CR and a leaping point for your vet on foot)

12 Skink; Scouts [84]
Blowpipes

16 Skink [96]
Javelin/Shield

16 Skink [96]
Javelin/Shield
(I'd throw in more skinks but since you said you have 45 I put that amount in the list, more blowpipe scout skinks on his side means you're disrupting his gunline and march moves more but you also need some bait units/screens for your heavy units so it's a difficult balance for what you have)

4 Kroxigor [232]

3 Terradon [105]
(protect flank, harass war machines)

3 Salamander [195]

Stegadon [235]

6 Saurus Cavalry; full command [260]

2250 points, 118 models

Jonahmaul
15-03-2007, 21:19
Thanks for this, this is fairly simlar to what I was thinking of running though I might have couple more magic items and spawnings on the scar-veterans (+1A on charge on a mounted hero i find pretty essential), was also thinking of having 3 scar-veterans, 1 mounted & 2 in Saurus units (possibly with 1 as a battle standard) but will probably be something fairly similar to your list (although probably smaller skink units but more of them)

MarcoPollo
16-03-2007, 21:31
4 kroxigors are good, but 3 is still a fine number to use. The frontage is smaller and this means that you can fit in tighter places. Plus this frees up some points to allocate to other things.

I think the kroxigors are a real threat more than anything and if your opponent is worried about so many highstrength hits, it won't matter if ther is 3 or 4. You won't autobreak a unit full ranked up with just 4 kroxigors, you will break knights and other tin cans with only 3.

him_15
17-03-2007, 21:36
Does anyone know what if the skinks screen in the front get charged first? Would my Kroxigors still be able to charge against that enemy?

Atzcapotzalco
18-03-2007, 02:12
If the skinks are in combat on your turn then no, you wouldn't be able to charge, but when they get wiped out in one turn you'll be able to charge their opponents anyway, and the skinks are expendable. You do have to be careful not to set yourself up to get charged by overrun moves. As far as unit strength goes, I actually often use as many as 5-the extra US is significant, and so is the extra wounds given they are liable to take casualties from missile fire-a size 3 unit loses a lot of its fighting power with even one kroxigor slain, 5 can take a little damage and still fight well.